In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote:
There is a limit to how much energy can be transferred in a reasonable
time, so it won't be worthwhile going to a charging station in the way
we go to a petrol station today.

I was reading that large capacitors charged overnight could store energy
to zap batteries. I don't how much this is feasible.

So you charge up one 'battery' to fast charge another. Thus reducing the
efficiency of the power transfer even more.

Is there any end to your nonsense?

You're talking technology which might make sense for model racing planes
or cars, etc. Not full sized ones.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Reclaiming near 100% of brake energy is a great advantage. Charging
systems can made far superior to what is available. They will not stay
the same.

A good driver makes little heavy use of the brakes in town, and present
generators and batteries are capable of absorbing the energy from this
normal use already. Stopping a vehicle from high speed quickly - or any
form of emergency stop - is a different matter. But to provide a
motor/generator capable of giving such retardation is unlikely to be cost
effective in a car. Even things like trains, which regularly and
predictably brake from high speeds, and where cost and weight isn't such
an issue, still have conventional brakes to assist any regenerative
braking. And trains can't achieve anything like the deceleration required
by even a modest car.

A little bit of easily obtainable research will show that even a modest
town car will approach or even exceed 1G when braking from 30 mph if
required to do so, but even the most powerful can't approach this in
acceleration. So to provide motor/generators for each wheel which could
provide this sort of retardation would be neither practical or cost
effective.

--
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
The main problem is that they, you, or I can't move away from
anything unpleasant.

Whilst this may be true in rush hour while travelling in the same
direction as the majority, it isn't at other times. And I can't see
why you'd be forced to use the London underground in rush hour?


I'm not. I don't go to London any more. It was my experience on the
occasions I did use pt - from the late 50s to the late 90s. Not
frequently, by the way, just over a long period.

Then perhaps your opinion needs updating? Just about all the rolling
stock
and buses have been replaced recently, for example.

Perhaps it does need updating - but a) I'm not going to London just to do
that and b) other people, who do use the services, seem to be giving the
same messages.

Mary, the problem is the seats on public transport in London is full of
vomit from senile people like Richard. They shouldn't let them out.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:22:35 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


That is because they will not allow people to build on subsidised open
fields, paid to lay idle. Only 7.5% of the UK is built on, inc urban and
rural and inc gardens

Is that minus all the places not suitable for buildings though (like
half of Wales for example)?

"Most" of the UK is suitable for building

Now I dare say even if they were included the numbers wouldn't be as
high as say Hong Kong but probably (much) lower than the USA / NZ, Auz
and possibly most of the rest of Europe?

Isn't one of our 'problems' the fact that we are pretty well spread
across the whole of the country (hence all the long distance
commuting) whereas places like Germany have more specific popluation
centres with big gaps of nothing in-between?

No. The problem is: we are not allow people to build on subsidised open
fields, paid to lay idle. Only 7.5% of the UK is built on, inc urban and
rural and inc gardens

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:08:55 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


Because Chicago is built on a grid system, not a medieval street pattern.
The business section in the morning is light in traffic, as only traffic
going there is actually there. None running straight through as happens
in
the west end of London. Before the congestion charge, surveys found that
the majority of vehicles in the west end were just passing through. It
is
those that need to be discouraged.


Negative control again. The correct way os to encourage people to
use alternative routes by building appropriate capacity through ways
and bypasses.

No. Discourage the car. It is clogging the whole country up.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:23:35 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


I know (and how) batteries and motors
work (I have owned an EV for 16 years)

Your knowledge of batteries is lacking. You didn't even know about the
Toshiba battery

I never claimed I did. I'm talking about 'real' batteries mot
vapourware.

and the housewives guide to batteries web site was joke.

It was, and why I directed you to it (you missed that though didn't
you).

That is an EV not a hybrid, and limited by the battery technology, also your
motor probably will not the latest in efficiency either.

No, a 20 year old design using existing components at the time "not
the latest in efficiency.." (can't get anything past you can we)

If it's simplicity you wan't get a wheelbarrow.

Silly statement.

Pot, kettle (but mine was a joke, you actually believe everything you
type).



I know exactly what the Prius does. I have one. You can get to know if you
want to, and not even own one.

I have, and like many of it's kind are 'interesting'. However, when I
ran the 'see how much would save in fuel / year' calculator it told me
£38. Now, I could buy as second hand 2000 MK1 Prius for 5K (how much
did you pay for yours). I'm not sure it's exempt the road tax (like my
EV) nor the MOT (like my EV) and I don't suppose the insurance would
be less that £100 /pa (like my ev) so where are my savings? With your
locally generated energy you WILL be polluting in the city. With my
grid charging I NEVER am.

Ok, a challenge for you (if you are up to it) .. try to answer these
questions with the options provided and no snipping ok?

Q1) The batteries on your Pirus only allow the vehicle to run with no
(instant) emmisions for (say) 6 miles.
Yes / No

Q2) After the 6 mile distance your Pirus uses a petrol engine to
propell the vehicle and or charge the battery?
Yes / No

Q3) When the engine is running it is creating local pollution.
Yes / No

Q4) If you happen to get in the city with a flat battery the engine
can charge the battery whilst parked outside (say) a childerens
hospital?
Yes / No

Q5) If you drive 5 miles into a city on battery and to drive out again
you will be running on the engine creating local pollution.
Yes / No

Didn't think you would be able to answer them.

The Prius emits far less pollution in built up areas with brake regen
assisting recharge.

Brake regen recharge just helps recoup energy and therefore doesn't
affect the emmisions directly (the engine will be polluting the same
whenever it is on). To get regen you have to moving, to get moving you
consume energy, you recoup *some* energy but not much. It will reduce
the overall emmissions but not by much.

The engine is tuned for low pollution. It is revved to
over 1000rpm before the injection and ignition systems kick in, reducing
pollution, as low rev start-up creates far more pollution.

