Andrew Gabriel wrote:
What washing detergent do you use?
I normally use Persil Bio. I've heard Ecover is complete crap.

Ecover washing-up liquid is quite nice in the bath.

Owain

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
And the result is washing machines which give you back clothes in more
or less the same filthy state as when you put them in! So you have to
wash them 2 or 3 times and the energy efficiency is unbelievably bad.
I'm still regretting not rebuilding my old washing machine when it lost
it's bearings, the local noise level is sometimes near deafening when
she looks at the results of the new machine.

I recently bought a Meile which uses a tiny amount of water compared to
the old front loader, and it washes every bit as well and with a fraction
of the noise. It's so quiet I'm happy to use it overnight if needed.

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Huge wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:

I recently bought a Meile which uses a tiny amount of water compared to
the old front loader, and it washes every bit as well and with a fraction
of the noise. It's so quiet I'm happy to use it overnight if needed.

How does it differ from a Miele?

It doesnt make such a Miele of it.

NT

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:21:54 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:


All a 30amp ring needs to become dangerous an unfused plug.


No, because you can't buy them.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:29:53 +0100,it is alleged that Andy Hall
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:21:54 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:


All a 30amp ring needs to become dangerous an unfused plug.


No, because you can't buy them.

I see your 'can't buy them' and raise you nails and/or bits of 30A
fusewire wrapped round the fuse g

In fairness to both sides here, neither system is dangerous *as
designed*. Both can become dangerous due to consumer misuse.

Good British example is the above mentioned fuse-substitutes (although
thankfully the public are getting better about this) and the antique
and fortunately now rare unfused double adapters.

A good American example is the 13 amp extension cords/triple adapters
that many people will happily plug a total of 13 amps and 20 amps
into and wonder why it goes all Salvador Dali looking.

--
The follies which a man regrets most in his life are those
which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity.
- Helen Rowland

In article t,
Chip wrote:
No, because you can't buy them.

I see your 'can't buy them' and raise you nails and/or bits of 30A
fusewire wrapped round the fuse g

You can make things foolproof, idiot proof, but not c**t proof.

In fairness to both sides here, neither system is dangerous *as
designed*. Both can become dangerous due to consumer misuse.

No, a ring main cannot be abused. The main breaker will trip.

Good British example is the above mentioned fuse-substitutes (although
thankfully the public are getting better about this) and the antique
and fortunately now rare unfused double adapters.

Never seen one. But with the ring main system, if properly implemented,
adaptors shouldn't be needed. There should be adequate sockets.

A good American example is the 13 amp extension cords/triple adapters
that many people will happily plug a total of 13 amps and 20 amps
into and wonder why it goes all Salvador Dali looking.

UK extension cords are supplied with the correct fuse fitted to the plug
to prevent any such nonsense.

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article t,
Chip wrote:
snip

A good American example is the 13 amp extension cords/triple
adapters
that many people will happily plug a total of 13 amps and 20
amps
into and wonder why it goes all Salvador Dali looking.

UK extension cords are supplied with the correct fuse fitted to the
plug
to prevent any such nonsense.


But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.

That could not happen if the protection device was back at the board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as used in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to abuse.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:25:53 +0100,it is alleged that ":::Jerry::::"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:



[snip]


But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.

Probably millions. I replaced all our 5 amp extensions with 13 amp
ones using 1.5mm flex.

That could not happen if the protection device was back at the board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

Or indeed just needed a switch flipped to reset it.

IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as used in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to abuse.

Totally agreed, it would increase the initial cost quite significantly
though, you'd need many many more ways in the consumer unit, we'd have
to use US style distribution panels rather than small consumer units.

Worthwhile in my opinion, but people want the cheapest they can get.

--
This .signature has been hijacked by the Shellfish Liberation Army.
Please remain clam.

Chip wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:29:53 +0100,it is alleged that Andy Hall
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:21:54 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:

Both can become dangerous due to consumer misuse.

yes, any system can.

If you wire it up without any CU, using choc block on the meter tails,
as has been done, and stick bolts in the plug fuse holders, as has been
done, you can expect a Darwin award.

At least here we dont have anyone so dumb they made a shampoo bottle
into a floating mains socket for use *IN* their pool.


Good British example is the above mentioned fuse-substitutes (although
thankfully the public are getting better about this) and the antique
and fortunately now rare unfused double adapters.

Theyre not antique, and are common. I was still buying them new in the
90s, and used them en masse in extension leads. Safely I might add.

