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'Priming' old UPS batteries
It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the
kind of thing that a few people here will know about. I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) and wired it into the mains last night. I purely intend the device to provide backup power and mains cleaning for the boiler, telephone, DSL modem/router and Wireless AP so it will have a teeny load on it. Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised). Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them constantly charging? As always, thanks for any and all responses. Seri |
Seri wrote:
Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised). Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them constantly charging? They're scrap, the plates will be sulphated, or possibly shorting. You can get "Bat-Aid" tablets at car shops which may make the batteries better for a while (if you can get them in), but I think you'd be better off just replacing them. You don't have to use the same physical sized ones. |
Try buying part-used batteries on the geek surplus market (helps to be
local too). They're rated at a 10 year life but "real" UPSes often swap them at 5. I've bought massive cells (twice the size of a car battery cell) at =A31.50 each in the past, although I was buying a ton or two. And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or into a 19" rack cab full of kit. |
In article .com, Seri wrote:
Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them constantly charging? As always, thanks for any and all responses. Seri The batteries will most likely be knackered. They only last 2 - 5 years on average. You will just have to replace them. I always try to use Yuasa ones, others don't seem to have the same lifespan. CPC seem to consistently be the cheapest too. HTH -- simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk Simon Barr. '97 110 300Tdi. |
The battery for this will be made up of lots of batteries all in series
to make up a high DC voltage. If you are lucky, you may find that only one or two of the individual batteries may be shot - you need a high discharge rate amp hour meter in addition to just measuring the open circuit volts. Beware the high DC voltages that lurk within! |
I'm looking at replacing them, but the damn thing takes 16 of them wire
up in blocks of 4, the cheapest price for the same or equivalent I can find is =A318 each. So just shy of =A3300 is a little more than I wanted to spend at the moment.... Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic R127R2P1 or equivalent batteries from then that would be great! :o) Thanks again Seri |
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In article .com, Seri wrote:
I'm looking at replacing them, but the damn thing takes 16 of them wire up in blocks of 4, the cheapest price for the same or equivalent I can find is £18 each. So just shy of £300 is a little more than I wanted to spend at the moment.... Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic R127R2P1 or equivalent batteries from then that would be great! :o) Is that a 12V 7Ah? The Yuasa equivalent from CPC is £12.79ea if you by more than 10. Still a lot of cash though! -- simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk Simon Barr. '97 110 300Tdi. |
The current Panasonics are 12V 7.2Ah so I'm presuming the Yuasa ones
would do the job. May have to order a few from CPC and see if I can isolate which ones are 'most' dead in the current blocks. Thanks! Seri |
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:55:42 UTC, "Seri" wrote:
The current Panasonics are 12V 7.2Ah so I'm presuming the Yuasa ones would do the job. May have to order a few from CPC and see if I can isolate which ones are 'most' dead in the current blocks. What's the exact model number? (of the UPS) -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
In article .com,
"Seri" writes: Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them constantly charging? They are probably knackered. In a UPS, the capacity of the batteries drops pretty linearly to zero after about 5 years, so they're usually chucked out at about 3 years when the run time will have got too short for the original application. Usually, the cheapest way to replace them when integrated inside the UPS is to buy a new UPS;-) -- Andrew Gabriel |
On 21 Apr 2005 06:46:07 -0700, Seri wrote:
Of course, if anyone knows where I can locate 16 cheap Panasonic R127R2P1 or equivalent batteries from then that would be great! :o) Ask Bristol Batteries. Good price when I need to replace the two 12v 7A/hr jobbies in my small UPS. http://www.bristolbatteries.com/ Love the colour scheme, not. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Well, just slid the thing forwards on the platform I made for it and on
the back it says it's a SU5000RM15U I haven't yet hooked up to it with a console cable to see if it gives a more precise model number. Is that the number you were after? Thanks Seri |
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In article .com,
Seri wrote: Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised). It might actually be worth while contacting APC directly and seeing they have have deals for resurecting old batteries, or exchange programs. A place I work with has done this in the past with good results. Gordon |
