The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Doug White wrote:
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air

pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,

but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The

ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue

undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center

of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that

the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto

that I don't need to largely cut away.



I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,

but it's going to be tedious & fussy.



The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled

out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to

spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both

sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.



There a picture he



http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg



The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the

image.



The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make

an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end

of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work

to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.



One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out

the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.

That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.



Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?



Thanks!



Doug White

If you can tolerate the pin spinning in the hole perhaps quite a bit I've found drilling rotating pins works if you angle the piece, idea is to angle the part so the drill spins the pin but off-center, on 'average' there will be a part where the bit is hitting where the bit surface speed will be larger than the pins.

Maybe you could CA or loc-tite a small metal rod in the drilled end and clamp the rod in the vise?

Dave

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:18:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air



pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,



but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The



ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue



undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center



of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that



the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto



that I don't need to largely cut away.







I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,



but it's going to be tedious & fussy.







The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled



out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to



spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both



sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.







There a picture he







http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg







The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the



image.







The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make



an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end



of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work



to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.







One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out



the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.



That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.







Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?







Thanks!







Doug White



If you can tolerate the pin spinning in the hole perhaps quite a bit I've found drilling rotating pins works if you angle the piece, idea is to angle the part so the drill spins the pin but off-center, on 'average' there will be a part where the bit is hitting where the bit surface speed will be larger than the pins.



Maybe you could CA or loc-tite a small metal rod in the drilled end and clamp the rod in the vise?



Dave

BTW CA gets gummy and lets go at a fairly low temp if you get tired of waiting for acetone to do its thing.

Doug White wrote:

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?


Maybe a job for an EDM shop?

bob prohaska

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:45:16 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?
That would be my suggestion.. Clamp the gun so the pin is forced
against either a countersink or another drill bit. Using a drill bit
on both sides, one end or the other (or both) will be drilled out
enough to release the pin.

On 2013-12-27, Doug White wrote:
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

I can see that.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter,

Likely 8mm then. That is one of the ponts where metric and inch
measurements come close. (5/32", 5/16", 5/8").

and each end has a shallow drilled
out section.

How shallow? I can't tell from the photo.

It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

My thought is to get a 5/16" diameter multi-flute countersink
bit (used to be Severance, now some other company, IIRC), and mount it
vertically so it sticks out just enough to allow the force to be applied
to the cutting edges. Use it as an anvil to support one end of the pin,
and use a smaller drill bit (perhaps 5/32" or so) to drill most of the
way through. (You use the smaller drill bit so the torque from its
cutting edges is likely less than the torque needed to start the
countersink cutting.)

When you get say 3/4 of the way through (set up the quill stop on
the drill press to prevent the tip of the drill bit touching the tip of
the countersink), flip it over and drill from the other side.

Then increase the size of the bit to do something like the same
hole area increase (5/32" would be about 0.245 square inches, so
increase by the same for 0.395" diameter -- too big, looks like you can
target the final diameter of 0.315" (8mm) on the second step. (Or,
maybe you'll find that you need to start smaller, and increase by the
area of the first bit which works. Maybe start with a 0.125" bit, then
the next would be 0.176", and then the 0.216", and finally 0.315".

Or -- maybe skip the final 0.315", and put it over a bench block
and drive it out with a pin punch, as the walls will be thin enough
to give way by this time.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

I strongly doubt that the crazy glue will be strong enough, even
if you could get it into the holes between the pin and the walls.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

You have what I would try, at least.

It looks like you can remove that linkage assembly from the
action by removing C-clips, so you won't be juggling as heavy a bunch of
metal, and controlling it will be easier.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2013-12-27, Pete C. wrote:

Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

[ ... ]

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

[ ... ]

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?

I see that I should have read ahead instead of just posting.
The only thing that this doesn't have which I suggested is the starting
with a smaller bit, and increasing sizes in steps of equal added hole
area to keep the torque applied to the countersink about the same.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 27 Dec 2013 04:51:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

You have what I would try, at least.

It looks like you can remove that linkage assembly from the
action by removing C-clips, so you won't be juggling as heavy a bunch of
metal, and controlling it will be easier.

Good Luck,
DoN.

