I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

stryped fired this volley in
:

An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last
one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.

If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to
hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and
a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one
around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip
on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end.

I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.

Lloyd

"stryped" wrote in message
...

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T
bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal
with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper
areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

Try it on small pieces.

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the
difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric
heat. It's 3F outside.

On 1/3/2014 9:20 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
....
If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to
hammer-form it at all? ...

For compound curves.

Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

For compound curves.

It's a bucket, Bob.

Lloyd

stryped wrote:
I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I
have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do
it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are
they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to
play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much
in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before
this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T
bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal
with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper
areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

Take a look at these vids for some ideas

http://www.youtube.com/user/covellron/videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/younggunsfab/videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/lazzemetalshaping/videos


Wheeling isn't hard to learn, it takes a bit of practice to understand
just how the metal reacts. The wheel wasn't used in hobby type shops but
the pro shops had them, and planishing hammers in use for a long time.

You usually make a buck regardless of the forming methods used. That way
you have a way to test all the panels. I wouldn't use ANY heat to form
sheet metal, causes a LOT of problems that can be terrible to deal with.

--
Steve W.

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
...
I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T
bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal
with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper
areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

Try it on small pieces.

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the
difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric
heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or
gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a
softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.

--
Steve W.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

For compound curves.

It's a bucket, Bob.

Lloyd

http://www.pbase.com/orangecones/tbuckets

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
the difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
electric heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
--
Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
stryped fired this volley in

:



An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last

one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.



If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to

hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and

a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one

around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip

on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end.



I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.



Lloyd

Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience.

There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some.

If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel?

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 05:54:16 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a
planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a
good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be
a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter
would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and
build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 08:20:21 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

stryped fired this volley in
:

An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last
one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.

If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to
hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and
a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one
around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip
on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end.

I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.

Lloyd
I think Loyd ic confusing a "T" bucket with a "tea" bucket (or
Billie)

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
the difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
electric heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
--
Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.

On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 05:54:16 -0800 (PST), stryped

wrote:



I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.



To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a

planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a

good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be

a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter

would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and

build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body

This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch.

fired this volley in
:

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)


Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.

Lloyd

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:

This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used
them except for the torch.

So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed
bunny slippers.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

fired this volley in
:

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)


Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.


Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:

This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used
them except for the torch.

So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed
bunny slippers.


With tin foil ears!


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

In article ,
says...

I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.



http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143

"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats
hands-on instruction."


http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article ,





I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.







http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143



"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats

hands-on instruction."





http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!

In article ,
says...

I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.


How does your book, or any of the "advice" you have been given so far in
this "metalworking" group, compare to this one hour free video that
shows you how to make a fender start to finish?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeXt...=youtube_gdata

stryped wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,
plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body
in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video
on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part
of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is
installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?


Thanks!

Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,
reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is
easy if you build it as a knockdown.

The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to
smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you
smooth out the panels.
Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the
panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!

Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new
skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot
bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will
basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see
if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you
the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of
the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.

--
Steve W.

On 1/3/2014 11:08 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

For compound curves.

It's a bucket, Bob.

Lloyd

http://www.pbase.com/orangecones/tbuckets




I didn't exam every picture closely, but the ones that I did had
compound curves. It seems that a cowling would pretty much have to be
compound. Bob

On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2



I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,

plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/



So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body

in sections, then weld together?



I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video

on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part

of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is

installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?





Thanks!



Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,

reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is

easy if you build it as a knockdown.



The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to

smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you

smooth out the panels.

Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the

panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!



Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new

skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot

bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will

basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see

if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you

the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of

the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.



--

Steve W.

Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.

I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).

I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs.

On 1/3/2014 5:28 PM, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2



I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,

plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/



So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body

in sections, then weld together?



I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video

on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part

of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is

installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?





Thanks!



Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,

reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is

easy if you build it as a knockdown.



The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to

smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you

smooth out the panels.

Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the

panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!



Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new

skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot

bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will

basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see

if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you

the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of

the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.



--

Steve W.

Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.

I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).

I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs.





Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass...

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article ,





I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.







http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143



"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats

hands-on instruction."





http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!
Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
onto wherever it needs to be formed. So you would need a hardwood form
that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300
dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

wrote in message
...

....Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on
the
wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the
ball....
Eric

And they say -I- do strange Macgyver things...

Have a really good story ready in case you get a visitor, so they
don't wonder what you might do with an armor-plated bowling ball.

In article ,
says...

On 1/3/2014 5:28 PM, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2



I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,

plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/



So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body

in sections, then weld together?



I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video

on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part

of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is

installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?





Thanks!



Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,

reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is

easy if you build it as a knockdown.



The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to

smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you

smooth out the panels.


"Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass..."

Deciding what is appropriate is a matter of taste.

Many people have very poor taste.

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 08:30:49 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
stryped fired this volley in

:



An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last

one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.



If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to

hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and

a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one

around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip

on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end.



I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.



Lloyd

Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience.

There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some.

If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel?
You bend it cold. The wheel causes the metal to "cold flow" -
thinning it and stretching it, causing the metal to bend.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 13:54:46 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

fired this volley in
:

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)


Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.


Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.
What fun would THAT be????

In article ,
says...

On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2



I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,

plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/



So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body

in sections, then weld together?



I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video

on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part

of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is

installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?





