Chip wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:15:31 GMT,it is alleged that "PC Paul"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

John Cartmell wrote:
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Possibly, and how many of those sockets you need will ever be used
for anything over 2Kw?

One will have a heater attached whilst many of the others will be
running computers that require no more power than 2 or 3 AA
batteries could provide.

But I was illustrating that times change.

I wish they would introduce a small, low power (2A?) plug/socket so
my PC setup (currently using 9 13A sockets) could be done with a lot
less space...

IEC plugs and sockets maybe? Power strips (distribution boards) in
this format are readily available and they're rated at a healthy 10 or
6 amps (depending on manufacturer). The length per socket is about 3/4
inch.

http://www.dataandpower.com/gallery/...ic0001_jpg.jpg

Been there, used them. Still a bit bulky really (and rated for 13A still).

And in any case many of the sockets are filled with PSUs for various gadgets
(scanner, printer, LCD etc.) which can't be replaced with a male-female IEC
lead.

USB powered devices help, but I wish a standard would emerge where a single
large low voltage (+12V,+5V?) supply could feed a number of devices.

PC Paul wrote:

I wish they would introduce a small, low power (2A?) plug/socket so my PC
setup (currently using 9 13A sockets) could be done with a lot less space...

I designed one thats compatible with existing 13A sockets, and sockets
that will take either 2x 3 pin plugs or 6x 2 pinners. Wouldnt have the
first idea what to do with it though.

This is the one thing I liked about the old French round pin system,
very compact. Plus you could use the adaptors christmas tree style,
with 10-20 plugs in one mains socket.

IECs arent a good solution imho, since theyre incompatible, making your
appliances not pluginnable wherever you want. Imho its the very
opposite of a move forward. The most fundamental point of plugs and
sockets is that you can plug the things in. With IECs you routinely
cant. Unless of coruse you install them everywhere.


NT

PC Paul wrote:

USB powered devices help, but I wish a standard would emerge where a single
large low voltage (+12V,+5V?) supply could feed a number of devices.

Do you mean on computers only, or round the house? Compauters do have a
standard, but its not used. But thats easy to change. The 4 pin
connector used on HDD, CDROM etc. Just remove a plate on the back and
poke one or 2 out to the world, and you can use it to run your scanner,
speakers, sometimes printer, etc. It gives 5 and 12v, and if you need
9v just use 12 via 3 dropping diodes. 5v is not 6v but seems to run 6v
goods ok in practice.

It seems silly to sell a computer system containnig 2 or 3 wall warts
when the maker could just use 2 or 3 more of these already standard and
already in use connectors.


NT

In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
I wish they would introduce a small, low power (2A?) plug/socket so my
PC setup (currently using 9 13A sockets) could be done with a lot less
space...

There are distribution blocks using a variation of the IEC connector that
take up much less space than 13 amp sockets. But, of course, it means
changing all the moulded on 13 amp plugs.

--
*Toilet stolen from police station. Cops have nothing to go on.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote:
PC Paul wrote:

USB powered devices help, but I wish a standard would emerge where a
single large low voltage (+12V,+5V?) supply could feed a number of
devices.

Do you mean on computers only, or round the house? Compauters do have
a standard, but its not used. But thats easy to change. The 4 pin
connector used on HDD, CDROM etc. Just remove a plate on the back and
poke one or 2 out to the world, and you can use it to run your
scanner, speakers, sometimes printer, etc. It gives 5 and 12v, and if
you need 9v just use 12 via 3 dropping diodes. 5v is not 6v but seems
to run 6v goods ok in practice.

It seems silly to sell a computer system containnig 2 or 3 wall warts
when the maker could just use 2 or 3 more of these already standard
and already in use connectors.


Molex connectors.. I know I could do that (indeed I do already to get a high
current +5V and +12V bench supply from an old ATX PSU by shorting the right
pins..).

It's more having a standard I was wishing for.. and all sorts of gadgets
using it. rather than having to make up different connectors, different
voltages etc all the time.

