pyotr filipivich wrote:


You know when your design is complete - not when there is nothing
left to add, but when there is mottling left to take away.

OTOH, rarely are products "completed" so much as the designers
run out of time to make any improvements or changes.


AKA: Muntzed


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:59:42 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:12:04 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

I deviced to take apart an orignal Nikon F 35mm camera today, to see
what's inside.

About 5000 parts is the answer, for a completely mechanical 35mm camera.


WHY???!!! did you smash a Nikon F body???

They are still worth in excess of $200 each and for us
collectors..they are freaking priceless!!!

Barbarians - they break what they don't understand.

True..sadly. "Couldnt take one apart and put it back together again
so it was obviously junk"

Funny that shops did it all the time on the rare event such things
needed adjustment or fixing.

Now try taking a Canon EOS apart without a complete high tech computer
repair department. Well..there always is..simply dropping it on the
pavement.

I was starting to wonder if the lad was simply having a go with us..or
is that...lame.


Witness the actions of the Democrat party towards the economy over
the last forty years.

Very well stated! Bravo!!


My Fuji Finepix S5200 digital camera needs a new memory battery. It
is tiny coin cell with welded tabs that is solder to one of the many
circuit boards. The manual only list the inventory number, and no
standard battery will fit in the small space.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Or the tongue-in-cheek motto applied to Mercedes-Benz: "Never use two

parts to do a job when you can get away with three." g



OTOH, when you have three parts, you can replace one of them. B-)



Nowadays, we have modules which are plug and play, do multiple

functions, and can't really be repaired. Not cost effectively,

compared to removing and replacing.

--

pyotr filipivich

"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I needed to change the thermostat on my Alfa Romeo. On every car I've owned previously, it cost a few dollars and replacement involved removing two or three bolts from a hose fitting on the block. On my Alfa, the thermo was integrated into the entire housing. It cost over a hundred, and took 45 minutes to change out!

On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:44:13 PM UTC+2, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 03:02:39 -0700 (PDT), robobass

wrote:





The question still stands. When do companies design stuff to be overly



complex. What's the real end goal?



It's often not intentional, just a mindset. I used to design motorized displays for a toy company. The bases would show the kinetic aspects of the toys. I would get a proposed design from their engineers, and come in the next day with revisions that would sometimes halve the cost with no loss of performance or reliability. I had no real motive to save them money, I just like simplicity and abhor waste. Most of my suggestions would be shot down just because they were perceived as cutting corners.



I wonder how much of that shooting down was covering for the "We

couldn't charge as much for it, so it would be less profitable" line

of thought.


I don't think this was the case. It seemed that the company was paying for the displays. The boss just liked to see lots of fasteners, necessary or not.

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:09:31 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

The Oly digitals have taken over most of the photo load of course..but
I simply have to get prints in my hands now and then...(Grin)

'had a whole -good- darkroom at one time. Simmon-Omega D2 enlarger with
the condensor color head, polycontrast filter set, the whole thing.

Gunner, stuff comes, and stuff goes. To be honest, a high-end pro-
digital can do anything and all things film could, except for
manipulation in the darkroom. And that was "once or nothing", at least
with the film, itself... like 'pushing' a roll, or cold-processing for
higher contrast. At least with digital, if you goof, you can try it
again. Screw up a roll of film, and you went out and shot it again.

Lloyd

Ive still got a pair of Omega D2s if you want them. With the 4x5 and
35mm condensers. And nearly all of what at one time was a very good
darkroom. Including a Bogan color enlarger for 35mm and 2 1/4 x 2 1/4
formats.

But they havent been used in years. No room, no time and you are
absolutely correct..digital has become the latest and greatest and it
really is good stuff. Easy to use, easy to change picture elements.
Instead of a bunch of different dodgers..the mouse cursor works much
better. And one CAN take a cd or DVD and have the photos printed to
paper. Perhaps not as nice a photo as with film..but good enough. The
only issue I have with digital photography..is photo size..ie how many
megabytes of storage space each takes up on ones computer.

All the hip slick and cool new digital cameras have at
minimum...10megapixels of storage per photo at high resolution..which
after awhile..bloats your hard drive badly. I still tend to shoot in
1024 x 768 for internet photos...because one can see most details on
the average computer screen unless one starts blowing them up and up
and up.

As Ive been a B&W buff..I do shoot a lot of "art:" stuff with the
cameras set for B&W or Sepia. Something possible to do with film..but
it was a royal pain in the ass if you only had one body on hand..and
had to swap a roll of color print film or Kodachrome (dating myself)
over to Tri-x or the new Tmax 400 after having shot half a roll and
needing to count the winds backwards..and occasionally getting screwed
up and doing a double exposure probably involving your best shot(s)
on the roll.

