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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote:
Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 -- Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu |
#43
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel. The planisher works. Not great but decent. |
#44
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
"Larry Jaqes" wrote in message ... On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500, wrote: Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred) and TIG away - no problem with the electronics. 2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF? and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively negating any benefit? The manager at the dealer's body shop said to disconnect the battery ground cable and use MIG. I'd rather risk having to reweld or Bondo the fender than replace the electronics. An amateurish fender patch doesn't immobilize the car. I had more than enough trouble chasing down an intermittent electrical fault in my truck. High frequency doesn't follow DC grounding rules, especially as the wavelength approaches the conductor length. jsw |
#45
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:44:15 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:53:04 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "Steve W." wrote in message ... Jim Wilkins wrote: I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the difficulty of working from only one side. White paint hides bodywork imperfections well. jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric heat. It's 3F outside. MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller. -- Steve W. I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to even see inside there. jsw Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred) and TIG away - no problem with the electronics. 2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF? and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively negating any benefit? They clamp the voltage - all lines to ground. If the headlights are relayed and cannot be connected just put a load across the battery terminals in place of the battery - not a dead short but a good "load" I wonder if the little tigger would light up the spare 9004 in my tool box...or do I need to worry? The Harbor Freight tigger doesn't have a HF section. It's a scratch-to-start. That's why copper coated rod is a must for me. -- Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu |
#46
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel. Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make it better? Gusseting? The planisher works. Not great but decent. MAN, those things are noisy! -- Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu |
#47
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 06:24:21 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel. Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make it better? Gusseting? Yes, it is a bit flexible - Use the roller parts and build a new frame. The rollers and bearings are pretty well worth the asking price. The planisher works. Not great but decent. MAN, those things are noisy! The one I use is mechanical, not pneumatic - not nearly as noisy - better control. |
#48
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel. The planisher works. Not great but decent. The wheel works MUCH better if you stiffen the frame. The planisher has a similar problem. The instructions call for the frame to be filled with sand to dampen the vibrations. IF you plan on keeping it weld some bracing on the arms and fill the frame with concrete mortar mix instead of sand. (it packs denser) -- Steve W. |
#49
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer? Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out. Oh, I see they a http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120 http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300 http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120 The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel. Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make it better? Gusseting? Yep, there are diagrams online showing what and where to add steel. The planisher works. Not great but decent. MAN, those things are noisy! Fill the frame with steel and replace the hammer with a better one and the noise level drops a bunch. -- Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu -- Steve W. |
#50
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?
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#51
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved? You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam, and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth. Less work overall just to make it out of steel (or aluminum). If your "dummy" pattern is smooth, and your mould is smooth, your body will be relatively smooth and require a LOT less sanding.. Or just buy a fiberglass bucket - they are available in varying quality, at a wide range of prices, from numerous suppliers (the simplest way) |
#52
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
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#53
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 18:41:49 -0600, Richard
wrote: On 1/4/2014 12:22 PM, wrote: On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), wrote: How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved? You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam, and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth. Hardly. Try moldless one-off techniques and avoid most of that mess. as described "or make a form for the body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam, and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth." Glue up foam forms, shape them the way that you want, and glass over. Epoxy doesn't desolve the foam, so no special protection needed. Or pain the foam with white glue and use polyester resin. Like I said Or just buy a fiberglass bucket - they are available in varying quality, at a wide range of prices, from numerous suppliers (the simplest way) Easier by far. But not always exactly what one wants. |
#54
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 2014-01-03, stryped wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: stryped fired this volley in : An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun. I had to look up what a T-Bucket was on the web. It is not a container for liquids. :-) [ ... ] I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use. Lloyd Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience. And videos can be edited to make things take a lot less time than they do in real life. There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some. If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel? Well ... heat *is* used (with quenching) on sheet metal, to shrink areas to remove dents. Sort of the opposite of what an English Wheel does. The English Wheel (based on seeing one used by a novice, but no hands-on experience) forms the curves by reducing the thickness of the metal in the middle of a curve, thus making it have more area, and thus forcing it into a curve instead of a plane. (The skill from experience, of course, would be what allowed you to make the curve you *want* instead of some other curve. As for what was done before they started coming into the US, in large-scale production, it was done with dies and presses. For one-offs and really small production, probably a planishing (sp?) hammer and an appropriate anvil could accomplish the same thing as the English wheel -- perhaps with a greater need for learned skill. O.K. This site (and its earlier parts) may give a clue how that is done. It is an armour making site, and this is part 5, so you may want to step back and read them all. http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/planishing.html But all this is speculation, as I don't (yet) do such work. Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#55
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?