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Owain" wrote
Anyway, it only takes a moment to move a wire from a 16A socket MCB
to the 45A shower MCB in the CU.
Yes, and I can really see a 80 year old 'Granny Mabble' doing that,
her replacing a 3A fuse with a 13A one is almost a certain bet at
somewhere....

So? Most appliances will cope with a 13A plug fuse - they have to, to
cope with 16A or 20A radial circuits.

You still seem obsessed with plug fuses. Unlike most radial socket
systems, which evolved from a hodge-podge of accessory designs, the
British ring circuit with fused plugs was *designed* from the outset to
be a coherent and well-engineered system.

Owain

In article ,
wrote:
So? Most appliances will cope with a 13A plug fuse - they have to, to
cope with 16A or 20A radial circuits.

You still seem obsessed with plug fuses. Unlike most radial socket
systems, which evolved from a hodge-podge of accessory designs, the
British ring circuit with fused plugs was *designed* from the outset
to be a coherent and well-engineered system.

What! with at least three different designs of 13A plugs and sockets?
There was a round pin one with a fuse as live pin (very dangerous when
it became detached and stuck out of the socket) and a slot in the earth
pin, and one with two flat pins either side of a hollow circular earth
pin. There may have been others. Hardly coherent!

When last did you see these in a new installation? But inadequately fused
final circuits - to protect appliances etc - are still common round the
world. After all, the maximum fuse on a ring main is 13 amps, while
radials are usually 20 amps.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Owain" wrote
Anyway, it only takes a moment to move a wire from a 16A socket
MCB
to the 45A shower MCB in the CU.
Yes, and I can really see a 80 year old 'Granny Mabble' doing
that,
her replacing a 3A fuse with a 13A one is almost a certain bet at
somewhere....

So? Most appliances will cope with a 13A plug fuse - they have to,
to
cope with 16A or 20A radial circuits.

So, what you are saying is, plug fuses are irrelevant...


You still seem obsessed with plug fuses. Unlike most radial socket
systems, which evolved from a hodge-podge of accessory designs, the
British ring circuit with fused plugs was *designed* from the
outset to
be a coherent and well-engineered system.


As would any new system would, the 'hodge-podge' (as you call it) was
caused buy different manufactures producing what they though was the
'perfect' design of socket / plug or what ever and a miss-matched
collection of regulations / distribution voltages etc.

You are repeatedly failing to understand that I'm NOT suggestion a
return to pre 1950's but a modern standard that removes the ability
for the user to make stupid mistakes.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip
world. After all, the maximum fuse on a ring main is 13 amps,
while
radials are usually 20 amps.


Err, no, maximum fuse on a ring circuit in the UK is 30A, if some
idiot bridges the BS1363 type plug fuse.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
world. After all, the maximum fuse on a ring main is 13 amps, while
radials are usually 20 amps.

Err, no, maximum fuse on a ring circuit in the UK is 30A, if some
idiot bridges the BS1363 type plug fuse.

You seem obsessed with people bypassing plug fuses, but not messing with
the circuit protection? Just why and when would you bridge a 13 amp fuse?
If an appliance is blowing 13 amp fuses, then bridging that fuse is likely
to cause a fire.

Strikes me you're referring to some of the dodgy body shops you've worked
in where they've used 13 amp sockets for compressors and welders etc too
powerful for them. And ring main circuits were never intended for fixed
heavy loads such as these, but for general domestic use.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" wrote:



You are repeatedly failing to understand that I'm NOT suggestion a
return to pre 1950's but a modern standard that removes the ability
for the user to make stupid mistakes.



This is an interesting idea, and since this thread is already up to a
couple of hundred posts, anyone mind if I take it to a new thread?

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Pop Tarts. Perhaps the most disgusting thing you can put in a toaster.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
world. After all, the maximum fuse on a ring main is 13 amps,
while
radials are usually 20 amps.

Err, no, maximum fuse on a ring circuit in the UK is 30A, if some
idiot bridges the BS1363 type plug fuse.

You seem obsessed with people bypassing plug fuses, but not messing
with
the circuit protection? Just why and when would you bridge a 13 amp
fuse?
If an appliance is blowing 13 amp fuses, then bridging that fuse is
likely
to cause a fire.

Exactly !....

That's the point, anyone without any knowledge, expertise or
understanding can *easily* abuse the protection device within a
BS1363 plug, it's all but designed to be worked on by such people -
modern moulded on plugs don't even need the use of a tool (as in
unfastening)to access the fuse.


Strikes me you're referring to some of the dodgy body shops you've
worked
in where they've used 13 amp sockets for compressors and welders
etc too
powerful for them. And ring main circuits were never intended for
fixed
heavy loads such as these, but for general domestic use.


No, just ignorant people living in 'house-holds' were they are all
technically challenged - why do you think it was made mandatory (in
the UK) for new appliances etc. to come ready fitted with a BS1363
plug - it wasn't people objecting to having to buy a plug on top of
the appliance purchase price.

Anyway, hasn't there some dodgy wiring / connectors used in TV
industry over the years?....

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Strikes me you're referring to some of the dodgy body shops you've
worked in where they've used 13 amp sockets for compressors and welders
etc too powerful for them. And ring main circuits were never intended
for fixed heavy loads such as these, but for general domestic use.


No, just ignorant people living in 'house-holds' were they are all
technically challenged - why do you think it was made mandatory (in
the UK) for new appliances etc. to come ready fitted with a BS1363
plug - it wasn't people objecting to having to buy a plug on top of
the appliance purchase price.

It certainly was. And since the 13 amp plug wasn't universal - and still
isn't - makers would save any pennies they could. And then there's the
fact that not everyone can wire up a plug correctly - can you just
imagined Drivel trying with nothing but his hacksaw?

Anyway, hasn't there some dodgy wiring / connectors used in TV
industry over the years?....

Yes. Plenty. But that doesn't alter the fact that the 13 amp system is
ideal for *domestic* use.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Strikes me you're referring to some of the dodgy body shops
you've
worked in where they've used 13 amp sockets for compressors and
welders
etc too powerful for them. And ring main circuits were never
intended
for fixed heavy loads such as these, but for general domestic
use.


No, just ignorant people living in 'house-holds' were they are
all
technically challenged - why do you think it was made mandatory
(in
the UK) for new appliances etc. to come ready fitted with a
BS1363
plug - it wasn't people objecting to having to buy a plug on top
of
the appliance purchase price.

It certainly was. And since the 13 amp plug wasn't universal - and
still
isn't - makers would save any pennies they could. And then there's
the
fact that not everyone can wire up a plug correctly - can you just
imagined Drivel trying with nothing but his hacksaw?

Yes I can, and the BS1363 plug allows such people to use a hacksaw
(or knife) blade to access the fuse...


Anyway, hasn't there some dodgy wiring / connectors used in TV
industry over the years?....

Yes. Plenty. But that doesn't alter the fact that the 13 amp system
is
ideal for *domestic* use.


Any system is 'ideal', it's whether it's the best, safest or the most
appropriate. At the time that the 30A ring and BS1363 type plugs and
sockets were established as the 'default' for final power circuits it
was the best, safest, and most appropriate, what I'm questioning is
whether it still is.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
world. After all, the maximum fuse on a ring main is 13 amps, while
radials are usually 20 amps.

Err, no, maximum fuse on a ring circuit in the UK is 30A, if some
idiot bridges the BS1363 type plug fuse.

You seem obsessed with people bypassing plug fuses,

What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a idiot user
cannot by-pass the protection, as often happens on 30A ring when the fuse
blows and they don't have a spare. The temporary measure of a piece of
copper end a permanent one. That is clear. Boy are you dumb. So take that
copper wire out of your 13A plugs now.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a idiot
user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because there isn't any for the appliance on a radial, unless you
also use a fused plug. Don't you understand even the basics?
The fuse in the plug protects the appliance wiring. That in the CU, the
house wiring. Unless you want dedicated radials for each and every
appliance, correctly sized.

as often happens on 30A ring when the fuse
blows and they don't have a spare. The temporary measure of a piece of
copper end a permanent one. That is clear.

So you think everyone has a supply of pieces of copper but not spare fuses?

So take that copper wire out of your 13A plugs now.

You seem an expert on doing this. Another use for your hacksaw - cutting
up copper rod to make fuses. Oblivious of the fact that it costs more than
fuses which can be bought at any 24 hour convenience store.

Knowing your electrical 'knowledge' you probably think a lump of copper
will let through more electricity than a fuse, and improve the performance
of your cheap rubbish power tools.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a idiot
user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because there isn't any for the appliance on a radial, unless you
also use a fused plug.

You don't say......Wow!!!!!

snip wandering babble.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a
idiot user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because there isn't any for the appliance on a radial, unless
you also use a fused plug.

You don't say......Wow!!!!!

Ah - so you now understand this unlike your drivel about feeding a CU in a
garage?

Glad to know you do learn - sometimes. But best not to play with
electricity until you understand a great deal more, there's a chap.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip

as often happens on 30A ring when the fuse
blows and they don't have a spare. The temporary measure of a
piece of
copper end a permanent one. That is clear.

So you think everyone has a supply of pieces of copper but not
spare fuses?


The point is, it's possible, that the point - and the idiots don't
need anything more than a tea-spoon to gain access to do it with
these moulded on plugs now...

Perhaps moulded on plugs should be banned and the two halves of the
plug be held together with a security fixing [1], then at least
idiots have got to source the correct tool...

[1] of a type that can be removed with the correct tool

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
as often happens on 30A ring when the fuse blows and they don't have
a spare. The temporary measure of a piece of copper end a permanent
one. That is clear.

So you think everyone has a supply of pieces of copper but not spare
fuses?


The point is, it's possible, that the point - and the idiots don't
need anything more than a tea-spoon to gain access to do it with
these moulded on plugs now...

Some don't need any tools at all.

Perhaps moulded on plugs should be banned and the two halves of the
plug be held together with a security fixing [1], then at least
idiots have got to source the correct tool...

But resourceful idiots will find a way. Drivel with his hacksaw springs to
mind.

[1] of a type that can be removed with the correct tool

--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a
idiot user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because there isn't any for the appliance on a radial, unless
you also use a fused plug.

You don't say......Wow!!!!!

Ah -

Please don't go on.

it was actually more drivel that had to be snipped

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Knowing your electrical 'knowledge' you probably think a lump of copper
will let through more electricity than a fuse, and improve the performance
of your cheap rubbish power tools.

Well it works with hi-fi doesn't it ;-)

Owain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a idiot
user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because

Unable to grasp a simple.

snip rambling senile drivel

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a idiot
user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because

Unable to grasp a simple.

Well, true, because you're not within range.

Seek treatment for your alcohol addiction.

snip rambling senile drivel

You really need to take a look at your lifestyle. AA could be a help.
But ask your doctor for advice on a quick de-tox.

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

What he is clearly telling you, is that with a radial circuit a
idiot
user cannot by-pass the protection,

That's because

Unable to grasp a simple.

Well, true,

Then get treatment

snip babble

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Unable to grasp a simple.

Well, true, because you're not within range.

Seek treatment for your alcohol addiction.

snip rambling senile drivel

You really need to take a look at your lifestyle. AA could be a help.
But ask your doctor for advice on a quick de-tox.

Then get treatment

Doesn't really make sense Drivel. Denial is a terrible thing.

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Unable to grasp a simple.

Well, true, because you're not within range.

Seek treatment for your alcohol addiction.

snip rambling senile drivel

You really need to take a look at your lifestyle. AA could be a help.
But ask your doctor for advice on a quick de-tox.

Then get treatment

Doesn't really make sense

Nothing makes sense to you. Get professional help.