They were allowed for so long because in practice they have not caused
problems. Think what happens when you plug 6kW continuous into one
adaptor... not many people could tolerate that much heat for long
enough for it to fry. And very few are quite that dumb. 3kW
intermittent they will tolerate.

But I swore I wouldnt get sucked back into this silly thread.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

At least here we dont have anyone so dumb they made a shampoo
bottle
into a floating mains socket for use *IN* their pool.

Probably because private swimming pools are still not that common in
the UK...

wrote in message
oups.com...

At least here we dont have anyone so dumb they made a shampoo bottle
into a floating mains socket for use *IN* their pool.

That sounds good.. do you have any tips?
How many 3 bars fires will I need sink to heat a 24x15 pool to 75F in
January?
Will they all work of one ring?

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
UK extension cords are supplied with the correct fuse fitted to the
plug to prevent any such nonsense.

But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.

How many people would run a 3kW fire from an extension? But in any case,
the extension will be clearly marked with its maximum load. If an idiot
doesn't understand that then perhaps Darwin should apply?

That could not happen if the protection device was back at the board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as used in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to abuse.

No it's not if the guidelines are followed. If it were 'open to abuse' it
would have been superseded.

--
*A backward poet writes inverse.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

dennis@home wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

At least here we dont have anyone so dumb they made a shampoo bottle
into a floating mains socket for use *IN* their pool.

That sounds good.. do you have any tips?
How many 3 bars fires will I need sink to heat a 24x15 pool to 75F in
January?

Probably less than you'd think, since they'll act as electrode heaters
as well as element heaters.


Will they all work of one ring?

For a bit... the fuse should pop when the waters reached about the
right temp. Your MTBF might be on the low side though. As might your
family's MTTD.


NT

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
UK extension cords are supplied with the correct fuse fitted to
the
plug to prevent any such nonsense.

But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when
they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.

How many people would run a 3kW fire from an extension? But in any
case,
the extension will be clearly marked with its maximum load. If an
idiot
doesn't understand that then perhaps Darwin should apply?

Perhaps, but then things are meant to be made safer, if Darwinism is
the way to go - bare wires straight off the meter and crock-clips
around the house....


That could not happen if the protection device was back at the
board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as used
in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to
abuse.

No it's not if the guidelines are followed. If it were 'open to
abuse' it
would have been superseded.


There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug, replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years before
all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse, how
many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied 13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all' solution
that is open to abuse.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug, replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years before
all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse, how
many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied 13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all' solution
that is open to abuse.

And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop an idiot
using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?

--
*Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug,
replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so
easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so
yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years
before
all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse,
how
many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied
13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all'
solution
that is open to abuse.

And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop an
idiot
using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug, replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years before
all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse, how
many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied 13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all' solution
that is open to abuse.


Decades ago we had exactly that system. All sockets were on radials,
all fused at the fuseboard. There were 3 ratings, 2A, 5A and 15A,
ensuring each apliance was ideally fused. Each appliance had the right
plug fitted, and there was no plug fuse to tamper with.

There are a veritable list of good reasons why we moved away from that
system to what we now have. It was riddled with problems inherent in
its design, as well as the more well known problems in its
implementation.

The whole point of having fused plugs is that a faulty appliance that
pops a fuse is disconnected, so if its plugged in again, to another
socket, it isnt live once more, and dangerous once more.

The whole point of having appliance fuses in plugs rather than at the
fuseboard is so that it is practically possible to fit the right fuse.
It doesnt guarantee it by any means, but it means the right fuse will
frequently be used. When the fuse is at the board, the applince will
simply use whatever fuse supplise that socket, regardless.

The whole point of having both a plug fuse AND a fuseboard fuse or mcb
is that if one is defeated, there is a backup still working.

The whole point of rings instead of radials is to increase safety,
reliability and socket availability.


As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all' solution
that is open to abuse.

EVERY system is open to abuse. Our ring system puts safety backups in
place in case of abuse. Your all-radial vision does not.

And your radial system leaves dangerously faulty appliances in a
dangerous state. And the risk of fixed wiring fire is significantly
higher, and so on.

Does anyone understand the ring system these days?


NT

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

--
*A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

And nails in the fuse box

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop
an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to

I was actualy...

see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.


