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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave).
I mainly want this to run thru an amplifier to listen to the frequency repsonse of the amp and speakers. Nothing very scientific, just to see what these amps and speakers can do.... And on occasion to inject an audio signal into amp sections to dee if the audio is passing that stage. Originally I was looking at some of the old tube gear, such as the Eico model 377. I also looked at the Heathkit IG-18 a transistorized version from the 70s. Because I like that old test gear, I'd be happy to get either of these, or another similar. Both of these are Sine and Suqare Wave. But what I am finding is the prices combined with high S+H fees, make these things very costly, and I have not found any of them which claim to work. Sold as-is, for parts or repair. So, I may end up paying $60 or more and getting something that dont work, likely needs new caps, and so on..... If they were $25 or less, I'd take a chance, but not for that kind of money. My search on ebay lead me to something called a "Function Generator". What the heck is that??? And also called a DDS device. (I have no clue what DDS means). But I carefully looked at this NEW device, sold without a box (case), but only needs a power module and test leads. They sell for around $14 from China, but since I dont care to order from China, I'll probably have to hunt one down from the US, and pay around $5 or $10 more. But that's ok. These have both the Sine and Square wave, as well as Triangle wave (what does that sound like?). While I prefer the older stuff, for around $20 a cheap wal-wart, and a little work putting it into a box, I'd probably buy one of these, *IF* it will do what I need..... I have read all the info on the ebay pages, but I am not 100% sure that this is a modern replacement for the old audio generators. One nice thing, is that they will show the exact frequency on the digital readout. IS THIS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR? Is something like this made to really be used, or is it just another toy that does little and fails in a few months? And can something like this work to test tube amps, without blowing up from the high voltages in tube gear? One last thing that has me puzzled. There are two BNC connectors. One is labeled DDS, tho other is HS. I found this in the description. DDS frequency range: 1Hz-65534Hz, high-speed frequency (HS) output up to 8MHz. I dont understand how or what the high speed feature does. Why would an audio frequency be or need "high speed"? And what is the point for this device to go above 20,000 cps, since we cant hear that anyhow? Going up to 8MHZ seens senseless, unless this also serves as a RF signal generator. Here is the ebay URL. http://tinyurl.com/h5celuc |
#2
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 13/03/2017 19:26, wrote:
My search on ebay lead me to something called a "Function Generator". What the heck is that??? And also called a DDS device. (I have no clue what DDS means). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct...al_synthesizer Col --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#3
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
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#5
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
You can get a CD, tape or vinyl record that will do this, and it will also test the reproducer at the same time.
http://www.soundstagedirect.com/anal...8cUaAiwd8P8HAQ https://www.amazon.com/Stereophile-T.../dp/B00008FUKK http://www.gennlab.com/alignment_cassettes.html http://usrecordingmedia.com/ancaltap.html A function generator will be of use combined with a scope so that you can observe "before" and "after", but as a simple source of sound, not so much considering the real-estate it requires (Chinese chip devices excepted). However, if you do intend to get a (good) scope, then by all means a function generator is useful for several reasons. Note that some very good frequency generators operate both in AF and RF. Look for one of those unless you truly *WANT* a function generator. It won't be cheap for a good one, but it does put it all in one box. Or, you could go for the gold and get one that also has a waveform function - more money, but more utility as well. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#6
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 02:26:56 -0600, wrote:
I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). I mainly want this to run thru an amplifier to listen to the frequency repsonse of the amp and speakers. Here is the ebay URL. (...) http://tinyurl.com/h5celuc That DDS generator only goes up to 65KHz, does not have a built in frequency sweep feature, and does not have a sawtooth output or built in detector suitable for displaying a frequency sweep on an oscilloscope. To sweep an audio amplifier with a DDS, you will need a sine wave generator feature, and an up/down counter or frequency modulator to sweep the frequency range. First look at a real function generator. Next, build a checklist of the features you need. Then, go shopping using the feature list. You're doing this backwards. Note: You can use a PC sound card as a swept audio source and function generator: http://www.daqarta.com/dw_gen.htm http://www.instructables.com/id/PC-Sound-Card-Signal-Generator-Interface/?ALLSTEPS etc... Most of the PC based oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer programs have built in generators. I use Visual Analyzer: http://www.sillanumsoft.org/prod01.htm and Spectrum Lab: http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html Both have built in generator functions, including two tones for intermodulation measurements. This scope program has a tolerable white/pink noise generator. https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en Hint: Buy a higher resolution USB sound card that will do 24 bit 96 KHz, 192 KHz, or if you have money to spend, 384 KHz clock rate. The common 44/48KHz devices don't make very good test instruments. External USB is better because sound chips built into a PC or laptop pickup noise from everywhere. However, I must admit that $15 test equipment is lots of fun to play with. I have LRC meters, function generators, DDS RF generators, return loss bridges, noise generators, etc most of which cost about $15. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#7
