Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.


Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu
  #42   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:53:04 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
the difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
electric heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
--
Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.


2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF?
and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively
negating any benefit?

They clamp the voltage - all lines to ground. If the headlights are
relayed and cannot be connected just put a load across the battery
terminals in place of the battery - not a dead short but a good "load"
  #43   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.


Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.
The planisher works. Not great but decent.
  #45   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:44:15 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:53:04 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
the difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
electric heat. It's 3F outside.



MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
--
Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.


2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF?
and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively
negating any benefit?

They clamp the voltage - all lines to ground. If the headlights are
relayed and cannot be connected just put a load across the battery
terminals in place of the battery - not a dead short but a good "load"


I wonder if the little tigger would light up the spare 9004 in my tool
box...or do I need to worry? The Harbor Freight tigger doesn't have a
HF section. It's a scratch-to-start. That's why copper coated rod is
a must for me.

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu


  #46   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,025
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800,
wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.


Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.


Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
it better? Gusseting?


The planisher works. Not great but decent.


MAN, those things are noisy!

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu
  #47   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 06:24:21 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800,
wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.

Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.


Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
it better? Gusseting?


Yes, it is a bit flexible - Use the roller parts and build a new
frame. The rollers and bearings are pretty well worth the asking
price.

The planisher works. Not great but decent.


MAN, those things are noisy!


The one I use is mechanical, not pneumatic - not nearly as noisy -
better control.

  #48   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800,
wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.

Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.
The planisher works. Not great but decent.


The wheel works MUCH better if you stiffen the frame. The planisher has
a similar problem. The instructions call for the frame to be filled with
sand to dampen the vibrations. IF you plan on keeping it weld some
bracing on the arms and fill the frame with concrete mortar mix instead
of sand. (it packs denser)

--
Steve W.
  #49   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800,
wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they a
http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.


Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
it better? Gusseting?


Yep, there are diagrams online showing what and where to add steel.



The planisher works. Not great but decent.


MAN, those things are noisy!


Fill the frame with steel and replace the hammer with a better one and
the noise level drops a bunch.


--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu



--
Steve W.
  #50   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?


  #51   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?

You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the
body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the
body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam,
and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth. Less work overall
just to make it out of steel (or aluminum). If your "dummy" pattern is
smooth, and your mould is smooth, your body will be relatively smooth
and require a LOT less sanding..

Or just buy a fiberglass bucket - they are available in varying
quality, at a wide range of prices, from numerous suppliers (the
simplest way)
  #54   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 2014-01-03, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
stryped fired this volley in

:



An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last

one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.


I had to look up what a T-Bucket was on the web. It is not a
container for liquids. :-)

[ ... ]

I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.



Lloyd


Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing
are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not
sure if I would have the same experience.


And videos can be edited to make things take a lot less time
than they do in real life.

There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are
some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that
have some.


If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet
metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel?


Well ... heat *is* used (with quenching) on sheet metal, to
shrink areas to remove dents. Sort of the opposite of what an English
Wheel does.

The English Wheel (based on seeing one used by a novice, but no
hands-on experience) forms the curves by reducing the thickness of the
metal in the middle of a curve, thus making it have more area, and thus
forcing it into a curve instead of a plane. (The skill from experience,
of course, would be what allowed you to make the curve you *want*
instead of some other curve.

As for what was done before they started coming into the US, in
large-scale production, it was done with dies and presses. For one-offs
and really small production, probably a planishing (sp?) hammer and an
appropriate anvil could accomplish the same thing as the English wheel
-- perhaps with a greater need for learned skill.

O.K. This site (and its earlier parts) may give a clue how that
is done. It is an armour making site, and this is part 5, so you may
want to step back and read them all.

http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/planishing.html

But all this is speculation, as I don't (yet) do such work.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #55   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?

one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.

actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho


  #56   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 1/4/2014 11:36 PM, stryped wrote:
Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body

or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt
everything togetjer?

one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.

actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband

a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho


Actually, yes, I could do that with no trouble.

It would help to build a frame under the plug.

It would be best to divide the body along the
same lines as the steel car body. Work with
reasonable sized pieces.

It would be amazingly handy to learn to draw well.

Odd things like that...


  #57   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?

one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.

actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho



You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam.
You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with
fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together.
And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me
too.
  #58   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped

wrote:



Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?




one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.




actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho






You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam.

You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with

fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together.

And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me

too.


My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A

I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece?

Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think.
  #59   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 17:39:30 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped

wrote:



Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?




one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.




actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho






You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam.

You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with

fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together.

And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me

too.


My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A

I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece?


It was welded up from at least a dozen parts, with all the seams
leaded

Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think.

