Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Welcome to my secret passion. g First off, the 166M (popularly known as
the Barchetta [bar-ket-a], not to be confused with the more recent Ferrari
of the same name) did not have a space frame. It was twin-tube. As an aside,
the Barchetta is the car copied by AC of the UK and which became the AC Ace.
Carrol Shelby stuffed a Ford V8 into the Ace and it became the Cobra. Then
Shelby beat the Ferraris with it for the World GT Championship.

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps. I have an original copy from 1965, but
I'm told it was recently reprinted. You need that book if you want to avoid
going around in circles. It's still *the* book for understanding the ideas
behind space frames.

Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

There are other chassis books but I don't know how much they talk about
space frames. I have a couple of others but they're mostly about monocoque
and other types.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

Web sites? About Ferraris or space frames? 'Lots about Ferraris. Little
about space frames. I've looked.

Regarding racing frame history, here's a short sequence: 1) Ladder-type
frames. 2) Twin-tube frames. 3) Multi-tube frames (Cooper). 4) Space frames
(1948 Cisitalia; 1952 Lotus and Mercedes-Benz). 5) Semi-monocoque. 6)
Monocoque ("tubs").

That will keep you oriented. It's all explained in Costin & Phipps' book.
Have fun.

--
Ed Huntress

An interesting aside, during the crazy inflation years of late 80's and
early 90's when prices went through the roof for all sorts of classic cars,
people were selling Ferrari engines for over 1 million each depending on the
vintage- also chassis, bodies etc, were being sold or re-made to resemble
certain valuable vintage models. It did not take long before some
enterprising types realized that you could actually duplicate the engines as
well as chassis from the castings up for 1/2 the price of a real one.
Counterfeits flooded the market in the entire spectrum of classics until the
price fell to more realistic levels. There were 2 guys in England involved
in a lengthy legal battle over a Le Mans vintage Aston Martin. The original
car had been wrecked during the race and subsequently scrapped. One guy
ended up with the engine block and another guy came across part of the
original chassis. Both guys had complete replicas built around the small
parts they had and then were trying to peddle them both as the "original"

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Wasn't it Brian Redman, that when referring to the production run of some
vintage race car, quipped that "all forty of the original twenty-five still
exist"?

Peter

"EdFielder" wrote in message
nk.net...
An interesting aside, during the crazy inflation years of late 80's and
early 90's when prices went through the roof for all sorts of classic
cars,
people were selling Ferrari engines for over 1 million each depending on
the
vintage- also chassis, bodies etc, were being sold or re-made to resemble
certain valuable vintage models. It did not take long before some
enterprising types realized that you could actually duplicate the engines
as
well as chassis from the castings up for 1/2 the price of a real one.
Counterfeits flooded the market in the entire spectrum of classics until
the
price fell to more realistic levels. There were 2 guys in England
involved
in a lengthy legal battle over a Le Mans vintage Aston Martin. The
original
car had been wrecked during the race and subsequently scrapped. One guy
ended up with the engine block and another guy came across part of the
original chassis. Both guys had complete replicas built around the small
parts they had and then were trying to peddle them both as the "original"

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Welcome to my secret passion. g First off, the 166M (popularly known as
the Barchetta [bar-ket-a], not to be confused with the more recent Ferrari
of the same name) did not have a space frame. It was twin-tube. As an aside,
the Barchetta is the car copied by AC of the UK and which became the AC Ace.
Carrol Shelby stuffed a Ford V8 into the Ace and it became the Cobra. Then
Shelby beat the Ferraris with it for the World GT Championship.

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps. I have an original copy from 1965, but
I'm told it was recently reprinted. You need that book if you want to avoid
going around in circles. It's still *the* book for understanding the ideas
behind space frames.

Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

There are other chassis books but I don't know how much they talk about
space frames. I have a couple of others but they're mostly about monocoque
and other types.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

Web sites? About Ferraris or space frames? 'Lots about Ferraris. Little
about space frames. I've looked.

Regarding racing frame history, here's a short sequence: 1) Ladder-type
frames. 2) Twin-tube frames. 3) Multi-tube frames (Cooper). 4) Space frames
(1948 Cisitalia; 1952 Lotus and Mercedes-Benz). 5) Semi-monocoque. 6)
Monocoque ("tubs").