Agreed.

The engine is
"off" when the cars is still (kerbside pollution is a big killer in cities).

Good. Something done a few times before with conventional IC vehicles

When the low emissions engine kicks in it is assisted by the electric motor
reducing pollution.

But the engine is polluting. If the batteries are low (you have been
in EV mode) you will be getting a very small amount of electric
assist.

I have never know the engine to start by itself to
charge batteries when the car is switched off (it do, but never happened
with me). The management system ensures the battery never goes below a
certain charge and will adjust the power splitter (engine to
wheels/generator to ensure the minium charge).

Understood.

So, if you need to accellerate your Prius (whatever it weights) up to
a speed (in whatever the time) that will take Y energy. So, the
batteries needed to do that would need Y x range = Z

To charge a battery in 1 min would talke thousands of amps (don't
bother taking yer socks off) and trust me, yer domestic power supply
won't do that.


The domestic supply would trickle charge.

Good boy ..

And .. so where's this boost charge coming from?

Charging centres would zap an
auto battery in a few minutes.

Would they now ..

So Toshiba say. Have you told Toshiba this will not work?

It's not an issue of 'will not work' but the maths demonstrate
(ignoring ANY technological developements) that it would be very
(VERY) difficult / unpractical. To get that much energy into a battery
in 1 min you would need a lightening strike or similar.

Using existing battery technology, batteries
can only absorb so much brake regen and
much energy is wasted.

Yes, because the process is chemical
and that chemical reaction isn't 'fast' to react.

That is why Toshiba introduced another battery.

Ok, now the Toshiba battery *could* work but your generator could
never put the energy in fast enough. If you were to fit a big enough
genny you would rip the transmission out trying to use it at that
rate. (The braking effect is using the generator connected to the
transmission hence road wheels to impede the progress of the vehicle.
The amount of braking you require retermines the energy available. If
the vvehicle is big, fast and heavy you would 'need' more braking
effect than something that is small, slow and heavy. The aerodynamic
of the Prius help here because there is low wind resistance (so you
need to brake more ~ regen more). However, the regen can only
partially 'recoup' the energy used whilst accellerating.

The Toshiba batteries promise to claw
back most, if not all, of the brake regen energy.

Promises promises ... Recouping regen
energy has already been done by
(for example) imparting the braking energy
into a large flywheel or pnumatic pressure
cyl to release when needed later on.

Also compressing air and using it to propel via an air motor.

You don't understand the word pneumatic do you (or even pnumatic as I
spelled it first time)?



Eh, I said " So, if you need to accellerate
your Prius (whatever it weights) up to a
speed (in whatever the time) that will take
Y energy. So, the batteries needed to do
that would need Y x range = Z"

You see the word 'accellerate' and your
little ring goes?

That is all nice to know but meaningless in the performance, emissions and
economy of the Prius from an owners view.

But it is all part of the real picture. 50 mpg is easy (that what my
old 5 seater, 13 year old 150k mile Rover 218 SD does, ok not 'clean'
but it does' the mpg bit). Your Prius probably accellerates faster
than my Rover (so I don't understand why you are so defensive re
accelleration) I don't take it into the city (or if I do it's very
rare). If I had Prius money to spend on a vehicle I would still be
unsure about buying something that still polluted as much as the Prius
does. Plus if it won't tow anything (my folding camper, small goods
trailer, large goods trailer, 14' sailing dinghy) it's completely
useless for me.


Positive thinking from you. Encoutaging.

Trust me, I am trying to me positive re your Prius (or any other
hybrid) but the cons still outweigh the pros. When I went from 25mpg
in the Sierra to 50 mpg in the Rover I DOUBLED my mpg. If I went from
50 mpg to 100 mpg (real) in a hybrid that would still be as versatile
as my old Rover (that cost £100) then I might start to show more
interest. Bigger batteries won't affect the (real) mpg btw.


And you do not have the ultra low emissions of
the Prius either,

Some figures quoted suggest they 'aren't that low?

Far lower than any IC engine cars that is for sure, and very low in city
driving.

Possibly ..

Kerbside pollution is eliminated.

Explain. You have already said the engine runs most of the time?


I had better start saving then
.. if you say it's a 'must have'!

It is a must have.

Nope. Tricked ya! ;-)

snip

Savings are less then.

Yes

day on congestion and parking,

do,'t go so don't need to park. If
I did I'd go in my motorbile, no
congestion charge or parking cost

If you went in a Prius that would have no congestion charge or parking too,
and you don't get wet or killed easy.

I would suggest the instances of a motorcyclist getting killed by
another motorcyclist are very rare. I'm not a sissy and will go out in
the rain.

Q How many Priuses can you park in one parking space
A One
Q How many motorbikes can you park in one Prius space
A Probably 10

Congestion reduction value = 10.

then the amazing mpg.

Amazing, probably 20 mpg worse than my Honda CB250.

We looking at cars, not death traps. You are confused.

No, we are looking at efficient low emmission transport.

Or in my case the cost and depreciation
of pointless vehicle?

Your bike is pointless.

Till it goes past you 'large family saloon' stuck in traffic. Your
magic Prius may welll not pollute as much as some vehicles (and far
far less than many) but unless it can also fly as useless as any other
tin box in heavy traffic.

Out of intrest, what do they state for
caravan noseweigts for towing with the
Prius?

I don't know, I am not a Tinker.

You surprise me. See another part of managing polution is not running
a bigger vehicle than you need (reference any haulier, he wouldn't
send out an artic when a box van would do, it's just not viable).
Rather than running a huge vehicle 365 I run a medium sized vehicle
and use a trailer to provide extra load capacity when needed. The
trailers produce no pollution themselves and because of the slightly
reduced speed whilst towing (RT rules not performance) the mpg oten
remains the same (or sometimes better).

