"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
The truth is that fuel consumption testing hasn't (yet) caught up with
hybrids.

Yup. Something which
anyone who reads real world tests

Like that 23mpg you read. What was amazing was that you kept saying it is
right.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bioboffin wrote:
They all have them. Ford have the Escape already on sale. The Lexus
is too. GM, Ford, Nissan, etc are all bringing them out pretty soon
and nearly all using the Toyota power splitter arrangement. Toyota
say in about 4 years every model will have a hybrid equivallent. In
a few years time the batteries will be larger, and cheaper, and hold
more energy too, giving about 60 to 100 miles battery range with
option of grid charging or leaving it to the petrol motor.

Thanks for the reply. You are certainly an enthusiastic advocate for the
marque.

I don't live in London, so it may take a few more years to recover the
intial costs.

Unless you do mainly town driving - and in very heavy traffic - where the
lack of an idling IC engine improves matters, you never will.

snip drivelling misinformation

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bioboffin wrote:
The good news is that Toyota (and a few others) have more hybrid
cars in the pipeline in the near future. Lets hope they can continue
to improve.

They certainly will do - but then so will IC engines.

They have certainly improved over the years, but the rate of improvement
appears to be slowing. Petrol prices, on the other hand, are increasing
dramatically.

Which will effect hybrid cars with petrol engines like the Prius equally.

It is clear he doesn't know much about this.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
You are learning. ;-)

Oh do **** off, you imbecile. I've forgotten more about transmission
design than you know about selling hacksaws.


Oh, and Dave - first automatic transmission I can find was the Manly-La
France hydraulic one of 1907, used on light waggons and delivery
vehicles. It was a variable stroke hydraulic transmission with a 5
cylinder radial pump and a pair of directly-couple hydraulic motors.

Don't think that's quite the same thing - using an IC engine to power
either a hydraulic pump or electrical generator isn't really suitable for
cars.

How would you know. You understand these sort of things.

"AJH" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:56:42 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

The Prius has an automatic gearbox with planetary gears which acts as a
CVT.

That's a dubious statement though. The epicyclic gearing is there as
torque splitter, not as a controllable change in ratio. Effectively
it's an electrically controlled torque converter with additional
external power input (unlike a fluid torque converter) - but that's
really stretching the point to call it a CVT,

Are you sure?

He is sure and you just don't know.

This torque reference then
controls torque at the output,
thus effectively giving a constantly
variable gearing between engine
and rear wheels

Wrong.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Indeed, it's just that he claims some pretty fantastic facts about it?

At 65mpg

Do a Google on this group; Auto Express and Prius. 65mpg they got.

Do a Goggle on this group and Autocar

snip lunacy

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Automatic gearboxes have been available for some 50 years.

Such amazing information. In fact they have been around since the
1920s

Perhaps you'd name a car sold in the UK in the '20s with an auto box?

Who said the UK? Not me.

The UK had them in the 1930s

You just made that up

I never. I know these things.

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Doctor Drivel wrote:

No CVT, the car has no CVT. NO gearbox.

The Prius has an automatic
gearbox with planetary gears
which acts as a CVT.

WRONG!! No gearbox or CVT.


But YOU said it did

I never.

snip garbage

In article , --s-p-o-n-i-x--
writes

Did you know that 'Prius' is Japanese for 'Potato'?

In Drivel's case, 'Prius' is English for 'lemon'. But he won't admit
that the Prius is a lemon.

Of course, he doesn't really own one; he's just regurgitating the
marketing bull**** from the Toyota web****e.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

The idea of the battery actually lasting 8 years is crap. It's part of the
'selling at a loss' for status or whatever in the US.

They're lead-acid batteries as well, which have horrendous environmental
implications, something that Drivel has been keen to gloss over.

In article , Bioboffin
writes

In
a few years time the batteries will be larger, and cheaper, and hold
more energy too, giving about 60 to 100 miles battery range with
option of grid charging

Of course, Drivel ignores the unpalatable fact that grid charging simply
moves the source of pollution from the vehicle to the power station...

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

The new Highlander hybrid gets to 60 in 7.3 secs

Positively pedestrian,

You are kidding. The original Ford GT 40s did 0-60 in 6 secs.

In 1966, its now nearly 40 years later

It was racing car!!!!!! The Highlander is a 4x4.