And putting it back together..consider an allen lock screw inside of a
slotted pin and have it expand when you screw in the lock screw..and
can be removed the next time easily.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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fired this volley in
:

That would be my suggestion.. Clamp the gun so the pin is forced
against either a countersink or another drill bit. Using a drill bit
on both sides, one end or the other (or both) will be drilled out
enough to release the pin.

That's not only how it 'would be' done, that's very often how it IS done.
One of my prior bosses had a block set up to accept any one of about a
dozen different stub-length drills for just that sort of job.

The other way (on with things that don't care about heat) is to weld or
braze an extension onto the pin, and vise the extension.

Lloyd

"Pete C." wrote in news:52bccd9c$0$29568$862e30e2
@ngroups.net:


Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the
center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang
onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow
drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends
to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to
make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far
end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of
work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?

I thought about that. I suppose if I put a cutter on both ends, one
fixed & one under power, one of them will do the job before the other
one does. Or both will be the same, I don't care. My only concern is
not being able to see what's going on underneath, and fixturing it so it
can't scoot sideways.

Doug White

wrote in
:

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Doug White wrote:
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air

pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,

but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The

ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue

undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the
center


of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that

the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang
onto


that I don't need to largely cut away.



I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,

but it's going to be tedious & fussy.



The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow
drilled


out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends
to


spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both

sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.



There a picture he



http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg



The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the

image.



The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to
make

an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far
end


of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of
work


to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.



One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out

the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.


That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.



Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?



Thanks!



Doug White

If you can tolerate the pin spinning in the hole perhaps quite a bit
I've found drilling rotating pins works if you angle the piece, idea
is to angle the part so the drill spins the pin but off-center, on
'average' there will be a part where the bit is hitting where the bit
surface speed will be larger than the pins.

Maybe you could CA or loc-tite a small metal rod in the drilled end
and clamp the rod in the vise?

Dave

Because the holes are mashed up, getting a good fit will be tricky. I
don't want to spin the pin too much, because I don't want any more wear
in the holes I'm trying to save.

So far, the winner seems to be a double cutter set up.

Doug White

wrote in
:

snip

BTW CA gets gummy and lets go at a fairly low temp if you get tired of
waiting for acetone to do its thing.


Yeah, I'm actually concerned that the heat from amchinign will soften it
up too much unless I'm VERY careful.

Doug White

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:20:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:18:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air



pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,



but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The



ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue



undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center



of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that



the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto



that I don't need to largely cut away.







I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,



but it's going to be tedious & fussy.







The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled



out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to



spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both



sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.







There a picture he







http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg







The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the



image.







The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make



an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end



of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work



to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.







One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out



the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.



That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.







Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?







Thanks!







Doug White



If you can tolerate the pin spinning in the hole perhaps quite a bit I've found drilling rotating pins works if you angle the piece, idea is to angle the part so the drill spins the pin but off-center, on 'average' there will be a part where the bit is hitting where the bit surface speed will be larger than the pins.



Maybe you could CA or loc-tite a small metal rod in the drilled end and clamp the rod in the vise?



Dave

BTW CA gets gummy and lets go at a fairly low temp if you get tired of waiting for acetone to do its thing.

Another suggestion is to mount 2 drills in a lathe, place the center punched pin
between them and slowly turn it. One or both drills will intermittently grab and give
you a hole that you may use an easy out in to allow you to drill out the other end.
Please let us know what works.

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.

To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG

User Bp wrote in :

Doug White wrote:

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?


Maybe a job for an EDM shop?

I'm trying to do this on the cheap. The team lost their varsity status
several years ago, and runs mostly on donations now.

If I could get parts more easily, I'd just replace the whole assembly.
The US importer would only sell me the pins & broken arms, and only two
of each. For some reason, they abruptly stopped selling parts entirely
last spring. I found another source for some more common parts, but no
one who works on these has ever seen a broken linkage before, so they
don't have those pieces.

Doug White

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
:

On 2013-12-27, Doug White wrote:
snip

I strongly doubt that the crazy glue will be strong enough, even
if you could get it into the holes between the pin and the walls.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

You have what I would try, at least.

It looks like you can remove that linkage assembly from the
action by removing C-clips, so you won't be juggling as heavy a bunch
of metal, and controlling it will be easier.

Good Luck,
DoN.