But that is not what you originally implied, someone trying to run a
3kw heater off a 5amp supply. What is the difference between someone
running a 5amp load off a 15amp radial circuit and someone leaving a
13amp fuse in a BS 1363 type plug, or worse still, using that bolt to
bridge out were the fuse goes and thus protecting something at 30amp
rather than the correct 5amp ?...

wrote in message
ups.com...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug,
replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so
easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so
yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years
before
all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse,
how
many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied
13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all'
solution
that is open to abuse.


Decades ago we had exactly that system. All sockets were on
radials,
all fused at the fuseboard. There were 3 ratings, 2A, 5A and 15A,
ensuring each apliance was ideally fused. Each appliance had the
right
plug fitted, and there was no plug fuse to tamper with.

There are a veritable list of good reasons why we moved away from
that
system to what we now have. It was riddled with problems inherent
in
its design, as well as the more well known problems in its
implementation.

The whole point of having fused plugs is that a faulty appliance
that
pops a fuse is disconnected, so if its plugged in again, to another
socket, it isnt live once more, and dangerous once more.

The whole point of having appliance fuses in plugs rather than at
the
fuseboard is so that it is practically possible to fit the right
fuse.
It doesnt guarantee it by any means, but it means the right fuse
will
frequently be used. When the fuse is at the board, the applince
will
simply use whatever fuse supplise that socket, regardless.

The whole point of having both a plug fuse AND a fuseboard fuse or
mcb
is that if one is defeated, there is a backup still working.

The whole point of rings instead of radials is to increase safety,
reliability and socket availability.


As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all'
solution
that is open to abuse.

EVERY system is open to abuse. Our ring system puts safety backups
in
place in case of abuse. Your all-radial vision does not.

Only if abused by idiots, as is any system.


And your radial system leaves dangerously faulty appliances in a
dangerous state. And the risk of fixed wiring fire is significantly
higher, and so on.

Only if someone is daft enough not to recognise that the appliance is
faulty, or are you saying that the final protection is somehow
different on a radial circuit?

Any way, if someone puts another fuse into a BS1363 type plug, the
appliance is again dangerously faulty, and will again trip it's
protection device. You seem to be making an argument for totally fix
wiring, with all appliances connected via FCU's !...

As for fire risk, how is it any higher on a correctly protected
radial circuit than a correctly protected ring circuit - if you are
correct why do we still use radial circuits in houses even today ?!


Does anyone understand the ring system these days?


I suspect more than you think, and many can see the problems with it.

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop
an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

And nails in the fuse box


A bit like now, what with people bridging the fuse space of BS1363
plugs with nails or bolts and replacing fuse wire with large cross
section wire that would still be good for many hundreds of amps.....

No system is going to prevent blatant abuse, the problem with the
BS1363 type plug and 30amp ring circuit is that it's far to easy for
someone to fit an incorrectly rated fuse and not even be ware that
they have done anything wrong.

In article ,
EricP wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

And nails in the fuse box

And irons plugged into ceiling lights.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ,
EricP wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to
stop an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

And nails in the fuse box

And irons plugged into ceiling lights.


Apart from education, the non supply of bayonet plugs and the
correctly rated protection of those circuits, what is there to stop
some idiot doing that today ?

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to stop
an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to

I was actualy...

see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.


But that is not what you originally implied, someone trying to run a 3kw
heater off a 5amp supply.

No - I said using a 5 amp plug. Didn't say anything about the supply,
which were usually a 15 amp radial.

What is the difference between someone running
a 5amp load off a 15amp radial circuit and someone leaving a 13amp fuse
in a BS 1363 type plug, or worse still, using that bolt to bridge out
were the fuse goes and thus protecting something at 30amp rather than
the correct 5amp ?...

The fuse in the plug top is to protect the appliance - not the circuit. If
you overload the appliance - or in this case extension lead - it will be
obvious by the smoke. Overloading a circuit with concealed cables is a
different matter

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
No system is going to prevent blatant abuse, the problem with the
BS1363 type plug and 30amp ring circuit is that it's far to easy for
someone to fit an incorrectly rated fuse and not even be ware that
they have done anything wrong.

Given they are different colours I'd say it's impossible to do without
knowing.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

This thread has got the ring/radial issue mixed up with
local/central circuit protection. I'm not going to try and
unravel that confusion now as it will just complicate the
thread further, but the two issues are really quite unrelated.
Further comments interleaved...

In article ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ews.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.
That could not happen if the protection device was back at the board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

What happens instead is, "Oh, I wonder which appliance blew the fuse?"
Start trying them all in another circuit, and eventually BANG!.
"Oh it must be this one". That's the best result in this circumstance
-- you only blew the circuit protection twice and generated two small
explosions in some appliance, which is the best you can do with such
poor circuit/appliance protection. The not so good result is you try
them all and they all work fine. So now you have a faulty appliance,
you don't know which, and you're going to carry on using it until it
fails again, maybe worse next time.

IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as used in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to abuse.

Yes, well you don't understand it. But don't worry, that's
quite common.

The design starts by looking to see where the failures tend to
be. They tend to be in the appliances and appliance cord, i.e.
the parts which get moved around, and not in the fixed wiring
which is generally well protected from degrading effects. So
to localise such failures, protection is applied at the start
of the common failure path, which is the appliance plug. This
has a big advantage that the protection is intimately associated
with the item it protects, so when you have a faulty appliance,
there is never any question of which appliance it is (ignoring
RCD's, which are a later 'problem'), or of moving the faulty
appliance to a different socket and continuing to use it.

There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug, replacing a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years before

Strange that the EU countries with radial circuits generally
have twice as many electrical incidents as we do (and that's
ignoring the ones with poor quality wiring).

all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse, how

Well, that's because prior to around 1970, it wass illegal to
supply an appliance with a plug in case it was the wrong type,
someone cut it off, and then stuck the resulting loose plug
and exposed flex into a socket. That was just one tiny part of
the problem of having multiple socket types. By 1970 (can't
remember the exact year), judgement was that sockets other than
13A were now sufficiently rare that the law could be changed to
require a BS1363 plug to be fitted to all appliances which were
expected to be plugged in to a socket.

many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied 13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

All new appliances nowadays are required to remain safe with 16A
protection, so actually you can leave a 13A fuse in everything
sold in last 10-20 years. Exceptions are old appliances with
longer thinner flexes (which are no longer allowed), and extension
cords, whose ratings are horribly complicated anyway, but you
aren't going to dangerously overload any extension cord you buy
today at 13A providing you fully unwind and don't cover it (there
are other complications though).

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all' solution
that is open to abuse.

But seems to be around twice as safe as most of its EU
alternatives, fortunately for us.

--
Andrew Gabriel

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com..

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all'
solution
that is open to abuse.

EVERY system is open to abuse. Our ring system puts safety backups
in
place in case of abuse. Your all-radial vision does not.

Only if abused by idiots, as is any system.


And your radial system leaves dangerously faulty appliances in a
dangerous state. And the risk of fixed wiring fire is significantly
higher, and so on.

Only if someone is daft enough not to recognise that the appliance is
faulty, or are you saying that the final protection is somehow
different on a radial circuit?

Any way, if someone puts another fuse into a BS1363 type plug, the
appliance is again dangerously faulty, and will again trip it's
protection device. You seem to be making an argument for totally fix
wiring, with all appliances connected via FCU's !...

As for fire risk, how is it any higher on a correctly protected
radial circuit than a correctly protected ring circuit - if you are
correct why do we still use radial circuits in houses even today ?!


Does anyone understand the ring system these days?


I suspect more than you think, and many can see the problems with it.


The only thing you demonstrate is that you fail to grasp the basic
principles of our modern ring system, or even basic electrical safety
principles. I'm sorry but I dont have the patience or the desire to
continue this discussion.


NT

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
This thread has got the ring/radial issue mixed up with
local/central circuit protection. I'm not going to try and
unravel that confusion now as it will just complicate the
thread further, but the two issues are really quite unrelated.

Yes theyre different issues, I was just responding to his unlikely
vision of an unfused plug all radial system. How he intends to
implement multiple fusing requirements into that I didnt even ask.


Further comments interleaved...

Good luck.


NT

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:12:36 +0100,it is alleged that ":::Jerry::::"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ,
EricP wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

In article
ews.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to
stop an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to
see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.

And nails in the fuse box

And irons plugged into ceiling lights.


Apart from education, the non supply of bayonet plugs and the
correctly rated protection of those circuits, what is there to stop
some idiot doing that today ?

Nothing, also, irons then were probably 750w maximum, and not earthed,
so technically other than the mechanical stress on the pendant
fixture, nothing was wrong with doing that. Remember, older
lampholders were more solidly built and could probably handle up to 5
amps without a major issue.

--
This .signature has been hijacked by the Shellfish Liberation Army.
Please remain clam.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
No system is going to prevent blatant abuse, the problem with the
BS1363 type plug and 30amp ring circuit is that it's far to easy
for
someone to fit an incorrectly rated fuse and not even be ware
that
they have done anything wrong.