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

A Toyota looks nothing like an Audi, and is curvy.
Most peopel comment of the nice advanced looks.

Any comment from their guide dogs?

But you think a Santa Fe is good looking. That is sad. All the Hollywood
set think the Prius is the thing.

Never seen a Santa Fe but that still doesn't stop the Prius looking
like a turd on wheels.

Another Philistine.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The good news is that Toyota (and a few others) have more hybrid
cars in the pipeline in the near future. Lets hope they can continue
to improve.

They certainly will do - but then so will IC engines.

What the hell is he on about.

It's plain English

It isn't at all.

snip incoherent drivel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
The good news is that Toyota (and a few others) have more hybrid
cars in the pipeline in the near future. Lets hope they can
continue to improve.

They certainly will do - but then so will IC engines.

What the hell is he on about.

I'd guess that he means that there are still technical improvements to
be made to IC engines; that seems a reasonable enough statement.

Drivel doesn't

He is guessing, he doesn't quite know.

snip babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
And Auto Express got 65,pg, and everyone else is 50mpg or way over. Mmm
appears Autocar are telling porkies. A lousy mag too.

Auto Express ....

....is a auto mag.

snip babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Clarkson hasn't convinced me of anything. 0-60 has traditionally been
one measure of a car's performance. Nothing more or less. You can use
it to compare with others, that's all. Perhaps more important is the
overtaking ability from say 30-50.

The Prius ****es all over a BMW 5 series in that range.

What

It does.

Found on the web:

=========================
C&D Test Results:

Prius Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph 5.5
50-70 mph 7.9

BMW 530I Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph: 13.3
50-70 mph: 12.3
=========================

There you go. The Prius ****es all over it.

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , --s-p-o-n-i-x--
writes

Did you know that 'Prius' is Japanese for 'Potato'?

In Drivel's case,

yes snipping lunacy is in order

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

The idea of the battery actually lasting 8 years is crap.

He wants them to last one year. they actualy lasy about 12 to 15.

They're lead-acid batteries as well,

Metal Hydride.

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Bioboffin
writes

In
a few years time the batteries will be larger, and cheaper, and hold
more energy too, giving about 60 to 100 miles battery range with
option of grid charging

Of course, Drivel ignores
the unpalatable fact that grid charging simply
moves the source of pollution from the
vehicle to the power station...

Which has surplus overnight power.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:09:58 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
[snip]

The compete motor, power splitter, transmission, inverter and
batteries are guaranteed 8 years.

I'm still waiting for Drivel to point me to a site that backs this up for
the *UK* Prius.

Phone Toyota you lazy pillock. Erm. they probably will not let him use the
phone at the clinic.

snip drivel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Isn't it a bit early to be drunk?


Different planet!

Regards
Capitol

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:08:39 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Don't think that's quite the same thing

It's a variable ratio automatic transmission. This particular vehicle
also used it to avoid the frictional losses in a large-ratio reduction
gear like a pre-hypoid bevel rear axle. Gear cutting was pretty crude
back then - I don't think there were any ground bevel gears at that
time.

- using an IC engine to power
either a hydraulic pump or electrical generator isn't really suitable for
cars.

Jury's still out on that. It's not viable as yet, but there's no
fundamental reason why it couldn't be. I built a dyno test cell some
time around 1990 for testing a lightweight electric transmission fitted
to a Peugeot 205. With developments in rare-earth magnets (just look at
your hard drive actuators) and efficient pancake motors this was seen as
a potentially viable way of building small car transmissions. It never
happened for transmissions, but your starter motor has probably lost its
field coils in favour of permanent magnets by now (even for your SD1
there's a permanent magnet starter)

Electric hybrids are just an extension of this same idea, risking the
killer capital costs of that battery to gain advantages of switching the
IC engine off during the less efficient parts of the cycle.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:51:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Drivel claims to own a Prius which of course is another of his lies.

Does he ? I'd always assumed that it was the boss' and he just made
him park it for him in the mornings.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:02:33 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The original Ford GT 40s did 0-60 in 6 secs.

If you're buying a car for use only up to 60mph, then perhaps the GT40
isn't your best choice then. I'm sure they have other good points
though.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:48:40 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

They're lead-acid batteries as well, which have horrendous environmental
implications,

Why ? A correctly recycled lead acid battery is no big deal. There's
more heavy-metal chemical hazard from the cadmium plating used around
the engine bay of a typical '70s car than there is from the lead in its
battery.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:53:30 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Rolls made a car called the 'Legalimit' before WW1 which had no variable
gearing at all and a fluid flywheel. But of course the single gear
approach doesn't work with an IC engine unless you can accept a poor top
speed and dreadful economy.