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 3/13/2017 3:26 AM, wrote:
I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). If you have any interest in building one, look up the XR2206. It is an old but a pretty cool chip. It will do many functions up to 1 Mhz. Lots of info available, I even see one Arduino controlled unit. Mikek --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#8
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 3/13/2017 1:43 PM, amdx wrote:
On 3/13/2017 3:26 AM, wrote: I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). If you have any interest in building one, look up the XR2206. It is an old but a pretty cool chip. It will do many functions up to 1 Mhz. Lots of info available, I even see one Arduino controlled unit. Mikek Ebay has a XR2206 kit for $9 with a case. http://www.ebay.com/itm/171999013818 Here's a 4 part video of assembly, part 4, you can find 1,2 and 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&v=sKRbb0rJzOE Mikek --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:27:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: That DDS generator only goes up to 65KHz, does not have a built in frequency sweep feature, and does not have a sawtooth output or built in detector suitable for displaying a frequency sweep on an oscilloscope. To sweep an audio amplifier with a DDS, you will need a sine wave generator feature, and an up/down counter or frequency modulator to sweep the frequency range. First look at a real function generator. Next, build a checklist of the features you need. Then, go shopping using the feature list. You're doing this backwards. Note: You can use a PC sound card as a swept audio source and function generator: Thanks to all who replied. I read that WIkipedia article, which explained what these things are, (even though that article was like reading a legal manual). When I descibed this thing, I actually had looked at several of them from China, which all looked identical. One of them said it goes to 8mhz, using the BNC connector labeled HS. Either way, that dont much matter, since I have my old Eico tube signal generator, for RF use. I probably am doing this backward, but I really was not looking for something like this. I was looking for an old tube based audio generator, such as the Eico 377. But you know how ebay tends to show a hundred other things that are similar, and these function generators came up. I had to spend a good amount of time reading about them, since I was not familiar with them at all. I am somewhat aware about using a computer with software to act as a signal generator, oscilloscope, etc. I'll have to read up more on all of that, but in all honesty, I would not even consider connecting my laptop computer to anything other than and audio input connector on a tube amp. I said I also want something for testing interstage circuits, and that means applying a test probe to a spot inside a device that may have 400 or more volts on it. Even with a capacitor and other protection, there is no way in hell that I am gonna risk destroying an expensive and fragile laptop computer. And while I have several spare deshtop machines, I do not keep them in my shop. I dont have the space and I dont want to be distracted by computers when I'm soldering. If I do take any computers in my shop, it's my laptop, and I only do so to view a schematic on the screen. In all honesty, what I really want to buy is still an old tube type audio generator. That is what was made for the gear that I mostly work on, and that old tube stuff is built to hold up, as well as being easy to repair if it breaks. The problem is that this old tube stuff is selling for way too much money on ebay. Heck, some of those old Eico 377's are asking as much just for shipping as I am willing to pay for the whole thing, and one of them looks like it went thru a war, and is being sold For PARTS..... Which reminds me, does anyone know of other sources for buying that old tube test gear, besides ebay? There must be other sources.... It's NOT Amazon, I checked, even though I have never cared much for Amazon. They just dont sell old stuff like this. I might still buy one of these DDS devices, just for the heck of it. For $15, I'm sure I'll have some fun with it..... I actually found some of them (identical( located in the U.S. for $17. (I dont buy from China because it takes too long to get the stuff). I also found another one in the US that comes with the matching wall wart for $23. (Which I'd probably buy, or I will just end up having to spend another $5 or more to order that wart separately. So, the bottom line is that I may buy one of these DDS devices, but I will still continue to look for the tube type audio generator which is what I really want in my shop for testing my old tube gear. |
#10
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:43:04 -0500, amdx wrote:
On 3/13/2017 3:26 AM, wrote: I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). If you have any interest in building one, look up the XR2206. It is an old but a pretty cool chip. It will do many functions up to 1 Mhz. Lots of info available, I even see one Arduino controlled unit. Mikek I suppose I could look this up, but I have other things to do at the moment, so I am just gonna ask.... What is Arduino? I'm Old School, so I dont know much about all this new technology. |
#11
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
Hamfests.