Given they are different colours I'd say it's impossible to do
without
knowing.


What shade of grey is a 3amp fuse, and what shade of grey is a 13amp
one, to someone with colour blindness or those with sight
problems?...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
And when there were different sizes of plugs, what was to
stop
an
idiot using a five amp one for a 3 kW heater?


True, but then the final protection would trip...

You weren't around in the days of those radial circuits? It was
common to

I was actualy...

see both 5 and 15 amp plugs on the same circuit.


But that is not what you originally implied, someone trying to
run a 3kw
heater off a 5amp supply.

No - I said using a 5 amp plug. Didn't say anything about the
supply,
which were usually a 15 amp radial.

True, but that is were the stuff below comes in.


What is the difference between someone running
a 5amp load off a 15amp radial circuit and someone leaving a
13amp fuse
in a BS 1363 type plug, or worse still, using that bolt to bridge
out
were the fuse goes and thus protecting something at 30amp rather
than
the correct 5amp ?...

The fuse in the plug top is to protect the appliance - not the
circuit.

So ?!

If
you overload the appliance - or in this case extension lead - it
will be
obvious by the smoke. Overloading a circuit with concealed cables
is a
different matter

But you won't because you have a fixed fuse or breaker that is rated
to protect the fixed wiring, there is nothing to stop some idiot
bridging the 30amp fuse protecting a ring circuit and thus leaving
the circuit protected only but the company fuse even now.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
This thread has got the ring/radial issue mixed up with
local/central circuit protection. I'm not going to try and
unravel that confusion now as it will just complicate the
thread further, but the two issues are really quite unrelated.
Further comments interleaved...

In article
ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ews.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But how many idiots then put the wrong rating of fuse in when
they
try to use a 5amp extension to supply a 3Kw fire.
That could not happen if the protection device was back at the
board
and needed more than a dining table knife blade to open...

What happens instead is, "Oh, I wonder which appliance blew the
fuse?"
Start trying them all in another circuit, and eventually BANG!.

Err, how many appliances are you plugging into a single outlet ?...

"Oh it must be this one". That's the best result in this
circumstance
-- you only blew the circuit protection twice and generated two
small
explosions in some appliance, which is the best you can do with
such
poor circuit/appliance protection.

Err, most people would replace the fuse and try the appliance again
anyway, exactly the same result.....

The not so good result is you try
them all and they all work fine. So now you have a faulty
appliance,
you don't know which, and you're going to carry on using it until
it
fails again, maybe worse next time.

See above......


IMO radial circuits were far safer from abuse, although they
were
more expencive to implement correctly, the ring circuit (as
used in
the UK) is a 'one size fits all' solution that is wide open to
abuse.

Yes, well you don't understand it. But don't worry, that's
quite common.

So protecting something at a 15 A rating is less safe than doing so
at 30 A when someone replaces the fuse in a BS1364 plug with a bolt
or what ever, as has happened ?....


The design starts by looking to see where the failures tend to
be. They tend to be in the appliances and appliance cord, i.e.
the parts which get moved around, and not in the fixed wiring
which is generally well protected from degrading effects. So
to localise such failures, protection is applied at the start
of the common failure path, which is the appliance plug. This
has a big advantage that the protection is intimately associated
with the item it protects, so when you have a faulty appliance,
there is never any question of which appliance it is (ignoring
RCD's, which are a later 'problem'), or of moving the faulty
appliance to a different socket and continuing to use it.

So still have local protection if that really is going to be a
problem.


There is nothing to stop any idiot, who can open a plug, replacing
a
3amp fuse with the shank of a 8mm bolt, with radial circuits and
final protection back at the distribution board that is not so
easy,
especially if that final protection is via circuit breakers - so
yes,
the final 'ring circuit' is wide open to abuse. It was years
before

Strange that the EU countries with radial circuits generally
have twice as many electrical incidents as we do (and that's
ignoring the ones with poor quality wiring).

all appliances came pre-fitted with plugs and the correct fuse,
how

Well, that's because prior to around 1970, it wass illegal to
supply an appliance with a plug in case it was the wrong type,
someone cut it off, and then stuck the resulting loose plug
and exposed flex into a socket. That was just one tiny part of
the problem of having multiple socket types. By 1970 (can't
remember the exact year), judgement was that sockets other than
13A were now sufficiently rare that the law could be changed to
require a BS1363 plug to be fitted to all appliances which were
expected to be plugged in to a socket.