Then the cheaper servicing as
the electric components
are service free. Doesn't take long
to claw back the costs does it.

Nope, I have always serviced my
own vehicles.

We are talking generally.
The average motorist does not service. Also if
you DIYed a Prius they is little to do.

There is more to do than on an EV and as much to do with any other
engined vehicle? Fuel filters, air filers, engine oil and oil filters,
pumps, belts, coolants ...

See why there is a waiting list?

Nope.

You are confused.

Of couse I am "nurse, he's out again" .. ;-)

Nope, but I understand why there
could be .. mind you, Clarkson
had to wait 18 months for is Ford GT40
(or whatever it was) .. still breaks down

You are confused. he is on about a fat irritating TV man now.

No, a waiting list does not mean it is good.

Ok .. in the early 80's IBM came out with
the PC.

That they reluctantly did..

Base unit containing
a motherboard, CPU, RAM etc and a floppy drive. External monitor and
keyboard. 25 years later what has changed .. ok we now have mice,
CD/DVD and they run quicker?

Laptops integrate the lot. GUI OSs. A lot has changed.

In the basic concepts, nothing has changed.

Petrol car, 4 pistons, petrol in, exhaust out ... electric cart,
battery, motor .. , Wright Brothers, aeroplane, wings, engine .. no
anti gravity or time travel .. get the idea?

Nope. You are confused.

Ok, your flying carpet (Prius) .. please tick off the list if it will
help you undersand the point ..

Engine using reciprocating pistons turning a crankshaft.
A container of fuel
Internal combustion
Exhaut system

Get it yet, exactly the same as year 1900.

Once the basic concept has been
'invented' it often takes the
invention of something *completely*
new before we take another giant
leap. If you had brought to our attention
a new battery with 1000 x the capacity
of existing batteries we might be interested, you didn't,
we aren't.

It is clear you ignorant of developments and hybrid technology...and
confused. Sad but true.

Flicks though EV the book I bought in 1985 and notes the section
marked 'Hybrid Vehicles'

"A vehicle that combines a IC engine and batteries / motor"

I was probably reading that about the same time you were being brought
round with smelling salts (again).

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PC Paul wrote:

Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, Autocar got 55mpg in central
London.
There, there.

And I got 999.9 mpg coming down Snake Pass.

Over the *whole* journey I got 22mpg.

If you have

It is clear Richard can't figure out averages, only believes extremes. Sad
but true.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Autocar got 55mpg in central London.

They could have

Once again, and repeat it 10 times now,
AutoExpress got 65mpg in central
London. There, there.

I've seen 60 mpg

Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in central
London in a Prius. There, there.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
T i m wrote:
Unless you do mainly city driving, avoid the extravagant maker's
claims for hybrids as regards fuel consumption and emissions. On
average out of town journeys they're no better than a conventional
petrol car.

More tripe from Mr Cranium.

Oh dear oh dear ... ;-)

AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that averaged 65
mpg in central London.

Great .. similar to many current small cars then ?

Nope.

But the big difference is the Prius was
running mainly off stored energy.

Correct. 10/10 keep up the good work.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote:
He said "There are waiting lists because they are in short supply".
Also
there is ignorance toward this car, as you overtly demonstrate. Once
ignorance has dissolved, the residuals will be brill.

It has been so heavily revised the old models will drop even faster.

Richard, yo are 100% wrong as usual. Sad but true.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote:
But that's their choice. They pay for it by virtue of higher car
and
fuel taxes and costs.

And choke the rast of us in the long run.

You're a rasta now? Gonna call yourself Dog Evil?

The spliff dazed cha cha cha dancer

that would explain a lot

Maxie, have you a thing about Carib people?

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:50:39 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Yes. They'll be wonderful when we get renewable electricity. Which will
probably be never. And burning a fossil fuel in a power station to
charge *any* battery is far less efficient than using that fuel
directly to power the vehicle.
snip

A COGAS system (Gas turbine with waste heat recovery) will have an
efficiency slightly better than 50%. A slow speed diesel with waste
heat recovery also will exceed 50% efficiency. Steam turbine system
that provide the bulk of power have efficiencies closer to 30%.

Yes. And add in transmission losses via the grid, etc, then the much
higher losses involved in actually charging any battery. Add in the costs
of any high tech battery throughout its likely life, and it makes far more
sense to use that fuel directly - apart from any localised emissions
issue.

He fails to see that distributed power generation is on the way, with the
first installation in East Manchester. Sad but true.

And this power is generated how?

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:50:39 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Yes. They'll be wonderful when we get renewable electricity. Which
will
probably be never. And burning a fossil fuel in a power station to
charge *any* battery is far less efficient than using that fuel
directly to power the vehicle.
snip

A COGAS system (Gas turbine with waste heat recovery) will have an
efficiency slightly better than 50%. A slow speed diesel with waste
heat recovery also will exceed 50% efficiency. Steam turbine system
that provide the bulk of power have efficiencies closer to 30%.

Yes. And add in transmission losses via the grid, etc, then the much
higher losses involved in actually charging any battery. Add in the
costs
of any high tech battery throughout its likely life, and it makes far
more
sense to use that fuel directly - apart from any localised emissions
issue.

He fails to see that distributed power generation is on the way, with the
first installation in East Manchester. Sad but true.

And this power is generated how?

Gas in the home.

Go to:
http://www.whispergen.co.uk
http://www.gledhill.net/water-storage/ws-index.htm
Go to innovations on the menu and select mCHP

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Now, if you live in the country or places where there is a 'good'
chance of getting snowed / mudded in several times of the year a real
'off roader' (eg Land Rover 110 / Disco / Shogun? etc) with a mid
sized diesel engine might still be acceptable. For (guess) 70% of the
others something that 'looks' like a 4 x 4 (but just 2wd) but built
lighter with a smaller more economical (diesel?) engine would probably
placate their egos whilst polluting less (less fuel burnt / mile =
good). And, so what if it only does 50 mph .. they never leave the
City anyway! ;-)

Can't see it happening though .. if you have the money to afford to
run / maintain such a beast even £1000 / year road tax and fuel at 10/
gallon with make them think about anyone than No1.