And Issigonis revived the idea with the Mini - although even BL was
smart enough not to let that one out of the factory gates.

I'm pretty certain the first true auto sold in the UK was a post WW2

"True auto" is taking a pretty narrow view here as "GM Hydramatic and
its clones", but I wouldn't argue as to RR being the first.

Germany was selling a licensed pre-war small Austin as the Adler, and
this included an auto variant (swivelling ball CVT). It seems to have
been more popular in Germany, but they were available here. (If you have
a library of old Caxton press motor books, there's an article on the
gearbox)

"AJH" wrote in message
...

The proof in the pudding
seems to be a small diesel will
outperform it for economy in most
circumstances.

Toyota Prius:
- cheap to run; 60 mpg
- Silenet running
- very cheap road tax.
- No congestion charge.
- £1000 grant from the government,
- 8 year warranty
- Every mod con you could ask for.
- Extremely low emissions.
- great trendy looks

VW diesel:

- Full road tax
- congestion charge,
- dirty
- smelly
- noisy
- no grant.
- good fuel economy only on a run.
- £900 for a new set of injectors every 70K miles
- £1000 for new injector pump every 100k.
- £650 for new turbo every 70k
-etc.

No contest, the Prius is winner.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:05:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Which will effect hybrid cars with petrol engines like the Prius equally.

The problem with the Prius is the high capital cost (battery) vs. a
dubious saving in operating fuel costs. Increasing fuel costs certainly
assists the Prius.

There seems to be no real argument against the Prius hybrid engine and
transmission concept being used in a stop-start "city car", perhaps as a
taxi or a bigger version of the Smart. The problem with the Prius is
that it seems to be being sold as an up-market BMW competitor, which it
very certainly isn't.

I can't see it competing with the Smart - it's to heavy and the Smart is
all about efficiency through light weight, But I'd love to see a taxi
version of the Prius.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

- using an IC engine to power
either a hydraulic pump or electrical generator isn't really suitable for
cars.

Jury's still out on that. It's not viable as yet, but there's no
fundamental reason why it couldn't be.

The lunatic, may have hit on a point without knowing it. The Internal
Combustion engine is not suitable, but an external combustion engine is, the
Stirling.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:41:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:51:47 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


3) It seems to have lasted the ~26 miles and only 24 of them have
been
on the IC engine ... !

You made that up.

Well it's possible it 'is' made up because *you* told me the std Prius
only did about 2 miles on batteries alone? Where you lying again?

It also recharges the batteries via the brakes and the engine, and when
enough juice it them moves on the electric motor. So you did make it up.

What's that got to do with it?

It charges the batteries. Can't you get that one?

What, perpetual motion .. no, *I* can't make that work ...

So, as other have tried to explain ...

Take the batteries out of your Primus and you have a straight (weird
looking over priced and complex) IC engined car.

Re-fit the tiny batteries that it comes with and that does what .. it
gives you maybe 2 miles on electric only before the engine / generator
kicks in (I know that's not how it's supposed to work but is correct
re pollution / fuel consumption).

The engine then propels the car for the next n miles (and may also
charge the batteries if there is any energy spare) but that still
'costs' re fuel and pollution.

All the batteries can possibly do is act as an energy cache .. they
cannot generate energy. What they can do however is minimise *some* of
the braking energy lost (regen) but only when braking under ideal
conditions (braking hard from speed or when going slowly will yeild
little to the energy stored in the battery). Therefore on a constant
speed journey the regen returns less energy than was required to
accelerate to that speed (the system WILL have losses in spite of what
the pamphlets say).

But then you won't understand / read / believe any of that will you
Drible?

T i m

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:45:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:44:16 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
but with what Dribble says and petrol ~£1 / l you would have thought
we'd be knee deep in them by now?

Not at 23 mpg - they're dreadful. Get a decent diesel at half the price.

lol. Got one Dave, at 1/160th of the price (Rover 218SD

You poor *******.