This seems to be the concensus. I'll check out my countersink supply &
see what I can find. The swaged bit is quite shallow. If I start out
small and drill with ever increasing drill bits, hopefully I can open it
up without the countersink slipping.

Doug White

"Doug White" wrote in message
. ..
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement
parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it.
The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the
center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered
that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang
onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a
Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow
drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends
to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on
both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to
make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far
end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of
work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill
out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free
up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better
sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

You may be able to angle the Dremel such that the pin rotates slowly
as you open up the dimple, so you can thin the wall fairly evenly all
around enough that it can compress when you drive it out. Supporting
the far end may help.

A drill bit held at an angle may deepen the hole while it spins the
pin. I wouldn't use a good bit from a set for this.

On 27/12/2013 10:08 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:45:16 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?
That would be my suggestion.. Clamp the gun so the pin is forced
against either a countersink or another drill bit. Using a drill bit
on both sides, one end or the other (or both) will be drilled out
enough to release the pin.



Drillbit in lathe chuck, opposing bit or csk in the tail-stock.

On 27/12/2013 8:42 PM, KG wrote:
On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:20:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:18:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air



pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,



but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The



ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue



undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center



of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that



the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto



that I don't need to largely cut away.







I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,



but it's going to be tedious & fussy.







The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled



out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to



spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both



sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.







There a picture he







http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg







The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the



image.







The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make



an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end



of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work



to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.







One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out



the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.



That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.







Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?







Thanks!







Doug White



If you can tolerate the pin spinning in the hole perhaps quite a bit I've found drilling rotating pins works if you angle the piece, idea is to angle the part so the drill spins the pin but off-center, on 'average' there will be a part where the bit is hitting where the bit surface speed will be larger than the pins.



Maybe you could CA or loc-tite a small metal rod in the drilled end and clamp the rod in the vise?



Dave

BTW CA gets gummy and lets go at a fairly low temp if you get tired of waiting for acetone to do its thing.

Another suggestion is to mount 2 drills in a lathe, place the center punched pin
between them and slowly turn it. One or both drills will intermittently grab and give
you a hole that you may use an easy out in to allow you to drill out the other end.
Please let us know what works.

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.

To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG



you beat me to it! That'd be my approach too.

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On 27 Dec 2013 04:51:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

You have what I would try, at least.

It looks like you can remove that linkage assembly from the
action by removing C-clips, so you won't be juggling as heavy a bunch
of metal, and controlling it will be easier.

Good Luck,
DoN.

And putting it back together..consider an allen lock screw inside of a
slotted pin and have it expand when you screw in the lock screw..and
can be removed the next time easily.

In theory, this is a one time deal. Some bright students decided that
closing the action by pushing the cocking lever against the bench was
easier than doing it by hand. Before we could stop this practice,
they'd put their weight behind the process & broken two of the linkages.
These two got busted a couple years ago, and we haven't had a repeat
performance since.

We still have to keep an eye open in case one of the older students
remembers this trick & recommends it to one of the newbies. With time,
it will fade from the collective memory and then we just have to watch
out for somebody re-inventing it.

Every year the students come up with new ways to screw up. We keep
adding things to our list off do's & don't's, but its a challenge to
keep up with them.

This is at MIT. If you are interested in science & technology these
days, the path of least resistance is to play with computers. The
students have never taken hardware apart, and just have no mechanical
intuition at all. Most of them don't have any idea how to operate a
screwdriver properly. They either let things get loose & wonder why
they can't shoot well, or they overtighten them, either cross-threading
them, stripping the threads or breaking things.

It wouldn't be quite so bad, except all of the target pistols are
European or Russian, and many are out of production. Getting parts for
the ones that are still being made is hard enough.

The previous coach was difficult to get along with, and largely did
everything himself because nobody wanted to deal with him to help. He
was no gunsmith, and was disorganized. We inherited a lot of broken
guns with no idea what was wrong with them, and quite a few that weren't
labled as being broken. One student has been shooting a single shot .22
free pistol with no extractor. Nobody told him he wasn't supposed to
have to fish out every fired round by hand, so he never mentioned it to
anyone. I only found out it was missing by accident.

At least now I know what I will be doing with my retirement...

