Hi,

I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.

I was thinking of putting in a change over switch to run the motor from the generator when the power goes out as it does regularly out here.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Unive.../dp/B01IZ5ZFYC

To save me dragging the gen-set out and starting it to find out what is coming out of the 240-socket, thought I'd ask here.

The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the others are Neutral and 240v.

How do I go about wiring that to run the motor? An ASCII diagram would be good.

Thanks

On 5/25/2018 10:40 AM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
Hi,

I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.

I was thinking of putting in a change over switch to run the motor from the generator when the power goes out as it does regularly out here.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Unive.../dp/B01IZ5ZFYC

To save me dragging the gen-set out and starting it to find out what is coming out of the 240-socket, thought I'd ask here.

The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the others are Neutral and 240v.

How do I go about wiring that to run the motor? An ASCII diagram would be good.

Thanks

Â* I think you'll find that those 3 pins are neutral and 220 on the
other 2 , with either hot to the neutral at 110 . Mine has a 4 wire
socket , with 2 hots a neutral and a ground . I suggest you look up your
model generator on the interwebs and see what the owners manual says .
Out of curiosity , what's the motor do ? Just sit there and run or does
it power something ?

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 9:32:00 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:
Â* I think you'll find that those 3 pins are neutral and 220 on the
other 2 , with either hot to the neutral at 110 .

Thanks Terry,

It is only a 3-hole twist-lock socket on the generator. Looks like I will have to crank it up and get the meter out. I seem to recall using it to power something 220/240v about 6-years back, but no idea what wiring I used.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:

Hi,

I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.

I was thinking of putting in a change over switch to run the motor from the generator when the power goes out as it does regularly out here.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Unive.../dp/B01IZ5ZFYC

To save me dragging the gen-set out and starting it to find out what is coming out of the 240-socket, thought I'd ask here.

The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the others are Neutral and 240v.

How do I go about wiring that to run the motor? An ASCII diagram would be good.

Thanks
If your gen ouit is 240, nor 120/240, the motor will connect across
the 2 "line out" terminals while the third terminal will be a ground -
no neutral.

If it is 120/240 it will have 4 wires unless it is ANCIENT

On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:

Hi,

I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.

I was thinking of putting in a change over switch to run the motor from the generator when the power goes out as it does regularly out here.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Unive.../dp/B01IZ5ZFYC

To save me dragging the gen-set out and starting it to find out what is coming out of the 240-socket, thought I'd ask here.

The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the others are Neutral and 240v.

How do I go about wiring that to run the motor? An ASCII diagram would be good.

Thanks
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless it is tied to
the generator ground and the generator is grounded. I'm betting that
one wire is ground and that neither of the other two wires are tied to
ground, meaning that there is no neutral wire on the 240 volt output.
So you really need to get out the meter and see what the 240 out
really is.
Eric

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
....
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
....
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.

--
jiw

Dave, I can't do that wrote:
On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 9:32:00 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:
I think you'll find that those 3 pins are neutral and 220 on the
other 2 , with either hot to the neutral at 110 .

Thanks Terry,

It is only a 3-hole twist-lock socket on the generator. Looks like I
will have to crank it up and get the meter out. I seem to recall
using it to power something 220/240v about 6-years back, but no idea
what wiring I used.



Three wires is a common generator output. You will find that you have
110 - 0 - 110 volts. Just the same that feeds into a breaker box.
The fourth wire that you need is ground. On 99.9% of generators you will
find a ground lug on the generator head or near the output panel. That
goes to a good ground.



--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in message
news
Dave, I can't do that wrote:
On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 9:32:00 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:
I think you'll find that those 3 pins are neutral and 220 on the
other 2 , with either hot to the neutral at 110 .

Thanks Terry,

It is only a 3-hole twist-lock socket on the generator. Looks like
I
will have to crank it up and get the meter out. I seem to recall
using it to power something 220/240v about 6-years back, but no
idea
what wiring I used.