Radio Shows. Local radio clubs (there is at least one, often several in every state). Craig's List. Put up a want-ad on Craig's List. Yard and Garage sales - especially in older neighborhoods. TV Repair shops - Amazing what some of them have sitting in the back room - *IF* one still exists in your area. And if you are anywhere near/around Kutztown, PA in May, the Kutztown Radio Show will have what you need at reasonable prices. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#12
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 3/13/2017 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:43:04 -0500, amdx wrote: On 3/13/2017 3:26 AM, wrote: I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). If you have any interest in building one, look up the XR2206. It is an old but a pretty cool chip. It will do many functions up to 1 Mhz. Lots of info available, I even see one Arduino controlled unit. Mikek I suppose I could look this up, but I have other things to do at the moment, so I am just gonna ask.... What is Arduino? I'm Old School, so I dont know much about all this new technology. Skip it, just look at this if it is of interest go look at the video. http://www.ebay.com/itm/171999013818 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#13
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: Hamfests. Radio Shows. Local radio clubs (there is at least one, often several in every state). Craig's List. Put up a want-ad on Craig's List. Yard and Garage sales - especially in older neighborhoods. TV Repair shops - Amazing what some of them have sitting in the back room - *IF* one still exists in your area. And if you are anywhere near/around Kutztown, PA in May, the Kutztown Radio Show will have what you need at reasonable prices. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA Where I live, in a very rural area, there is really no such thing as Hamfests unless I drive hundreds of miles. There is one in August, which is 60 miles from here. I plan to go to that, but that's months away. The last TV shop closed up about 10 years ago, around here. Even Radio Shack (25 miles away), is now a small corner in an appliance store. I am an avid yard/garage sale addict. If I see one, I MUST stop and see what they have.... LOL But electronic test gear is not something I have ever found. Around here, I'm more likely to find farm machinery and all the usual household junk. No, I am NOT near PA. I will look at Craigslist though. I have bought from CL quite a few times, but I never put a want-ad on it. That is a good thought. Dont they have any "Ham Fests" (Or similar) online? Because of where I live, I have to buy all my electronics parts and stuff online. There just is no other source nearby. (except for that very minimal Radio Shack store). Now, if any of you guys are looking for farm tractors, and machinery, cattle, horses, or anything like that, I can help. (Just dont ask me to ship them) |
#14
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
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#15
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
wrote in message ... I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). I mainly want this to run thru an amplifier to listen to the frequency repsonse of the amp and speakers. Nothing very scientific, just to see what these amps and speakers can do.... And on occasion to inject an audio signal into amp sections to dee if the audio is passing that stage. Originally I was looking at some of the old tube gear, such as the Eico model 377. I also looked at the Heathkit IG-18 a transistorized version from the 70s. Because I like that old test gear, I'd be happy to get either of these, or another similar. Both of these are Sine and Suqare Wave. Plenty of cheap function generators out there that do the basic sine, triangle and square-wave. Its worth checking the spec - if they start with sq-wave and convert to triangle and then sine; the sine could be a bit lumpy. Starting with sine gets better wave purity, but accuracy is not so good and the sq-w M/S ratio can be off. There are some good articles out there on testing audio response with other waveforms - a perfect square wave is the sum of an infinite series of sine waves. Taking that the other way round - a half-decent square-wave can tell you as much as a lot of different sinewaves all at once. At one time it was trendy to test audio with sawtooth, but I haven't seen any new articles recently. |
#16
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 13/03/2017 09:32, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2017-03-13, wrote: I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). I mainly want this to run thru an amplifier to listen to the frequency repsonse of the amp and speakers. Nothing very scientific, just to see what these amps and speakers can do.... And on occasion to inject an audio signal into amp sections to dee if the audio is passing that stage. Any reason you've not looked at PC software? Indeed. I favour Daquarta (sp?) for this sort of thing. The paid for version will even give you a realtime FFT vs time waterfall plot of the input signal and the signal generator part continues to work after the evaluation period. It can do the usual waveforms well enough for all but the most demanding tests. It is easily good enough for most audio work and allows you to see harmonic content of signals