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:16:49 UTC, "Seri" wrote:
Well, just slid the thing forwards on the platform I made for it and on the back it says it's a SU5000RM15U Oh well. Looking up brand new batteries, they're 246 quid each (and I think you need two, is that right?) -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
Seri wrote:
It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the kind of thing that a few people here will know about. I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) and wired it into the mains last night. I purely intend the device to provide backup power and mains cleaning for the boiler, telephone, DSL modem/router and Wireless AP so it will have a teeny load on it. Anyway, it has the original lead/acid batteries that came with it, that seem to still be holding a charge, but they're not great and lose their charge really quickly. I've pulled one of the batteries out of the chassis to see if there was any hope of toping it up like a car battery, but no dice (not that I was suprised). Does anybody know of a way of 'priming' this type of battery to make it healthier? Is it worth me charging them up full and then discharging them as much as possible a few times? Or should I just leave them constantly charging? As always, thanks for any and all responses. Seri options: 1. open them and replace the electrolyte. This often gets lead acids working well again, and costs peanuts 2. buy new set of deep cycle batteries 3. buy car batteries and know theyll be dead after 500 cycles 4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the old, or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard. NT |
The damn thing takes four! At full capacity I think I could run the
freezer and electric oven off it (not that I would want to you understand). But yes, that's way more than I plan on spending for something that SWMBO classes as 'one of his projects'.... |
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:56:40 UTC, "Seri" wrote:
The damn thing takes four! At full capacity I think I could run the freezer and electric oven off it (not that I would want to you understand). Ha! Problem... For the record, I have bought two (much smaller) APC battery packs recently. The 'pattern' ones weren't much cheaper than APC ones and were of fairly unknown quality. I had no time to make them up, either. Cheapest place, with FREE carriage (not insignificant) was Amazon. Just for the record... -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
"Seri" wrote in message oups.com... It's a touch overkill and perhaps a little OT too, but it does seem the kind of thing that a few people here will know about. I managed to obtain an old(ish) APC 5000 Smart UPS (5000VA/3750W) 3.7KW - christ how do you lift it, it weighs nearly 100KG! and yes, you could easily run most ovens off it for a while!! If you only want to protect the boiler, phone, router and AP, then it would be far far far cheaper to just buy a new UPS! What you have, is a £1700 whopper! designed to protect a small village...well maybe not, but it is FAR in excess of what you need! http://www.apcc.com/resource/include...ku=SU5000RMI5U) http://www.apcc.com/products/runtime...?upsfamily=165 this shows the run time charts (yours is the last on the list) Sparks... |
wrote:
And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or into a 19" rack cab full of kit. I have always had good results with APC kit. I have only ever found one that had a battery leak - then only fairly minor, discovered on replacing the battery. All the others I have used have done long and faithfull service without incident. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Gordon Henderson wrote:
It might actually be worth while contacting APC directly and seeing they have have deals for resurecting old batteries, or exchange programs. A place I work with has done this in the past with good results. If you buy the official replacement packs they usually come with a carton for returning the old one. They are usually five times the price of CPC though. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Aren't the spade connectors on APC batteries a different size to "standard"
batteries to encourage punters to buy the APC branded replacements? Gary wrote in message ups.com... Try buying part-used batteries on the geek surplus market (helps to be local too). They're rated at a 10 year life but "real" UPSes often swap them at 5. I've bought massive cells (twice the size of a car battery cell) at £1.50 each in the past, although I was buying a ton or two. And I wouldn't trust APC kit as far as I could throw it. I've never had a project with APC kit where they _haven't_ failed in a manner that boiled the battery and dumped acid either onto the client's carpet, or into a 19" rack cab full of kit. |
In article ,
"Gary" writes: Aren't the spade connectors on APC batteries a different size to "standard" batteries to encourage punters to buy the APC branded replacements? They're larger, but nothing that wasn't solvable by closing up the female connector a bit with a pair of pliers. Other issues are that you probably won't be able to reset the battery change date, and that you must do a recalibration run after a full charge, or the UPS won't know the battery capacity has increased (if it's one of their more intelligent models). -- Andrew Gabriel |