Three wires is a common generator output. You will find that you
have 110 - 0 - 110 volts. Just the same that feeds into a breaker
box.
The fourth wire that you need is ground. On 99.9% of generators you
will find a ground lug on the generator head or near the output
panel. That goes to a good ground.
--
Steve W.

Generator grounding isn't obvious because it interacts with other
considerations, for instance checking for buried utility lines before
driving a ground rod, or impenetrable frozen soil.
https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hur...generator.html

Neutral is the power return conductor. Ground is for safety, only
carries fault current, and is connected (bonded) to Neutral only at
the main breaker box, or the generator frame when it is an isolated,
"separately derived" power source.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Techn...3-05%20(1).pdf
"In other words, a ground rod is not required and, in fact, may create
a hazard."

Naval standards don't ground the neutral so that a single short won't
take down the ship's power. The problem with grid power is that the
pole transformer secondary could short to the 19.9KV distribution
line and bring high voltage into your house if you didn't have a
ground rod connected to the neutral. That isn't an issue for
generators.

On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral does have current running through it.
Eric

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

Â* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the
gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral does have current running through it.
Eric

The neutral is the center tap of the pole transformer, and the return
for 120V loads. If you pull 50A from one hot leg and 40A from the
other, the 10A difference will flow back on the neutral.

A voltmeter tells you nothing about currents, you need a clamp-on
ammeter to measure them.

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag

The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents. If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has 100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't create or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of wheat in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw

On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents. If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has 100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't create or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of wheat in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Â* Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I said ,
in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary , but the
idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents. If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary , but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag

The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and redundant and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side, odd or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly. I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to cover up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw

On 5/26/2018 3:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents. If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary , but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and redundant and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side, odd or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly. I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to cover up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw


Â* Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current . Just
seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro wiring a
new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard to balancing
loads .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On Sat, 26 May 2018 09:53:43 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral does have current running through it.
Eric
Not when the circuit is ballanced

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 3:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240
but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally
a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through
it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents.
If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the
neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases
the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the
two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't
create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate
this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential
calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of
wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back
to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I
said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary ,
but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may
not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial
installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented
changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and redundant
and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your
well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side, odd
or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air
compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly. I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V
anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to cover
up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw


Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current .
Just seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro
wiring a new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard
to balancing loads .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown


I think balancing the loads is a good idea too, but I wouldn't let it
override other standards.
https://www.thespruce.com/common-ele...y-room-1152276

On 26/05/18 22:56, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 3:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240
but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally
a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through
it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents.
If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the
neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases
the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the
two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't
create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate
this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential
calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of
wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back
to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I
said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary ,
but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may
not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial
installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented
changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and redundant
and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your
well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side, odd
or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air
compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly. I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V
anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to cover
up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw


Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current .
Just seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro
wiring a new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard
to balancing loads .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

I think balancing the loads is a good idea too, but I wouldn't let it
override other standards.
https://www.thespruce.com/common-ele...y-room-1152276



In the UK and Europe the neutral takes the same current as the live in
single phase 240VÂ* systems which it would do in the US if you were only
pulling current from one side of the centre tapped transformer.

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 May 2018 09:53:43 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral does have current running through it.
Eric
Not when the circuit is ballanced

True but irrelevant. When you drill a hole do you turn on a grinder to
balance the demand?

"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 26/05/18 22:56, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 3:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer
socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240
but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is
Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they
are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no
potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in
the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they
are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more
generally
a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is
in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through
it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg
currents.
If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the
neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases
the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the
two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops
of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral
has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents
into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't
create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate
this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential
calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an
empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of
wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent
back
to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse
the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded
tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as
I
said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary ,
but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may
not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial
installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented
changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and
redundant
and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your
well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side,
odd
or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air
compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating
oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly.
I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V
anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to
cover
up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw


Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my
house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current
.
Just seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a
pro
wiring a new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no
regard
to balancing loads .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

I think balancing the loads is a good idea too, but I wouldn't let
it
override other standards.
https://www.thespruce.com/common-ele...y-room-1152276



In the UK and Europe the neutral takes the same current as the live
in single phase 240V systems which it would do in the US if you were
only pulling current from one side of the centre tapped transformer.