That will keep you oriented. It's all explained in Costin & Phipps' book.
Have fun.
Thanks Ed,
The show said it was a tubular space frame. I think. I'll watch it
again. It's too bad that it seems like there are no pictures of the
166MM without the body on. I suppose it will be easier to find
pictures of ACs though. I'll look for the books you mentioned. Man, if
I had the time now I'd build a 166MM. What a car!
ERS

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Welcome to my secret passion. g First off, the 166M (popularly known as
the Barchetta [bar-ket-a], not to be confused with the more recent
Ferrari
of the same name) did not have a space frame. It was twin-tube. As an
aside,
the Barchetta is the car copied by AC of the UK and which became the AC
Ace.
Carrol Shelby stuffed a Ford V8 into the Ace and it became the Cobra.
Then
Shelby beat the Ferraris with it for the World GT Championship.

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps. I have an original copy from 1965,
but
I'm told it was recently reprinted. You need that book if you want to
avoid
going around in circles. It's still *the* book for understanding the
ideas
behind space frames.

Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

There are other chassis books but I don't know how much they talk about
space frames. I have a couple of others but they're mostly about
monocoque
and other types.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

Web sites? About Ferraris or space frames? 'Lots about Ferraris. Little
about space frames. I've looked.

Regarding racing frame history, here's a short sequence: 1) Ladder-type
frames. 2) Twin-tube frames. 3) Multi-tube frames (Cooper). 4) Space
frames
(1948 Cisitalia; 1952 Lotus and Mercedes-Benz). 5) Semi-monocoque. 6)
Monocoque ("tubs").

That will keep you oriented. It's all explained in Costin & Phipps' book.
Have fun.
Thanks Ed,
The show said it was a tubular space frame. I think.

They may have said it. They may not know exactly what a "space frame" is.
Don't be surprised, even some serious car historians can't tell a space
frame from a henhouse. g

Ferrari and Maserati used twin-tube frames until well after their time was
passed. I don't think Ferrari made a space frame until the late '50s. The
same is true of several other major makes that won races anyway. It's a
complicated story, the interaction of chassis design, engine power, tires,
and suspension. It was clear by 1952 that space frames were superior but
tires and suspensions weren't yet up to the job of exploiting the extra
stiffness. The Cobra, even in 427 form and into the late '80s, was winning
races with a twin-tube chassis.

In the case of old Ferraris, some people get confused because there is a lot
of small structural tubing under the hood. But the "structure" is body
framing, not the car chassis. It doesn't support the major weights (engine,
trans, passengers, fuel tank) and it isn't tied to the suspension. It just
stiffens the body and connects it to the chassis. Thus, it's not part of the
chassis structure.

I'll watch it
again. It's too bad that it seems like there are no pictures of the
166MM without the body on.

Chassis pics of most cars are hard to come by. I have some, including an
Elva Courier which many people said was a space frame, back when I did a
little racing. When you look at the naked chassis, you realize it isn't so.
It's actually a very flimsy twin-tube with some body framing tacked on.

Someone gave me a coffee-table book as a present, _Inside 100 Great Cars_,
by David Hodges, which is the best collection of chassis cut-away drawings
I've ever seen. If you can find it, you might want to get one of those. The
oldest Ferrari it shows is a 250 GTO, which is a fully triangulated space
frame.

BTW, the drawing you really want to see is the Maserati Tipo 60/61. They
didn't call it the "Birdcage" for nothing. g

I suppose it will be easier to find
pictures of ACs though. I'll look for the books you mentioned. Man, if
I had the time now I'd build a 166MM. What a car!

Look at this and drool:

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/ferrari.html

Those chassis photos, BTW, are of a multi-tube chassis almost trying to be a
space frame, but not quite making it. Ferrari just didn't have advanced
chassis until the 1960s.

The mark of a true space frame is that all structural tubes are straight,
and all loads are resolved at tube-end joints, with the overall structure
fully triangulated in three dimensions. If you see a tube connecting
mid-span along another tube, chances are it's not a space frame (although it
could be; further discussion is necessary). If you see a pair of
trussed-girders on the sides of a car, but with no triangulation across the
chassis that resists front-to-rear torsion loads, it's not a true space
frame. Likewise, if you see a bent tube and it's structural, the frame is
not a space frame (Coopers were built like that). The Cobra Daytona Coupe
has a number of bent tubes, for example, but they are not structural as far
as I can tell from photos.

--
Ed Huntress

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Good book, have an original.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

What did they print that was wrong?


- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

"John Ings" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.



Wasn't it reprinted a couple of years ago? I thought that HP Books or
somebody reprinted it.

Do you have _Sports Car Bodywork_, with all of the pullout panels? Someone
offered me $200 for that a while back.

--
Ed Huntress

Peter Grey wrote:
Wasn't it Brian Redman, that when referring to the production run of some
vintage race car, quipped that "all forty of the original twenty-five still
exist"?

Peter

I've seen a vintage bugeye that had the tub changed at least twice, and
the drivetrain and suspension swapped numerable times. But it was still
"the original as raced in 1965".
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

"Rex B" wrote in message
...
Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Good book, have an original.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

What did they print that was wrong?

He says that brazing 4130 can crack it. I did a real research job on it and
found that no one agrees with him, including the old author of _The Brazing
Book_, who did brazing research for 4130 aircraft frames during WWII, and,
more recently, some high-quality custom bicycle builders who bronze-braze
4130 all the time.

There was some speculation by those experts about where he may have gotten
the idea, but I forget exactly what it is. I tried to contact him through
his publisher about it but I never heard back from him.

--
Ed Huntress

http://www.johnegerton.co.uk/cmcc/ferrari312.ram

For a REAL challenge.

--
Steve Williams

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Ed Huntress wrote:
"Rex B" wrote in message
...

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for

anyone

interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Good book, have an original.


There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

What did they print that was wrong?


He says that brazing 4130 can crack it. I did a real research job on it and
found that no one agrees with him, including the old author of _The Brazing
Book_, who did brazing research for 4130 aircraft frames during WWII, and,
more recently, some high-quality custom bicycle builders who bronze-braze
4130 all the time.

There was some speculation by those experts about where he may have gotten
the idea, but I forget exactly what it is. I tried to contact him through
his publisher about it but I never heard back from him.

I've had a couple formula cars with brazed 4130 spaceframes. After 20 or
so seasons, no cracking evident.

"Rex B" wrote in message
...


There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding
space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good.
Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

What did they print that was wrong?


He says that brazing 4130 can crack it. I did a real research job on it
and
found that no one agrees with him, including the old author of _The
Brazing
Book_, who did brazing research for 4130 aircraft frames during WWII,
and,
more recently, some high-quality custom bicycle builders who
bronze-braze
4130 all the time.

There was some speculation by those experts about where he may have
gotten
the idea, but I forget exactly what it is. I tried to contact him
through
his publisher about it but I never heard back from him.

I've had a couple formula cars with brazed 4130 spaceframes. After 20 or
so seasons, no cracking evident.

That's what several people have said. I remember now what the speculation
was: Someone said that if he grossly overheated the joint, it could be
weakened by intergranular pentration. The speculation was that 4130 may be
somewhat sensitive to it, but no one reported that problem from actual
experience.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:29:30 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.

Wasn't it reprinted a couple of years ago? I thought that HP Books or
somebody reprinted it.

Amazon lists "used & new from $148.95" then lists only five used ones.

Do you have _Sports Car Bodywork_, with all of the pullout panels? Someone
offered me $200 for that a while back.

I remember having it at one time. I may have given it to a friend who
was building a wood-bodied sportscar. He was using thin strips of
veneer laminated with epoxy to form curved surfaces, same principle as
Howard Hughes "Spruce Goose".

I still have Philip H. Smith's Design and Tuning of Competition
Engines. Revised edition 1957

Ah the halcyon days of a misspent youth...!

"John Ings" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:29:30 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car
Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.

Wasn't it reprinted a couple of years ago? I thought that HP Books or
somebody reprinted it.