Doug White

KG wrote in
:

Another suggestion is to mount 2 drills in a lathe, place the center
punched pin between them and slowly turn it. One or both drills will
intermittently grab and give you a hole that you may use an easy out
in to allow you to drill out the other end. Please let us know what
works.


The double cutter approach seems to be the favorite. I had originally
been thinking of doing this in a mill, but upon further reflection, I
agree that a lathe is easier. I don't have to make a fixture for the
cutter on the "bottom" end, I can just put it in a collet. I also have
full visibility on both ends to see how things are progressing.

With all this in mind, I took a few measurements. The pin is smaller
than I thought, it's 6 mm in diameter. The dimple is too shallow to
allow using even a 90 degree countersink, so I'm left with drill bits or
end mills. I think a pair of 1/4" ball end mills might work, but
something smaller would be better. The swaging isn't perfectly
centered, and I want a little margin so I don't end up cutting into the
link. I only need to get the swaged part thin enough that I can easily
press out the pin without distorting the link.

A pair of 13/64" ball end mills should do it. That works out to 0.203",
compared to 0.236" for 6 mm.

Time to go shopping.

Doug White

Doug White wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in news:52bccd9c$0$29568$862e30e2
@ngroups.net:


Doug White wrote:

The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the
center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang
onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow
drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends
to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to
make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far
end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of
work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

How about setting up so the opposite side is pressed against a
multi-flute countersink to act to stop the pin from turning?

I thought about that. I suppose if I put a cutter on both ends, one
fixed & one under power, one of them will do the job before the other
one does. Or both will be the same, I don't care. My only concern is
not being able to see what's going on underneath, and fixturing it so it
can't scoot sideways.

Doug White

My though is that one of the six flute countersinks pressed solidly
against the pin should have more "bite" to keep it from rotating than a
two flute drill applied more gently on the top. You could also fixture
it horizontally so you can see the backside.

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:33:48 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On 27 Dec 2013 04:51:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

You have what I would try, at least.

It looks like you can remove that linkage assembly from the
action by removing C-clips, so you won't be juggling as heavy a bunch
of metal, and controlling it will be easier.

Good Luck,
DoN.

And putting it back together..consider an allen lock screw inside of a
slotted pin and have it expand when you screw in the lock screw..and
can be removed the next time easily.

In theory, this is a one time deal. Some bright students decided that
closing the action by pushing the cocking lever against the bench was
easier than doing it by hand. Before we could stop this practice,
they'd put their weight behind the process & broken two of the linkages.
These two got busted a couple years ago, and we haven't had a repeat
performance since.

I hope nobody ever finds the bodies. evil grinne


We still have to keep an eye open in case one of the older students
remembers this trick & recommends it to one of the newbies. With time,
it will fade from the collective memory and then we just have to watch
out for somebody re-inventing it.

Every year the students come up with new ways to screw up. We keep
adding things to our list off do's & don't's, but its a challenge to
keep up with them.

Stupidity seems to mutate at a higher rate than smart cells.


This is at MIT. If you are interested in science & technology these
days, the path of least resistance is to play with computers. The
students have never taken hardware apart, and just have no mechanical
intuition at all. Most of them don't have any idea how to operate a
screwdriver properly. They either let things get loose & wonder why
they can't shoot well, or they overtighten them, either cross-threading
them, stripping the threads or breaking things.

Talk about a truly distressing trend in our "society"... Morons In
Technology? 'Tis a sad, sad era.


It wouldn't be quite so bad, except all of the target pistols are
European or Russian, and many are out of production. Getting parts for
the ones that are still being made is hard enough.

Yeah, it's hard enough getting American-made replacement parts now
that 90% of them are offshored.


The previous coach was difficult to get along with, and largely did
everything himself because nobody wanted to deal with him to help. He
was no gunsmith, and was disorganized. We inherited a lot of broken
guns with no idea what was wrong with them, and quite a few that weren't
labled as being broken. One student has been shooting a single shot .22
free pistol with no extractor. Nobody told him he wasn't supposed to
have to fish out every fired round by hand, so he never mentioned it to
anyone. I only found out it was missing by accident.

Hoboy...


At least now I know what I will be doing with my retirement...

You're a Value Added Alumnus, Doug. Bestest Kudos, sir.