in realtime. The only disadvantage is that it perhaps isn't going to like mains voltages on the inputs/outputs of your PC so you would need to be careful. My search on ebay lead me to something called a "Function Generator". What the heck is that??? And also called a DDS device. (I have no clue what DDS means). look it up on wikipedia. it means that inside there's some sort of computer generating a digital wavform, that gets converted and comes out the output There used to be old school analogue function generator chips that made a triangle wave and then applied diode shaping to get a pseudo-sine wave. HP made one design implementation that was surprisingly good. Intersils 8038 was the poor mans alternative for DIY. http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/...l8/icl8038.pdf These days DDS is probably the way to go since it can do so much more. Testing power amps it is wiser to use frequency shaped noise rather than pure sine waves since you can hit mechanical resonances and damage acoustic drivers with quite modest power levels of pure sine wave. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#17
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
Martin Brown wrote:
These days DDS is probably the way to go since it can do so much more. Testing power amps it is wiser to use frequency shaped noise rather than pure sine waves since you can hit mechanical resonances and damage acoustic drivers with quite modest power levels of pure sine wave. ** **** I hate pig ignorant, bloody crossposters !!!!!! " ** Giant HUH ??? Testing amplifiers does not involve speakers AT ALL !!! Sine waves are the primary and still most revealing method. BTW, any speaker that cannot survive short term sine wave testing is not worth owning. You could not be more WRONG. " .... Phil |
#18
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
Off his meds, again.
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#19
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 3/13/2017 4:26 AM, wrote:
I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). I mainly want this to run thru an amplifier to listen to the frequency repsonse of the amp and speakers. Nothing very scientific, just to see what these amps and speakers can do.... And on occasion to inject an audio signal into amp sections to dee if the audio is passing that stage. Originally I was looking at some of the old tube gear, such as the Eico model 377. I also looked at the Heathkit IG-18 a transistorized version from the 70s. Because I like that old test gear, I'd be happy to get either of these, or another similar. Both of these are Sine and Suqare Wave. But what I am finding is the prices combined with high S+H fees, make these things very costly, and I have not found any of them which claim to work. Sold as-is, for parts or repair. So, I may end up paying $60 or more and getting something that dont work, likely needs new caps, and so on..... If they were $25 or less, I'd take a chance, but not for that kind of money. My search on ebay lead me to something called a "Function Generator". What the heck is that??? And also called a DDS device. (I have no clue what DDS means). But I carefully looked at this NEW device, sold without a box (case), but only needs a power module and test leads. They sell for around $14 from China, but since I dont care to order from China, I'll probably have to hunt one down from the US, and pay around $5 or $10 more. But that's ok. These have both the Sine and Square wave, as well as Triangle wave (what does that sound like?). While I prefer the older stuff, for around $20 a cheap wal-wart, and a little work putting it into a box, I'd probably buy one of these, *IF* it will do what I need..... I have read all the info on the ebay pages, but I am not 100% sure that this is a modern replacement for the old audio generators. One nice thing, is that they will show the exact frequency on the digital readout. IS THIS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR? Is something like this made to really be used, or is it just another toy that does little and fails in a few months? And can something like this work to test tube amps, without blowing up from the high voltages in tube gear? One last thing that has me puzzled. There are two BNC connectors. One is labeled DDS, tho other is HS. I found this in the description. DDS frequency range: 1Hz-65534Hz, high-speed frequency (HS) output up to 8MHz. I dont understand how or what the high speed feature does. Why would an audio frequency be or need "high speed"? And what is the point for this device to go above 20,000 cps, since we cant hear that anyhow? Going up to 8MHZ seens senseless, unless this also serves as a RF signal generator. Here is the ebay URL. http://tinyurl.com/h5celuc I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I see a lot of confusion of the terms "function generator" and "audio generator". Audio simply refers to the frequency range of the signal generated without saying anything about the manner in which it is generated. But most signal generators output a sine wave and perhaps a square and triangle wave. As others have said, they were often analog circuits that shaped one waveform into another. This is different from an "arbitrary waveform" generator which some seem to be calling a function generator. An arbitrary waveform generator has a pattern in memory which is