Amazon lists "used & new from $148.95" then lists only five used ones.

Do you have _Sports Car Bodywork_, with all of the pullout panels?
Someone
offered me $200 for that a while back.

I remember having it at one time. I may have given it to a friend who
was building a wood-bodied sportscar. He was using thin strips of
veneer laminated with epoxy to form curved surfaces, same principle as
Howard Hughes "Spruce Goose".

I still have Philip H. Smith's Design and Tuning of Competition
Engines. Revised edition 1957

Yeah, me, too. I almost lost that one ten years ago to a friend who has a
restored MGA.

You must have been a regular at Bentley Books. I think they knew my voice.


Ah the halcyon days of a misspent youth...!

No kidding.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:26:32 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Welcome to my secret passion. g First off, the 166M (popularly known as
the Barchetta [bar-ket-a], not to be confused with the more recent
Ferrari
of the same name) did not have a space frame. It was twin-tube. As an
aside,
the Barchetta is the car copied by AC of the UK and which became the AC
Ace.
Carrol Shelby stuffed a Ford V8 into the Ace and it became the Cobra.
Then
Shelby beat the Ferraris with it for the World GT Championship.

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps. I have an original copy from 1965,
but
I'm told it was recently reprinted. You need that book if you want to
avoid
going around in circles. It's still *the* book for understanding the
ideas
behind space frames.

Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

There are other chassis books but I don't know how much they talk about
space frames. I have a couple of others but they're mostly about
monocoque
and other types.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good. Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

Web sites? About Ferraris or space frames? 'Lots about Ferraris. Little
about space frames. I've looked.

Regarding racing frame history, here's a short sequence: 1) Ladder-type
frames. 2) Twin-tube frames. 3) Multi-tube frames (Cooper). 4) Space
frames
(1948 Cisitalia; 1952 Lotus and Mercedes-Benz). 5) Semi-monocoque. 6)
Monocoque ("tubs").

That will keep you oriented. It's all explained in Costin & Phipps' book.
Have fun.
Thanks Ed,
The show said it was a tubular space frame. I think.

They may have said it. They may not know exactly what a "space frame" is.
Don't be surprised, even some serious car historians can't tell a space
frame from a henhouse. g

Ferrari and Maserati used twin-tube frames until well after their time was
passed. I don't think Ferrari made a space frame until the late '50s. The
same is true of several other major makes that won races anyway. It's a
complicated story, the interaction of chassis design, engine power, tires,
and suspension. It was clear by 1952 that space frames were superior but
tires and suspensions weren't yet up to the job of exploiting the extra
stiffness. The Cobra, even in 427 form and into the late '80s, was winning
races with a twin-tube chassis.

In the case of old Ferraris, some people get confused because there is a lot
of small structural tubing under the hood. But the "structure" is body
framing, not the car chassis. It doesn't support the major weights (engine,
trans, passengers, fuel tank) and it isn't tied to the suspension. It just
stiffens the body and connects it to the chassis. Thus, it's not part of the
chassis structure.

I'll watch it
again. It's too bad that it seems like there are no pictures of the
166MM without the body on.

Chassis pics of most cars are hard to come by. I have some, including an
Elva Courier which many people said was a space frame, back when I did a
little racing. When you look at the naked chassis, you realize it isn't so.
It's actually a very flimsy twin-tube with some body framing tacked on.

Someone gave me a coffee-table book as a present, _Inside 100 Great Cars_,
by David Hodges, which is the best collection of chassis cut-away drawings
I've ever seen. If you can find it, you might want to get one of those. The
oldest Ferrari it shows is a 250 GTO, which is a fully triangulated space
frame.

BTW, the drawing you really want to see is the Maserati Tipo 60/61. They
didn't call it the "Birdcage" for nothing. g

I suppose it will be easier to find
pictures of ACs though. I'll look for the books you mentioned. Man, if
I had the time now I'd build a 166MM. What a car!

Look at this and drool:

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/ferrari.html

Those chassis photos, BTW, are of a multi-tube chassis almost trying to be a
space frame, but not quite making it. Ferrari just didn't have advanced
chassis until the 1960s.

The mark of a true space frame is that all structural tubes are straight,
and all loads are resolved at tube-end joints, with the overall structure
fully triangulated in three dimensions. If you see a tube connecting
mid-span along another tube, chances are it's not a space frame (although it
could be; further discussion is necessary). If you see a pair of
trussed-girders on the sides of a car, but with no triangulation across the
chassis that resists front-to-rear torsion loads, it's not a true space
frame. Likewise, if you see a bent tube and it's structural, the frame is
not a space frame (Coopers were built like that). The Cobra Daytona Coupe
has a number of bent tubes, for example, but they are not structural as far
as I can tell from photos.
Thanks again Ed. That link is great! Making a car from photos is
indeed challenging. But I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had the chance.
Eric

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:03:33 -0800, John Ings
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.

Greetings John,
I sent an e-mail too but it bounced. Anyway, thanks!. How much do you
want for it?
Eric

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:24:29 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps.

Yeah, only $148 for a used one at amazon.com!

But I've got a copy that I can let Eric have.

Greetings John,
I sent an e-mail too but it bounced. Anyway, thanks!. How much do you
want for it?

Free for nothing. It's been in my library for years and I never got
around to doing anything with it. It will salve my conscience to send
it to someone who may actually weld up a car.

johningsATtelusDOTnet

"Rex B" wrote in message ...


I've seen a vintage bugeye that had the tub changed at least twice, and
the drivetrain and suspension swapped numerable times. But it was still
"the original as raced in 1965".

'Should say, "the original as raced dangerously in 1965." As a friend of
mine said, it was the only car he could drive at 90 mph and feel as close to
dying as he did in a Formula Atlantic at 175. g

Quarter-elliptic springs and roll oversteer keep life very interesting.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

'Should say, "the original as raced dangerously in 1965." As a friend of
mine said, it was the only car he could drive at 90 mph and feel as close
to
dying as he did in a Formula Atlantic at 175. g

Quarter-elliptic springs and roll oversteer keep life very interesting.


I've a Bugeye and have had a bunch of them over the years. I don't find
them that much of a handful. One can get a Sprite to oversteer, but what
I'd call roll oversteer was typified by the Spitfire with its swing axles.
The Spit was famous for this. Sure you're not thinking of a Spitfire?

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

'Should say, "the original as raced dangerously in 1965." As a friend of
mine said, it was the only car he could drive at 90 mph and feel as
close
to
dying as he did in a Formula Atlantic at 175. g

Quarter-elliptic springs and roll oversteer keep life very interesting.


I've a Bugeye and have had a bunch of them over the years. I don't find
them that much of a handful.

It was a very common low-buck racer when I was involved ('67 - '72), and the
consensus was that you gritted your teeth and opened your eyes a little
wider in a Bugeye when you got up around 100...much like racing a Porsche
Speedster.

Roll oversteer occurs when you're in a turn and the outside rear wheel moves
backward, or the inside rear wheel moves forward, effectively steering the
back of the car to the outside of the turn. It's most common on cars with
solid axles and quarter-elliptic springs, such as Bugeye Sprites. They went
to semi-elliptics in later models because the cars were so squirrelly at
high speeds.

One can get a Sprite to oversteer, but what
I'd call roll oversteer was typified by the Spitfire with its swing axles.
The Spit was famous for this. Sure you're not thinking of a Spitfire?

That's a different kind of oversteer. Porsche 356s, VW bugs, early Corvairs,
and swing-axle Spitfires all did about the same thing, for the same reason.

With stock suspension, all of them tucked their rear wheels under in a turn
when you got above a certain threshhold of cornering speed. The outside
wheel would climb up on the sidewall and you'd go into drastic oversteer,
usually spinning out.

There were several fixes for it, and you had to use one of them to race most
of those cars. Decambering the rear end with shorter springs was one. Using
a stiff anti-roll bar would cure the tuck, but it would introduce an
oversteer problem of its own. There also was a strange sort of anti-roll bar
called a "Z-bar" that was used some on Formula Vs. I think it had a
short-lived popularity, but maybe they're still around.