This is a bull**** argument. It isn't acceptable to expect people to
justify their personal choice of mode of transport if they are
prepared to pay for it. This is typical Livingstonesque focus on the
wrong issues just for the sake of propaganda and is not addressing the
real issues.

The real issues are to drastically reduce cars in London, especially central
London, because of the environmental and health damages they do. Ken
tackles that well as he can restricted by existing laws.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:20:25 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


You take the pollution away from the cities where it does most harm.

So it's ok to pollute away from the cities. That works like one end of
a table being no-smoking (for the bigger picture).

Rather wasting time and trouble with a compromise vehicle (Prius) that
still pollutes, why don't you you really do the earth a favour and get
a fuel cell vehicle?

http://tinyurl.com/dlmpb

(once on the page click on the link at the top and the nice man will
tell you all about it)

T i m

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:32:24 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


You will have to tell Toshiba all about this. The prime point is that
most,
if not all, of the brake regen energy will be reclaimed.

Yes, but this only covers so much of the requirement. These are not
perpetual motion machines.

What are you on about?

That recovery of energy from braking only covers part of the
requirement and that most has to come from some form of charging.




Nowadays people are used to going to a filling station, filling the
vehicle in about 2-3 minutes and away. They are not going to want to
hang around.

Most people spend about 10 minutes in a petrol shop.

Rubbish. Most people spend less than 5. What do you do with the
other 5?

Even if it were 10 minutes, and paying could be while charging, it's
still not enough to make a worthwhile difference.




Further problems:

There is a limit to how much energy can be transferred in a reasonable
time, so it won't be worthwhile going to a charging station in the way
we go to a petrol station today.

I was reading that large capacitors charged overnight could store energy to
zap batteries. I don't how much this is feasible.

They would need to be bloody big capacitors to store this amount of
energy and there is still the cabling problem.



Let's say that the venue is altered and the charging points are at
vehicle bays in supermarket car parks. Some in California have done
this, but talking to some friends with cars with batteries there, they
are not often used because it's not worth it for the amount of charge
that can be put into the battery.

Charging systems would change if the Toshiba battery became the norm.

They still can't defy the laws of physics.



Look at the situation again where the battery technology is not
limiting that rate of charge (in effect the Toshiba case). A
reasonable scenario with a supermarket charging point would be to be
able to replenish 20% of the battery capacity in 15 minutes. Using the
example above, this would mean about 1/75th of the requirement.
That's still 1920A at 50v or 96kW. At the 50v level, that would
imply cables that old ladies are certainly not going to be able to
lift. At AC mains level it would still imply heavy cables and a
chunky power supply in the car.

So the reality is that this technology may well result in better
recovery of energy from braking, but makes no difference to the
praticality of charging stations.

Reclaiming near 100% of brake energy is a great advantage.

It's an advantage but only a piece of the equation.

Charging systems
can made far superior to what is available. They will not stay the same.

Probably not, but still can't defy physics. Something like a battery
swap would be needed to be able to provide a quick turn-around.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:46:14 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


And this power is generated how?

Gas in the home.

Go to:
http://www.whispergen.co.uk
http://www.gledhill.net/water-storage/ws-index.htm
Go to innovations on the menu and select mCHP


Isn't this in contrast to your main goal of taking pollution away from
the city? Take away the remote power station and burn oil / gas in
1,000,000 homes in the city instead?

T i m

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that averaged 65
mpg in central London.

Great .. similar to many current small cars then ?

Nope.

Where did you get this information?

But the big difference is the Prius was
running mainly off stored energy.

Correct. 10/10 keep up the good work.

So you didn't take into account the cost of storing this energy in the
first place? Because energy is free on your planet?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. And never did this apply more
than to yours.

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:35:08 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



But the big difference is the Prius was
running mainly off stored energy.

Correct. 10/10 keep up the good work.

Ok Mr Clever ... and that energy got there how ... go on, you can do
it .. .. yes, by running your IC generator creating pollution.
there, not that difficult eh ;-)

I bet the Toyota dealer took all his staff go-carting when they got
rid of the (soon to be obsolete) MK1 Prius on you .. ;-)

T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
He fails to see that distributed power generation is on the way, with
the first installation in East Manchester. Sad but true.

And this power is generated how?

It works by converting the vast rainfall in Manchester into hydrogen and
oxygen. Using power from the national grid. And as everyone knows, rain is
free. So it generates free electricity. Drivel gave them the idea.

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Rather wasting time and trouble with a compromise vehicle (Prius) that
still pollutes, why don't you you really do the earth a favour and get
a fuel cell vehicle?

Of course he hasn't actually got one. It's part of his IMM fantasy - he's
read all the LA film stars have one. Which they use for arriving at
publicity events rather than their daily use Range Rover.

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:23:35 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


I know (and how) batteries and motors
work (I have owned an EV for 16 years)

Your knowledge of batteries is lacking. You didn't even know about the
Toshiba battery

I never claimed I did. I'm talking about 'real' batteries mot
vapourware.

Have you notified Toshiba about your claims?

and the housewives guide to batteries web site was joke.

It was, and why I directed you to it (you missed that though didn't
you).

You thought is was top notch. Don't tell porkies.

That is an EV not a hybrid, and limited by the battery technology, also
your
motor probably will not the latest in efficiency either.

No, a 20 year old design using existing components at the time "not
the latest in efficiency.." (can't get anything past you can we)

So irrelevant.

If it's simplicity you wan't get a wheelbarrow.

Silly statement.

Pot, kettle (but mine was a joke, you actually believe everything you
type).