played through a DAC to produce any function you wish which must repeat only when the memory capacity is reached. A DDS is another type of repeating waveform signal generator that also uses digital logic and a DAC. It uses an incrementer to model the phase of a signal cycle which then is translated into a waveform and played through a DAC. If you want a sawtooth wave, you just play the phase value through the DAC. A sine wave may be generated using a lookup table or some simple sine generation functions. Other waveforms can be generated using the lookup table or other mathematical functions. But all these signals must repeat at some period as defined by the amount the phase register is incremented at each clock. In fact, that is the strength of the DDS over an analog signal generator, the frequency of the output signal is very accurately defined. I'm not sure why you think these devices would not be reliable or are inherently inferior. The Ham community have been using DDS for some time now. Even if they aren't used to directly generate the frequency needed, they can be used as a tunable reference frequency with a PLL to generate a very accurate frequency of nearly any rational value. -- Rick C |
#20
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
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#21
Posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
On 3/13/2017 3:33 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:43:04 -0500, amdx wrote: On 3/13/2017 3:26 AM, wrote: I've been looking into buying an Audio Generator (Sine and Square Wave). If you have any interest in building one, look up the XR2206. It is an old but a pretty cool chip. It will do many functions up to 1 Mhz. Lots of info available, I even see one Arduino controlled unit. Mikek I suppose I could look this up, but I have other things to do at the moment, so I am just gonna ask.... What is Arduino? I'm Old School, so I dont know much about all this new technology. It's just a single board computer with plug in modules for a wide range of I/O functions. It also has one of the easiest to learn development systems for writing code. If your DDS has a serial port for control the Arduino could be used to make it do more complex functions by changing it from this waveform to that waveform in real time. -- Rick C |
#22
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Audio Generator or Function Generator? Which to get?
I like my Wavetek 111. It is old, and rated 0.5 % distortion but probably because of caps that goes up at lower frequencies, like 20 Hz. It is a function generator and that is what I would recommend.
For testing of audio equipment, the triangle wave can show distortion quite well. The square wave, at about 1 KHz is quite telling about the frequency response, though not a direct measurement. It is also fun to play with equalization on a 1 KHz square wave. It also has like a half ramp output that might be useful for the development of switching power supplies. It goes up to 1 MHz. I think that is enough. It was made here. Buying one however is a different story. They are old and most will need some caps, and they are a PITA to work on. They got all kinds of unmarked wires in them between the boards and you really have to watch taking them apart. Screwing that up happened to a friend of mine and the thing still doesn't work, just don't know which wire goes where. Finding a new US made one might be a bit hard, or pricey. The PC based ones are alright but if you want to "buy American" I doubt any of it is built here. Even if it is, it is probably only assembled here. Probably built by Apex in China or Korea, at least the board. The software might have been developed here. What you want has been in existence for a long time. Someone said stick with solid state because tubes drift all over the place, I concur. I don't like waiting for some of my older stuff to just warm up the caps, tubes add a whole new dimension to that. However tube ones might be more destructionproof. If you are about to take a probe from the output and start poking around tube amps you might want to consider that. It will drift, but tomorrow it will still drift. There are places in tube amps where if you want to stick that probe you'll need like a 100K resistor and a cap or it will be stuck at zero Hertz forever. The addition of those components of course will affect the readings as well, so you have to compensate. But that's my take on it. Also realize when you connect a PC soundcard to a tube amp, it better be well protected. And that is up to you. Resistor, diodes, whatever it takes. Just dumping -40 volts bias into them might destroy them. They need to be clamped. Bottom line, if you are going to work on old stuff, get old equipment. How old ? Depends on what is out there. If you go to eBay and look for wavetek, look at the ones that have the big knob on the front. And you might as well get a freq counter because those things are not that accurate when it comes to frequency. If you have a scope in good calibration though you can read it on that. And that's another thing, you might want an old scope. They used to go to 20 V/div which gave you 200 V/div with a 10X probe. Newer ones do not go that high and you would have to get a 100X probe. Using those in AC mode is a PITA because it takes so long to settle. |
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