I'm considering installing a Micro-CHP central heating boiler such as
the AC Whispergen, connected to my domestic electricity supply. I
won't use all the electricity generated at the time the m-chp boiler
generates it, so I will be exporting the excess to the UK grid. Can
anybody tell me the current regulations regarding electricity export,
and Micro-CHP installation in general? Based on web research, my best
guess at the moment is:

- I can install the m-chp boiler for my central heating as long as I
use a Corgi installer for all gas work and the remainder of the heating
system meets the Part L building regulations.

- I'm allowed to connect it to the grid without requiring
authorisation, as long as the equipment conforms to grid connection
standard 'G83/1' and I inform my electricity supplier

- There appears to be no requirement for me to have any
modified/additional metering installed, so any measurement of
electricity export is initially down to my current meter. (This is a
traditional electro-mechanical meter which I think will just run
backwards when exporting.)

- My supplier may decide to install alternative metering, but if they
do then they need to pay for the new meter and the meter installation
costs.

By the way, I realise I could get Powergen to handle the whole thing
with their Whispergen service, but I'm exploring the DIY route first,
not least because I don't want to be tied in to a particular
gas/electricity supplier or m-chp boiler.

- I'm allowed to connect it to the grid without requiring
authorisation, as long as the equipment conforms to grid connection
standard 'G83/1' and I inform my electricity supplier

I wouldn`t like to say on that one, but I thought it was something
like G58 protection. Its not the easiest thing to google for though -
i`ve tried !

Specialist metering may well be required, and speaking as someone
within the industry, I can tell you for certain that Scottish Power's
metering dept. have not come across this type of installation yet, and
have no metering capable of handling the export.

This has been the case for at least ~18 months or so from when I first
heard about the Whispergen (and the other one, for which I forget its
name), before any had been installed in the UK.

I believe United Utilities and one site in the Newcastle area may now
have had these installed in an estate as a trial, but it was with
specialist metering IIRC.

--
--- Please add "newsgroup" in the subject of any personal replies ---
--- My anti-spam address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ---

Colin Wilson wrote:
- I'm allowed to connect it to the grid without requiring
authorisation, as long as the equipment conforms to grid connection
standard 'G83/1' and I inform my electricity supplier

I wouldn`t like to say on that one, but I thought it was something
like G58 protection. Its not the easiest thing to google for though -
i`ve tried !

Specialist metering may well be required, and speaking as someone
within the industry, I can tell you for certain that Scottish Power's
metering dept. have not come across this type of installation yet, and
have no metering capable of handling the export.

This has been the case for at least ~18 months or so from when I first
heard about the Whispergen (and the other one, for which I forget its
name), before any had been installed in the UK.

I believe United Utilities and one site in the Newcastle area may now
have had these installed in an estate as a trial, but it was with
specialist metering IIRC.

Theres always the option of simply 2 meters in series, types that only
turn one way, with them facing in opposite directions. One will read
import, the other export.

Its unlikely to be what your suplier wil eventually decide on, but
since theres no decision meantime this may well be accepted for now,
seeing as they have nothing else set up. I would be upfront about
offering a metering solution suggestion for use in case they have not
yet finanlised their net metering plans. IOW as well as presenting thme
with a problem, youre helping them resolve it, this may make life
easier.


NT

wrote:
Theres always the option of simply 2 meters in series, types that only
turn one way, with them facing in opposite directions. One will read
import, the other export.

Maybe not relevant, because for this type of application they might be
other meters and measuring devices that I don't know about (er, not my
field - guv), but I recently did a little web research into the Model
Type '5196' electronic meter gizmo the supply company installed under
the stairs; mainly to investigate possibilities remote reading of the
device via the IEC 1107 optical port - actually covered in an
electronics magazine (Elektor) article.

This company, Energy Controls http://www.econtrols.co.uk manufactures
a range of electronic meters - the single phase kWh Meter, which do
detect (for the benefit of fraud protection) and measure energy passed
in the export direction. This might be useful to the OP?

--
Adrian C

Thanks for the replies.

Apparently G83/1 was introduced in Sept 2003 specifically aimed at small
scale generators, ie: 16Amp export, as opposed to G59 which remains in
place for larger generators. Micro-CHP seems to range between 1KW and
3KW, and (eg) the Whispergen unit has all the G83/1 certification. No
mention of metering though.