No, rich ******* (as compared to you) by the tune of 15,900 pounds.
Funny to think you can loose up to 16 grand on yer Primus and I can
only loose 100 pounds on the Rover ;-)

Real world challenge for you .. let's put the same value of fuel in
both our cars and go on a nice trip round the country (I'll even tow a
trailer if you like .. I know the Primus can't do that) ... just don't
expect me to drive back to get you when you run out before I do ...
(asuming you can get time off from behind the trade counter that is).

T i m

what is a prius?

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:21:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Clarkson hasn't convinced me of anything. 0-60 has traditionally been
one measure of a car's performance. Nothing more or less. You can use
it to compare with others, that's all. Perhaps more important is the
overtaking ability from say 30-50.

The Prius ****es all over a BMW 5 series in that range.

What

It does.

Found on the web:

=========================
C&D Test Results:

Prius Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph 5.5
50-70 mph 7.9

BMW 530I Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph: 13.3
50-70 mph: 12.3
=========================

There you go. The Prius ****es all over it.

And a cycle wll out accellerate a Ferrari over the first couple of
feet .. so what?

I believe the test was carried out in top gear for the BM (as you have
been told several times), not revealing the true abilities of the
vehicle.

But then you find conventional gearboxes 'complex' so you didn't
realise that was wrong did you?

You can't cope with one but disabled folk can .. says summat eh ..?

T i m

whatever it is I get the impression that only complete ****s would know
the answer, and no I don't really want to know.

On 14 Aug 2005 14:11:10 -0700, wrote:

what is a prius?

LOL .. good question and you *really* don't want to know ..!

T i m

On 14 Aug 2005 14:15:50 -0700, wrote:

whatever it is I get the impression that only complete ****s would know
the answer, and no I don't really want to know.

Good ...

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:53:30 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Rolls made a car called the 'Legalimit' before WW1 which had no variable
gearing at all and a fluid flywheel. But of course the single gear
approach doesn't work with an IC engine unless you can accept a poor top
speed and dreadful economy.

And Issigonis revived the idea with the Mini - although even BL was
smart enough not to let that one out of the factory gates.

The gearless mini using a Citroen CX torque converter. It was a great
success with economy and speed too. A little more R&D would have made it a
real winner. Lord Snowdon borrowed it for a while and was mightily
impressed. It saved on the weight of the old gearbox too. It was at the
Gayton museum. Look under and no fins hanging down. It was to be brought
to production, but as with many of the improvements and new Mini
derivatives, such as hatchbacks, finanicial problems at BMC and later BL
kept it back.

I'm pretty certain the first true auto sold in the UK was a post WW2

"True auto" is taking a pretty narrow view here as "GM Hydramatic and
its clones", but I wouldn't argue as to RR being the first.

Germany was selling a licensed pre-war small Austin as the Adler, and
this included an auto variant (swivelling ball CVT). It seems to have
been more popular in Germany, but they were available here. (If you have
a library of old Caxton press motor books, there's an article on the
gearbox)

The 1930s Austin with the toroidal IVT was about the first. The IVTs either
worked faultlessly or totally shattered, so were taken off the market after
quite a few thousand were sold. Only in the 1970/80s when further research
was undertaken on toroidal transmissions was the reason for the shattering
understood. The transmission type, Torotrack, was perfected but never taken
up for some strange reason. An Italian company has taken out a licence to
take it further.

http://www.torotrak.com/

As with many of these excellent developments, they are too late, although
the Torotrak has been around for 15 years or so; the hybrid has killed it.
heavy commercial applications may be feasible.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:41:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:51:47 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


3) It seems to have lasted the ~26 miles and only 24 of them have
been
on the IC engine ... !

You made that up.

Well it's possible it 'is' made up because *you* told me the std
Prius
only did about 2 miles on batteries alone? Where you lying again?

It also recharges the batteries via the brakes and the engine, and
when
enough juice it them moves on the electric motor. So you did make it
up.

What's that got to do with it?

It charges the batteries. Can't you get that one?

What, perpetual motion ..

It you want. Do you want an anti-gravity machine too?

In article , Andy Dingley
writes

Why ? A correctly recycled lead acid battery is no big deal.

Yes. /correctly/ recycled.

Look at the amount of car batteries that are dumped. Our local council
tip has a recycling point for car batteries (and I've taken other lead-
acid batteries, such as those from UPSes there too), but you still see
idiots chucking batteries into the skips destined for landfill because
they can't be arsed walking the extra 20 yards to the recycle point.