Thanks!



Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,

reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is

easy if you build it as a knockdown.



The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to

smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you

smooth out the panels.


"I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81
year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars
and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic
60's mustangs."

It's not about money. It's about total dedication. Right now you don't
show signs of having the needed dedication.

Before you can learn to use an English wheel you have to be able to make
parts by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article ,





I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.







http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143



"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats

hands-on instruction."





http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!
With a shot bag, some slappers, and a set of body hammers the parts
COULD be hammer formed. A good friend of mine has part of an old
stump that he uses for forming sheet metal along with the former
tools. He also has a big english wheel, a planishing hammer, a roll
former, a beader, a couple of shrinkers and stretchers, as well as
break, shears, and tig unit.

Made the nose bowl for my plane using those tools (using aluminum, not
steel)
16 Ga is a good starting thickness if you are going to do any
extensive stretching/forming. 18ga is easier to work, but it gets too
thin when you stretch it to make a compound curve, and shrinking it
enough to form the curve is not practical.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:10:03 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

stryped wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,
plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body
in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video
on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part
of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is
installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?


Thanks!

Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,
reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is
easy if you build it as a knockdown.

The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to
smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you
smooth out the panels.
Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the
panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!

Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new
skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot
bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will
basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see
if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you
the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of
the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.
Including the english wheel and the planishing hammer.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:57:29 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/3/2014 5:28 PM, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2



I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,

plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/



So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body

in sections, then weld together?



I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video

on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part

of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is

installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?





Thanks!



Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,

reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is

easy if you build it as a knockdown.



The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to

smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you

smooth out the panels.

Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the

panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!



Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new

skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot

bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will

basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see

if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you

the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of

the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.



--

Steve W.

Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.

I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).

I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs.





Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass...


"wood is good, Steel is real, Glass is Class - so wrap your ass in
fiberglass"

Anybody can build a glass T-Buicket. It takes a craftsman and a lot of
patience to build one in steel. (or a lot of money)

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article ,





I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.







http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143



"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats

hands-on instruction."





http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!
Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
onto wherever it needs to be formed.

Hammering onto the form doesn't work . You hammer the metal on forming
blocks, a slap bag, or whatever else does the job and then FIT it to
the buck, or mold.

So you would need a hardwood form
that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300
dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
Eric


You hammer form first, to get the rough shape started, then you
plannish and wheel to smooth the part and finish the shape. I'll have
to post the pictures of the nose bowl on my website. 2 peice nose bowk
for Pegazair 100, formed out of 16ga aluminum flashing. Same
principal with steel, but a LOT more work!!!!!!!
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 13:54:46 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

fired this volley in
:

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)


Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.


Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.

What fun would THAT be????


The fun of doing a top quality restoration. Felix has the nicest
machine shop I was ever in. For instance, he has a 20 ton press to make
the fenders, and the original machines to roll the edge over the heavy
steel wire to give the exact dimension as the original Ford part. He
was a tool and die maker for Aeronca, in Middletown when they were
involved with making parts for NASA. Do you remember the honeycomb steel
used for the original heat shields? They were made at that plant. Why
spend weeks making a half assed replacement, and buying tools you don't
know how to use, when quality parts are available? He was the first
shop licensed by Ford to put their name on his reproductions.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

stryped wrote:


Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I
saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.

I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a
buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal
came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).

I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my
81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves
cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore
classic 60's mustangs.

Define small town and give me a general location. I live in the middle
of nowhere myself.

--
Steve W.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:36:55 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 13:54:46 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

fired this volley in
:

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)


Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.


Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.

What fun would THAT be????


The fun of doing a top quality restoration. Felix has the nicest
machine shop I was ever in. For instance, he has a 20 ton press to make
the fenders, and the original machines to roll the edge over the heavy
steel wire to give the exact dimension as the original Ford part. He
was a tool and die maker for Aeronca, in Middletown when they were
involved with making parts for NASA. Do you remember the honeycomb steel
used for the original heat shields? They were made at that plant. Why
spend weeks making a half assed replacement, and buying tools you don't
know how to use, when quality parts are available? He was the first
shop licensed by Ford to put their name on his reproductions.
I totally understand, but this kid wants to build a street rod -
likely a "rat" rod - and he wants to MAKE the body. That's the fun. I
totally understand restoration - and using factory accurate parts.
I've done a few restorations in my life - and had to MAKE many of the
parts - and remake others.
I've owned 28 Chev, 35 Chev, 37 Teraplane, 49 VW, 53 Dodge Coronet,
'57 Fargo Custom Express (pickup) 1961 Morris Mini, and a few newer
vehicles that needed a lot of work. Also helped restore 1953 MG TD and
197? Fiat 600, as well as 1969 VW Westphalia - and helped a friend
with his 31 Model A restoration and 1959 Corvette. Also been involved
with the restoration of several Mopar muscle cars (mostly with the
mechanicals and electrics)
Also scratch building an airplane - tube & fabric with aluminum flight
surfaces

We made the entire firewall and scuttle on the TD.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
the difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
electric heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
--
Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.

2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF?
and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively
negating any benefit?

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 13:30:08 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:

This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used
them except for the torch.

So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed
bunny slippers.

....with which he can swiftly kick strypedtrolls in the arse.


sigh When will youse guys learn?

P.S: The nick "C-less" came about because there is no "c" in my name.

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu