On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:58:28 GMT, Simon Avery wrote:

Never had a single outage on my mobile in that time (apart from no
signal in some valleys, which considering where I live is to be
expected).

And what is the voice quality like on your mobile compared to the BT
line? Oh and of course you get can get a "56k" data connection on our
mobile as well...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

Never had a single outage on my mobile in that time (apart
from no signal in some valleys, which considering where I
live is to be expected).
DL| And what is the voice quality like on your mobile compared
DL| to the BT line?

"Acceptible", compared to "Nothing" on the BT line...

DL| Oh and of course you get can get a "56k"
DL| data connection on our mobile as well...

G3 seems to offer considerably more than 56k, but pricing is a bugger.

BTW, serious moaning resulting in BT turning out next day. Fault was
overhead cable damage on wire that was supposed to be replaced last
March, but they only did half of it. Engineer switched me to the last
working copper pair in the bundle - next time it goes I'm out for
ages, and I have a sneaky suspicion they'll simply refuse me isdn
access rather than replace the cable, since a few pops and whistles on
analogue is neither here nor there.

Which is the big single drawback on wired networks - replacing of
damaged wiring. Whether it's buried in plaster or hanging from poles,
it's expensive and time consuming to fix.

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more than
landline? Surely landlines require much larger initial investment, but
running costs must be fairly similar?

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:42:19 GMT, Simon Avery wrote:

Fault was overhead cable damage on wire that was supposed to be
replaced last March, but they only did half of it. Engineer switched
me to the last working copper pair in the bundle - next time it goes
I'm out for ages, ...

Don't forget the compenstation, but be aware that if you take the free
divert offer you effectively remove that.

It does seems like a good time to get "Total Care", 24/7 fault
repairs, someone working on it inside 4hrs. When I spoke to the last
engineer I saw fixing the ISDN here I asked if the "someone working on
it inside 4hrs" meant that if the fault was underground that would be
reported and you'd just join the queue, all be it at the top to be
fixed in normal working hours. The answer was no, they would call some
out to work on it any time of the day/night, 365 days a year.

Cost? Around =A311.64/qtr inc VAT.

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/c...nce.boo/0201.h
tm

... and I have a sneaky suspicion they'll simply refuse me isdn
access rather than replace the cable, since a few pops and whistles
on analogue is neither here nor there.

Assuming you are within range of the exchange for ISDN (approx 6km as
the cable flies) I think they would have a damn good try at providing
it.

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more than
landline? Surely landlines require much larger initial investment,
but running costs must be fairly similar?

Short/medium termisium profit margins and the licence system. You have
to make a profit within the licence period incase you don't get the
licenec next time.

There are an awful lot of base stations and the don't come cheap, even
compared to digging a trench and putting in a cable. Also remember
that apart from new build most of the country was wired up donkeys
years ago and when they put in a cable they put in substantial over
capacity. Ordinary drop wires where 1 pair (the really old figure of 8
stuff), 3 pair now and I've heard of 6 pair being laid underground as
standard to new single domestic properties.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Simon Avery wrote:
Which is the big single drawback on wired networks - replacing of
damaged wiring. Whether it's buried in plaster or hanging from poles,
it's expensive and time consuming to fix.

Properly installed domestic wiring is very unlikely to suffer damage. I
*know* some have suffered rodent damage, but it's pretty rare. Overhead
wiring is something else - but then it's done like that for cheapness, not
reliability.

Also, wonder why the mobile phone companies link to their base stations
with cables if RF has such advantages?

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more than
landline? Surely landlines require much larger initial investment, but
running costs must be fairly similar?

Supply and demand. The average punter expects to pay more for mobile
running costs. That and the huge sums paid out for licences, and the ever
hopeful introduction of new 'improved' technology that they pray we'll pay
for.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Simon Avery" wrote
| Engineer switched me to the last working copper pair in the bundle
| - next time it goes I'm out for ages, and I have a sneaky suspicion
| they'll simply refuse me isdn access rather than replace the cable,
| since a few pops and whistles on analogue is neither here nor there.

If the last working copper pair in the bundle goes, they'll probably DACS
your line onto a neighbours. This will limit you (and them) to 33.6 modem
speed, which ironically might be a better connection.

ISDN, being digital and also running on a higher line voltage (100V rather
than 50V I think), should be more robust over some types of cable fault.

Owain

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

Fault was overhead cable damage on wire that was supposed
to be replaced last March, but they only did half of it.
Engineer switched me to the last working copper pair in
the bundle - next time it goes I'm out for ages, ...

DL| Don't forget the compenstation, but be aware that if you
DL| take the free divert offer you effectively remove that.

I thought that this had recently been withdrawn on residential lines
unless it gets something silly? (I could ask my telecomms lawyer, but
she's asleep atm )

DL| It does seems like a good time to get "Total Care", 24/7
DL| fault repairs, someone working on it inside 4hrs. When I
DL| spoke to the last engineer I saw fixing the ISDN here I
DL| asked if the "someone working on it inside 4hrs" meant that
DL| if the fault was underground that would be reported and
DL| you'd just join the queue, all be it at the top to be fixed
DL| in normal working hours. The answer was no, they would call
DL| some out to work on it any time of the day/night, 365 days a
DL| year.
DL| Cost? Around £11.64/qtr inc VAT.
DL| http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/c...cs/Maintenance.
DL| boo/0201.h tm

Thanks, this is indeed interesting and looks like it could well be
worthwhile. Getting rather fed up with being fobbed off, thanks again.

... and I have a sneaky suspicion they'll simply refuse me
isdn access rather than replace the cable, since a few
pops and whistles on analogue is neither here nor there.
DL| Assuming you are within range of the exchange for ISDN
DL| (approx 6km as the cable flies) I think they would have a
DL| damn good try at providing it.

I already have it, despite being a nadge over 7km according to a
pingtest. I guess this is why it's proving temperamental - six
failures in three years; the slightest fault that would be unnoticable
on a PSTN line dumps me completely.

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more
than landline? Surely landlines require much larger
initial investment, but running costs must be fairly
similar?
DL| Short/medium termisium profit margins and the licence
DL| system. You have to make a profit within the licence period
DL| incase you don't get the licenec next time.

But the major players are pretty much guaranteed a licence. Unless
they do something absurdly silly, Oftel wouldn't appreciate the abuse
they'd receive if several hundred thousand subscribers suddenly had to
search for a new provider.

DL| There are an awful lot of base stations and the don't come
DL| cheap, even compared to digging a trench and putting in a
DL| cable.

Don't know the costs, but I'd be awfully surprised if that was the
case. One transmitter can serve several square miles of subscribers
and can be erected and connected VERY fast (From purchase to signal in
a week or less) - compare that to having to prepwire, concentrators,
wayleaves, numerous visits to every house so they're in when they said
they would be.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

Dave Plowman wrote:

Hello Dave

Which is the big single drawback on wired networks -
replacing of damaged wiring. Whether it's buried in
plaster or hanging from poles, it's expensive and time
consuming to fix.
DP| Properly installed domestic wiring is very unlikely to
DP| suffer damage. I *know* some have suffered rodent damage,
DP| but it's pretty rare. Overhead wiring is something else -
DP| but then it's done like that for cheapness, not reliability.

I think there's also an element of "It's always been done that way".
RF is still in its infancy as a high bandwidth solution, imo. What
we've got now /works/, but not as well as it'll work in ten years
time.

DP| Also, wonder why the mobile phone companies link to their
DP| base stations with cables if RF has such advantages?

They do? I understood that they also used microwave links in LOS
situations. I don't recall any major cabling works going on when they
erected one nearby, other than putting in power - though I suppose
they could've run in comms at the same time. It certainly has two
microwave dishes on it, but that might be rented out to someone else.

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more
than landline? Surely landlines require much larger
initial investment, but running costs must be fairly
similar?
DP| Supply and demand. The average punter expects to pay more
DP| for mobile running costs. That and the huge sums paid out
DP| for licences, and the ever hopeful introduction of new
DP| 'improved' technology that they pray we'll pay
DP| for.