--
Worrying does not take away tomorrow's troubles,
it takes away today's peace. --Lifehack

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:32:06 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

snip
The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.
snip

Any thought to simply getting a 6m/m- pin and an arbor press
and pushing the pins out with a block to support the
linkage, possibly soaking the assembly in penetrating oil
first and some heat?

I do like the suggestion of two stub drills in a lathe to
weaken the swedge, perhaps drilling and then pressing.

Sounds like a good compact method to retain pins. Is this
strictly a Russian technique, European, or?

Anyone know if the holes in the linkages are straight or
have a slight taper for this technique. Center drilling
both ends of a pin and a suitable punch for assembly sounds
attractive for the right application.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 12/27/2013 2:32, Doug White wrote:
Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Weaken one end of pin with dremel by hand using either rod-shaped
grinding wheel (slow) or an engraving "end mill" cutter at dremel.
Just remove as much material at center of pin as possible. It will work
ok even though the pin rotates a little. After that, firm impact with a
hammer and small punch to center to remove the pin - it
will break the pin at the weakened end at interface between the
pin round body and bigger diameter end, leaving the pin and a ring.
Preferable dremel a hole that is bigger than punch diameter.

That's how I would try it. It has worked on similar cases as the pins
are usually quite hard and break (fracture) easily with such impact..

Kristian Ukkonen.

In article , F. George
McDuffee wrote:

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:32:06 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

snip
The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.
snip

[snip]

I do like the suggestion of two stub drills in a lathe to
weaken the swedge, perhaps drilling and then pressing.

Sounds like a good compact method to retain pins. Is this
strictly a Russian technique, European, or?

No, I recall reading a 1970s or 1980s ad from a US maker of relays
crowing that they used this method to assemble their relays. Don't
know if they invented the method or not. As I recall, they left the
ball in the pin, so drilling would be difficult.

Joe Gwinn

Ball end mill cutters are generally side cutting, in that there is very
little/none cutting at the tip of the ball, unless you can source cutters
that are similar to split-point drills.
The same goes for countersink cutters.. they're just not as effective
without a properly sized hole to feed into.

After using the Dremel to center the divots at the ends of the pin,
proceeding with 2 split-point drills from opposite sides would likely be the
easiest approach.

Split-point drills begin to cut immediately upon contact with the workpiece,
whereas conventionally ground drills require feed pressure to force the
drill's web into the workpiece.

--
WB
..........


"Doug White" wrote in message
.. .

The double cutter approach seems to be the favorite. I had originally
been thinking of doing this in a mill, but upon further reflection, I
agree that a lathe is easier. I don't have to make a fixture for the
cutter on the "bottom" end, I can just put it in a collet. I also have
full visibility on both ends to see how things are progressing.

With all this in mind, I took a few measurements. The pin is smaller
than I thought, it's 6 mm in diameter. The dimple is too shallow to
allow using even a 90 degree countersink, so I'm left with drill bits or
end mills. I think a pair of 1/4" ball end mills might work, but
something smaller would be better. The swaging isn't perfectly
centered, and I want a little margin so I don't end up cutting into the
link. I only need to get the swaged part thin enough that I can easily
press out the pin without distorting the link.

A pair of 13/64" ball end mills should do it. That works out to 0.203",
compared to 0.236" for 6 mm.

Time to go shopping.

Doug White

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:16:00 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

snip
Split-point drills begin to cut immediately upon contact with the workpiece,
whereas conventionally ground drills require feed pressure to force the
drill's web into the workpiece.
snip

Good point and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the
insight.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On 12/26/2013 6:32 PM, Doug White wrote:
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it. The
ends of the pin are even with the sides of a piece I need to rescue
undamaged. I had originally planned on drilling/milling out the center
of the swaged part enough to press the pin out, but I discovered that
the pin is free to rotate. There's nothing exposed enough to hang onto
that I don't need to largely cut away.

I can probably grind out the swaged bit VERY carefully with a Dremel,
but it's going to be tedious & fussy.

The pins are about 5/16" in diameter, and each end has a shallow drilled
out section. It looks like they pressed ball bearings into the ends to
spread them. The linkage the pin goes through is countersunk on both
sides, so the swaged bits hold everything together.

There a picture he

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...inkage-web.jpg

The pin is the large one with the dimple just left of center in the
image.

