Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
APC UPS Batteries Very Swollen And My Solution
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time. I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11. Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS. After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in fact a VERY common problem! My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS through a hold I drilled on the case. I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Jean-Marie Vaneskahian" wrote in message om... From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries that are in them over a short period of time. I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11. Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS. After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in fact a VERY common problem! My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS through a hold I drilled on the case. I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! Several companies make standalone thermostat chips that can be used to sound an alarm and/or remove power from the UPS. I've used the Dallas DS1821 before, it uses a 1-Wire interface for programming but can be set to active high or active low output with settable turnon and turnoff points. Once programmed it can be set to standalone thermostat mode and only needs a source of power and a transistor to switch a relay or other device. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Jean-Marie Vaneskahian" schreef in bericht om... From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries that are in them over a short period of time. I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11. Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS. After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in fact a VERY common problem! My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS through a hold I drilled on the case. I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! Lead acid batteries do not last forever. They need to be replaced from time to time. You should find that time in APCs doc. So your batteries may have died of aging. Overloading is another possibility. I wonder why a *smart* UPS does not report this kind of failures. As it seems you can't trust the APCs electronics anymore, some external electronics may do well. I'd check for overvoltage and high temperature. Checking pressure (how?) may be a good thing to improve safety but when it alarms it's too late to save the batteries. petrus bitbyter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.796 / Virus Database: 540 - Release Date: 13-11-2004 |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Jean-Marie Vaneskahian wrote:
I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! I have had the same problem. My theory is that it is charging slightly over the permitted 2.3V per cell. Maybe 2.35V or so. Could this cause the trouble? --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Wow I can use my Dallas Semi DS18S20 that I use on a midon design
"Temp08" http://www.midondesign.com/TEMP08/TEMP08.html I can have the PC monitor the temp. But I just can't do a shutdown of the UPS. It powers the entire wiring closet, including the PC that would monitor the battery temperatures! "James Sweet" wrote in message news:dCemd.9973$pP5.7813@trnddc05... "Jean-Marie Vaneskahian" wrote in message om... From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries that are in them over a short period of time. I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11. Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS. After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in fact a VERY common problem! My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS through a hold I drilled on the case. I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! Several companies make standalone thermostat chips that can be used to sound an alarm and/or remove power from the UPS. I've used the Dallas DS1821 before, it uses a 1-Wire interface for programming but can be set to active high or active low output with settable turnon and turnoff points. Once programmed it can be set to standalone thermostat mode and only needs a source of power and a transistor to switch a relay or other device. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Yes, I have run into many "smart" UPS cooking and constantly floating
batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts. Check it with a DVM -Joe I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! I have had the same problem. My theory is that it is charging slightly over the permitted 2.3V per cell. Maybe 2.35V or so. Could this cause the trouble? --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Joe wrote:
Yes, I have run into many "smart" UPS cooking and constantly floating batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts. Check it with a DVM I did check it, it was nowhere near as high as 14.5 or 15 volts. It was only slightly above the stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts. I seem to remember it was in the neighbourhood of 13.95 or 14 volts. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
seem to remember it was in the neighborhood of 13.95 or 14 volts.
For "float" and maximum battery life that's to high ! The stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts is red lining it, boils them dry in under a year (short life) I set mine at 13.2, Im on my 4th year and my cell has plenty reserve. -Joe wrote in message ... Joe wrote: Yes, I have run into many "smart" UPS cooking and constantly floating batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts. Check it with a DVM I did check it, it was nowhere near as high as 14.5 or 15 volts. It was only slightly above the stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts. I seem to remember it was in the neighbourhood of 13.95 or 14 volts. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
|
#12
|
|||
|
|||
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time. I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11. Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS. After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in fact a VERY common problem! My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS through a hold I drilled on the case. I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this in the future (Though I am not sure how) I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries!!!! The charger is most likely set higher than it ought to be. 13.5 vdc is correct, IIRC. But you may have a MUCH bigger problem. You stated that your out-board batteries were "...connected in series." A series connection of 4 twelve volt batteries makes a 48 volt battery. Your charger cannot charge this, and your inverter will be destroyed if it ever tries to assume a load. Or...you mean the 4 twelve volt batteries are connected in parallel. Much different. webpa |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
These use 24Vdc battery configurations.