The first car I raced was a John Fitch Corvair GT. It was a swing-axle car
('63) and it had the Fitch rear-suspension treatment, which was 2 deg. of
negative camber and adjustable Koni shocks. It worked pretty well but it
produced a strange phenomenon: when you started to turn right, the car would
make a slight dart to the left, and vice versa. It felt a little like
steering a motorcycle by steering slightly away from the turn to start your
entry.

Anyway, it prevented the tuck, and with radial tires, it made handling
fairly predictable. After a year of driving that I took a Porsche Speedster
around the track and I felt right at home.

BTW, old Spitfires usually were given a *lot* of negative camber, 2-1/2
degrees or so, for road racing.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:30:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

That's a different kind of oversteer. Porsche 356s, VW bugs, early Corvairs,
and swing-axle Spitfires all did about the same thing, for the same reason.

With stock suspension, all of them tucked their rear wheels under in a turn
when you got above a certain threshhold of cornering speed. The outside
wheel would climb up on the sidewall and you'd go into drastic oversteer,
usually spinning out.

If you were lucky. I never raced, but for some years I was the guy in
white coveralls hiding behind a haybale on the corner with a fire
extinguisher ready to hand.

One Volkswagen I saw flip in a hairpin turn went completely over after
jacking its left rear wheel. There wasn't a mark on it save for the
right side fenders, which as near as we could figure was the first
thing to hit the ground.

"John Ings" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:30:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

That's a different kind of oversteer. Porsche 356s, VW bugs, early
Corvairs,
and swing-axle Spitfires all did about the same thing, for the same
reason.

With stock suspension, all of them tucked their rear wheels under in a
turn
when you got above a certain threshhold of cornering speed. The outside
wheel would climb up on the sidewall and you'd go into drastic oversteer,
usually spinning out.

If you were lucky. I never raced, but for some years I was the guy in
white coveralls hiding behind a haybale on the corner with a fire
extinguisher ready to hand.

One Volkswagen I saw flip in a hairpin turn went completely over after
jacking its left rear wheel. There wasn't a mark on it save for the
right side fenders, which as near as we could figure was the first
thing to hit the ground.

Feeling the rear end jack up on you, in a swing-axle car, is one of the most
sickening feelings I can recall driving a car, short of staring at a car you
know you're going to hit and seeing everything go into slow-motion. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

It was a very common low-buck racer when I was involved ('67 - '72), and
the
consensus was that you gritted your teeth and opened your eyes a little
wider in a Bugeye when you got up around 100...much like racing a Porsche
Speedster.

I raced from '78 to '88, but never a Sprite so I can't say I have any
experience in one at 100MPH. I do have plenty of experience with them
sideways at lower speeds and never found them particularly demanding.

What class and region did you race in? I did ITB and GTA in the San
Francisco region. Along with karts and autocross too. I was busy there for
a couple of years...

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

It was a very common low-buck racer when I was involved ('67 - '72), and
the
consensus was that you gritted your teeth and opened your eyes a little
wider in a Bugeye when you got up around 100...much like racing a
Porsche
Speedster.

I raced from '78 to '88, but never a Sprite so I can't say I have any
experience in one at 100MPH. I do have plenty of experience with them
sideways at lower speeds and never found them particularly demanding.

What class and region did you race in? I did ITB and GTA in the San
Francisco region. Along with karts and autocross too. I was busy there
for
a couple of years...

Yeah, that sounds pretty busy. I raced for a time in FP and GP, North Jersey
Region. I also raced in Michigan for a few months. I thought it was called
Central Michigan but I see now that it's Western Michigan. Maybe they
re-aligned the region in the last 35 years. g

In '83 I went back to driver's school in an ITC car, but the medical
examiner wouldn't let me race. That's why I quit in '73. Actually, they
wouldn't renew my license.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
| "Eric R Snow" wrote in message
| ...
| Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
| 1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
| tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
| The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
| tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
| guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
| with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
| would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
| web sites, museums ?
| Thanks,
| Eric R Snow,
| E T Precision Machine

SNIP|

| Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
| Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

This is the book I have and I second the suggestion. Paperback. Short
on specifics and all that, but the book isn't meant to be a mathematical
treatise, and even states that as such. Other than that, there is great
explanation of coming up with a good design, which I thoroughly enjoyed
reading.

SNIP

carl mciver wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
| "Eric R Snow" wrote in message
| ...
| Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
| 1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
| tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
| The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
| tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
| guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
| with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
| would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
| web sites, museums ?
| Thanks,
| Eric R Snow,
| E T Precision Machine

| Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
| Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

This is the book I have and I second the suggestion. Paperback. Short
on specifics and all that, but the book isn't meant to be a mathematical
treatise, and even states that as such. Other than that, there is great
explanation of coming up with a good design, which I thoroughly enjoyed
reading.

Have you ever looked at a "Bird cage Masaratti" ?
Back in about 1959 or so I saw my first one and thought how neet.
...lew...

I have two other books on racing and sports car design that also make
interesting reading.

Racing car design and development by Len Terry & Alan Baker
ISBN 0-8376-0080-4

The sports car it's design and performance by Colin Campbell
ISBN 0-8376-0158-4

regards,

John


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

This is the space frame car I want to build.
http://www.houlihane.co.uk/locost.htm
I've got the book. One day when I have space and money. Basically a Lotus 7.
Karl

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So, books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Ed, I guess I got into this thread a bit late. I was about to recommend
Mike Costin's book (I also have a 1965 or thereabouts copy), and was going
to comment on the "birdcage" Maserati too. You beat me to both. We must
share the same passion. I used to have a piece of Maserati type 61 bell
housing that landed at my feet when a driver at the Cumberland MD races blew
up his clutch halfway down the straight. Ah, those were the days.

When I lived in the UK, I visited the shop of a guy who builds Morgan
3-wheelers virtually from scratch. (OK, nothing to do with space frames,
but a really cool cul de sac in automotive history.) If you can find a hulk
chassis, he'll build you a car. He was even casting gearboxes for some
models.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:51:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Awright, I know there's folks here who know about this. After seeing
a
1949 Ferrari 166MM on the show "Victory By Design" I wanna learn
about
tubular space frames. That 166MM car has a just about perfect body.
The looks of the car just blew me away when it first showed up on the
tv screen. The interior and the engine were also spectacular. So , I
guess books should be a good starting point but what about web sites
with examples. And a link to pictures of the 166MM with the body off
would be great too. I've googled and haven't found any yet. So,
books,
web sites, museums ?
Thanks,
Eric R Snow,
E T Precision Machine

Welcome to my secret passion. g First off, the 166M (popularly known
as
the Barchetta [bar-ket-a], not to be confused with the more recent
Ferrari
of the same name) did not have a space frame. It was twin-tube. As an
aside,
the Barchetta is the car copied by AC of the UK and which became the AC
Ace.
Carrol Shelby stuffed a Ford V8 into the Ace and it became the Cobra.
Then
Shelby beat the Ferraris with it for the World GT Championship.

Back to the question, there is one book that is an absolute must for
anyone
interested in space frame car construction, _Racing & Sports Car
Chassis
Design_, by M. Costin and D. Phipps. I have an original copy from 1965,
but
I'm told it was recently reprinted. You need that book if you want to
avoid
going around in circles. It's still *the* book for understanding the
ideas
behind space frames.

Beyond that, _Chassis Engineering_ by Herb Adams, and _Race Car Chassis
Design and Construction_ by Forbes Aird. I think they're both in print.

There are other chassis books but I don't know how much they talk about
space frames. I have a couple of others but they're mostly about
monocoque
and other types.

There also is a welding book that specifically talks about welding
space
frames, _Performance Welding_ by Richard Finch. It's pretty good.
Ignore
what he says about brazing 4130. He's wrong about that.

Web sites? About Ferraris or space frames? 'Lots about Ferraris. Little
about space frames. I've looked.

Regarding racing frame history, here's a short sequence: 1) Ladder-type
frames. 2) Twin-tube frames. 3) Multi-tube frames (Cooper). 4) Space
frames
(1948 Cisitalia; 1952 Lotus and Mercedes-Benz). 5) Semi-monocoque. 6)
Monocoque ("tubs").

