It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the
kind of thing that a few people here will know about.

I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) and
wired it into the mains last night. I purely intend the device to
provide backup power and mains cleaning for the boiler, telephone, DSL
modem/router and Wireless AP so it will have a teeny load on it.

Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that
seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their
charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the
chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car
battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised).

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

As always, thanks for any and all responses.

Seri

Seri wrote:
Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that
seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their
charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the
chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car
battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised).

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

They're scrap, the plates will be sulphated, or possibly shorting. You
can get "Bat-Aid" tablets at car shops which may make the batteries
better for a while (if you can get them in), but I think you'd be better
off just replacing them. You don't have to use the same physical sized ones.

Try buying part-used batteries on the geek surplus market (helps to be
local too). They're rated at a 10 year life but "real" UPSes often swap
them at 5. I've bought massive cells (twice the size of a car battery
cell) at =A31.50 each in the past, although I was buying a ton or two.

And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had
a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that
boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or
into a 19" rack cab full of kit.

In article .com, Seri wrote:

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

As always, thanks for any and all responses.

Seri


The batteries will most likely be knackered. They only last 2 - 5 years on
average. You will just have to replace them. I always try to use Yuasa
ones, others don't seem to have the same lifespan.

CPC seem to consistently be the cheapest too.

HTH

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.

The battery for this will be made up of lots of batteries all in series
to make up a high DC voltage.
If you are lucky, you may find that only one or two of the individual
batteries may be shot - you need a high discharge rate amp hour meter
in addition to just measuring the open circuit volts.

Beware the high DC voltages that lurk within!

I'm looking at replacing them, but the damn thing takes 16 of them wire
up in blocks of 4, the cheapest price for the same or equivalent I can
find is =A318 each. So just shy of =A3300 is a little more than I wanted
to spend at the moment....

Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic
R127R2P1 or
equivalent batteries from then that would be great! )

Thanks again

Seri

In article . com, wrote:
Try buying part-used batteries on the geek surplus market (helps to be
local too). They're rated at a 10 year life but "real" UPSes often swap
them at 5. I've bought massive cells (twice the size of a car battery
cell) at £1.50 each in the past, although I was buying a ton or two.


I wouldn't bother with used, you just can't be sure what you're getting.

Yuasa rate their batteries at 5 years on standby.

And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had
a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that
boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or
into a 19" rack cab full of kit.



I've *never* known any UPS to boil batteries and dump acid and I've replaced
batteries in maybe 50 over the years. Some of them were very deformed from
high temperatures but all held onto their contents.

You must be very unlucky!

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.

In article .com, Seri wrote:
I'm looking at replacing them, but the damn thing takes 16 of them wire
up in blocks of 4, the cheapest price for the same or equivalent I can
find is £18 each. So just shy of £300 is a little more than I wanted
to spend at the moment....

Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic
R127R2P1 or
equivalent batteries from then that would be great! )


Is that a 12V 7Ah?

The Yuasa equivalent from CPC is £12.79ea if you by more than 10.

Still a lot of cash though!

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.

The current Panasonics are 12V 7.2Ah so I'm presuming the Yuasa ones
would do the job. May have to order a few from CPC and see if I can
isolate which ones are 'most' dead in the current blocks.

Thanks!

Seri

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:55:42 UTC, "Seri" wrote:

The current Panasonics are 12V 7.2Ah so I'm presuming the Yuasa ones
would do the job. May have to order a few from CPC and see if I can
isolate which ones are 'most' dead in the current blocks.

What's the exact model number? (of the UPS)

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article .com,
"Seri" writes:

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

They are probably knackered. In a UPS, the capacity of the batteries
drops pretty linearly to zero after about 5 years, so they're usually
chucked out at about 3 years when the run time will have got too
short for the original application. Usually, the cheapest way to
replace them when integrated inside the UPS is to buy a new UPS;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 21 Apr 2005 06:46:07 -0700, Seri wrote:

Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic
R127R2P1 or equivalent batteries from then that would be great! )

Ask Bristol Batteries. Good price when I need to replace the two 12v
7A/hr jobbies in my small UPS.

http://www.bristolbatteries.com/

Love the colour scheme, not.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Well, just slid the thing forwards on the platform I made for it and on
the back it says it's a SU5000RM15U

I haven't yet hooked up to it with a console cable to see if it gives a
more precise model number.

Is that the number you were after?