Aircraft Spruce.
  #60   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

Aircraft Spruce and specialty:
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/menus/cm/

Wicks Aircraft:
http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/composites-finishing-materials

EpoxyWorks:
http://www.epoxyworks.com/backissues.html

Instructibles - Making small fiberglass parts:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...erglass-parts/

Special composites:
http://www.sollercomposites.com/comp...tml#fiberglass

CFLEX:
Interesting possibilities for something like a car body!
http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html

Urethane pour-in foam
http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

Quickie and Q2/Q200 actual plans files
http://www.finleyweb.net/JonsStuff/QuickieQ2Docs.aspx
Really good stuff.

Somewhere in the newsletters was a cool description of a
technique to drill holes in aluminum tube so that the tube
can go either way (ie: dead center) with a hand drill no less!

Interesting moldless electric car body construction
http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html




  #61   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:

If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,
you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.



The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your
parts!


  #62   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:



If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,

you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.


That would be ideal. Unfortunaetly, don't know anyone willing to do that!




The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your

parts!


  #63   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:



If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,

you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.


Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.




The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your

parts!


  #64   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

"stryped" wrote in message
...

Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
(like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.


Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
You could look into their procedures.
http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html

Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
though it was full-sized.
http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647



  #65   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
(like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.


Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
You could look into their procedures.
http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html

Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
though it was full-sized.
http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647




My own efforts...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm


  #66   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Monday, January 6, 2014 8:27:13 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...



Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car


(like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of


it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow


use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may


know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.






Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.

You could look into their procedures.

http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html



Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as

though it was full-sized.

http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647


I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features on a car.

You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the appropriate size if that makes sense.
  #67   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,984
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a

planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a

good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be

a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter

would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and

build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body



Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet..

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan

  #68   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,888
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 6, 2014 8:27:13 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message


I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the
purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features
on a car.

You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if
you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the
proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the
appropriate size if that makes sense.


That is exactly what 'lofting' does. The Loft is the top floor of the
boat-building shed, where the workmen lay out full-sized patterns for
the frames of the ship on the floor.
http://www.leithshipyards.com/mould-loft/lofting.html
http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive...yard&subtitle=

The process isn't obsolete; I've seen lofted plywood templates for
shaping the diving planes of a nuclear submarine.



  #69   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

In article ,
says...

On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a

planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a

good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be

a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter

would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and

build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body



Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been

trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan


The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using
hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a
clue. This advice also applies to others in this thread who have no
clues (along with some who pretend to), not just you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

I own it. It's easily the best DVD on sheet metal forming I own and I
probably have 20 of them that I've purchased over many years. Covell,
Fournier, White, etc. I've also taken hands on classes with Fay Butler
on using a Power hammer:

http://www.faybutler.com/

If you understood how to use hand tools to form sheet metal you would
understand that a planishing hammer is basically the equivalent of a
slapper (often made from a file that's heated and bent) and a dolly. You
frequently use both to raise low spots.

This group isn't the place to get expert sheet metal forming advise.
Much of what I've seen posted so far is bad information and doesn't give
someone the fundamental understanding they need to be successful. The
answer isn't tools. The answer is dedication to building skills from
lots and lots of practice. The above link to David Gardner's DVD and
some hand tools is all someone needs to see if sheet metal forming is
for them. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand
tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and
further mask your real problems.

How soon before you **** yourself again and go back to asking for
pictures of my home machine shop instead of focusing on building the
skills you are lacking? All that electrical knowledge you have doesn't
do you jack **** in this case. Time to get some clues.








  #70   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel
and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either,
but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered
English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a
mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now.
It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more
force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the
name so I could look at plans on the internet.

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion
kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan


You use the wheel more for larger open curves like fenders, hoods, roof
panels. (you can use it for smaller stuff but you need to work harder.
The wheel is also only a stretching tool.


Planishing hammer is more for close up work on something like headlight
buckets, gas tanks, basically smaller parts or tighter curves.
Depending on the heads used it stretch or shrink metal. It also can be
easily used closer to the edge than a wheel.

If your going to start with steel sheet and form an entire body from
steel it takes a lot of tooling and time.

If I wanted a "common" looking car I would opt for a kit, most of which
require substantial work to finish. (which is why there are tons of
unfinished or un-started kits around. I would also opt for steel if
possible. Fiberglass is OK for a show car but when you start really
driving them most start to show weaknesses very soon.

Now if I was building something "different" then I'd probably opt for
fiberglass over foam sheet. Easy to work with and faster prototype
construction.

http://www.rqriley.com

http://www.healeyfactory.com/index.htm

http://www.tbucketplans.com/
http://bucketbuilder.bb3host.com/index.php
http://forums.bucketheadbash.com/index.php
http://www.t-bucketplans.com/
http://www.jalopyjournal.com (look around and you can find full
dimensional drawings and more)

--
Steve W.