Please let us know why you do jollies, they are not obvious.

I know exactly what the Prius does.
I have one. You can get to know if you
want to, and not even own one.

I have,

No you haven't. I told you most about on here.

and like many of it's kind are
'interesting'.

It is the best car in the world. In technology, mpg vs performance/size and
emissions.

However, when I ran the 'see how
much would save in fuel / year' calculator
it told me £38.

Balls! You must be doing about 30-35mpg. on 12000 miles ayear and getting
55 to 65mpg, is a lot of yen.

Now, I could buy as second hand 2000 MK1 Prius for 5K (how much
did you pay for yours).

Brand new Mk 2 with 1K off

I'm not sure it's exempt the road tax (like my
EV) nor the MOT (like my EV) and I don't suppose the insurance would
be less that £100 /pa (like my ev) so where are my savings? With your
locally generated energy you WILL be polluting in the city. With my
grid charging I NEVER am.

But your EV is not practicable. How about peddle car?

Didn't think you would be able to answer them.

See below.

The Prius emits far less pollution in built up areas with brake regen
assisting recharge.

Brake regen recharge just helps
recoup energy and therefore doesn't
affect the emmisions directly (the engine
will be polluting the same whenever it is on).

Are you that slow? You are getting like Richard the lunatic. It maintains
the electric charge longer so more time for the electric motor to spin.

To get regen you have to moving, to get moving you
consume energy, you recoup *some* energy but not much. It will reduce
the overall emmissions but not by much.

Quite a bit. More if the have the new Toshiba battery.

The engine is tuned for low pollution. It is revved to
over 1000rpm before the injection and ignition systems kick in, reducing
pollution, as low rev start-up creates far more pollution.

Agreed.

The engine is
"off" when the cars is still (kerbside
pollution is a big killer in cities).

Good. Something done a few times
before with conventional IC vehicles

Name one?

When the low emissions engine
kicks in it is assisted by the electric motor
reducing pollution.

But the engine is polluting.

But far less.

If the batteries are low (you have been
in EV mode) you will be getting a very
small amount of electric assist.

It varies.

I have never know the engine to start by itself to
charge batteries when the car is switched off (it do, but never happened
with me). The management system ensures the battery never goes below a
certain charge and will adjust the power splitter (engine to
wheels/generator to ensure the minium charge).

Understood.

So, if you need to accellerate your Prius (whatever it weights) up
to
a speed (in whatever the time) that will take Y energy. So, the
batteries needed to do that would need Y x range = Z

To charge a battery in 1 min would talke thousands of amps (don't
bother taking yer socks off) and trust me, yer domestic power supply
won't do that.

The domestic supply would trickle charge.

Good boy ..

And .. so where's this boost charge coming from?

A boost charge station when they are about.

Charging centres would zap an
auto battery in a few minutes.

Would they now ..

So Toshiba say. Have you told Toshiba this will not work?

It's not an issue of 'will not work' but the maths demonstrate
(ignoring ANY technological developements) that it would be very
(VERY) difficult / unpractical. To get that much energy into a battery
in 1 min you would need a lightening strike or similar.

It can be done. It will take all brake regen, which is great point. And
faster charging is available, to what the charging system can give.

Using existing battery technology, batteries
can only absorb so much brake regen and
much energy is wasted.

Yes, because the process is chemical
and that chemical reaction isn't 'fast' to react.

That is why Toshiba introduced another battery.

Ok, now the Toshiba battery *could* work
but your generator could never put the energy
in fast enough.

It can as Toshiba say 80-90% od charge in 1 minute.

If you were to fit a big enough
genny you would rip the transmission
out trying to use it at that
rate. (The braking effect is using the generator connected to the
transmission hence road wheels to impede the progress of the vehicle.
The amount of braking you require retermines the energy available. If
the vvehicle is big, fast and heavy you would 'need' more braking
effect than something that is small, slow and heavy. The aerodynamic
of the Prius help here because there is low wind resistance (so you
need to brake more ~ regen more). However, the regen can only
partially 'recoup' the energy used whilst accellerating.

Currently a lot is waisted because batteries can't store the energy
generated.

The Toshiba batteries promise to claw
back most, if not all, of the brake regen energy.

Promises promises ... Recouping regen
energy has already been done by
(for example) imparting the braking energy
into a large flywheel or pnumatic pressure
cyl to release when needed later on.

Also compressing air and using it to propel via an air motor.

You don't understand the word pneumatic
do you (or even pnumatic as I
spelled it first time)?

I repeat: Also compressing air and using it to propel via an air motor.

Eh, I said " So, if you need to accellerate
your Prius (whatever it weights) up to a
speed (in whatever the time) that will take
Y energy. So, the batteries needed to do
that would need Y x range = Z"

You see the word 'accellerate' and your
little ring goes?

That is all nice to know but meaningless in the performance, emissions
and
economy of the Prius from an owners view.

But it is all part of the real picture. 50 mpg is easy

The Prius can do much better than that and new battery technology has proven
you can get 135mpg. Fited in cars "right now"

(that what my old 5 seater, 13 year old 150k mile Rover 218 SD does, ok
not 'clean'
but it does' the mpg bit). Your Prius probably accellerates faster
than my Rover (so I don't understand why you are so defensive re
accelleration) I don't take it into the city (or if I do it's very
rare). If I had Prius money to spend on a vehicle I would still be
unsure about buying something that still polluted as much as the Prius
does.

It is the cleanest mas produced vehicle in the world.

Plus if it won't tow anything (my folding camper, small goods
trailer, large goods trailer, 14' sailing dinghy) it's completely
useless for me.

It can.

Positive thinking from you. Encoutaging.

Trust me, I am trying to me positive re your Prius (or any other
hybrid) but the cons still outweigh the pros.

Total nonsense! Thye been given to you.