Our hots and neutrals are the same gauge and as I pointed out the
neutral current can't be more than the greater of the hot currents;
the other 180-out 'phase' can only reduce it. Any imbalance doesn't
feed back beyond the pole or distribution transformer which has a
single 'phase' primary, so I don't see a significant problem as long
as the currents stay within the wire, breaker and transformer ratings.

Three phase imbalance does feed back into the grid.

I tried to roughly balance them in the industrial equipment I designed
because I had no idea what else might be on the circuits, then or
later. However the control circuit was all on the same breaker pole
and usually there wasn't anything comparable to put on the other
one(s).
-jsw

On 5/26/2018 4:56 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 3:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 2:12 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240
but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally
a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through
it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
... so I corrected your statement .

--
Snag
The neutral carries the difference between the hot leg currents.
If
the load current is 100A on one leg and 0A on the other the
neutral
will carry 100A. Increasing the load on the other leg decreases
the
current in the neutral, so with 100A through both hot legs the
neutral
carries 0A, not 200A, and it can be the same size cable as the
two
hots.

Conceptually you get the right answer if you treat both loops of
the
circuit as separate and then add the currents, If the neutral has
100A
flowing in from one hot leg and simultaneously 100A out to the
other
they will sum to 0

The relevant circuit analysis principle is that the currents into
and
out of a wire junction have to sum to zero, since you can't
create
or
destroy electrons. A capacitor at the junction doesn't negate
this
rule, it turns the solution into a problem in differential
calculus
whose answer is an equation of voltage versus time.

The Romans used the same net-sum principle to run an empire-wide
checking system. When a merchant wrote a check for a cargo of
wheat
in
Egypt the amount was simply deducted from tax payments sent back
to
Rome, and when he returned home the merchant had to reimburse the
treasury (or become lion poop). Thus only the heavily guarded tax
shipments were at risk from storms or pirates.
-jsw


Jim , I was an electrician when I was in the Navy ... and as I
said
, in a properly balanced load center neutral current will vary ,
but
the idea is to minimize it .

--
Snag
The ship designers can predict and apportion the loads, which may
not
be practical for residential, commercial or industrial
installations
subject to unexpected, unengineered and perhaps undocumented
changes.
Plus warships are necessarily relatively symmetrical and redundant
and
lack the enormous motor startup surge capacity of the grid. The
analysis I gave works for all situations, not just your
well-designed
and controlled ones.

I've traced and numbered my home outlets so I know which side, odd
or
even, they are all on. But I have to plug the portable air
compressor
and MIG, microwave, window air conditioners and heat treating oven
into whichever hot leg's outlet is nearby. The 120V heating and
cooling loads will never be balanced because they cycle randomly. I
have a 200A electric heat service so balancing 20A loads doesn't
matter, and the big compressor, TIG and plasma cutter are 240V
anyway.

What can you tell of the South Dakota incident?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wars...al-t24931.html

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/museum/War_Damage/57.pdf
"That won't help you very much. The report was whitewashed to cover
up
what had happened. You may look in vain for any reference to the
sabotage."

-jsw


Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current .
Just seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro
wiring a new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard
to balancing loads .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

I think balancing the loads is a good idea too, but I wouldn't let it
override other standards.
https://www.thespruce.com/common-ele...y-room-1152276



Â* I have outlets every 6 feet , no more than 6 per circuit and all with
#12 and 20A breakers . 2 circuits per room (plus designated , like for
A/C) except the kitchen , it gets 4 plus the refr/dishwasher . 2 for the
island alone (on different legs of course) because it's nickname is
"appliance central" .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:31:59 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:


* I think you'll find that those 3 pins are neutral and 220 on the
other 2 , with either hot to the neutral at 110 .

The 3 conductor 240 volt cable is 2 hots and ground. No neutral and
thus no 120 volts.
Mine has a 4 wire
socket , with 2 hots a neutral and a ground .