  #71   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:46:17 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800,
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
In article ,





I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.



Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.



One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?



I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?



Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.







http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143



"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats

hands-on instruction."





http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!

Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
onto wherever it needs to be formed.


Hammering onto the form doesn't work . You hammer the metal on forming
blocks, a slap bag, or whatever else does the job and then FIT it to
the buck, or mold.

So you would need a hardwood form
that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300
dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
Eric


You hammer form first, to get the rough shape started, then you
plannish and wheel to smooth the part and finish the shape. I'll have
to post the pictures of the nose bowl on my website. 2 peice nose bowk
for Pegazair 100, formed out of 16ga aluminum flashing. Same
principal with steel, but a LOT more work!!!!!!!
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

All the hammer forming I have done is by hammering onto a form. And it
works well. The metal tightly conforms to the wooden form.
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

  #72   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

In article ,
says...

On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a

planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a

good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be

a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter

would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and

build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body



Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been

trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan


There are a lot of sheet metal tools that you could be referring to.


One tool that hasn't been discussed in this thread is a shinker/
stretcher. This video shows and explains how a shrinker/stretcher is
used in conjunction with an English wheel to form sheet metal. Maybe it
will help you visualize what an English wheel can't do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qS9U3blO0




  #73   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 1/6/2014 4:55 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600,
wrote:

On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
(like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.


Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
You could look into their procedures.
http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html

Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
though it was full-sized.
http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647




My own efforts...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm


Hey Richard....

http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html

Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring.

Gunner



Gunner, try to understand this.
I don't WANT a project!

And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.

  #74   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a

planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a

good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be

a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter

would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and

build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body



Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan

You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an
english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long
smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer)
  #75   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:




To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a




planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a




good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be




a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter




would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and




build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body






Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.




It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.




Dan


You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an

english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long

smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer)


This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article)

I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work.


  #76   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On 1/7/2014 8:12 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:32:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 1/6/2014 4:55 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600,
wrote:

On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
(like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.


Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
You could look into their procedures.
http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html

Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
though it was full-sized.
http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647




My own efforts...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm

Hey Richard....

http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html

Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring.

Gunner



Gunner, try to understand this.
I don't WANT a project!


what..getting lazy in your old age?



Back when I was young and dumb and had no money, I was happy to try
to revive old boats. Buy something worthless, put a lot of hard work
into it. And wind up with a better looking, but still worthless old boat.

But I'm older and smarter now, and I have money too!

I can afford to buy what I want, not have to make do with some
resurrected trash.

So, I'll PASS on the trash boats, please.


And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.


Its called a Hobby. What.. you dont like hobbies?

(Grin)

Gunner, marking up another point on his side of the blackboard



For what? You think you scored something?
  #77   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

stryped wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll
former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead
roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for
annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of
the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit
easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet
metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body
Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English
Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not
used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind
of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal
tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not
think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the
anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked.
I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans
on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel
and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a
planishing hammer. Dan

You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an

english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long

smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing
hammer)


This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at
harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand.
This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out
of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra
was aluminum until I read the article)

I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated
air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck
thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the
air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work.


A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies
used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and
doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer.

Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious
dents to deal with.
Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to
form it and make it smooth because it is soft.

Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel.

--
Steve W.
  #78   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 2:03:29 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
stryped wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:


On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:








On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:


To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll


former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead


roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for


annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of


the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit


easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet


metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body


Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English


Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not


used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind


of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal


tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not


think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the


anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked.


I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans


on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel


and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a


planishing hammer. Dan


You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an




english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long




smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing


hammer)




This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at


harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand.


This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out


of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra


was aluminum until I read the article)




I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated


air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck


thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the


air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work.




A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies

used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and

doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer.



Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious

dents to deal with.

Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to

form it and make it smooth because it is soft.



Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel.



--

Steve W.


  #79   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,584
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

Go ahead and chalk up your jerk points, Mark.

It's semi-entertaining, I guess.

  #80   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default English wheel, and other metalworking questions

On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 15:57:46 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote:

SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?

Depends. Generally steel is harder to work than aluminum - unless you
try to work something like 6061T6.
Aluminum work hardens (most grades, anyway) and after a while it can
be "hard as flint" and not want to move at all - or even crack -
unless you anneal it between stages.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
English Wheel oldjag Metalworking 0 September 1st 07 06:50 PM
English wheel and related popularity Eric R Snow Metalworking 7 January 27th 05 11:37 AM
English wheel enthusiasts, look here Ted Bennett Metalworking 3 January 3rd 04 03:56 AM
Using an English wheel marc Metalworking 9 November 15th 03 06:55 AM
English Wheel- I'm confused BP Metalworking 4 October 24th 03 04:00 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"