4 12V batteries. Not in series.... Not in parallel... They're in series/parallel! Two batteries are wired in series then joined, in parallel with the other two (also wired in series) to present a 24Volt battery pack to the inverter/charger. These are indeed smart units, with a microprocessor onboard, etc. What I think has happened is that the batteries needed to be replaced, as the originals failed. Done. The problem is the smart charger doesn't "know" it has new, improved batteries. Last time it was pushing harder than ever to try to force a charge into the years old batteries. Now it has new, fresh, tender lead plates to play with but doesn't know it. It still "thinks" old stale bad batteries. The solution? Not sure, and I too have had to extract my new now-bloated batteries from my similar units... Reading other's posts I saw recently what I think may just be the solution. They were speaking of a SU600. The solution is to use their software, and connect the SmartUPS to your PC's serial port to do so... As it really oughta be already... Then preform a "Runtime re-calibration"... The exact term escapes me for the moment... I think thats it. Doing so causes it to switch to inverter and then time the depletion of the batteries. Then when it recharges them it may learn their capacity, etc. I hope this'll get it done and before I go spend another $100 on new cells for either of mine (again) I hope to hear back from someone about this. My expectation is that the charger won't try as hard once it learns it doesn't have to. Is this proper thinking? I do know this: APC's out of warranty partners CBMI are good folks. And for something like $50 they'll re-cal your unit. The bad news is the expense of shipping these all over the US. They have 2 service centers now, one in NJ and one in Las Vegas... I think. Hope this helps. Jack P.S. The re-cal is done via the serial port. They connect and send it new parameters. The protocol is proprietary and will likely never be known on the street. Non-disclosure agreements with APC prevent it, etc. And nobody's hacked it. WEBPA wrote: The charger is most likely set higher than it ought to be. 13.5 vdc is correct, IIRC. But you may have a MUCH bigger problem. You stated that your out-board batteries were "...connected in series." A series connection of 4 twelve volt batteries makes a 48 volt battery. Your charger cannot charge this, and your inverter will be destroyed if it ever tries to assume a load. Or...you mean the 4 twelve volt batteries are connected in parallel. Much different. webpa |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:13:58 -0800, Jack Edin wrote:
These use 24Vdc battery configurations. 4 12V batteries. Not in series.... Not in parallel... They're in series/parallel! Two batteries are wired in series then joined, in parallel with the other two (also wired in series) to present a 24Volt battery pack to the inverter/charger. These are indeed smart units, with a microprocessor onboard, etc. That doesn't make them smart. It does make them capable of smart things if the coders know what they are doing. What I think has happened is that the batteries needed to be replaced, as the originals failed. Done. The problem is the smart charger doesn't "know" it has new, improved batteries. Last time it was pushing harder than ever to try to force a charge into the years old batteries. Now it has new, fresh, tender lead plates to play with but doesn't know it. It still "thinks" old stale bad batteries. The solution? Not sure, and I too have had to extract my new now-bloated batteries from my similar units... Reading other's posts I saw recently what I think may just be the solution. They were speaking of a SU600. The solution is to use their software, and connect the SmartUPS to your PC's serial port to do so... As it really oughta be already... Then preform a "Runtime re-calibration"... The exact term escapes me for the moment... I think thats it. Doing so causes it to switch to inverter and then time the depletion of the batteries. Then when it recharges them it may learn their capacity, etc. I hope this'll get it done and before I go spend another $100 on new cells for either of mine (again) I hope to hear back from someone about this. My expectation is that the charger won't try as hard once it learns it doesn't have to. Is this proper thinking? If the charger is half-decent, it would use a current-limited constant voltage charge regime which would eventually float the cells at a suitable voltage. THAT would automatically treat new cells, or healthy cells, properly without the need for any "calibration". In any event, calibration should relate to discharge capability (and hence run-time prediction) but should NOT affect charging. I do know this: APC's out of warranty partners CBMI are good folks. And for something like $50 they'll re-cal your unit. The bad news is the expense of shipping these all over the US. They have 2 service centers now, one in NJ and one in Las Vegas... I think. Hope this helps. Jack P.S. The re-cal is done via the serial port. They connect and send it new parameters. The protocol is proprietary and will likely never be known on the street. Non-disclosure agreements with APC prevent it, etc. And nobody's hacked it. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Jack and Webpa, you are both wrong.
The packs are connected in pairs just like you stated Webpa, but when you take the unit apart you see that one pair is conected to the other only by one yellow 18 Gague wire. This makes the RED and BLACK 18 Gague wires that the UPS sees as follows: Black Wire From UPS - Black Teminal on Battery 1 Red Terminal On Battery 1 - Black Teminal on Battery 2 Red Teminal on Battery 2 - Black Teminal on Battery 3 Red Teminal on Battery 3 - Black Teminal on Battery 4 Red Teminal on Battery 4 - Red Wire From UPS This is HOW THE BATTERIES WERE CONNECTED in the SmartUPS before I took it apart even though (Battery 1 + Battery 2) are physically together and (Battery 3 + Battery 4) are physically together they are in fact not connected in parallel in any way, it just appears that way. The Batteries are in fact connected in Series yeilding 48 Volts DC. This is how the SmartUPS 22000Net had them connected when I took it apart. I reconnected my new batteries again in series just like the ones in the UPS that I took apart and it works again (Though the batteries may not last based on the UPS overcharing the batteries, but that's a different story). Why do you say that they are not connected in series? |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Jack Edin wrote: The re-cal is done via the serial port. They connect and send it new parameters. The protocol is proprietary and will likely never be known on the street. Non-disclosure agreements with APC prevent it, etc. When I bough an UPS serveral years ago I specifically asked the importer about protocol specifications. Some, like APC, just refused and said the protocol was Top Secret. They did not get the order. One UPS was delivered with free software supporting my platform (not just only MS Windows) and the manufacturer had nothing against disclosing the protocol. They did get the order. Reading about the problems everybody seems to have with the batteries in the APC units I am glad I bought a UPS with intelligent battery management that works. -- Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/ |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
"Joe" wrote in message news:09vmd.7373$tS4.3695@trndny09...
seem to remember it was in the neighborhood of 13.95 or 14 volts. For "float" and maximum battery life that's to high ! The stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts is red lining it, boils them dry in under a year (short life) I set mine at 13.2, Im on my 4th year and my cell has plenty reserve. -Joe wrote in message ... Joe wrote: Yes, I have run into many "smart" UPS cooking and constantly floating batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts. Check it with a DVM I did check it, it was nowhere near as high as 14.5 or 15 volts. It was only slightly above the stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts. I seem to remember it was in the neighbourhood of 13.95 or 14 volts. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. The general rule of thumb is to change your UPS batteries every 3 years - if the batteries keep swelling then the charging unit on your UPS is shot. You can always check out www.2buyups.com for great prices on batteries or APC UPS's.... |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Mr. APC wrote:
The general rule of thumb is to change your UPS batteries every 3 years - if the batteries keep swelling then the charging unit on your UPS is shot. You can always check out www.2buyups.com for great prices on batteries or APC UPS's.... I won't be buying APC, but do you know a source of schematics, so I can test and modify or repair my unit? I'll look up the model number when necessary. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|