It sounds from the replies as though there are a number of metering
possibilities and export arrangements with the supplier, and it's
certainly not clear cut. What I'm trying to work out though is what my
responsibilities are as opposed to by electricity supplier. In
particular, if I simply inform my supplier that I've installed a G83/1
compliant generator and do nothing else, then am I breaking any
regulations? Or is it entirely at the supplier's discretion and the
regulations simply don't cover this situation (yet)? Obviously I'm
happy to be flexible within reason, but if the supplier comes back with
something like 'we need to install new metering and we'll be sending you
the bill for £500', or 'sorry, but you're in breach of contract by
exporting so stop it or we'll disconnect you' then I want to know where
I stand.

*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

On 19 Feb 2006 05:46:12 -0800 someone who may be "ukdiyuser"
wrote this:-

Can
anybody tell me the current regulations regarding electricity export,
and Micro-CHP installation in general?

I can't. However, it may be worth asking on uk.environment as well.

You might also consider the information from Good Energy at
http://www.good-energy.co.uk/home/33_generation.html and ask them if
they are interested in Micro CHP as part of their scheme. I have no
idea whether they are or not.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"ukdiyuser" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm considering installing a Micro-CHP central heating boiler such as
the AC Whispergen, connected to my domestic electricity supply.

By the way, I realise I could get Powergen to handle the whole thing
with their Whispergen service, but I'm exploring the DIY route first,
not least because I don't want to be tied in to a particular
gas/electricity supplier or m-chp boiler.

Just got the following from Powergen, after requesting some further
information...

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat and
Power unit (micro CHP)
Given the high volume of interest in the WhisperGen we have decided to put
all further orders on hold until January 2007. This is so that we can
negotiate a mass market production contract with a European manufacturer.

Since 2004 we have produced a relatively small number of hand built units.
Recent product developments which improve the WhisperGen's reliability,
coupled with an increasing demand have led us to discussions with a major
manufacturer.
We have listened to our customer's feedback on what they require from the
WhisperGen and we have put these developments in place so we can provide you
with the best product possible.

We can place your details on file and will be in contact when we are in a
position to offer you a mass manufactured model of the WhisperGen,
alternately if your needs are more pressing we can provide you with a range
of condensing energy efficient boilers, which will save you money and come
with a 5 year parts and labour warrantee.

Just got the following from Powergen, after requesting some further
information...

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat and
Power unit (micro CHP)
Given the high volume of interest in the WhisperGen we have decided to put
all further orders on hold until January 2007.

So much for the Powergen option. I guess that explains why I've had no
reply from them as yet to my queries about their Whispergen service.
All the more reason to explore the DIY route.

I spoke to someone else today, and it would appear I am wrong in that
very small generation "is" allowed, but that the "export" is not
accounted for (due to the expense of metering) other than by offering
a small discount based on x number of unit(s) per day.

Oh well, at worst, even if I get no compensation for exporting, I
calculate I should still be saving around £100 a year on the electricity
I can use as I generate it. Plus all the electricity I generate,
whether being used directly by me or being exported to my neighbours, is
environmentally friendly compared to getting it from a power station.

You might also consider the information from Good Energy at
http://www.good-energy.co.uk/home/33_generation.html and ask them if
they are interested in Micro CHP as part of their scheme. I have no
idea whether they are or not.

Interesting idea. I don't think they would regard m-chp as a 'renewable
generator' as I'm still burning gas to create the electricity, but it's
the next best thing so I'll fire off an email to them.

Time to test the water with my electricity supplier as well.

*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

In article ,
"Sparks" writes:

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat and
Power unit (micro CHP)
Given the high volume of interest in the WhisperGen we have decided to put
all further orders on hold until January 2007. This is so that we can
negotiate a mass market production contract with a European manufacturer.

Since 2004 we have produced a relatively small number of hand built units.
Recent product developments which improve the WhisperGen's reliability,
coupled with an increasing demand have led us to discussions with a major
manufacturer.
We have listened to our customer's feedback on what they require from the
WhisperGen and we have put these developments in place so we can provide you
with the best product possible.

We can place your details on file and will be in contact when we are in a
position to offer you a mass manufactured model of the WhisperGen,
alternately if your needs are more pressing we can provide you with a range
of condensing energy efficient boilers, which will save you money and come
with a 5 year parts and labour warrantee.

Oh dear. That sounds like PR department speak for "sorry, the product
was too unreliable and we're currently looking for another manufacturer".

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article , "Sparks"
writes:

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat
and Power unit (micro CHP) Given the high volume of interest in the
WhisperGen we have decided to put all further orders on hold until
January 2007. This is so that we can negotiate a mass market production
contract with a European manufacturer.

Since 2004 we have produced a relatively small number of hand built
units. Recent product developments which improve the WhisperGen's
reliability, coupled with an increasing demand have led us to
discussions with a major manufacturer. We have listened to our
customer's feedback on what they require from the WhisperGen and we have
put these developments in place so we can provide you with the best
product possible.

We can place your details on file and will be in contact when we are in a
position to offer you a mass manufactured model of the WhisperGen,
alternately if your needs are more pressing we can provide you with a
range of condensing energy efficient boilers, which will save you money
and come with a 5 year parts and labour warrantee.

Oh dear. That sounds like PR department speak for "sorry, the product was
too unreliable and we're currently looking for another manufacturer".

Or "Oops they don't match the new 'lead-free' regs and we need to do a
re-design.". There will be a number of such hiccups this year.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Sparks" writes:

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat and
Power unit (micro CHP)
Given the high volume of interest in the WhisperGen we have decided to put
all further orders on hold until January 2007. This is so that we can
negotiate a mass market production contract with a European manufacturer.

Since 2004 we have produced a relatively small number of hand built units.
Recent product developments which improve the WhisperGen's reliability,
coupled with an increasing demand have led us to discussions with a major
manufacturer.
We have listened to our customer's feedback on what they require from the
WhisperGen and we have put these developments in place so we can provide you
with the best product possible.

We can place your details on file and will be in contact when we are in a
position to offer you a mass manufactured model of the WhisperGen,
alternately if your needs are more pressing we can provide you with a range
of condensing energy efficient boilers, which will save you money and come
with a 5 year parts and labour warrantee.

Oh dear. That sounds like PR department speak for "sorry, the product
was too unreliable and we're currently looking for another manufacturer".

yes, and too noisy and too much maintenance. These are exactly the
things one would expect from an engine running in the house for years
on end.


NT

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:05:56 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article , "Sparks"
writes:

Thank you for your recent interest in the WhisperGen micro Combined Heat
and Power unit (micro CHP) Given the high volume of interest in the
WhisperGen we have decided to put all further orders on hold until
January 2007. This is so that we can negotiate a mass market production
contract with a European manufacturer.

Since 2004 we have produced a relatively small number of hand built
units. Recent product developments which improve the WhisperGen's
reliability, coupled with an increasing demand have led us to
discussions with a major manufacturer. We have listened to our
customer's feedback on what they require from the WhisperGen and we have
put these developments in place so we can provide you with the best
product possible.

We can place your details on file and will be in contact when we are in a
position to offer you a mass manufactured model of the WhisperGen,
alternately if your needs are more pressing we can provide you with a
range of condensing energy efficient boilers, which will save you money
and come with a 5 year parts and labour warrantee.

Oh dear. That sounds like PR department speak for "sorry, the product was
too unreliable and we're currently looking for another manufacturer".

Or "Oops they don't match the new 'lead-free' regs and we need to do a
re-design.". There will be a number of such hiccups this year.


Not least of which is that the legislation is a shambles. Again. The
government just about managed to achieve an SI on ROHSS for operation
from July 1st. but with enough exceptions to drive a bus through.
That at least seems to be reasonably harmonised throughout Europe.
Activity on the accompanying recycling directive, WEEE, is a total and
utter mess with huge variations between countries and HMG running
around totally clueless.


--

..andy

On 22 Feb 2006 08:15:55 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

Oh dear. That sounds like PR department speak for "sorry, the product
was too unreliable and we're currently looking for another manufacturer".

It's more a case of WhisperGen having limited production facilities
and rather than expand them, and continue to have the huge costs of
transportation from New Zealand to Europe impact the selling price of
their product, they are, I believe, licensing their design to enable
it to be manufactured more locally in the region/area they will be
sold.





--

On 22 Feb 2006 03:14:32 -0800, wrote:

yes, and too noisy and too much maintenance. These are exactly the
things one would expect from an engine running in the house for years
on end.

While the AC version is significantly noisier than a modern boiler,
careful siting or enclosure design can make this a non-issue. I've
slept within a few feet of a DC version (slightly quieter) on numerous
occasions and despite the total lack of added noise insulation its
never been a problem (some of the sleep was alcohol assisted though!)

I can only vouch for a couple of units I am immediately aware of (both
marine installed DC versions) but maintenance required for around 2500
hours of operation has been very minimal over the past 4 years,
certainly way less than any internal combustion generator on a similar
duty cycle and probably less than a typical gas fired central heating
boiler.

I still think a condensing boiler is a significantly better option for
the majority of households though.




--

wrote:

yes, and too noisy and too much maintenance. These are exactly the
things one would expect from an engine running in the house for years
on end.


NT


That's a little defeatist isn't it? We're not talking about internal
combustion engines here so comparisons with the average car or diesel
generator engine are misleading. A number of large companies with a
great deal of technology expertise are reportedly investing millions of
pounds in developing this technology, so they clearly don't share your view.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Andy Hall wrote:

Not least of which is that the legislation is a shambles. Again. The
government just about managed to achieve an SI on ROHSS for operation
from July 1st. but with enough exceptions to drive a bus through.
That at least seems to be reasonably harmonised throughout Europe.
Activity on the accompanying recycling directive, WEEE, is a total and
utter mess with huge variations between countries and HMG running
around totally clueless.


The UK government certainly seem to be tentative about going all out to
support this technology, but they don't appear to be actively blocking
it either. Purchase of Micro-CHP boilers is now covered by 5% 'green
purchase' VAT, and the G83 grid connection standard now makes it easy to
connect small scale generator equipment like this in parallel with the
domestic supply. However one thing they've failed to do so far is to
provide any regulation for electricity export to the grid.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:05:07 +0000 Ukdiyuser wrote :
The UK government certainly seem to be tentative about going all out to
support this technology, but they don't appear to be actively blocking
it either. Purchase of Micro-CHP boilers is now covered by 5% 'green
purchase' VAT, and the G83 grid connection standard now makes it easy to
connect small scale generator equipment like this in parallel with the
domestic supply. However one thing they've failed to do so far is to
provide any regulation for electricity export to the grid.

The new Part L Building Regulations and SAP-2005 explicitly cover them too
- I'm still trying to get my head round the equations.

The practical bit of this I don't understand is that someone I know who
worked in power generation said a long time ago about needing to get power
station generators up to exactly the right speed before connecting them
into the grid as if the frequencies weren't matched 'bad things' happened
- I don't remember the details. So is this handled if you are generating
your own electricity via Microgen or PV panel and wanting to export it?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:

The new Part L Building Regulations and SAP-2005 explicitly cover them too
- I'm still trying to get my head round the equations.

The practical bit of this I don't understand is that someone I know who
worked in power generation said a long time ago about needing to get power
station generators up to exactly the right speed before connecting them
into the grid as if the frequencies weren't matched 'bad things' happened
- I don't remember the details. So is this handled if you are generating
your own electricity via Microgen or PV panel and wanting to export it?

The associated electronics for the generator will be keeping it
in sync with the mains. Actually, this is such a key part of the
design that a number of these generators cannot operate in the
absence of a working mains supply (so they are not suitable
as a backup generator). If you want to use the boiler for this
purpose, do make sure it is capable (and you need extra protection
to prevent backfeeding a dead supply network).

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:23:13 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

The practical bit of this I don't understand is that someone I know who
worked in power generation said a long time ago about needing to get power
station generators up to exactly the right speed before connecting them
into the grid as if the frequencies weren't matched 'bad things' happened
- I don't remember the details.

All the alternators connected to the grid are synchronised so they
rotate together. If they did not then currents would flow between
them and the system collapse. If an unsynchronised alternator is
connected to the grid then the other alternators will effectively
force it to synchronise. If the newly connected alternator (and any
mechanical equipment connected to it) can synchronise quickly enough
there will just be some electrical disturbance. If it cannot
synchronise quickly enough it will suffer damage, probably severe in
nature.

DC links are used to join two unsynchronised grids.

So is this handled if you are generating
your own electricity via Microgen or PV panel and wanting to export it?

Electronics.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54