I think the 3G fiasco isn't going to be repeated, caused serious
financial problems within the sector. The new stuff, well, doesn't
really appeal to me - unless I can use it as alternative high
bandwidth internet access when my main link goes down.
Like the majority, I want my phone to be a phone, not a camera or PDA.
That's useful for some folks, but not for me.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

"Zymurgy" wrote in message
om...
How ?!

Chasing the wall out is the easy bit (SDS gouge !) but do I put into
thin conduit (there's about 6 wired to get in) and plaster over, how
do I keep in place whilst I plaster ?

Any help appeeciated.

Thanks

Paul.

Jumping it at the top of the thread again :-)
On the subject of 'wired' vs. 'wireless'.

Nobody so far seems to have mentioned DECT phones.
I would be interested in the case that 'plug in the wall' phones are 'always
better' that DECT phones.

To me the argument is very similar - do you want to run phone extensions to
every room then have to stand by the socket, or would you like to take your
phone everywhere with you (including in the garden and perhaps even next
door).

Not quite the same because extra handsets cut into the maximum REN on the
line, but for useability the comparison is pretty close.

Cheers
Dave R

"Owain" wrote:

Hello Owain

O| If the last working copper pair in the bundle goes, they'll
O| probably DACS your line onto a neighbours. This will limit
O| you (and them) to 33.6 modem speed, which ironically might
O| be a better connection.

Nah. I still have a DACS unit in the loft from their first attempt,
since then they had no spare pairs at all. (And it throttles at
28.8kbps, unable to connect at 33.6 - same at a previous house when I
had it) That was replaced by HH, which provides two lines over one
pair.

What I /think/ they're doing is swapping my pair with my neighbours
(who are all PSTN) so they get the crap ones but don't notice, and I
get the best pair for my HH. Either that or there's some very odd
wiring gone on. (3km from village concentrator, last half has been
recabled this year, only me and my two neighbours on the last km)

Still, I'm providing a service to them. Lots of their engineers are
experiencing a lovely little valley they'd otherwise never get to see.


--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:52:07 GMT, Simon Avery wrote:

I thought that this had recently been withdrawn on residential lines
unless it gets something silly? (I could ask my telecomms lawyer,
but she's asleep atm )

They may well have changed the rules again. At one time residential
compenstation was 1 months rental per day of service loss after the
end of the next normal working day that the fault was reported or
something very similar. They then brought in the free divert and
reduced the compensation to minimal or non-existant if you took the
free divert. If the divert was to a mobile I think you got/get around
a fiver to pay for out going calls/voice mail pickup etc.

I already have it, despite being a nadge over 7km according to a
pingtest. I guess this is why it's proving temperamental - six
failures in three years;

That failure rate is about the level my ISDN line is running at, we
are 3.5km from the exchange. Most of the faults are with the bit of
damp string under the ground. Last time they swapped the pairs for the
POTS and ISDN lines, guess which one fails now...

the slightest fault that would be unnoticable on a PSTN line dumps
me completely.

Occasionally a "reset" sent by the 154 (your ISDN is classed as
Business isn't it?) faults operator would sort mine out.

But the major players are pretty much guaranteed a licence. Unless
they do something absurdly silly, Oftel wouldn't appreciate the
abuse they'd receive if several hundred thousand subscribers
suddenly had to search for a new provider.

Existing customer base would be very valuable to the incoming licence
holder. As far as the user is concerned it would be a seamless
transfer, things might change after transfer with tarrifs etc but
users would not be simply dumped.

compare that to having to prepwire, concentrators, wayleaves,
numerous visits to every house so they're in when they said
they would be.

For a new player trying to provide "the last mile" yes. Which is why
no one has done it, they all rent "the last mile" from BT who,
generally speaking, has wire almost everywhere.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:01:30 GMT, Simon Avery wrote:

Still, I'm providing a service to them. Lots of their engineers are
experiencing a lovely little valley they'd otherwise never get to
see.

Lots? There are only two maybe three that come out this far. I'm
getting to know them quite well...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:32:18 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Didn't think they where allowed to climb poles in the dark for
ordinary customers, Total Care or not. Maybe the street lighting is
good where you are.

He probably just wanted to get it done! It's a bus route, feeding the
railway station, in a smallish town. I know the day we moved in, we had
trouble sleeping due to streetlights and no curtains. So he was probably
OK.

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:26:18 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



Occasionally a "reset" sent by the 154 (your ISDN is classed as
Business isn't it?) faults operator would sort mine out.

AIUI, standard ISDN2e lines are classified with business service (at
the line rental they charge, I would hope so). Highway lines can be
either residential or business.

Line cards locking up seems a perennial problem. At one time, one or
other of my ISDN circuits would need a reset about once a month.
More recently it hasn't been so bad so I assume they fixed or replaced
them.



But the major players are pretty much guaranteed a licence. Unless
they do something absurdly silly, Oftel wouldn't appreciate the
abuse they'd receive if several hundred thousand subscribers
suddenly had to search for a new provider.

Existing customer base would be very valuable to the incoming licence
holder. As far as the user is concerned it would be a seamless
transfer, things might change after transfer with tarrifs etc but
users would not be simply dumped.

compare that to having to prepwire, concentrators, wayleaves,
numerous visits to every house so they're in when they said
they would be.

For a new player trying to provide "the last mile" yes. Which is why
no one has done it, they all rent "the last mile" from BT who,
generally speaking, has wire almost everywhere.

There are the cable TV operators, of course, but they seem to be
genetically incapable of providing a reliable telecomms service
especially to businesses.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:32:18 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 24 Aug 2003 14:54:56 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Engineeer arrived at 2130 (dark by now).
snip
He git out his ladder, his torch and his tools, went off up
the road, got to the top of the pole and fixed the broken wire.

Didn't think they where allowed to climb poles in the dark for
ordinary customers, Total Care or not. Maybe the street lighting is
good where you are. When it goes dark here it really is dark. Can't
see your hand in front of your face until it hits your nose dark, even
then you can't see it. Great for star gazing, aurora watching, cloud
cover permitting though. B-)


I thought that you were above the clouds and had to have oxygen
brought in... :-)

Do you not see the lights of Newcastle or Carlisle in the distance?

Is aurora visibility frequent where you are? I've seen them in
Norway and Sweden quite often, but never in the UK.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:46:40 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote:

In message ,
"David W.E. Roberts" wrote:


"Zymurgy" wrote in message
om...
How ?!

Chasing the wall out is the easy bit (SDS gouge !) but do I put into
thin conduit (there's about 6 wired to get in) and plaster over, how
do I keep in place whilst I plaster ?

Any help appeeciated.

Thanks

Paul.

Jumping it at the top of the thread again :-)
On the subject of 'wired' vs. 'wireless'.

Nobody so far seems to have mentioned DECT phones.
I would be interested in the case that 'plug in the wall' phones are 'always
better' that DECT phones.

To me the argument is very similar - do you want to run phone extensions to
every room then have to stand by the socket, or would you like to take your
phone everywhere with you (including in the garden and perhaps even next
door).

Not quite the same because extra handsets cut into the maximum REN on the
line, but for useability the comparison is pretty close.


Well, just my 2p, but yes, running a cable is time consuming, especially
if like me you put a socket in every room except the bathroom :-)
and of course you can't take a wired phone up the garden, but...

1: REN is much less of an issue these days because most phones
seem to be less than 1 REN even though they may be marked 1 REN. I have
had five ordinary phones, one minicom and one computer modem attached
together, and never had any ringing problems. Might be helped by the
fact that I use master sockets throughout rather than extensions?

2: There is just no comparison in the quality of the signal. I have all
wired phones in my house, some of them cheapy-cheapy jobs, but the sound
quality on them is vastly better than from any of the DECT phones my
friends own - expensive or not so. In ideal conditions it doesn't make
much difference, but when there's a noisy 2-year-old in the background
it can make all the difference.

2a: (related) DECT phones aren't much good for hearing-aid users (they
have similar problems with some mobile phones). The earpieces aren't
designed to make use of the aid's microphone(s) and when the aid is
switched to "T" (the induction loop setting which works fine with 99% of
cheap phones) the aid can suffer dreadfully from RF pickup ("bzzzzt
bzzzzt bzzzzt" noises).

3: Don't (some?) DECT phones work on the same frequencies as... erm...
wireless networks? Wireless security systems? Wireless remote control
systems? Wireless video senders? In the fully-wireless house, isn't
there great scope for interference which, even if it doesn't result in
lost data, may result in poor performance (slow, short distance)?

4: Isn't there a limited number of discrete channels available to a DECT
phone (16?) What happens if everyone in your cul-de-sac has DECT phones?
Oh, I forgot, they only work reliably up to about 50m ;-)

5: If I carried a phone around in my pocket/on my belt all the time I'd
sit on it, or drop it or otherwise mutilate it, and it'd never get
charged, so it'd have to live on the cradle anyway which makes it hardly
any more convenient than a wired phone!

6: The clincher for me three years ago when I wired the house (less of
an issue now) was the difference between the cost of 2 or 3 DECT
handsets (1 each and a spare) and 5 ordinary telephones plus associated
cabling. The hidden cost, of course, was the weekend it took to complete
the wiring.

6a: (related) it's only tiny, but DECT phones are yet another
wall-wart-waste-of-heat - and therefore electricity.

Hwyl!

M.
Sorry, I cannot agree with all above although I suspect that hard
wired phones are more reliable.
Dect phones can easily be used for in-house calls while the
loudspeaker facility helps the hard of hearing - at the cost of
everyone nearby hearing both sides of the conversation.
Also, it is easy for the DECT phones to communicate with a matching
base station which is an answerphone BUT in my experience they stop
making/selling matching answerphones/DECT phones after a relatively
short period (3/4 years for Philips?).
And I certainly find a DECT phone useful when someone rings me
when I am up in the loft or up a ladder outside.

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:46:40 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote:


1: REN is much less of an issue these days because most phones
seem to be less than 1 REN even though they may be marked 1 REN. I have
had five ordinary phones, one minicom and one computer modem attached
together, and never had any ringing problems. Might be helped by the
fact that I use master sockets throughout rather than extensions?

That will make no practical difference.

2: There is just no comparison in the quality of the signal. I have all
wired phones in my house, some of them cheapy-cheapy jobs, but the sound
quality on them is vastly better than from any of the DECT phones my
friends own - expensive or not so.

Others experience might be different. Certainly I can detect no
difference in the sound quality or volume between my DECT and normal
phones. However some DECT phones are smaller than conventional ones
and positioning them is (as with mobile phones) more critical than
with most wired phones. Some Phillips DECT phones do appear to have
low volume levels (but so do some wired phones).

2a: (related) DECT phones aren't much good for hearing-aid users (they
have similar problems with some mobile phones). The earpieces aren't
designed to make use of the aid's microphone(s) and when the aid is
switched to "T" (the induction loop setting which works fine with 99% of
cheap phones) the aid can suffer dreadfully from RF pickup ("bzzzzt
bzzzzt bzzzzt" noises).

There are (rare) DECT phones designed for hearing aid users.
Alternatively you can use one of the many DECT phones with a headset
socket and something like the Plantronics M130 headset which works
with induction loop hearing aids.

3: Don't (some?) DECT phones work on the same frequencies as... erm...
wireless networks? Wireless security systems? Wireless remote control
systems? Wireless video senders?

No, DECT operates on the 1880-1900 MHz frequency band. Wireless
network, video senders etc work mainly at 2400MHz. Alarms use a
number of frequencies mainly in the 400 and 800MHz region.

4: Isn't there a limited number of discrete channels available to a DECT
phone (16?) What happens if everyone in your cul-de-sac has DECT phones?
Oh, I forgot, they only work reliably up to about 50m ;-)

Mine happily work to 70m, but interference is never likely to be a
problem. DECT uses Time Division Multiple Access and has 10
available carriers. There are 24 time slots available (12 in each
direction) within each 10ms frame. DECT uses dynamic channel
selection to minimise interference. Channel assignment is done by
finding the lest interfered channel and channel reassignment can
take place during a call. Effectively 120 dynamically allocated
duplex channels are available to any DECT device. This gives a
potential traffic density of about 10000 users per km 2 without the
need for frequency planning.

5: If I carried a phone around in my pocket/on my belt all the time I'd
sit on it, or drop it or otherwise mutilate it, and it'd never get
charged, so it'd have to live on the cradle anyway which makes it hardly
any more convenient than a wired phone!

DECT phones are quite low power, mine usually go all day off the
charge cradle and with several hours use a day battery life is never
an issue. 10 hours talk or 120 hours standby are fairly typical.
Finding the phone sometimes is an issue :-) they all migrate to one
place which is always the other end of the building from where you
are when the phone rings.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

Still, I'm providing a service to them. Lots of their
engineers are experiencing a lovely little valley they'd
otherwise never get to see.
DL| Lots? There are only two maybe three that come out this far.
DL| I'm getting to know them quite well...

Yeah, apart from one old guy who really knew the system well[1] and
visited us twice, we've never had the same guy again.

--
[1] His first words were "It won't work y'know, there ain't enough
cables up there." He were right, too.

Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:57:43 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:32:18 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 24 Aug 2003 14:54:56 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Engineeer arrived at 2130 (dark by now).
snip
He git out his ladder, his torch and his tools, went off up
the road, got to the top of the pole and fixed the broken wire.

Didn't think they where allowed to climb poles in the dark for
ordinary customers, Total Care or not. Maybe the street lighting is
good where you are. When it goes dark here it really is dark. Can't
see your hand in front of your face until it hits your nose dark, even
then you can't see it. Great for star gazing, aurora watching, cloud
cover permitting though. B-)


I thought that you were above the clouds and had to have oxygen
brought in... :-)

Do you not see the lights of Newcastle or Carlisle in the distance?

Probably not from East Kent...!
--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:57:43 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

I thought that you were above the clouds ...

Pretty well where this morning hill fog hanging down in the valley but
extending a just above us.

... and had to have oxygen brought in... :-)

We are only at 1400' not 14,000.

Do you not see the lights of Newcastle or Carlisle in the distance?

Not directly. B-) Depending on conditions there can be quite a glow
to the East from Newcastle, 40 miles away, 20 to 30 degrees wide but
keeping fairly low to the horizon. Not normally aware of Carlisle (20
miles) but did see that glow the other night.

Given a good clear night and no moon the viewing is pretty good, Milky
Way is just there you don't have to look for it. One day I may well
get a small telescope, now if the kids get interested I have hook to
hang the purchase on... Trouble is at 1400', under clear dark skies,
it gets pretty nippy. Summer is not a good time, it never gets really
dark.

Is aurora visibility frequent where you are?

Been here since Jan 99, seen 3 maybe 4 displays. Cloud is the big
killer, I keep an eye on the various Aurora sites and know when the
activity is high enough that I should be able to see something if the
piggin cloud wasn't there. Probably missed an equal number of clouded
out displays. B-(

I've seen them in Norway and Sweden quite often, but never in the
UK.

Going to a place to observe the Aurora under dark skies is on the list
of "things I must do" along with "visit an erupting volcano", "storm
chasing in the Mid West US" etc

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:00:39 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



I've seen them in Norway and Sweden quite often, but never in the
UK.

Going to a place to observe the Aurora under dark skies is on the list
of "things I must do" along with "visit an erupting volcano", "storm
chasing in the Mid West US" etc

If you like unusual experiences you might like to look at
http://www.icehotel.com

I recommend it and have seen brilliant aurora displays there.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

David W.E. Roberts wrote:

"Zymurgy" wrote in message
om...

How ?!

Chasing the wall out is the easy bit (SDS gouge !) but do I put into
thin conduit (there's about 6 wired to get in) and plaster over, how
do I keep in place whilst I plaster ?

Any help appeeciated.

Thanks

Paul.


Jumping it at the top of the thread again :-)
On the subject of 'wired' vs. 'wireless'.

Nobody so far seems to have mentioned DECT phones.
I would be interested in the case that 'plug in the wall' phones are 'always
better' that DECT phones.

To me the argument is very similar - do you want to run phone extensions to
every room then have to stand by the socket, or would you like to take your
phone everywhere with you (including in the garden and perhaps even next
door).


Yes, and use DECT as a last resort .



Not quite the same because extra handsets cut into the maximum REN on the
line, but for useability the comparison is pretty close.

Cheers
Dave R

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:48:32 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

If you like unusual experiences you might like to look at
http://www.icehotel.com

I recommend it and have seen brilliant aurora displays there.

I'd forgotten about that place. Yes, that would be a a two birds with
one stone trip with a bit of luck.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

I already have it, despite being a nadge over 7km
according to a pingtest. I guess this is why it's proving
temperamental - six failures in three years;
DL| That failure rate is about the level my ISDN line is running
DL| at, we are 3.5km from the exchange. Most of the faults are
DL| with the bit of damp string under the ground. Last time they

Mine seem to be wire breakdowns or bad connections. The HH box failed
as well after a year.

DL| swapped the pairs for the POTS and ISDN lines, guess which
DL| one fails now...

You've got pots and HH? 3 lines?

the slightest fault that would be unnoticable on a PSTN
line dumps me completely.
DL| Occasionally a "reset" sent by the 154 (your ISDN is classed
DL| as Business isn't it?) faults operator would sort mine out.

We call 154 for reports, yeh, but their software tends to proclaim the
fault is in our house, which it rarely is. And with dodgy wiring a
reset prolly won't help us.

compare that to having to prepwire, concentrators,
wayleaves, numerous visits to every house so they're in
when they said they would be.
DL| For a new player trying to provide "the last mile" yes.
DL| Which is why no one has done it, they all rent "the last
DL| mile" from BT who, generally speaking, has wire almost
DL| everywhere.

True. LLU was really hated by BT.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

DL| Didn't think they where allowed to climb poles in the dark
DL| for ordinary customers, Total Care or not. Maybe the street

I've worked alongside BT and Electrical guys working up poles in
darkness during bad storms. Might have changed recently, but they
didn't used to be bothered, in fact they were all pretty happy
thinking about the overtime.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:57:23 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:48:32 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

If you like unusual experiences you might like to look at
http://www.icehotel.com

I recommend it and have seen brilliant aurora displays there.

I'd forgotten about that place. Yes, that would be a a two birds with
one stone trip with a bit of luck.

I went in February four years ago. Brilliant fun, especially the
snowmobiling on the river bed. Temperatures were an average of -40
degrees but the trick was to dress appropriately to avoid getting too
hot. Although the days in terms of sunrise to sunset were quite
short at that time of year, the snow reflects what little light there
is very effectively and adds a couple of hours to each end of the day.

They have a bar made of ice, of course, with a door shaped like an
Absolut Vodka bottle. The drinks are served in drilled out blocks of
ice. The temperature inside never drops below -5 so you can sit in
there comfortably with a couple of sweaters.

The reindeer, which is supplied by Sami people who come into the area
is absolutely outstanding.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:47:21 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

AIUI, standard ISDN2e lines are classified with business service (at
the line rental they charge, I would hope so).

You could get ISDN on residential if you really wanted it. However the
rental was the same but the terms where residental, so slower response
to faults, lower compenstation.

Highway lines can be either residential or business.

With different offerings depending on the srevice. No MSN on Home
Highway for example.

There are the cable TV operators, of course, but they seem to be
genetically incapable of providing a reliable telecomms service
especially to businesses.

And only put the cable in where they feel they might get a chance of
any return. *All* of the country has a cable company holding the
franchise for a given area but only the urban/densely populated areas
actually get to see any service.