For "high resolution" work..I have an old Oly Camedia 5500 which will
do 5.1 mp photos and give a decent print up to about 13x17. Plus
decent enough video clips. The big problem with this camera is it
takes 512mb XD memory chips..they are impossible to find or expensive
as ****.... and the smallest XD chips today are 2gig and the camera
wont recognize the 2gig memory chip. Sigh.


On the other hand...Plus-x would give me a 35mm print about 36x48"
with little loss in resolution and the negative stores nicely in a
glassine envelope (of which I have literally thousands filled with
negatives....6 to an envelope) and the various 4x5 negatives..done in
Plus-x..will give me a print big enough to cover a barn..with little
degredation of image quality.

My regular day to day cameras are Oly 3000s and 4000s and cost me
about $15 each on Ebay..some of which came still in the boxes as NOS.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-C-40...-/331323381208

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-CAME...-/121440644846

Someday I might be in a position to pick up a digital SLR...but
frankly..I really dont "need" one as the above 2 cameras will go down
to 1.5" or so. The only issues..is not having a real wide wide angle
or a long telephoto.but for "snapshots" of a decent quality...they
work nicely. I seldom even take them off of Auto mode...they work very
well as is. In fact..I ran into a situation today..trying to take a
photo of the top of a sailboat mast some 32' up in the air for a
gentleman...the camera wouldnt focus properly..and when I put it into
manual focus..I couldnt remember HOW to manually focus. Chuckle. Had
to download the manual from the net and look it up

Oh..other problem..no external flash sync. So I cant hook up some of
the BIG strobes that I have collecting dust unless I use some sort of
slave..and with a shutter speed of 1/2000th...the slave actuator has
to be damned quick


And while I have at least 30 or more 35mm camera lenses of all powers
from 18mm to 1200 mm (and converters for just about any lens
base....for SLR digital cameras..they are still pricey little *******s
and out of my price range. (Wish some of them would fit digital SLRs.)


And if I manage to smash one (and I have) ...I simply pick up another
on Ebay for abut $21 shipping included.


But if anyone has a older surplus digital SLR with a normal range of
lenes they want to trade for something..Id be happy as hell to chat
about it.

Gunner





"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:50:54 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:35:05 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
. ..
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:52:19
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

The electronic and mechanical engineers at that and several other
places I've worked knew little of each others' discipline

Not just the EE & ME. I learned machining. When I was tasked
with making some fenders for a friends walker - of course the first
thing I though of was "get a block of aluminum, and mill it ...".

Sigh, the whole "if all you know is the hammer, everything is a
nail."


At my first job after the Army I told them I'd like to work my way up
to engineer, so they ran me through all the departments to learn the
intricacies of custom machine design and fabrication.

That was really cool of that company, Jim. I doubt it would happen at
99% of places nowadays.


I'd learned
mechanical drawing in jr high and Statics and the properties of metals

Statics or statistics? I had all the tech classes in early school,
too. Metal and wood shops, basic aviation, HS organic chemistry, mech
dwg.


in college, which were big helps. I didn't actually operate a
Bridgeport, TIG welder or press brake but I learned what they can and
can't do.

Reality sets in once you do get onto a machine. Theory and paperwork
only get you so far. Then it takes a bit of time converting those old
synapses from concept into manual dexterity. It can be shocking, but
it's fun, most of the time, right? All knowledge is good.


I did drill and tap a lot of holes and learn to bend sheet
metal accurately on a manual brake.

Great. I finally got back on my little HF (Harbor Freight, not high
freq) TIG yesterday and once again repaired the steel mount bracket
for Dad's old Craftsman circular saw. I hadn't penetrated well enough
the first time and it only lasted two months of very light work. This
time, I turned the amperage down and spent some time pooling the area
so I got a good, deep puddle. What I didn't burn through the first
time looks, um, fairly good now. (no picture requests, please
Anyway, the more metalworking, plasma cutting, and TIG welding I do,
the more I like it.

I wonder what kind of solar/battery setup I'll need to continue to use
that thing once the grid goes down... Time to start looking at 240v
inverters, I guess.

Gonna take a pretty fair amount of power. Think about a genny that can
be run from a stream or steam.