Thanks

Seri

In article .com,
"Seri" says...
It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the
kind of thing that a few people here will know about.

I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) and
wired it into the mains last night. I purely intend the device to
provide backup power and mains cleaning for the boiler, telephone, DSL
modem/router and Wireless AP so it will have a teeny load on it.

Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that
seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their
charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the
chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car
battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised).

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

Lead-acid batteries don't like to be fully disharged and they don't
have "memory" like some other rechargeable chemistries. As yours are
sealed you can't use magic reviver potion in them (not that I'm
convinced that it works very well anyway). So you're going to have
to find some new batteries - if you're not bothered about it fitting
in the case you could atach any battery of the correct voltage and
about the right capacity, otherwise you can buy "proper" batteries
from a specialist supplier. Don't try using a battery of
significantly greater capacity as this may damage the charging
circuit.

In article .com,
Seri wrote:
Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that
seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their
charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the
chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car
battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised).

It might actually be worth while contacting APC directly and seeing they
have have deals for resurecting old batteries, or exchange programs. A
place I work with has done this in the past with good results.

Gordon

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:16:49 UTC, "Seri" wrote:

Well, just slid the thing forwards on the platform I made for it and on
the back it says it's a SU5000RM15U

Oh well. Looking up brand new batteries, they're 246 quid each (and I
think you need two, is that right?)

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Seri wrote:
It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem
the
kind of thing that a few people here will know about.

I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) and
wired it into the mains last night. I purely intend the device to
provide backup power and mains cleaning for the boiler, telephone,
DSL
modem/router and Wireless AP so it will have a teeny load on it.

Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it,
that
seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose
their
charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the
chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car
battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised).

Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make
it
healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging
them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them
constantly charging?

As always, thanks for any and all responses.

Seri


options:
1. open them and replace the electrolyte. This often gets lead acids
working well again, and costs peanuts
2. buy new set of deep cycle batteries
3. buy car batteries and know theyll be dead after 500 cycles
4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the old,
or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard.


NT

The damn thing takes four! At full capacity I think I could run the
freezer and electric oven off it (not that I would want to you
understand).

But yes, that's way more than I plan on spending for something that
SWMBO classes as 'one of his projects'....

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:56:40 UTC, "Seri" wrote:

The damn thing takes four! At full capacity I think I could run the
freezer and electric oven off it (not that I would want to you
understand).

Ha! Problem...

For the record, I have bought two (much smaller) APC battery packs
recently. The 'pattern' ones weren't much cheaper than APC ones and were
of fairly unknown quality. I had no time to make them up, either.

Cheapest place, with FREE carriage (not insignificant) was Amazon. Just
for the record...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Seri" wrote in message
oups.com...
It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the
kind of thing that a few people here will know about.

I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W)

3.7KW - christ how do you lift it, it weighs nearly 100KG!
and yes, you could easily run most ovens off it for a while!!

If you only want to protect the boiler, phone, router and AP, then it would
be far far far cheaper to just buy a new UPS!

What you have, is a £1700 whopper! designed to protect a small
village...well maybe not, but it is FAR in excess of what you need!
http://www.apcc.com/resource/include...ku=SU5000RMI5U)


http://www.apcc.com/products/runtime...?upsfamily=165
this shows the run time charts (yours is the last on the list)

Sparks...

wrote:

And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had
a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that
boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or
into a 19" rack cab full of kit.

I have always had good results with APC kit. I have only ever found one
that had a battery leak - then only fairly minor, discovered on
replacing the battery. All the others I have used have done long and
faithfull service without incident.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Gordon Henderson wrote:

It might actually be worth while contacting APC directly and seeing they
have have deals for resurecting old batteries, or exchange programs. A
place I work with has done this in the past with good results.

If you buy the official replacement packs they usually come with a
carton for returning the old one. They are usually five times the price
of CPC though.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Aren't the spade connectors on APC batteries a different size to "standard"
batteries to encourage punters to buy the APC branded replacements?
Gary

wrote in message
ups.com...
Try buying part-used batteries on the geek surplus market (helps to be
local too). They're rated at a 10 year life but "real" UPSes often swap
them at 5. I've bought massive cells (twice the size of a car battery
cell) at £1.50 each in the past, although I was buying a ton or two.

And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had
a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that
boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or
into a 19" rack cab full of kit.

In article ,
"Gary" writes:
Aren't the spade connectors on APC batteries a different size to "standard"
batteries to encourage punters to buy the APC branded replacements?