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
.... snipped but nothing that wasn't solvable by closing up the female connector a bit with a pair of pliers. .... snipped Now that's what I call DIY, I think SWMBO might complain ;-) (sorry, back to the topic) |
Chris Bacon wrote:
wrote: 3. buy car batteries and know theyll be dead after 500 cycles Erm, with an UPS, isn't it the case that the batteries should hardly ever be "cycled", but be fully charged almost all the time? yep, its only in a power cut they get cycled. Hence you can use car batts on UPSes. They wont last as long as deep cycle batteries. And used working car batts r cheap... its a costcut option anyway. 4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the old, or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard. Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this, no! Yep. Done it. The downside is they look completely unprofessional and arent all solidly held together like commercial batts. Lead acid technology is very basic. Any book on lead acids I've ever read has complicated the sh1t out of it, and coincidentally, has been sponsored by a battery manufacturer, ie its purpose is basically to dissuade people from making their own for peanuts. NT |
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In article ,
EricP writes: Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery? Hence the reason for sealed plastic things at large cost. Prior to around 1940, there were plenty of dismantlable ones used for valve radios. Any book of that time on radios will include lots of details on caring for lead acid cells, including replacing the electrolite, plates, cleaning out the sludge, etc. Normally you took them back to the shop for charging and maintenance, but lots of people DIY'ed it. Actually, we had lots of them at school of the rectangular glass tank type, where you could lift off the top with the plates for maintenance. I think they all got chucked out and replaced with mains power supplies quite soon after I arrived though. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:36:26 GMT, EricP wrote:
Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery? First they were separate glass bottles in wooden cases, then they were multi-hole rubber batteries, then they were plastic. Bitumen is still used with hard rubber (if you ever see one), plastic has always been sealed with heat-welded plastic (probably ultrasound welded these days). My dad's MG (1932) has glass and wooden case batteries that are at least 55 years old. They've been dry stored since new and only rarely do they have the acid put back in them (and drained out afterwards) They're still in good order. -- Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet. |
EricP wrote:
On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, babbled like a waterfall and said: 4. Make some new batteries, using either the scrap lead from the old, or roofing lead sheet. Its not hard. Yeah, right. Come on Nige, I normally agree with you, but on this, no! Yep. Done it. The downside is they look completely unprofessional and arent all solidly held together like commercial batts. Lead acid technology is very basic. Any book on lead acids I've ever read has complicated the sh1t out of it, and coincidentally, has been sponsored by a battery manufacturer, ie its purpose is basically to dissuade people from making their own for peanuts. NT Before the modern plastic battery weren't they sealed by pouring bitumen into the top and this could be removed to repair the battery? Hence the reason for sealed plastic things at large cost. If you sealed them they would burst. The water content in the electrolyte generates H2 and O2. In more modern times there is the gel cell, catalytic balls and so on, but if you make your own you must not seal them. Any lead acid cell can be opened to work on it: how convenient it is is another matter, varies depending on construction. NT |
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 22 Apr 2005 11:28:29 -0700, wrote: Lead acid technology is very basic. No it isn't. I once built a machine to test the machine that made the plastic that went into the bags that kept the electrodes apart. Even my machine was pretty tweaky, and the clever polymer science that goes into those separator bags is _very_ impressive. So we've moved some way from Leclanche's day. Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last twice as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why "Batt-aid" no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the failure mode that might have fixed. But none of this is necessary. Making your own lead acids is very simple. Yes you can get into plate separators, phosphoric acid, gel cells, catalysts balls, chemically preprocessed plates etc, but none of that is needed. A lead acid cell can be as simple as lead sheet, acid, and container, and work happily. Plain lead is also a poor material to make electrodes out of. If you must do this, recycle old battery plates and use a much better alloy. tend to be tainted with impurities, or be falling apart. Battery lifetime also depends on the condition of the peroxide layer on the plate surface, so read something like the Caswell's plating handbook on how to establish this properly, don't just bung metal plates in and hope. It works. NT |