Or wood gas. You know..I do have a 300 amp Hobart with a 6 cylinder
Chrysler engine just collecting dust..right? Might make a great wood
gas welder.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:22:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:43 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

My old Asai Pentax is every bit as complex as a Nikon. Despite its 1980s
origins, it's as reliable today as the day it was built. Film... that's
another problem. Only one maker still out there...

LLoyd

Really? Down to one maker? Damn.

The real problem is finding some place where the film can be
developed, and prints made.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Walmart, Walgrens and a host of other places still do it. Though most
of Walmart sends it off to Daves in Kansas. But it comes back in about
3-4 days. Not like the old Prinz Camera where you could drop it off,
go for lunch and come back and pick em up...but..shrug

GUnner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:25:43 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Cydrome Leader fired this volley in news:lvq5ev
:

Stupid design.

Only stupid in retrospect. They did not anticipate the need when they
designed it.

It's still stupid design if nobody though ahead at all.

Define "through"

You're a mook, CL. Smashing an F-body camera just to complain about the
complexity of it is ridiculous. Even lacking the prism, it was valuable
to someone other than you.

A F is not rare or valuable, no matter what you tell yourself, they
churned out trillions of the things. Check prices on keh.com

They go for a minimum of $100 for a beater. Glad to see you are rich
and can afford to light a Franklin on fire to light up your smoke.

They were complex because of how much they could do -- mechanically,
only. Despite their complexity, they were marvelously reliable. Even
many that got dropped and/or banged around in service continued to work
just fine. I have a 1948 Meteor SP (1/2-frame 35) rotary focal plane
shutter camera that's a lot simpler than a Nikon-F, if you really want
'simple'.

My old Asai Pentax is every bit as complex as a Nikon. Despite its 1980s
origins, it's as reliable today as the day it was built. Film... that's
another problem. Only one maker still out there...

not true.

There are still a dozen or so film makers, including Kodak and Fuji.
But most of them are imports.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 04:17:22 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:59:51 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Mon, 22 Sep 2014 02:15:56 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 07:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:12:04 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:
I deviced to take apart an orignal Nikon F 35mm camera today, to see
what's inside.

About 5000 parts is the answer, for a completely mechanical 35mm camera.

WHY???!!! did you smash a Nikon F body???

They are still worth in excess of $200 each and for us
collectors..they are freaking priceless!!!

Barbarians - they break what they don't understand.

Tearing stuff apart is the greatest way to learn about how things work.

Disassembling is one thing. It is called "reverse engineering."
Breaking some thing because you don't understand how it works is not
"educational".

It's the fast way to see what's holding something together, and if you
don't need it put back, it's fine.

In fact, taking a hammer to saw to stuff is a good way to learn where the
strong and weak points are in something.


Its wanton vandalism of the worst sort. Try convincing yourself it is
something different...but it simply doesnt wash.

Ill bet you would love to smash open one of my Nikon S's.

I wouldn't mind.

Im sure you wouldnt.

Current value of the "black/black dial" one is $2500.00

That's about 33 times more than an F with no prism.

And I supplied you with a link to prisms on Ebay for $10

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfs2bl.htm

Rare as hell

Complicated inside too!

Rangefinder mechanisms can be super complex, although it's not necessary
at all. Does the S have different sight lines and parallax correction?

Yes. Though the acessory finder..which is damned rare..would do all
that plus.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:35:05 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I'd learned
mechanical drawing in jr high and Statics and the properties of
metals

Statics or statistics? I had all the tech classes in early school,
too. Metal and wood shops, basic aviation, HS organic chemistry,
mech
dwg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statics

I haven't used it enough to remember how to calculate moments of
inertia so I use the AISI Manual of Steel Construction and these for
beam and column loading.
http://books.google.com/books/about/...yvs9 AAAAYAAJ
http://www.amazon.com/Simplified-Des.../dp/0471666297

I studied other fields to learn enough to recognize impending problems
and credibly convince the project engineer that he needed to consult
an expert to solve them. I learned machining so I wouldn't make dumb,
expensive design errors.

Companies that design with moving parts, like Segway, have mechanical
engineers, but purely electronic companies may be lost when the
occasional mechanical design issue arises.
-jsw

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:06:55 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Tim Wescott fired this volley in
m:

but a dirt-simple solution that actually works often evades me.

Fortunately, there are plenty of Really Complex problems out there just
crying out to be solved, and that I can do.


Dirt-simple solutions are the epitomy of engineering. It's hard to get
to that point.

I just spent two years of my life designing (and building) a prototype
machine for an explosives manufacturer. Some of the most difficult
aspects of its operation were solve by those dirt-simple mechanisms
invented in the 1920s and 1930s. Some others required complex mechanisms
I'm not totally pleased with, but must endure, because there seemed no
other way to accomplish them.

To be sure, it is a complex machine, full of potential failure points.
Mitigating them required "over-engineering" to make those points robust
enough to stand the duty. When complex overcomes simple, that's the
cost.

I'm not sure any complex machine (like a mechanical camera with 47
functions!) can be made simply.

Lloyd

That's what I used to tell the young guys in R&D. Don't invent
anything you don't have to.

Pete Keillor

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:26:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college, as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.
Surprising how many appear to have extra-sensory perceptionin that
regard. I just need to get close to them, intent on finding what is
wrong, and having (only to misbehave again when I leave, in many
cases)

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:35:08 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:

The trouble with Chevy is they would order the tooling and test
station for that carb well in advance and then keep calling with "Oh,
by the way..." changes as they refined it.

We larded the test station for their 1970's analog ABS controller with
jumpers so they could change the test parameters themselves. While I
enjoyed flying first-class I didn't at all like Flint MI. For some
reason there weren't many passengers on those flights.

GM's project engineer was a Ph.D. from India with absolutely no
practical hands-on experience. He wanted the ramp-down curve of wheel
sensor speed accurate to 8 decimal places because that's what his
calculator gave him. No one had taught him that resistors have
tolerances.


Today, .01% are easy to get.
Lazer trimmed can be even closer.

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

There are still a dozen or so film makers, including Kodak and Fuji.
But most of them are imports.


Sorry... I meant color transparency film. There are still quite a number
of color print film and monochrome film makers, partly because not all
radiology modalities are digital, yet.

LLoyd

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:59:49 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Lots of these folks are either getting out of the business or dying
from old age, so what comes next, when all of the true knowledge is
gone? How far away are we from the coming global Idiocracy?

While I was analyzing the electrical problem in my 1991 truck someone
told me about a shop that specializes in automotive engine
electronics, so I stopped in to talk to them. The owner told me that I
had become the local expert on the EEC-IV system by default, since
every mechanic who had worked on it was gone. The Ford dealers told me
nearly the same thing.

All I really knew was how the sensors work, from chemistry and having
worked on GM's test stations for them in the 70's, the basics of spark
ignition and how to use a scope. The Mass Air Flow sensor is a
simplified version of the bridge detector in a chemist's Gas
Chromatograph.

I saw the same hot-wire principle used on a Bosch injector pump tester
we built to measure the uniformity of the nozzle spray pattern. I
didn't actually work on that machine and can't give Iggy useful
details such as the full capacity of the row of graduated glass tubes
that measured each cylinder's flow volume. A 10 HP variable speed DC
motor drove the pump being tested.

In Germany I followed the dystopian Sudden Death comic series,
European equivalents to R. Crumb. One of their visions was that the
"sacred electronics" would become the arcane knowledge of old guys.

-jsw

On 9/21/2014 10:12 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

I deviced to take apart an orignal Nikon F 35mm camera today, to see
what's inside.

About 5000 parts is the answer, for a completely mechanical 35mm camera.


WHY???!!! did you smash a Nikon F body???

They are still worth in excess of $200 each and for us
collectors..they are freaking priceless!!!


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke



I've got a boatload of Canon 35mm if interested.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:35:05
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

At my first job after the Army I told them I'd like to work my way
up
to engineer, so they ran me through all the departments to learn the
intricacies of custom machine design and fabrication. I'd learned
mechanical drawing in jr high and Statics and the properties of
metals
in college, which were big helps. I didn't actually operate a
Bridgeport, TIG welder or press brake but I learned what they can
and
can't do. I did drill and tap a lot of holes and learn to bend sheet
metal accurately on a manual brake.

Learned enough to know when they were attempting to blow smoke ..
--
pyotr filipivich

That wasn't one of the problems. The company was heavy on practice if
light on theory, like most of the auto execs we dealt with. By the
time I'd made Project Engineer and was writing responses to RFQs for
capital equipment I knew what we could and couldn't do.

Then the field service engineer decided he'd had enough, and being the
only single guy not let go in the last RIF I was the obvious choice to
replace him.

I soon found out why he had quit, on-scene middleman in a corporate
dispute is a task for a glib lawyer, not me. GM "was not amused" when
our testers revealed unexpected faults. At least when I did field
service repair in the Army I had the considerable protection of a
Sergeant's E-5 rank and we all worked for the same organization.

-jsw

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:27:52 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Larry Jaques on Mon, 22 Sep 2014
19:50:54 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

I did drill and tap a lot of holes and learn to bend sheet
metal accurately on a manual brake.

Great. I finally got back on my little HF (Harbor Freight, not high
freq) TIG yesterday and once again repaired the steel mount bracket
for Dad's old Craftsman circular saw. I hadn't penetrated well enough
the first time and it only lasted two months of very light work. This
time, I turned the amperage down and spent some time pooling the area
so I got a good, deep puddle. What I didn't burn through the first
time looks, um, fairly good now. (no picture requests, please
Anyway, the more metalworking, plasma cutting, and TIG welding I do,
the more I like it.

I wonder what kind of solar/battery setup I'll need to continue to use
that thing once the grid goes down... Time to start looking at 240v
inverters, I guess.

The is rec.crafts.metalworking - you should be planning on the
steam powered generator setup! From Scratch! Refine your own
scratch, too!

Bbbut, I was talking about Tiggin', wholely on topic on a metalworking
group. Wouldja like to hear more about how I stuck the electrode and
welded with it still contaminated? I purely do wish it had a HF start
mode, but it's a scratcher. The copper-plated filler rod helps
immensely, though.

Besides being tres cool, for something so wildly hot, steam is
totallyunsustainableandwilldrownpolarbearsinmelted icejustaskAlgoreyup.

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 04:44:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:50:54 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:35:05 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:52:19
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

The electronic and mechanical engineers at that and several other
places I've worked knew little of each others' discipline

Not just the EE & ME. I learned machining. When I was tasked
with making some fenders for a friends walker - of course the first
thing I though of was "get a block of aluminum, and mill it ...".

Sigh, the whole "if all you know is the hammer, everything is a
nail."


At my first job after the Army I told them I'd like to work my way up
to engineer, so they ran me through all the departments to learn the
intricacies of custom machine design and fabrication.

That was really cool of that company, Jim. I doubt it would happen at
99% of places nowadays.


I'd learned
mechanical drawing in jr high and Statics and the properties of metals

Statics or statistics? I had all the tech classes in early school,
too. Metal and wood shops, basic aviation, HS organic chemistry, mech
dwg.


in college, which were big helps. I didn't actually operate a
Bridgeport, TIG welder or press brake but I learned what they can and
can't do.

Reality sets in once you do get onto a machine. Theory and paperwork
only get you so far. Then it takes a bit of time converting those old
synapses from concept into manual dexterity. It can be shocking, but
it's fun, most of the time, right? All knowledge is good.


I did drill and tap a lot of holes and learn to bend sheet
metal accurately on a manual brake.

Great. I finally got back on my little HF (Harbor Freight, not high
freq) TIG yesterday and once again repaired the steel mount bracket
for Dad's old Craftsman circular saw. I hadn't penetrated well enough
the first time and it only lasted two months of very light work. This
time, I turned the amperage down and spent some time pooling the area
so I got a good, deep puddle. What I didn't burn through the first
time looks, um, fairly good now. (no picture requests, please
Anyway, the more metalworking, plasma cutting, and TIG welding I do,
the more I like it.

I wonder what kind of solar/battery setup I'll need to continue to use
that thing once the grid goes down... Time to start looking at 240v
inverters, I guess.

Gonna take a pretty fair amount of power. Think about a genny that can
be run from a stream or steam.

I had it set all the way down on 1 to weld a 3/32" bracket. That
seems to be my^C^Cone weak point. Determining the welder power
setting. I'm now using much less power to weld and it's getting easier
each time. I really should practice more. sigh


Or wood gas. You know..I do have a 300 amp Hobart with a 6 cylinder
Chrysler engine just collecting dust..right? Might make a great wood
gas welder.

How do you get the 6 logs down into the cylinders to burn, mon?

Making wood gas sounds like a really toxic, smelly, and very messy
proposition.

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:01:54 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:35:05 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I'd learned
mechanical drawing in jr high and Statics and the properties of
metals

Statics or statistics? I had all the tech classes in early school,
too. Metal and wood shops, basic aviation, HS organic chemistry,
mech
dwg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statics

I sit corrected. (too lazy to stand)


I haven't used it enough to remember how to calculate moments of
inertia so I use the AISI Manual of Steel Construction and these for
beam and column loading.
http://books.google.com/books/about/...yvs9 AAAAYAAJ
http://www.amazon.com/Simplified-Des.../dp/0471666297

They probably have nice, easy, quick-reference charts in them, taking
the sting out of the process.


I studied other fields to learn enough to recognize impending problems
and credibly convince the project engineer that he needed to consult
an expert to solve them. I learned machining so I wouldn't make dumb,
expensive design errors.

Smart.


Companies that design with moving parts, like Segway, have mechanical
engineers, but purely electronic companies may be lost when the
occasional mechanical design issue arises.

May? g

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only
made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would
have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My
parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college,
as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of
them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I
would
scrap it for parts.

Machines with intermittent faults behave perfectly when I come near
them.

-jsw

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Cydrome Leader wrote:
[grumble...]


Tektronix figured it out in the '50s & '60s. Slide an item out,
lift
and remove for service. Or lock the rails and rotate the chassis to
service it in place.

It was a real joy to be able to connect to a piece of equipment
from
the front of a rack, then slide it into place.

So did HP. My early-70's 8555A spectrum analyzer is a masterpiece of
both electronic and mechanical design. It even has a Magic Crystal for
a heart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YIG_sphere

Then they lost their way on the scopes with keypads and a single
control dial that took two minutes to change any setting. I have one
because it sold cheap but much preferred their Infinium with separate
knobs for each function.
-jsw

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Jim Wilkins wrote:

The trouble with Chevy is they would order the tooling and test
station for that carb well in advance and then keep calling with
"Oh,
by the way..." changes as they refined it.

We larded the test station for their 1970's analog ABS controller
with
jumpers so they could change the test parameters themselves. While
I
enjoyed flying first-class I didn't at all like Flint MI. For some
reason there weren't many passengers on those flights.

GM's project engineer was a Ph.D. from India with absolutely no
practical hands-on experience. He wanted the ramp-down curve of
wheel
sensor speed accurate to 8 decimal places because that's what his
calculator gave him. No one had taught him that resistors have
tolerances.


Today, .01% are easy to get.

They were back then too. A company half an hour away would grind the
Ruthenium oxide blanks to whatever precision we could afford. IIRC the
non-standard ones for op-amp production line testers cost about $5
apiece.

Another company on the way to work made me a batch of custom
thick-film resistors to match a laser diode to the 50 Ohm drive line
at up to 6 GHz. I don't remember how much the Air Force paid for them.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:26:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college, as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.

What I meant was that they don't talk back...much.

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:19:07 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:26:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college, as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.
Surprising how many appear to have extra-sensory perceptionin that
regard. I just need to get close to them, intent on finding what is
wrong, and having (only to misbehave again when I leave, in many
cases)

My favorite techie quote:

Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 07:09:40 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:06:55 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Tim Wescott fired this volley in
om:

but a dirt-simple solution that actually works often evades me.

Fortunately, there are plenty of Really Complex problems out there just
crying out to be solved, and that I can do.


Dirt-simple solutions are the epitomy of engineering. It's hard to get
to that point.

I just spent two years of my life designing (and building) a prototype
machine for an explosives manufacturer. Some of the most difficult
aspects of its operation were solve by those dirt-simple mechanisms
invented in the 1920s and 1930s. Some others required complex mechanisms
I'm not totally pleased with, but must endure, because there seemed no
other way to accomplish them.

To be sure, it is a complex machine, full of potential failure points.
Mitigating them required "over-engineering" to make those points robust
enough to stand the duty. When complex overcomes simple, that's the
cost.

I'm not sure any complex machine (like a mechanical camera with 47
functions!) can be made simply.

Lloyd

That's what I used to tell the young guys in R&D. Don't invent
anything you don't have to.

Bbbut, why, maam, don't you want your calculator to shave your face
while you do the budget?

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:01:10 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:59:49 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Lots of these folks are either getting out of the business or dying
from old age, so what comes next, when all of the true knowledge is
gone? How far away are we from the coming global Idiocracy?

While I was analyzing the electrical problem in my 1991 truck someone
told me about a shop that specializes in automotive engine
electronics, so I stopped in to talk to them. The owner told me that I
had become the local expert on the EEC-IV system by default, since
every mechanic who had worked on it was gone. The Ford dealers told me
nearly the same thing.

Cool. Lots of bowing and scraping, eh?


All I really knew was how the sensors work, from chemistry and having
worked on GM's test stations for them in the 70's, the basics of spark
ignition and how to use a scope. The Mass Air Flow sensor is a
simplified version of the bridge detector in a chemist's Gas
Chromatograph.