They're larger, but nothing that wasn't solvable by closing
up the female connector a bit with a pair of pliers.

Other issues are that you probably won't be able to reset the
battery change date, and that you must do a recalibration run
after a full charge, or the UPS won't know the battery capacity
has increased (if it's one of their more intelligent models).

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote:
3. buy car batteries and know theyll be dead after 500 cycles

Erm, with an UPS, isn't it the case that the batteries should hardly
ever be "cycled", but be fully charged almost all the time?

4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the old,
or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard.

Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this, no!

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
.... snipped

but nothing that wasn't solvable by closing
up the female connector a bit with a pair of pliers.

.... snipped

Now that's what I call DIY, I think SWMBO might complain ;-)

(sorry, back to the topic)

Chris Bacon wrote:
wrote:
3. buy car batteries and know theyll be dead after 500 cycles

Erm, with an UPS, isn't it the case that the batteries should hardly
ever be "cycled", but be fully charged almost all the time?

yep, its only in a power cut they get cycled. Hence you can use car
batts on UPSes. They wont last as long as deep cycle batteries. And
used working car batts r cheap... its a costcut option anyway.


4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the
old,
or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard.

Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this,
no!

Yep. Done it. The downside is they look completely unprofessional and
arent all solidly held together like commercial batts. Lead acid
technology is very basic. Any book on lead acids I've ever read has
complicated the sh1t out of it, and coincidentally, has been sponsored
by a battery manufacturer, ie its purpose is basically to dissuade
people from making their own for peanuts.


NT

On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, babbled like a
waterfall and said:

4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the
old,
or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard.

Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this,
no!

Yep. Done it. The downside is they look completely unprofessional and
arent all solidly held together like commercial batts. Lead acid
technology is very basic. Any book on lead acids I've ever read has
complicated the sh1t out of it, and coincidentally, has been sponsored
by a battery manufacturer, ie its purpose is basically to dissuade
people from making their own for peanuts.


NT

Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring
bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery?
Hence the reason for sealed plastic things at large cost.

In article ,
EricP writes:
Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring
bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery?
Hence the reason for sealed plastic things at large cost.

Prior to around 1940, there were plenty of dismantlable ones
used for valve radios. Any book of that time on radios will
include lots of details on caring for lead acid cells,
including replacing the electrolite, plates, cleaning out
the sludge, etc. Normally you took them back to the shop
for charging and maintenance, but lots of people DIY'ed
it. Actually, we had lots of them at school of the
rectangular glass tank type, where you could lift off the
top with the plates for maintenance. I think they all got
chucked out and replaced with mains power supplies quite
soon after I arrived though.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, wrote:

Lead acid
technology is very basic.

No it isn't. I once built a machine to test the machine that made the
plastic that went into the bags that kept the electrodes apart. Even my
machine was pretty tweaky, and the clever polymer science that goes into
those separator bags is _very_ impressive. So we've moved some way from
Leclanche's day.

Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last twice
as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why "Batt-aid"
no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the
failure mode that might have fixed.

Plain lead is also a poor material to make electrodes out of. If you
must do this, recycle old battery plates and use a much better alloy.
Battery lifetime also depends on the condition of the peroxide layer on
the plate surface, so read something like the Caswell's plating handbook
on how to establish this properly, don't just bung metal plates in and
hope.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:36:26 GMT, EricP wrote:

Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring
bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery?

First they were separate glass bottles in wooden cases, then they were
multi-hole rubber batteries, then they were plastic. Bitumen is still
used with hard rubber (if you ever see one), plastic has always been
sealed with heat-welded plastic (probably ultrasound welded these days).

My dad's MG (1932) has glass and wooden case batteries that are at least
55 years old. They've been dry stored since new and only rarely do they
have the acid put back in them (and drained out afterwards) They're
still in good order.

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

EricP wrote:
On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, babbled like a
waterfall and said:

4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the
old,
or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard.

Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this,
no!

Yep. Done it. The downside is they look completely unprofessional
and
arent all solidly held together like commercial batts. Lead acid
technology is very basic. Any book on lead acids I've ever read has
complicated the sh1t out of it, and coincidentally, has been
sponsored
by a battery manufacturer, ie its purpose is basically to dissuade
people from making their own for peanuts.


NT

Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring
bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery?
Hence the reason for sealed plastic things at large cost.