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote: Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last twice as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why "Batt-aid" no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the failure mode that might have fixed. My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years. Just enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over 15 years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car charging systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were. I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age. -- *Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes: My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years. Just enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over 15 years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car charging systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were. I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age. Not my experience. My last two cars were Fords brought new, and neither has needed a new battery in the 8 years I kept them (ignoring one which needed a new battery after 2 days because it had been dropped and the acid drained out through a crack). Battery life could easily be affected by the quality of alternator used. Long after most cars had switched from dynamos to alternators, some 20 years ago Citroens were using a funny hybrid -- an alternator without the semiconductor voltage regulation, with an external dynamo relay control box. Those went through car batteries quite fast, probably due to crappy charging voltage regulation. -- Andrew Gabriel |
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Andy Dingley wrote: Permeable separators is why modern batteries (last 15 years) last twice as long as they did 25 years ago. It's also one reason why "Batt-aid" no longer works, as they're pretty much already guarded against the failure mode that might have fixed. My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than they did 40 years ago. BMW battery - made by Bosch - exactly 3 years. Just enough for the car warranty. On my old Rover, which I've had for over 15 years, again 3 years or so regardless of make. And modern car charging systems should be kinder to batteries than dynamos were. I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age. Battery life depends on charge voltage, charge rate, what the alternator gives out at idle, whether the car is used after dark much, battery maintenance, alternator set voltage... I've seen one car eat batteries every 3 yrs (bmw), and another run happily on the same battery for 15. NT |
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote: I'd say they design the separators to self destruct at this age. Not my experience. My last two cars were Fords brought new, and neither has needed a new battery in the 8 years I kept them (ignoring one which needed a new battery after 2 days because it had been dropped and the acid drained out through a crack). Perhaps it depends on car use? My commute is pretty short by most standards - only about 3 miles. In the morning it tends to be a quick journey being before rush hour, but slower in the evening. However, it's certainly long enough to keep the battery charged. However, when the Rover was the main car I was doing a much longer commute - about 10 miles. But 3 years was again the average. Battery life could easily be affected by the quality of alternator used. Long after most cars had switched from dynamos to alternators, some 20 years ago Citroens were using a funny hybrid -- an alternator without the semiconductor voltage regulation, with an external dynamo relay control box. Those went through car batteries quite fast, probably due to crappy charging voltage regulation. I built a solid state regulator for my last dynamo equipped car - an Austin 1800 - and that worked well. -- *A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
bigcat wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: My experience with car batteries says they last no longer these days than they did 40 years ago. Battery life depends on charge voltage, charge rate, what the alternator gives out at idle, whether the car is used after dark much, battery maintenance, alternator set voltage... It's also related to the physical installation of the battery. |
In article , Simon Barr
writes I've *never* known any UPS to boil batteries and dump acid and I've replaced batteries in maybe 50 over the years. Some of them were very deformed from high temperatures but all held onto their contents. Normally, I'd agree with you, having happily installed and used a lot of APC kit, but we had an APC Smart UPS 2200 boil its external battery pack last week. Fortunately, we smelt something getting hot and caught it before it could leak everywhere. The batteries are badly distorted. It's only just over two years old, and APC refused a warranty claim. |
In article , Sparks
writes What you have, is a £1700 whopper! designed to protect a small village...well maybe not, but it is FAR in excess of what you need! Maybe the OP wants a long run-time? |
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