Err, it became law in about 1990 IIRC, and as for sticking wires into
sockets, the non fitment of any plug increased that risk !


many people fitted a plug without then changing the supplied 13amp
fuse to the correct lower rating?...

All new appliances nowadays are required to remain safe with 16A
protection, so actually you can leave a 13A fuse in everything
sold in last 10-20 years.

But not 30A when some idiot uses a bolt to bridge the fuse....

Exceptions are old appliances with
longer thinner flexes (which are no longer allowed), and extension
cords, whose ratings are horribly complicated anyway, but you
aren't going to dangerously overload any extension cord you buy
today at 13A providing you fully unwind and don't cover it (there
are other complications though).

As I said, the final ring circuit is a 'one size fits all'
solution
that is open to abuse.

But seems to be around twice as safe as most of its EU
alternatives, fortunately for us.


More by luck and good education than the safety of the system I
suspect.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Given they are different colours I'd say it's impossible to do
without
knowing.


What shade of grey is a 3amp fuse, and what shade of grey is a 13amp
one, to someone with colour blindness or those with sight problems?...

Think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, Jerry.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But you won't because you have a fixed fuse or breaker that is rated
to protect the fixed wiring, there is nothing to stop some idiot
bridging the 30amp fuse protecting a ring circuit and thus leaving
the circuit protected only but the company fuse even now.

Yes, and they could remove the 30 amp MCB and replace it with a larger one.
And replace the company fuse with a nail. And weld the breaker together at
the substation.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:58:24 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ews.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
No system is going to prevent blatant abuse, the problem with the
BS1363 type plug and 30amp ring circuit is that it's far to easy
for
someone to fit an incorrectly rated fuse and not even be ware
that
they have done anything wrong.

Given they are different colours I'd say it's impossible to do
without
knowing.


What shade of grey is a 3amp fuse, and what shade of grey is a 13amp
one, to someone with colour blindness or those with sight
problems?...

I'd have thought that a person who is aware of their colour blindness
would have the common sense to use other means of discrimination of
fuse ratings, viz the rated current marking on the fuse eg 3, 5, 7 or
13A.

--
Frank Erskine

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But you won't because you have a fixed fuse or breaker that is
rated
to protect the fixed wiring, there is nothing to stop some idiot
bridging the 30amp fuse protecting a ring circuit and thus
leaving
the circuit protected only but the company fuse even now.

Yes, and they could remove the 30 amp MCB and replace it with a
larger one.
And replace the company fuse with a nail. And weld the breaker
together at
the substation.


Very unlikely, replacing a BS1363 plug fuse with something
inappropriate is very likely.

In article ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

But not 30A when some idiot uses a bolt to bridge the fuse....

You seem to have a bizzare fixation on one issue which
is pretty much a non-sequitur, whilst still failing to
understand the safety features designed into the system
as a whole.

Bare in mind the BS1363 plugs and sockets and the ring
circuit is the most recently designed power distribution
system for portable appliances in the world (that I know
of anyway), and sought to avoid all the problems the
pre-existing systems had, and didn't compromise itself
by trying to be backwards compatible with anything that
came before (unlike most other power distribution systems
in use today). Its safety speaks for itself when compared
to other systems in the world. I won't pretend it has no
issues or it could not be improved -- there have been a
number of improvements through its nearly 60 year life.
However, if you think you are seeing some major safety
issue compared with other power distribution systems,
most likely you are misunderstanding the design or you
are basing this on some faulty premise (such as any
widespread bypassing of BS1362 fuses, which just isn't
the case).

By all means look for ways of improving it further, but
you won't get very far if you keep concentrating on things
which aren't safety problems -- actually you are much more
likely to reduce safety by changing such things.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But you won't because you have a fixed fuse or breaker that is rated
to protect the fixed wiring, there is nothing to stop some idiot
bridging the 30amp fuse protecting a ring circuit and thus leaving
the circuit protected only but the company fuse even now.
Yes, and they could remove the 30 amp MCB and replace it with a larger one.
And replace the company fuse with a nail. And weld the breaker together at
the substation.

Or climb up a pylon with an extension lead and some crocodile clips.

I suppose pumping 33kV into the consumer unit would be one way of
getting hot water out of an electric shower.

Owain

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
snip

[ re the BS1363 plugs and sockets and the ring circuit ]

in use today). Its safety speaks for itself when compared
to other systems in the world.

As I said in the last couple of lines of the message you replied to,
I suspect the above is more to do with education than any safety
aspects the distribution system has by design, most of which can be
rendered useless by those without clue or knowledge without even
needing to think.