That will keep you oriented. It's all explained in Costin & Phipps'
book.
Have fun.
Thanks Ed,
The show said it was a tubular space frame. I think.

They may have said it. They may not know exactly what a "space frame" is.
Don't be surprised, even some serious car historians can't tell a space
frame from a henhouse. g

Ferrari and Maserati used twin-tube frames until well after their time was
passed. I don't think Ferrari made a space frame until the late '50s. The
same is true of several other major makes that won races anyway. It's a
complicated story, the interaction of chassis design, engine power, tires,
and suspension. It was clear by 1952 that space frames were superior but
tires and suspensions weren't yet up to the job of exploiting the extra
stiffness. The Cobra, even in 427 form and into the late '80s, was winning
races with a twin-tube chassis.

In the case of old Ferraris, some people get confused because there is a
lot
of small structural tubing under the hood. But the "structure" is body
framing, not the car chassis. It doesn't support the major weights
(engine,
trans, passengers, fuel tank) and it isn't tied to the suspension. It just
stiffens the body and connects it to the chassis. Thus, it's not part of
the
chassis structure.

I'll watch it
again. It's too bad that it seems like there are no pictures of the
166MM without the body on.

Chassis pics of most cars are hard to come by. I have some, including an
Elva Courier which many people said was a space frame, back when I did a
little racing. When you look at the naked chassis, you realize it isn't
so.
It's actually a very flimsy twin-tube with some body framing tacked on.

Someone gave me a coffee-table book as a present, _Inside 100 Great Cars_,
by David Hodges, which is the best collection of chassis cut-away drawings
I've ever seen. If you can find it, you might want to get one of those.
The
oldest Ferrari it shows is a 250 GTO, which is a fully triangulated space
frame.

BTW, the drawing you really want to see is the Maserati Tipo 60/61. They
didn't call it the "Birdcage" for nothing. g

I suppose it will be easier to find
pictures of ACs though. I'll look for the books you mentioned. Man, if
I had the time now I'd build a 166MM. What a car!

Look at this and drool:

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/ferrari.html

Those chassis photos, BTW, are of a multi-tube chassis almost trying to be
a
space frame, but not quite making it. Ferrari just didn't have advanced
chassis until the 1960s.

The mark of a true space frame is that all structural tubes are straight,
and all loads are resolved at tube-end joints, with the overall structure
fully triangulated in three dimensions. If you see a tube connecting
mid-span along another tube, chances are it's not a space frame (although
it
could be; further discussion is necessary). If you see a pair of
trussed-girders on the sides of a car, but with no triangulation across
the
chassis that resists front-to-rear torsion loads, it's not a true space
frame. Likewise, if you see a bent tube and it's structural, the frame is
not a space frame (Coopers were built like that). The Cobra Daytona Coupe
has a number of bent tubes, for example, but they are not structural as
far
as I can tell from photos.

--
Ed Huntress

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
Ed, I guess I got into this thread a bit late. I was about to recommend
Mike Costin's book (I also have a 1965 or thereabouts copy), and was going
to comment on the "birdcage" Maserati too. You beat me to both. We must
share the same passion. I used to have a piece of Maserati type 61 bell
housing that landed at my feet when a driver at the Cumberland MD races
blew
up his clutch halfway down the straight. Ah, those were the days.

They sure were. I miss that racing. I was talking to my old boss earlier
this week, an Italian and a big F1 fan, and he asked me why I don't care
about F1 anymore. I couldn't answer him except to say that the technology
has gotten so good, and it so permeates the sport, that I wonder what it is
I'm watching when I see a race. I don't know who is driving whom.

He told me that Nicki Lauda got into a F1 car recently and drove it around
the track, after having been out of the sport for a while, and he said "a
trained monkey could drive this." g

Maybe that's it.


When I lived in the UK, I visited the shop of a guy who builds Morgan
3-wheelers virtually from scratch. (OK, nothing to do with space frames,
but a really cool cul de sac in automotive history.) If you can find a
hulk
chassis, he'll build you a car. He was even casting gearboxes for some
models.

Neat old...er, vehicles. I liked the ones with the J.A.P. or Matchless
V-twins hanging out front.

--
Ed Huntress