If you sealed them they would burst. The water content in the
electrolyte generates H2 and O2. In more modern times there is the gel
cell, catalytic balls and so on, but if you make your own you must not
seal them.

Any lead acid cell can be opened to work on it: how convenient it is is
another matter, varies depending on construction.


NT

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, wrote:

Lead acid
technology is very basic.

No it isn't. I once built a machine to test the machine that made
the
plastic that went into the bags that kept the electrodes apart. Even
my
machine was pretty tweaky, and the clever polymer science that goes
into
those separator bags is _very_ impressive. So we've moved some way
from
Leclanche's day.

Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last
twice
as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why
"Batt-aid"
no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the
failure mode that might have fixed.


But none of this is necessary. Making your own lead acids is very
simple. Yes you can get into plate separators, phosphoric acid, gel
cells, catalysts balls, chemically preprocessed plates etc, but none of
that is needed. A lead acid cell can be as simple as lead sheet, acid,
and container, and work happily.


Plain lead is also a poor material to make electrodes out of. If you
must do this, recycle old battery plates and use a much better alloy.

tend to be tainted with impurities, or be falling apart.


Battery lifetime also depends on the condition of the peroxide layer
on
the plate surface, so read something like the Caswell's plating
handbook
on how to establish this properly, don't just bung metal plates in
and
hope.

It works.


NT

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last twice
as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why "Batt-aid"
no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the
failure mode that might have fixed.

My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than
they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years. Just
enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over 15
years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car charging
systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were.

I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age.

--
*Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than
they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years. Just
enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over 15
years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car charging
systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were.

I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age.

Not my experience. My last two cars were Fords brought new, and
neither has needed a new battery in the 8 years I kept them
(ignoring one which needed a new battery after 2 days because
it had been dropped and the acid drained out through a crack).

Battery life could easily be affected by the quality of alternator
used. Long after most cars had switched from dynamos to alternators,
some 20 years ago Citroens were using a funny hybrid -- an alternator
without the semiconductor voltage regulation, with an external dynamo
relay control box. Those went through car batteries quite fast,
probably due to crappy charging voltage regulation.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last
twice
as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why
"Batt-aid"
no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the
failure mode that might have fixed.

My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days
than
they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years.
Just
enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over
15
years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car
charging
systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were.

I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age.

Battery life depends on charge voltage, charge rate, what the
alternator gives out at idle, whether the car is used after dark much,
battery maintenance, alternator set voltage...

I've seen one car eat batteries every 3 yrs (bmw), and another run
happily on the same battery for 15.


NT

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age.

Not my experience. My last two cars were Fords brought new, and
neither has needed a new battery in the 8 years I kept them
(ignoring one which needed a new battery after 2 days because
it had been dropped and the acid drained out through a crack).

Perhaps it depends on car use? My commute is pretty short by most
standards - only about 3 miles. In the morning it tends to be a quick
journey being before rush hour, but slower in the evening. However, it's
certainly long enough to keep the battery charged.

However, when the Rover was the main car I was doing a much longer commute
- about 10 miles. But 3 years was again the average.

Battery life could easily be affected by the quality of alternator
used. Long after most cars had switched from dynamos to alternators,
some 20 years ago Citroens were using a funny hybrid -- an alternator
without the semiconductor voltage regulation, with an external dynamo
relay control box. Those went through car batteries quite fast,
probably due to crappy charging voltage regulation.

I built a solid state regulator for my last dynamo equipped car - an
Austin 1800 - and that worked well.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

bigcat wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days
than they did 40 years ago.
Battery life depends on charge voltage, charge rate, what the
alternator gives out at idle, whether the car is used after dark much,
battery maintenance, alternator set voltage...

It's also related to the physical installation of the battery.

In article , Simon Barr
writes

I've *never* known any UPS to boil batteries and dump acid and I've replaced
batteries in maybe 50 over the years. Some of them were very deformed from
high temperatures but all held onto their contents.

Normally, I'd agree with you, having happily installed and used a lot of
APC kit, but we had an APC Smart UPS 2200 boil its external battery pack
last week. Fortunately, we smelt something getting hot and caught it
before it could leak everywhere. The batteries are badly distorted.

It's only just over two years old, and APC refused a warranty claim.

In article , Sparks
writes

What you have, is a £1700 whopper! designed to protect a small
village...well maybe not, but it is FAR in excess of what you need!

Maybe the OP wants a long run-time?