I saw the same hot-wire principle used on a Bosch injector pump tester
we built to measure the uniformity of the nozzle spray pattern. I
didn't actually work on that machine and can't give Iggy useful
details such as the full capacity of the row of graduated glass tubes
that measured each cylinder's flow volume. A 10 HP variable speed DC
motor drove the pump being tested.

10 horse? That must have been some pump!


In Germany I followed the dystopian Sudden Death comic series,
European equivalents to R. Crumb. One of their visions was that the
"sacred electronics" would become the arcane knowledge of old guys.

Prophetic!

Good old R. Crumb. Keep on Truckin'!

--
One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love.
-- Sophocles

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:39:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...

Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only
made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would
have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My
parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college,
as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of
them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I
would
scrap it for parts.

Machines with intermittent faults behave perfectly when I come near
them.

But only when we're there troubleshooting them, right? BTDT.


--
Give me the luxuries of life.
I can live without the necessities.
--anon

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:09:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:39:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news:a8udndHx09syvbzJnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@earthlink. com...

Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only
made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would
have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My
parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college,
as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of
them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I
would
scrap it for parts.

Machines with intermittent faults behave perfectly when I come near
them.

But only when we're there troubleshooting them, right? BTDT.
Generally, the last week I own a car, after I've decided to get rid
of it, the car runs better thanr years - - -

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:01:10 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I saw the same hot-wire principle used on a Bosch injector pump
tester
we built to measure the uniformity of the nozzle spray pattern. I
didn't actually work on that machine and can't give Iggy useful
details such as the full capacity of the row of graduated glass
tubes
that measured each cylinder's flow volume. A 10 HP variable speed DC
motor drove the pump being tested.

10 horse? That must have been some pump!

The motor was sized for low-speed torque.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:09:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:39:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news:a8udndHx09syvbzJnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@earthlink .com...

Larry Jaques wrote:



machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of
them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave
I
would
scrap it for parts.

Machines with intermittent faults behave perfectly when I come near
them.

But only when we're there troubleshooting them, right? BTDT.
Generally, the last week I own a car, after I've decided to get rid
of it, the car runs better thanr years - - -

Every few years I drive to the dealership and pretend to be looking to
trade, mainly so I know what I want if I wreck mine, but it also keeps
them humble and obedient.
-jsw

wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.

Surprising how many appear to have extra-sensory perceptionin that
regard. I just need to get close to them, intent on finding what is
wrong, and having (only to misbehave again when I leave, in many
cases)


I had an entire rack of C-band sat equipment start flashing failure
alarms. The idiot manager had just walked into the room seconds before
it started. I was in the next room when I lost video on the channel I
was checking. He was screaming, Get in here! as I came around the
corner. I looked at the dozens of alarm lights and said, I don't have
time for this crap. I gently rapped the rack with my knuckles, and
everything returned to normal. His jaw dropped. Is that how you fix
this stuff? I told him, No. I've told you that the equipment doesn't
like you, now stay out of the head end.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:39:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...

Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only
made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would
have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My
parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college,
as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of
them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I
would
scrap it for parts.

Machines with intermittent faults behave perfectly when I come near
them.

But only when we're there troubleshooting them, right? BTDT.


You never did TV repair, did you? You et six blocks from the service
location when the dispatcher calls and tells you it was canceled because
it started working.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:26:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college, as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.

What I meant was that they don't talk back...much.


You've lead a very sheltered life.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:35:08 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:

The trouble with Chevy is they would order the tooling and test
station for that carb well in advance and then keep calling with "Oh,
by the way..." changes as they refined it.

We larded the test station for their 1970's analog ABS controller with
jumpers so they could change the test parameters themselves. While I
enjoyed flying first-class I didn't at all like Flint MI. For some
reason there weren't many passengers on those flights.

GM's project engineer was a Ph.D. from India with absolutely no
practical hands-on experience. He wanted the ramp-down curve of wheel
sensor speed accurate to 8 decimal places because that's what his
calculator gave him. No one had taught him that resistors have
tolerances.


Today, .01% are easy to get.
LaSer trimmed can be even closer.

You can buy 'as marked' but they are only that value at a specific
temperature and they aren't cheap. Considering that the first standard
was 50%, .01% is a 5000% improvement. I've bought reels of .o1% on Ebay
for well under one cent per part.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Cydrome Leader wrote:
[grumble...]


Tektronix figured it out in the '50s & '60s. Slide an item out,
lift
and remove for service. Or lock the rails and rotate the chassis to
service it in place.

It was a real joy to be able to connect to a piece of equipment
from
the front of a rack, then slide it into place.

So did HP. My early-70's 8555A spectrum analyzer is a masterpiece of
both electronic and mechanical design. It even has a Magic Crystal for
a heart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YIG_sphere

Then they lost their way on the scopes with keypads and a single
control dial that took two minutes to change any setting. I have one
because it sold cheap but much preferred their Infinium with separate
knobs for each function.


I like my Tek 2465A scopes. The newer HO spectrum analyzers could
print the screen, but the setup was six menus deep and it only worked
with a couple HP printers. Engineers would come to the production floor
to ask us to set one up for them.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 07:27:12 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Gonna take a pretty fair amount of power. Think about a genny that can
be run from a stream or steam.

I had it set all the way down on 1 to weld a 3/32" bracket. That
seems to be my^C^Cone weak point. Determining the welder power
setting. I'm now using much less power to weld and it's getting easier
each time. I really should practice more. sigh


Or wood gas. You know..I do have a 300 amp Hobart with a 6 cylinder
Chrysler engine just collecting dust..right? Might make a great wood
gas welder.

How do you get the 6 logs down into the cylinders to burn, mon?

Making wood gas sounds like a really toxic, smelly, and very messy
proposition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._Emergency.pdf

http://www.motherearthnews.com/green...z10fmzraw.aspx

http://thekneeslider.com/after-the-a...e-on-wood-gas/

etc etc


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:42:21 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 9/21/2014 10:12 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:32:43 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

I deviced to take apart an orignal Nikon F 35mm camera today, to see
what's inside.

About 5000 parts is the answer, for a completely mechanical 35mm camera.


WHY???!!! did you smash a Nikon F body???

They are still worth in excess of $200 each and for us
collectors..they are freaking priceless!!!


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke



I've got a boatload of Canon 35mm if interested.

Perk!!

ah..what do you have?

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Larry Jaques on Tue, 23 Sep 2014
07:19:34 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:27:52 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Larry Jaques on Mon, 22 Sep 2014
19:50:54 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

I did drill and tap a lot of holes and learn to bend sheet
metal accurately on a manual brake.

Great. I finally got back on my little HF (Harbor Freight, not high
freq) TIG yesterday and once again repaired the steel mount bracket
for Dad's old Craftsman circular saw. I hadn't penetrated well enough
the first time and it only lasted two months of very light work. This
time, I turned the amperage down and spent some time pooling the area
so I got a good, deep puddle. What I didn't burn through the first
time looks, um, fairly good now. (no picture requests, please
Anyway, the more metalworking, plasma cutting, and TIG welding I do,
the more I like it.

I wonder what kind of solar/battery setup I'll need to continue to use
that thing once the grid goes down... Time to start looking at 240v
inverters, I guess.

The is rec.crafts.metalworking - you should be planning on the
steam powered generator setup! From Scratch! Refine your own
scratch, too!

Bbbut, I was talking about Tiggin', wholely on topic on a metalworking
group. Wouldja like to hear more about how I stuck the electrode and
welded with it still contaminated?

Ummm, no. Sorry, but I don't know enough about TIG welding to be
able to laugh at the right places. B-)

I purely do wish it had a HF start
mode, but it's a scratcher. The copper-plated filler rod helps
immensely, though.

Besides being tres cool, for something so wildly hot, steam is
totallyunsustainableandwilldrownpolarbearsinmelte dicejustaskAlgoreyup.

Use a solar power to heat the steam. Even better - cause there is
no coal involved.

Or you could make your own nuclear power plant. No carbon
emissions at all!
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

"Michael A. Terrell" on Tue, 23 Sep 2014
13:25:54 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:26:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

That's cool. I envy your vast knowledge/experience base. (I only made
it to half vast.) Had I wanted to go to college, I likely would have
taken both electrical and mechanical engineering courses. My parents
offered to pay the price. But I was too fed up with people, being a
hermit by nature. I chose auto mechanic tech school over college, as
machines don't talk back.


Sure they do. You can even carry on conversations with some of them.
I told more than one piece of equipment that if it didn't behave I would
scrap it for parts.

What I meant was that they don't talk back...much.


You've lead a very sheltered life.

It is okay to talk to the aircraft.
It is okay for them to talk back.
But, do not start arguing with them - that is a bad sign.

"true Story" - Capt Schiebe gets on his tanker, and checks the log
"repaired bullet damage". Asks what was the meaning of this - the are
in Eastern Washington. Well, seems that one of the ramp rats [pulling
guard duty] got into an argument with one of the planes and it said
something and he shoot. "But it wasn't our aircraft- we were just an
innocent bystanders!"
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."