one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket. actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho |
#56
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 1/4/2014 11:36 PM, stryped wrote:
Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer? one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket. actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho Actually, yes, I could do that with no trouble. It would help to build a frame under the plug. It would be best to divide the body along the same lines as the steel car body. Work with reasonable sized pieces. It would be amazingly handy to learn to draw well. Odd things like that... |
#57
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer? one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket. actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam. You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together. And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me too. |
#58
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped wrote: Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer? one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket. actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam. You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together. And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me too. My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece? Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think. |
#59
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 17:39:30 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote: On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped wrote: Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer? one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket. actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam. You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together. And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me too. My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece? It was welded up from at least a dozen parts, with all the seams leaded Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think. Aircraft Spruce. |
#60
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
Aircraft Spruce and specialty:
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/menus/cm/ Wicks Aircraft: http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/composites-finishing-materials EpoxyWorks: http://www.epoxyworks.com/backissues.html Instructibles - Making small fiberglass parts: http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...erglass-parts/ Special composites: http://www.sollercomposites.com/comp...tml#fiberglass CFLEX: Interesting possibilities for something like a car body! http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html Urethane pour-in foam http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html Quickie and Q2/Q200 actual plans files http://www.finleyweb.net/JonsStuff/QuickieQ2Docs.aspx Really good stuff. Somewhere in the newsletters was a cool description of a technique to drill holes in aluminum tube so that the tube can go either way (ie: dead center) with a hand drill no less! Interesting moldless electric car body construction http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html |
#61
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:
If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with, you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily. The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your parts! |
#62
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote: If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with, you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily. That would be ideal. Unfortunaetly, don't know anyone willing to do that! The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your parts! |
#63
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote: If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with, you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily. Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your parts! |
#64
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
"stryped" wrote in message
... Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size. You could look into their procedures. http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as though it was full-sized. http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647 |
#65
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message ... Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size. You could look into their procedures. http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as though it was full-sized. http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647 My own efforts... http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm |
#66
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Monday, January 6, 2014 8:27:13 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message ... Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size. You could look into their procedures. http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as though it was full-sized. http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647 I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features on a car. You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the appropriate size if that makes sense. |
#67
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan |
#68
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
"stryped" wrote in message
... On Monday, January 6, 2014 8:27:13 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote: "stryped" wrote in message I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features on a car. You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the appropriate size if that makes sense. That is exactly what 'lofting' does. The Loft is the top floor of the boat-building shed, where the workmen lay out full-sized patterns for the frames of the ship on the floor. http://www.leithshipyards.com/mould-loft/lofting.html http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive...yard&subtitle= The process isn't obsolete; I've seen lofted plywood templates for shaping the diving planes of a nuclear submarine. |
#69
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
In article ,
says... On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a clue. This advice also applies to others in this thread who have no clues (along with some who pretend to), not just you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8 I own it. It's easily the best DVD on sheet metal forming I own and I probably have 20 of them that I've purchased over many years. Covell, Fournier, White, etc. I've also taken hands on classes with Fay Butler on using a Power hammer: http://www.faybutler.com/ If you understood how to use hand tools to form sheet metal you would understand that a planishing hammer is basically the equivalent of a slapper (often made from a file that's heated and bent) and a dolly. You frequently use both to raise low spots. This group isn't the place to get expert sheet metal forming advise. Much of what I've seen posted so far is bad information and doesn't give someone the fundamental understanding they need to be successful. The answer isn't tools. The answer is dedication to building skills from lots and lots of practice. The above link to David Gardner's DVD and some hand tools is all someone needs to see if sheet metal forming is for them. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and further mask your real problems. How soon before you **** yourself again and go back to asking for pictures of my home machine shop instead of focusing on building the skills you are lacking? All that electrical knowledge you have doesn't do you jack **** in this case. Time to get some clues. |
#70
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel
and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You use the wheel more for larger open curves like fenders, hoods, roof panels. (you can use it for smaller stuff but you need to work harder. The wheel is also only a stretching tool. Planishing hammer is more for close up work on something like headlight buckets, gas tanks, basically smaller parts or tighter curves. Depending on the heads used it stretch or shrink metal. It also can be easily used closer to the edge than a wheel. If your going to start with steel sheet and form an entire body from steel it takes a lot of tooling and time. If I wanted a "common" looking car I would opt for a kit, most of which require substantial work to finish. (which is why there are tons of unfinished or un-started kits around. I would also opt for steel if possible. Fiberglass is OK for a show car but when you start really driving them most start to show weaknesses very soon. Now if I was building something "different" then I'd probably opt for fiberglass over foam sheet. Easy to work with and faster prototype construction. http://www.rqriley.com http://www.healeyfactory.com/index.htm http://www.tbucketplans.com/ http://bucketbuilder.bb3host.com/index.php http://forums.bucketheadbash.com/index.php http://www.t-bucketplans.com/ http://www.jalopyjournal.com (look around and you can find full dimensional drawings and more) -- Steve W. |
#71
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:46:17 -0500, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, wrote: On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote: In article , I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying. Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it. One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform? I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck? Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers. http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143 "I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats hands-on instruction." http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2 I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/ So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together? I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects? Thanks! Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal onto wherever it needs to be formed. Hammering onto the form doesn't work . You hammer the metal on forming blocks, a slap bag, or whatever else does the job and then FIT it to the buck, or mold. So you would need a hardwood form that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8 inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball. When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer. Eric You hammer form first, to get the rough shape started, then you plannish and wheel to smooth the part and finish the shape. I'll have to post the pictures of the nose bowl on my website. 2 peice nose bowk for Pegazair 100, formed out of 16ga aluminum flashing. Same principal with steel, but a LOT more work!!!!!!! --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com All the hammer forming I have done is by hammering onto a form. And it works well. The metal tightly conforms to the wooden form. Eric --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
#72
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
In article ,
says... On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan There are a lot of sheet metal tools that you could be referring to. One tool that hasn't been discussed in this thread is a shinker/ stretcher. This video shows and explains how a shrinker/stretcher is used in conjunction with an English wheel to form sheet metal. Maybe it will help you visualize what an English wheel can't do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qS9U3blO0 |
#73
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 1/6/2014 4:55 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600, wrote: On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: wrote in message ... Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size. You could look into their procedures. http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as though it was full-sized. http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647 My own efforts... http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm Hey Richard.... http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring. Gunner Gunner, try to understand this. I don't WANT a project! And I don't work for 10 cents an hour. |
#74
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) |
#75
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article) I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work. |
#76
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On 1/7/2014 8:12 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:32:03 -0600, wrote: On 1/6/2014 4:55 PM, Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600, wrote: On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: wrote in message ... Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it. Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size. You could look into their procedures. http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as though it was full-sized. http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-En...181449-6977647 My own efforts... http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm Hey Richard.... http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring. Gunner Gunner, try to understand this. I don't WANT a project! what..getting lazy in your old age? Back when I was young and dumb and had no money, I was happy to try to revive old boats. Buy something worthless, put a lot of hard work into it. And wind up with a better looking, but still worthless old boat. But I'm older and smarter now, and I have money too! I can afford to buy what I want, not have to make do with some resurrected trash. So, I'll PASS on the trash boats, please. And I don't work for 10 cents an hour. Its called a Hobby. What.. you dont like hobbies? (Grin) Gunner, marking up another point on his side of the blackboard For what? You think you scored something? |
#77
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
stryped wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote: On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article) I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work. A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer. Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious dents to deal with. Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to form it and make it smooth because it is soft. Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel. -- Steve W. |
#78
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 2:03:29 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote: stryped wrote: On Monday, January 6, 2014 6:40:16 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote: On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 07:48:15 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet. It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer. Dan You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer) This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article) I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work. A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer. Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious dents to deal with. Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to form it and make it smooth because it is soft. Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel. -- Steve W. |
#79
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
Go ahead and chalk up your jerk points, Mark.
It's semi-entertaining, I guess. |
#80
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English wheel, and other metalworking questions
On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 15:57:46 -0800 (PST), stryped
wrote: SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work? Depends. Generally steel is harder to work than aluminum - unless you try to work something like 6061T6. Aluminum work hardens (most grades, anyway) and after a while it can be "hard as flint" and not want to move at all - or even crack - unless you anneal it between stages. |
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