When I went from 25mpg
in the Sierra to 50 mpg in the Rover
I DOUBLED my mpg.

50mpg in a Rover diesel? Please. As soon as you want some performance the
thing just sucks fuel. Also the thing pollutes like crazy.

If I went from 50 mpg to 100 mpg (real) in a hybrid that would still be as
versatile
as my old Rover (that cost £100) then I might start to show more
interest. Bigger batteries won't affect the (real) mpg btw.

In Californai they get 135mpg, and charging from cheap mains lecky.

And you do not have the ultra low emissions of
the Prius either,

Some figures quoted suggest they 'aren't that low?

Far lower than any IC engine cars that is for sure, and very low in city
driving.

Possibly ..

Certainly. Stop making things up.

Kerbside pollution is eliminated.

Explain. You have already said the engine runs most of the time?

Kebside is idling whenh stopped or moving 1 or 2 mph. This creates heavy
pollution. Breath in the air in Fleet St when there is traffic jam there.
None are moving but the air is disgusting.

I had better start saving then
.. if you say it's a 'must have'!

It is a must have.

Nope. Tricked ya! ;-)

It is a must have. Best car in the world. No gearbox.

Savings are less then.

Yes

day on congestion and parking,

do,'t go so don't need to park. If
I did I'd go in my motorbile, no
congestion charge or parking cost

If you went in a Prius that would have no congestion charge or parking
too,
and you don't get wet or killed easy.

I would suggest the instances of a motorcyclist getting killed by
another motorcyclist are very rare. I'm not a sissy and will go out in
the rain.

Look up death rates on bikes.

Q How many Priuses can you park in one parking space
A One

and free in most citoes.

Q How many motorbikes can you park in one Prius space
A Probably 10

and you will have to pay using the Pruis space. And bikes kill easily.

Congestion reduction value = 10.

The Prius was is not meant to rival death bikes. You lack focus.

then the amazing mpg.

Amazing, probably 20 mpg worse than my Honda CB250.

We looking at cars, not death traps. You are confused.

No, we are looking at efficient low emmission transport.

No. we are not!! We are looking at the Prius and the equiv in size,
performance etc. No contest.

Or in my case the cost and depreciation
of pointless vehicle?

Your bike is pointless.

Till it goes past you 'large family saloon' stuck in traffic. Your
magic Prius may welll not pollute as much as some vehicles (and far
far less than many) but unless it can also fly as useless as any other
tin box in heavy traffic.

You are still confused with a lack of focus.

Out of intrest, what do they state for
caravan noseweigts for towing with the
Prius?

I don't know, I am not a Tinker.

You surprise me. See another part of managing polution is not running
a bigger vehicle than you need (reference any haulier, he wouldn't
send out an artic when a box van would do, it's just not viable).

I could have 10 years, one for all occasions, but that is silly.

Then the cheaper servicing as
the electric components
are service free. Doesn't take long
to claw back the costs does it.

Nope, I have always serviced my
own vehicles.

We are talking generally.
The average motorist does not service. Also if
you DIYed a Prius they is little to do.

There is more to do than on an EV and as much to do with any other
engined vehicle? Fuel filters, air filers, engine oil and oil filters,
pumps, belts, coolants ...

On a Prius you service the engine and brakes, etc. The electruic./tranny is
service free.

See why there is a waiting list?

Nope.

You are confused.

Of couse I am "nurse, he's out again" .. ;-)

Get therapy.

Nope, but I understand why there
could be .. mind you, Clarkson
had to wait 18 months for is Ford GT40
(or whatever it was) .. still breaks down

You are confused. He is on about a fat irritating TV man now.

No, a waiting list does not mean it is good.

IT ios good that is for sure. The waiting list is not because it is bad.

Ok .. in the early 80's IBM came out with
the PC.

That they reluctantly did..

Base unit containing
a motherboard, CPU, RAM etc and a floppy drive. External monitor and
keyboard. 25 years later what has changed .. ok we now have mice,
CD/DVD and they run quicker?

Laptops integrate the lot. GUI OSs. A lot has changed.

In the basic concepts, nothing has changed.

It has I just told you.

Petrol car, 4 pistons, petrol in, exhaust out ... electric cart,
battery, motor .. , Wright Brothers, aeroplane, wings, engine .. no
anti gravity or time travel .. get the idea?

Nope. You are confused.

Ok, your flying carpet (Prius) .. please tick off the list if it will
help you undersand the point ..

Engine using reciprocating pistons turning a crankshaft.
A container of fuel
Internal combustion
Exhaut system

Get it yet, exactly the same as year 1900.

They didn't have electric transmission and electric assist, and ultra low
emissions. You are confused.

Once the basic concept has been
'invented' it often takes the
invention of something *completely*
new before we take another giant
leap. If you had brought to our attention
a new battery with 1000 x the capacity
of existing batteries we might be interested, you didn't,
we aren't.

It is clear you are ignorant of developments and hybrid technology...and
confused. Sad but true.

Flicks though EV the book I bought in 1985 and notes the section
marked 'Hybrid Vehicles'

"A vehicle that combines a IC engine and batteries / motor"

yes.

I was probably reading that about the same time you were being brought
round with smelling salts (again).

I repeat: "It is clear you are ignorant of developments and hybrid
technology...and confused"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in
central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

Which it isn't. How long have you been like this?

"T i m" wrote in message
...

I bet the Toyota dealer took all his staff go-carting when they got
rid of the (soon to be obsolete) MK1 Prius on you .. ;-)

I have a Mk 2, new in 04. The best car in the world.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:20:25 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

You take the pollution away from the cities where it does most harm.

So it's ok to pollute away from the cities.

Relatively so, yes.

You are still confused.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
T i m wrote:

Rather wasting time and trouble with a compromise vehicle (Prius) that
still pollutes, why don't you you really do the earth a favour and get
a fuel cell vehicle?

Not available yet. And the Prius is still the best car in the world.

Of course

Mr Cranium,. you are confused.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
T i m wrote:
He fails to see that distributed power generation is on the way, with
the first installation in East Manchester. Sad but true.

And this power is generated how?

It works by converting the vast rainfall in Manchester into hydrogen and
oxygen. Using power from the national grid. And as everyone knows, rain is
free. So it generates free electricity. Drivel gave them the idea.

Mr Cranium, get help.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in
central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

Which it isn't. How long have you been like this?

So you believe Auto Express when it suits you, but not when it doesn't?
Are you a religious bigot as well?

--
*Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:16:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
He fails to see that distributed power generation is on the way, with
the first installation in East Manchester. Sad but true.

And this power is generated how?

It works by converting the vast rainfall in Manchester into hydrogen and
oxygen. Using power from the national grid. And as everyone knows, rain is
free. So it generates free electricity. Drivel gave them the idea.

;-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in
central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

Which it isn't. How long have you been like this?

So you believe Auto Express

Yes they got 65mpg on average. Isn't that just brill!

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that averaged 65
mpg in central London.

Great .. similar to many current small cars then ?

Nope.

Where did you get this information?

Mr Cranium, just for you: AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that averaged
65 mpg in central London.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in
central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

Which it isn't. How long have you been like this?

Since you've quoted Honest John you presumably approve of his depth of
knowledge?

Have a look at :-

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=147

Now I know you have problems reading any article fully let alone
understanding it so I've included the relevant text below:-

"But Toyota takes this a couple of stages further by using an Atkinson
Cycle version of its chain-cam variable valve timed 1.5 petrol engine and
an epicyclic continuously variable automatic transmission. I confess, I
don't understand much of this, but apparently an Atkinson cycle engine
mated to a conventional gearbox would be almost undrivable because it does
not accelerate smoothly. It runs at a series of fixed revs at which it is
most efficient. Mating it to a continuously variable transmission masks
this, and the overall effect of petrol engine, electric motor assistance
and CVT box is not hugely different from any other CVT automatic."

And then there's

http://research.cars.com/go/crp/reviews.jsp;jsessionid=OBSCZVCJCLZUVLAZGJKJXLA?mak eid=47&modelid=2916&year=2005&myid=&acode=&revid=4 7130&crpPage=summary.jsp&revlogtype=21&aff=nationa l

Again, I've included the relevant part:-

"Under the Hood

The 1.5-liter four-cylinder gasoline engine develops 76 horsepower, and a
500-volt 50-kilowatt electric motor is installed. The hybrid powertrain
teams with a continuously variable transmission."


Seems as usual the whole world is wrong and only you right.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:25:47 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


However, when I ran the 'see how
much would save in fuel / year' calculator
it told me £38.

Balls! You must be doing about 30-35mpg.

Must I, here's a little test for you 250 miles on £20 woth od diesel.

on 12000 miles ayear and getting
55 to 65mpg, is a lot of yen.

Howabout 2000 miles a year you congestion causing fool.

I'm not sure it's exempt the road tax (like my
EV) nor the MOT (like my EV) and I don't suppose the insurance would
be less that £100 /pa (like my ev) so where are my savings? With your
locally generated energy you WILL be polluting in the city. With my
grid charging I NEVER am.

But your EV is not practicable.

For you maybe not (it doesn't run on Toshiba's magic batteries (have
you told them yet) and I don't want an ic engine in my electric
vehicle. If I want to drive somewhere in a car I'll take a car.

How about peddle car?

Too complicated for you .. probably more complicated than a Prius (to
you)?


To get regen you have to moving, to get moving you
consume energy, you recoup *some* energy but not much. It will reduce
the overall emmissions but not by much.

Quite a bit. More if the have the new Toshiba battery.

Witch you don't so irrelevent

The engine is
"off" when the cars is still (kerbside
pollution is a big killer in cities).

Good. Something done a few times
before with conventional IC vehicles

Name one?

I could do a Drivel and make something up (but I won't). I *'think'*
it was on a Transit. They demonstrated the starup emmissions were
overcome by spinning the engine fast for startup (as you mentioned)
and stopping at 'kerbside' as you call it).


If the batteries are low (you have been
in EV mode) you will be getting a very
small amount of electric assist.

It varies.

From nothing to some, so effectivly just running mostly IC.


And .. so where's this boost charge coming from?

A boost charge station when they are about.

From Flux Capacitors, when they are about.

It's not an issue of 'will not work' but the maths demonstrate
(ignoring ANY technological developements) that it would be very
(VERY) difficult / unpractical. To get that much energy into a battery
in 1 min you would need a lightening strike or similar.

It can be done.

We didn't say it couldn't, just highly unpractical.

It will take all brake regen, which is great point.

FWIW (which is not that much)

And
faster charging is available, to what the charging system can give.

Oh, so not 1 min any more then ... ?

Ok, now the Toshiba battery *could* work
but your generator could never put the energy
in fast enough.

It can as Toshiba say 80-90% od charge in 1 minute.

No, you STILL don't understand. Ok, lets say you have a 50KW genny in
that thing to put that much energy into a battery in 1 min would put
you through the windscreen (No, you say it Dave)).

Currently a lot is waisted because batteries can't store the energy
generated.

True, but theres not that much 'spare' to waste (magic batteries or
otherwise).


Also compressing air and using it to propel via an air motor.

You don't understand the word pneumatic
do you (or even pnumatic as I
spelled it first time)?

I repeat: Also compressing air and using it to propel via an air motor.

Yes, you repeated what I said in baby words.


The Prius can do much better than that and new battery technology has proven
you can get 135mpg. Fited in cars "right now"

"Can do much better" (sure you aren't reading your school reports?)


It is the cleanest mas produced vehicle in the world.

I bet you polish every night ... reduces drag doesn't it ..

Plus if it won't tow anything (my folding camper, small goods
trailer, large goods trailer, 14' sailing dinghy) it's completely
useless for me.

It can.

Diffent answer to last time though?

When I went from 25mpg
in the Sierra to 50 mpg in the Rover
I DOUBLED my mpg.

50mpg in a Rover diesel? Please.

Yep, and that and better on many other vehicles. But then other
vehicles don't exist do they?

As soon as you want some performance the
thing just sucks fuel.

"And why would anyone wan't perfomance .. you don't so whay would I
(you with yer Prios dragster).

Also the thing pollutes like crazy.

Well, it has a 50% reduced pollution than something similar doing 25
mpg so that's ok isn't it. I mean, your car (?) pollutes X% yes but
not none?

If I went from 50 mpg to 100 mpg (real) in a hybrid that would still be as
versatile
as my old Rover (that cost £100) then I might start to show more
interest. Bigger batteries won't affect the (real) mpg btw.

In Californai they get 135mpg, and charging from cheap mains lecky.

Move then (please)


Kerbside pollution is eliminated.

Explain. You have already said the engine runs most of the time?

Kebside is idling whenh stopped or moving 1 or 2 mph.

That's your city speed then is it?

This creates heavy
pollution. Breath in the air in Fleet St when there is traffic jam there.
None are moving but the air is disgusting.

Yep, and my EV has no kerbside pollution from 0-30 mph ... and?


It is a must have. Best car in the world. No gearbox.

Hmm, no gears in the transmission eh ... kewl ..


I would suggest the instances of a motorcyclist getting killed by
another motorcyclist are very rare. I'm not a sissy and will go out in
the rain.

Look up death rates on bikes.

Why? We are talking about pollution / congestion?

Q How many Priuses can you park in one parking space
A One

and free in most citoes.

So? Free does not equal good for the other people (oh there aren't any
other people, only you)?

Q How many motorbikes can you park in one Prius space
A Probably 10

and you will have to pay using the Pruis space.

And you can park in the mank 'Bike only' places.

And bikes kill easily.

Incorrect, Cars, buses , lorries kill bikers easily.

Congestion reduction value = 10.

The Prius was is not meant to rival death bikes. You lack focus.

And you lack a grip on the real and current world. The motorbike is a
very common form of transport in countries with very heavy congestion
and little or expensive resources. Many moden bikes are fitted with
catalytic converters.


Your bike is pointless.

Till it goes past you 'large family saloon' stuck in traffic. Your
magic Prius may welll not pollute as much as some vehicles (and far
far less than many) but unless it can also fly as useless as any other
tin box in heavy traffic.

You are still confused with a lack of focus.

But at my destination while folk are still laughing at you sat in
traffic.


You surprise me. See another part of managing polution is not running
a bigger vehicle than you need (reference any haulier, he wouldn't
send out an artic when a box van would do, it's just not viable).

I could have 10 years, one for all occasions, but that is silly.

Make sense please?


There is more to do than on an EV and as much to do with any other
engined vehicle? Fuel filters, air filers, engine oil and oil filters,
pumps, belts, coolants ...

On a Prius you service the engine and brakes, etc. The electruic./tranny is
service free.

On an 'ordinary' car you service the engine and brakes, etc, The
tranny is service free. Your point was?



It has I just told you.

No you added some extras that do not affect the fundemental
functionallity of a PC. Mind you, I don't find a CDRom 'exciting'.

Petrol car, 4 pistons, petrol in, exhaust out ... electric cart,
battery, motor .. , Wright Brothers, aeroplane, wings, engine .. no
anti gravity or time travel .. get the idea?

Nope. You are confused.

Ok, your flying carpet (Prius) .. please tick off the list if it will
help you undersand the point ..

Engine using reciprocating pistons turning a crankshaft.
A container of fuel
Internal combustion
Exhaut system

Get it yet, exactly the same as year 1900.

They didn't have electric transmission and electric assist, and ultra low
emissions. You are confused.

And you and choosing to miss the point again. I said the basics were
there for most of yer Prius (IC / Electric) were there 100 years ago.
Nothing noteworthy has changed over the last 100 years.

T i m

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Mr Cranium, just for you: AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that
averaged 65 mpg in central London.

Define average in this context.

A responsible magazine like Autocar would have given the distance the
average was arrived from.

But Auto Express is a tabloid newspaper aimed at Sun readers.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:33:44 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

I bet the Toyota dealer took all his staff go-carting when they got
rid of the (soon to be obsolete) MK1 Prius on you .. ;-)

I have a Mk 2, new in 04.

And what did you drive before that btw .. or did they run you about in
the 'short bus'?

The best car in the world.

Of couse.

T i m

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again, and repeat it 10 times now, AutoExpress got 65mpg in
central
London in a Prius. There, there.

And they say it's fitted with a CVT. There, there.

Which it isn't. How long have you been like this?

Since you've quoted

You are a total madman. The Prius has the engine and electric motor power
simultaneously to elinminate a gearbox/CVT. I know, I have one.

Get help.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:33:44 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

I bet the Toyota dealer took all his staff go-carting when they got
rid of the (soon to be obsolete) MK1 Prius on you .. ;-)

I have a Mk 2, new in 04.

And what did you drive before that btw ..

Not crappy diesel, or an antiquated EV or a motor bike, as I have sense.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:24:27 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:33:44 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

I bet the Toyota dealer took all his staff go-carting when they got
rid of the (soon to be obsolete) MK1 Prius on you .. ;-)

I have a Mk 2, new in 04.

And what did you drive before that btw ..

Not crappy diesel, or an antiquated EV or a motor bike, as I have sense.

Can't remember can you ... "Nurse" ..

T i m

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Mr Cranium, just for you: AutoExpress had a new Toyota Prius that
averaged 65 mpg in central London.

Define average

He doesn't know what average means? Sad isn't it.