That's what it takes to have a neutral and a safety ground.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:

Hi,

I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.

I was thinking of putting in a change over switch to run the motor from the generator when the power goes out as it does regularly out here.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Unive.../dp/B01IZ5ZFYC

To save me dragging the gen-set out and starting it to find out what is coming out of the 240-socket, thought I'd ask here.

Oh, no. Don't ask someone else. If you're going to wire it yourself,
discover it yourself. It'll be in the manual, too.

I got some of these from Ebay for my solar setup. Manual Transfer
Switches, aka ORred circuit breakers. They run from 3A to 63A.
https://is.gd/zddRgx You have to physically turn one off before the
other will engage.

The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the others are Neutral and 240v.

No, it's much more likely to have phase lines (120vac) plus a ground
for the genset. US 240vac has no neutral, only the 120vac does (line,
neutral, and ground).

How do I go about wiring that to run the motor? An ASCII diagram would be good.

CAREFULLY. If in doubt, hire an electrician. Do the box install,
switch install, and wire running yourself, and just have Sparky
connect the wires to save money. Call them first to see if they will
allow you to do that, though. Some want to do it all themselves. I
saved $100 by doing my own wiring/outdoor breaker box for the A/C
unit.

Look at the genset diagram, look at the wiring from the socket, and
follow the colors they use on your socket and extension cord. (black
white green, black white bare, black red green, or black red bare
usually. Green/bare is always ground.)

I'd run the two phase wires from the output of the circuit breaker to
the rotary or MT switch Input 1 terminals, run the two phase wires
from the genset to the rotary MT switch Input 2 terminals.

Then I'd run the existing wires (removed from the existing circuit
breaker outputs) to the output terminals from the rotary or MT switch.
Those wires go directly to the dryer socket on the wall. And run the
ground from the genset to the circuit breaker panel ground bar.
Be sure to cover the hot side of the switch, so fingers couldn't
accidentally touch the hots. That hurts.

Is your generator box outside, near the circuit breaker box, so you
can drill a hole, put in a waterproof socket, and make a short
extension cord from the genset to the house, where the switch will go?
It makes things easier.


I bought a 250' roll of 12/2 w/ ground Romex for outleted circuits and
100' of nice, flexible 12/3 wire for 240v bandsaw/DC/tablesaw and
extension cord when I got this new-used house. There was no 240v in
the (2-car) shop, so I put in 3 outlets, ran the wiring, and removed
the 240v electric wallboard heaters, reusing the old circuit breakers
for the shop.

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle

On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
Â* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

Â* Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting your
meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it . Look at it
like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220 supply with the
connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the two loads are
unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If the two loads are
the same neutral current will be zero .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On Sat, 26 May 2018 18:01:24 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
The neutral of a 120/240 circuit is a SHARED neutral.
From the point where the 2 branch circuits join, a balanced circuit
neutral carries no current.
Yes - every branch circuit neutral carries current, but if the load
L1 to neutral and L2 to neutral are exactly equal in both current and
power factor, there is no current flow in the shared neutral.

Take a transformer with a center tapped secondary and put the same
load on each side of the secondary.

Lets say it is a center tapped 24 volt secondary - with 12 volts on
each side of center.
Put 12 ohms across each side. You get 1 amp flowing through each load
to the center tap. You get one amp total current in the secondary - so
what current is flowing in the center tap?
ZERO.

There can be NO OTHER ANSWER.

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized
...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply
to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both
wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired
my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire
way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance
the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show
less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power
comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting
your meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it .
Look at it like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220
supply with the connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the
two loads are unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If
the two loads are the same neutral current will be zero .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown


The neutral current will be zero only on the grid side of the breaker
box neutral terminal block. The current going out to each grinder
through the black wire will return through the white wire, then pass
to the other grinder's white wire through the terminal block.