The only way I can think of to physically hang onto the pin is to make
an expanding collet that goes into the drilled out pocket on the far end
of the pin. That is going to be tenuous at best, and it's a lot of work
to fabricate for a high likelihood of failure.

One other option would be to crazy glue everything together, mill out
the swaged bit, and then soak it in acetone until the pieces free up.
That assumes the crazy glue can handle the machining forces.

Before I drag out the Dremel, does anyone have any better sugestions?

Thanks!

Doug White

This is a trick for removing broken off bolts, etc. Take an appropriate
nut and weld it to the swaged pin. You now have a "handle" that is
fairly easy to grip in a vise of some type. You should now be able to
drill out the opposite swaged end and, hopefully, remove enough parts to
grasp the drilled end to work on the nutted end.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:32:06 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

snip
The collegiate pistol team I help coach has two Russian target air
pistols that have broken cocking linkages. I have replacement parts,
but I need to disassemble a linkage that has a swaged pin in it.
snip

Given this is a high tech university, there should be a ram
type EDM or hole shooter on campus in one of the machining
labs. Have you tried a few phone calls or a visit to the
lab?
http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/S62.1...le/peters.ben/
http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/67120
http://www.ll.mit.edu/
http://web.mit.edu/mact/www/Blog/Mac...ShopIndex.html



--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Split-point drills have several advantages over coventionally ground points.

The s-p is far less likely to wander or skate when starting a hole.. because
there's no web preventing the cutting edges from cotacting the workpiece.

The s-p requires less feed pressure because there's no web, the chisel edge
of the web of coventional points has to continuously be forced into the
workpiece to displace material.. essentially "wallowing out" a path for the
web.

Since the s-p is constantly cutting, faster feed rates can be attained.

Split points aren't difficult to grind. The don't require a special,
precision gash cut into the center.. instead, they're ground by removing
material from the back/trailing side of each land, then the usual crowned
grind is added.
The second/crowned grinds can also be flat, creating a 4-factet split-point.

--
WB
..........


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:16:00 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

snip
Split-point drills begin to cut immediately upon contact with the
workpiece,
whereas conventionally ground drills require feed pressure to force the
drill's web into the workpiece.
snip

Good point and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the
insight.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"Wild_Bill" wrote in
:

Ball end mill cutters are generally side cutting, in that there is
very little/none cutting at the tip of the ball, unless you can source
cutters that are similar to split-point drills.
The same goes for countersink cutters.. they're just not as effective
without a properly sized hole to feed into.

Because the geometry, which has a shallow hole in the center, the ball
end mills actually cut just fine, and in fact, most ball end mills are
center cutting anyway. The pins are just a little larger than 7/32", so
I actually got one that size, and a 13/64" one as well. My theory was
that the smaller one would cut preferentially, so the big one would be
"fixed".

Well, it worked! I put the 7/32" ball-end cutter in the headstock of my
lathe, and the ball-end 13/64" cutter in the tailstock, disengaged the
gears, and rotated the spindle by hand. Contrary to plan, the smaller
cutter stayed put, and the larger one did all the cutting, but such is
life... The next time (if there is one) I will reverse the position of
the cutters for a better view of things. The cutter chatters a bit, but
by the time I got to the critical point, it had pretty well centered
itself.

Because there was less margin for error in centering, I carefully placed
the best centered swage end of each pin towards the larger cutter. I
could easily control the depth with the tailstock handwheel, and snuck
up on the cut. It actually took a lot more cutting than I expected to
get the pins to the point where they would drive out with a good blow
with a fairly heavy hammer. Tapping with a small hammer got me nowhere.
From the point where it first started cutting, I had to advance 35 to 40
mils to get the pins to drive out.

Once they were out, I was amazed at how much the ends had been flared
out by the original swaging. The nominal OD of the pins is just under
5mm. I measured across the ends that were unmolested, and one pin was
mashed out to 5.6mm, and the second one was 5.4mm.

I've got a selection of different OD ball bearings to choose from to
flare the new pins, but I'll need to make some plates with shallow holes
to hang onto & align them. It will be interesting to see if my 3 ton
arbor press will produce enough flare, or it I will need one of my
wife's sledge hammers.

Thanks for all the suggestions! Once I had a good plan of attack, this
all worked very nicely.

Doug White

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 00:52:04 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

"Wild_Bill" wrote in
:

Ball end mill cutters are generally side cutting, in that there is
very little/none cutting at the tip of the ball, unless you can source
cutters that are similar to split-point drills.
The same goes for countersink cutters.. they're just not as effective
without a properly sized hole to feed into.

Because the geometry, which has a shallow hole in the center, the ball
end mills actually cut just fine, and in fact, most ball end mills are
center cutting anyway. The pins are just a little larger than 7/32", so
I actually got one that size, and a 13/64" one as well. My theory was
that the smaller one would cut preferentially, so the big one would be
"fixed".

Well, it worked! I put the 7/32" ball-end cutter in the headstock of my
lathe, and the ball-end 13/64" cutter in the tailstock, disengaged the
gears, and rotated the spindle by hand. Contrary to plan, the smaller
cutter stayed put, and the larger one did all the cutting, but such is
life... The next time (if there is one) I will reverse the position of
the cutters for a better view of things. The cutter chatters a bit, but
by the time I got to the critical point, it had pretty well centered
itself.

Because there was less margin for error in centering, I carefully placed
the best centered swage end of each pin towards the larger cutter. I
could easily control the depth with the tailstock handwheel, and snuck
up on the cut. It actually took a lot more cutting than I expected to
get the pins to the point where they would drive out with a good blow
with a fairly heavy hammer. Tapping with a small hammer got me nowhere.
From the point where it first started cutting, I had to advance 35 to 40
mils to get the pins to drive out.

Once they were out, I was amazed at how much the ends had been flared
out by the original swaging. The nominal OD of the pins is just under
5mm. I measured across the ends that were unmolested, and one pin was
mashed out to 5.6mm, and the second one was 5.4mm.

I've got a selection of different OD ball bearings to choose from to
flare the new pins, but I'll need to make some plates with shallow holes
to hang onto & align them. It will be interesting to see if my 3 ton
arbor press will produce enough flare, or it I will need one of my
wife's sledge hammers.

Thanks for all the suggestions! Once I had a good plan of attack, this
all worked very nicely.

Doug White
Glad it worked for you.

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 00:52:04 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

"Wild_Bill" wrote in
:

Ball end mill cutters are generally side cutting, in that there is
very little/none cutting at the tip of the ball, unless you can source
cutters that are similar to split-point drills.
The same goes for countersink cutters.. they're just not as effective
without a properly sized hole to feed into.

Because the geometry, which has a shallow hole in the center, the ball
end mills actually cut just fine, and in fact, most ball end mills are
center cutting anyway. The pins are just a little larger than 7/32", so
I actually got one that size, and a 13/64" one as well. My theory was
that the smaller one would cut preferentially, so the big one would be
"fixed".

Well, it worked! I put the 7/32" ball-end cutter in the headstock of my
lathe, and the ball-end 13/64" cutter in the tailstock, disengaged the
gears, and rotated the spindle by hand. Contrary to plan, the smaller
cutter stayed put, and the larger one did all the cutting, but such is
life... The next time (if there is one) I will reverse the position of
the cutters for a better view of things. The cutter chatters a bit, but
by the time I got to the critical point, it had pretty well centered
itself.

Because there was less margin for error in centering, I carefully placed
the best centered swage end of each pin towards the larger cutter. I
could easily control the depth with the tailstock handwheel, and snuck
up on the cut. It actually took a lot more cutting than I expected to
get the pins to the point where they would drive out with a good blow
with a fairly heavy hammer. Tapping with a small hammer got me nowhere.
From the point where it first started cutting, I had to advance 35 to 40
mils to get the pins to drive out.

Once they were out, I was amazed at how much the ends had been flared
out by the original swaging. The nominal OD of the pins is just under
5mm. I measured across the ends that were unmolested, and one pin was
mashed out to 5.6mm, and the second one was 5.4mm.

I've got a selection of different OD ball bearings to choose from to
flare the new pins, but I'll need to make some plates with shallow holes
to hang onto & align them. It will be interesting to see if my 3 ton
arbor press will produce enough flare, or it I will need one of my
wife's sledge hammers.

Thanks for all the suggestions! Once I had a good plan of attack, this
all worked very nicely.

Doug White
=====================

Thanks for the feedback. Very informative thread.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"