A couple of years ago there was talk of fibre being laid between here
and Penrith. The cable franchise holder said they would cable the town
for free if the link was provided. Note the town, not the two villages
of Nenthead or Garrigill or all the outlying farms/houses.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In message ,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:26:18 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



Occasionally a "reset" sent by the 154 (your ISDN is classed as
Business isn't it?) faults operator would sort mine out.

AIUI, standard ISDN2e lines are classified with business service (at
the line rental they charge, I would hope so). Highway lines can be
either residential or business.

Line cards locking up seems a perennial problem. At one time, one or
other of my ISDN circuits would need a reset about once a month.
More recently it hasn't been so bad so I assume they fixed or replaced
them.



Don't know if this is still relevant, but six or seven years ago we
began using a lot of ISDN2 (and later 2e) circuits at the radio station.
Some lines seemed to be very prone to lockup, and at first BT claimed
that it was a problem with an early generation card at their end.
Eventually all the cards were changed/updated but the problem never
completely went away. Later on we started using Cabletel (now NTL) ISDN
where that was available because it was literally half the cost. We had
similar problems there, even though they claimed to be using different
equipment to BT.

We/they traced it to the way the circuits were used. If we had a piece
of ISDN equipment permanently attached and powered up, even if not
actually on-line, everything was (usually) ok, but lines where the
equipment was left powered down for lengths of time or was unplugged for
maybe a fortnight at a time had occasional lockup problems.

Since some of these lines were at sports grounds there was no way we
were going to leave equipment permanently attached. In this case the
solution was to phone a few days before an important match and get
BT/NTL to reboot the card remotely - something they were usually quite
happy to do.

The problem got better, but never disappeared, at least not in my time
there.

Don't know if it's related, but I thought it was a story worth tellig
anyway :-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
.... "I say we nuke the site from Orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:57:32 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:47:21 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

AIUI, standard ISDN2e lines are classified with business service (at
the line rental they charge, I would hope so).

You could get ISDN on residential if you really wanted it. However the
rental was the same but the terms where residental, so slower response
to faults, lower compenstation.

Highway lines can be either residential or business.

With different offerings depending on the srevice. No MSN on Home
Highway for example.

Ah yes, I remember that now - it's been a while since I added the last
one - I remember that being one of the reasons. It's a cost
effective way of having a selection of numbers for business purposes
and also so that the kids can have their own phone numbers.

Also, IIRC, ISDN2e allows things like call divert at the exchange,
which my PABX will do, whereas HH I believe won't. My rationale in
having one line as a Highway line was that you do at least get one
working analogue phone connection for use if the power fails.


There are the cable TV operators, of course, but they seem to be
genetically incapable of providing a reliable telecomms service
especially to businesses.

And only put the cable in where they feel they might get a chance of
any return. *All* of the country has a cable company holding the
franchise for a given area but only the urban/densely populated areas
actually get to see any service.

A couple of years ago there was talk of fibre being laid between here
and Penrith. The cable franchise holder said they would cable the town
for free if the link was provided. Note the town, not the two villages
of Nenthead or Garrigill or all the outlying farms/houses.

It's a pity that Oftel etc. don't put conditions in their licenses
requiring them to provide a more widely available service rather than
cherry picking.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Simon Avery wrote:

Here's a question; Why do mobile phone charges cost more than
landline? Surely landlines require much larger initial investment, but
running costs must be fairly similar?

The landline networks were already built, the mobile companies are still
paying for their networks and licences.

The phones themselves are heavily subsidised.

Each base station has a limited capacity (far lower than that of a
telephone exchange) so you need more of them to cover a certain area.

If you were starting from scratch then arguably mobile would be cheaper.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

Hello Dave

You've got pots and HH? 3 lines?
DL| No. I've got 1 POTS and 1 ISDN2e, with 8 MSNs, total of 9
DL| numbers and the possibilty of 3 simultaneous calls.

Ah, gotcha. Looked at that, but it was a bit pricey for my needs - my
work doesn't need more than one number. HH was attractively priced at
the time (50ukp install) and compared to dialup it's fantastic. I ran
a 64k and 56k BBS off it using a Courier I-Modem for a while too.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/