On 5/27/2018 6:01 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized
...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply
to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both
wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired
my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire
way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance
the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show
less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power
comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting
your meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it .
Look at it like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220
supply with the connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the
two loads are unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If
the two loads are the same neutral current will be zero .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

The neutral current will be zero only on the grid side of the breaker
box neutral terminal block. The current going out to each grinder
through the black wire will return through the white wire, then pass
to the other grinder's white wire through the terminal block.


Â* Unless the whites are tied together outside the box as my suggestion
implies .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/27/2018 6:01 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs

wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240
but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally
a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through
it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be
minimized
...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in
reply
to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both
wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I
wired
my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the
wire
way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the
same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did
balance
the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg
of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show
less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power
comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was
inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts
,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting
your meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it .
Look at it like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220
supply with the connection between motors hooked to neutral . If
the
two loads are unequal the difference is carried by the neutral .
If
the two loads are the same neutral current will be zero .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

The neutral current will be zero only on the grid side of the
breaker
box neutral terminal block. The current going out to each grinder
through the black wire will return through the white wire, then
pass
to the other grinder's white wire through the terminal block.


Unless the whites are tied together outside the box as my
suggestion implies .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown


I'm not touching that one.

On Sat, 26 May 2018 21:38:22 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

* Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting your
meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it . Look at it
like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220 supply with the
connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the two loads are
unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If the two loads are
the same neutral current will be zero .
I get that Terry. But since only one grinder is plugged in the neutral
has current on it. So in my shop the load is almost never balanced.
This is because even though the receptacles may be the same number on
each leg the stuff plugged into them and running is almost never the
same load. I'm glad I got that cleared up in my mind.
Eric

On Sat, 26 May 2018 22:53:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 18:01:24 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
The neutral of a 120/240 circuit is a SHARED neutral.
From the point where the 2 branch circuits join, a balanced circuit
neutral carries no current.
Yes - every branch circuit neutral carries current, but if the load
L1 to neutral and L2 to neutral are exactly equal in both current and
power factor, there is no current flow in the shared neutral.

Take a transformer with a center tapped secondary and put the same
load on each side of the secondary.

Lets say it is a center tapped 24 volt secondary - with 12 volts on
each side of center.
Put 12 ohms across each side. You get 1 amp flowing through each load
to the center tap. You get one amp total current in the secondary - so
what current is flowing in the center tap?
ZERO.

There can be NO OTHER ANSWER.
I got a little confused because the 125 volt loads in my shop are
almost never balanced. BTW, the reason I wrote 125 and 250 volts is
because that's what the voltage measures to my shop. Sometimes surges
higher too. PSE says it's all good. All my CNC machine controls have
multi tapped transformers so the high voltage is OK for the controls
but one machine has a VFD that can't handle the voltage spikes and
shuts down. When decelerating the spindle the energy is fed back into
the incoming power and this also causes voltage spikes. I had to wire
in two buck transformers to lower the 3 phase voltage for the one
machine to fix the problem.
Eric

On Sun, 27 May 2018 10:54:59 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 21:38:22 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

* Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting your
meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it . Look at it
like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220 supply with the
connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the two loads are
unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If the two loads are
the same neutral current will be zero .
I get that Terry. But since only one grinder is plugged in the neutral
has current on it. So in my shop the load is almost never balanced.
This is because even though the receptacles may be the same number on
each leg the stuff plugged into them and running is almost never the
same load. I'm glad I got that cleared up in my mind.
Eric

One can NEVER balance the loads. One can try..but its nearly
impossible.

Putting all the high current stuff on one leg and the bathroom fart
fan on the other is to be avoided..but getting it "equalized" is never
going to happen.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 27 May 2018 11:02:40 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 22:53:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 18:01:24 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric

* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
The neutral of a 120/240 circuit is a SHARED neutral.
From the point where the 2 branch circuits join, a balanced circuit
neutral carries no current.
Yes - every branch circuit neutral carries current, but if the load
L1 to neutral and L2 to neutral are exactly equal in both current and
power factor, there is no current flow in the shared neutral.

Take a transformer with a center tapped secondary and put the same
load on each side of the secondary.

Lets say it is a center tapped 24 volt secondary - with 12 volts on
each side of center.
Put 12 ohms across each side. You get 1 amp flowing through each load
to the center tap. You get one amp total current in the secondary - so
what current is flowing in the center tap?
ZERO.

There can be NO OTHER ANSWER.
I got a little confused because the 125 volt loads in my shop are
almost never balanced. BTW, the reason I wrote 125 and 250 volts is
because that's what the voltage measures to my shop. Sometimes surges
higher too. PSE says it's all good. All my CNC machine controls have
multi tapped transformers so the high voltage is OK for the controls
but one machine has a VFD that can't handle the voltage spikes and
shuts down. When decelerating the spindle the energy is fed back into
the incoming power and this also causes voltage spikes. I had to wire
in two buck transformers to lower the 3 phase voltage for the one
machine to fix the problem.
Eric


That is VERY common, particularly in "non industrial" areas. Until
the local power company came through and rewired the entire area..I
had to buck boost my feed to my shop..as I had similar issues with
several VFDs.

The other problem was...low power in summer time...many many a/c units
in the area running here in the desert..and if they were slow in
changing the taps in the distribution feed transformers in the
fall..overly high voltage.

Gunner

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On 5/26/2018 4:56 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Â* Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house ,
and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current . Just
seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro wiring a
new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard to balancing
loads .


I'd say that "right" implies that otherwise is wrong and it really
doesn't make ANY difference, except to the power company. Because the
only neutral current that you're minimizing is that in the "drop" to
your panel. You have no control over the neutral currents in your panel
and circuits.

On 5/27/2018 3:32 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 5/26/2018 4:56 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Â*Â* Well Jim , all I can say is that I'm doing the wiring in my house
, and I'm trying to apportion loads to minimize neutral leg current .
Just seems like the right way to do it - though I can see why a pro
wiring a new house probably just sticks 'em wherever with no regard
to balancing loads .


I'd say that "right" implies that otherwise is wrong and it really
doesn't make ANY difference, except to the power company.Â* Because the
only neutral current that you're minimizing is that in the "drop" to
your panel.Â* You have no control over the neutral currents in your
panel and circuits.

Â* Would you like it more if I said "better" ? And FWIW I disagree with
your statement that I have "no control" over neutral currents . I may
not have a perfect balance , but I have a pretty good idea of what loads
will be on most circuits and that influences my decision on which leg to
place that load . And what difference does this make ultimately ?
Probably not a helluva lot . But if I can somewhat balance the load that
my supply transformer sees that can only be good . Or should I draw the
whole 200 amps (or as much as is 110V loads) my panel can handle from
one side ? If for no other reason than voltage sag I can't call that a
good idea . Symmetry !

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

On 5/27/2018 5:10 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/27/2018 3:32 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... Â* You have no control over the neutral currents in your
panel and circuits.

... And FWIW I disagree with
your statement that I have "no control" over neutral currents . I may
not have a perfect balance , but I have a pretty good idea of what loads
will be on most circuits and that influences my decision on which leg to
place that load . ...

Careful, now... I said "in your panel and circuits". Your balancing
does not affect any neutral current in your branch circuits. Only in
the aggregated current in the neutral wire coming to your panel.

On Sun, 27 May 2018 17:36:39 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 5/27/2018 5:10 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/27/2018 3:32 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... * You have no control over the neutral currents in your
panel and circuits.

... And FWIW I disagree with
your statement that I have "no control" over neutral currents . I may
not have a perfect balance , but I have a pretty good idea of what loads
will be on most circuits and that influences my decision on which leg to
place that load . ...

Careful, now... I said "in your panel and circuits". Your balancing
does not affect any neutral current in your branch circuits. Only in
the aggregated current in the neutral wire coming to your panel.



Unless you are using "edison circuits" - or sub-panels

On Sun, 27 May 2018 11:54:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 27 May 2018 10:54:59 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 21:38:22 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
* In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized ...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric

* Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting your
meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it . Look at it
like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220 supply with the
connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the two loads are
unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If the two loads are
the same neutral current will be zero .
I get that Terry. But since only one grinder is plugged in the neutral
has current on it. So in my shop the load is almost never balanced.
This is because even though the receptacles may be the same number on
each leg the stuff plugged into them and running is almost never the
same load. I'm glad I got that cleared up in my mind.
Eric

One can NEVER balance the loads. One can try..but its nearly
impossible.

Putting all the high current stuff on one leg and the bathroom fart
fan on the other is to be avoided..but getting it "equalized" is never
going to happen.


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If it was we wouldn't need a neutral wire, but the fact remains the
neutral will NEVER carry ALL of the load current if any of the load is
devided between lines. If that were not true the neutral would need
to be double the capacity of the "line" conductors.

On Sun, 27 May 2018 06:12:26 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/27/2018 6:01 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
news
On 5/26/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 12:11:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/26/2018 11:53 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do
that" wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket,
all good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground
and the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]
"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are
tied to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring,
neutral wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral CAN have current running through it.
Eric
In a properly balanced load center that current will be minimized
...
so I corrected your statement .
Greetings Terry,
Maybe you can educate me a little. After reading posts in reply
to
my post I got out the amp clamp and measured the current on both
wires
of the 125 volt receptacles in my shop. Plugging in a motor and
turning it on the meter shows the same current draw on both the
neutral and hot wires.In this case approximately 2.8 amps. I wired
my
shop with wire ways so it is easy to make measurements as the wire
way
covers come off easily and the wires just lay in the wire way.
All the 125 volt receptacles on one wall are fed from the same
breaker, on another wall another breaker, and so on. I did balance
the
load in the breaker panel so that two walls are fed from one leg of
the 250 volt supply and two walls from the the other leg.
I don't understand how the neutral can be balanced and show
less
current than the hot except at the breaker panel where the power
comes
in. What am I missing? What don't I understand?
I did wire the shop myself but I was helped by a licensed
electrician, the electrical code book, and the wiring was inspected
and bought off by a particularly picky inspector.
Thanks,
Eric
Picture this , two identical grinders that operate on 110 volts ,
each on one leg of the 220 power supply and to neutral . Putting
your meter on the neutral should show zero or very close to it .
Look at it like you've put 2 110 volt loads in series across a 220
supply with the connection between motors hooked to neutral . If the
two loads are unequal the difference is carried by the neutral . If
the two loads are the same neutral current will be zero .

--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown

The neutral current will be zero only on the grid side of the breaker
box neutral terminal block. The current going out to each grinder
through the black wire will return through the white wire, then pass
to the other grinder's white wire through the terminal block.


* Unless the whites are tied together outside the box as my suggestion
implies .

It's all about control.

I'm lean toward Eric and Jim's side of the fence, but I understand
where you're coming from. Old style electricians used to try to
balance circuits, with lights on one 120v leg and outlets on the other
120v leg of a 240v panel. That's a good thing.

May the EMF be with you.

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle

On Sat, 26 May 2018 18:40:06 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 May 2018 09:53:43 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2018 05:41:56 -0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:38:09 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:
I have a 1-1/2HP, 220v motor running from the dryer socket, all
good.
...
The house wiring uses the 3-wire 110-0-110 for the 220/240 but
the gen
has three pins for the 240-out. I am guessing one is Ground and
the
others are Neutral and 240v.
...
The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground in the breaker panel which means there is no potential
voltage
between the neutral wire and the ground wire, at least in the
breaker
panel. So there is no neutral on the generator unless [...]

"The reason neutral wires are called that is because they are tied
to
ground" seems to me to be incorrect. True, in US wiring, neutral
wires
usually have near-ground voltages on them, but more generally a
neutral
wire is one with no current flowing in it when a system is in
balance.
In US wiring the neutral does have current running through it.
Eric
Not when the circuit is ballanced

True but irrelevant. When you drill a hole do you turn on a grinder to
balance the demand?

What? You guys don't grind ambidextrously for load balance?

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle