Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd



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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd




Yes I agree. I was asking a compressor supplier about one of their
products recently and was told it was a 'D' rated compressor by email. I
called them and got the information that what he meant was derated.
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:17:48 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.


My fave was the radio alarm saw in the newspaper.
But seeing this kind of crap in a legal document just burns me up.

--
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which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.


We simply are not litirerily orientated.
We don't have enough liberries, either.... yo.

How bout the 80% of our Senate/Congress that sez "nukyooler".....
No matter, tho, cuz oh-ficial language in Wash. is Lobby$peak....
--
EA



Lloyd





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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of
charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd


They can compensate in person by drawing pictures, which are often
more helpful anyway. There is little point in verbally describing an
electrical schematic or the shape of a gear tooth. The drawing IS the
native language that best defines them.

I began posting here to practice technical writing, which I flunked
twice in college and would have at Mitre if they graded the course.
Instead the instructor told tales about surviving in the various
corporate and government management models, and how Leonard Bernstein
was a flaming gay who refused to hire anyone like him who wasn't.

Chemistry required a lot of writing, but it had evolved into
memorizeable cliches with precise and universally understood meanings,
like legalese.

I had to learn German to read their pioneering work in chemistry.
There was a soon-to-be Rhodes scholar in math in the class, so the
vocabulary was directed mostly at her. As in English some words like
"solution" (Loesung) apply in both fields.
jsw




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On 2012-09-11, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.


For some, this lack of literacy is an opportunity. Just check ebay
with all those misspelled items. Recently, I bought a "PANTARGRAPH
SET" for $50, resold for $150 as a "PANTOGRAPH SET". Steve B always
likes to buy "Vice Grips", last I heard.;

I do agree with you, though, it is sad to see so many people who
cannot spell properly.

i
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Ignoramus9479 wrote:

For some, this lack of literacy is an opportunity. Just check ebay
with all those misspelled items. Recently, I bought a "PANTARGRAPH
SET" for $50, resold for $150 as a "PANTOGRAPH SET". Steve B always
likes to buy "Vice Grips", last I heard.;


1/4 the price of vise grips I see!


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.


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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd




My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"



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On 9/11/2012 12:11 PM, Rick wrote:
....

My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"


The quintessential "duck tape" has always grated on my ears...

But, one has to be careful in throwing stones--I doubt there's anybody
who doesn't have at least one malapropism in their past even if it's
just a leftover from something grown-ups said while were kids that
didn't understand.

Not to say that education levels have not dropped all across the board;
certainly they have. General technical knowledge is abysmally low,
however...

--
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"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 9/11/2012 12:11 PM, Rick wrote:
...

My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"


The quintessential "duck tape" has always grated on my ears...



Actually, it was originally called duck tape because it was made from cotton
duck fabric and was water proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape

In fact it is not very good for ducts:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...es-3074152.php
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...tape-HVAC.html

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dpb wrote:
On 9/11/2012 12:11 PM, Rick wrote:
...

My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"


The quintessential "duck tape" has always grated on my ears...

I think someone in the UK or Europe saw an opportunity there and we in
the UK can buy "Duck" brand tape in many local DIY shops
http://www.duckbrand.com/ , actually looking at the contact info they're
US based http://www.duckbrand.com/Info/Contact.aspx . I always thought
it was duct tape for sealing duct joints or a similar application but
not really sure , some info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


But, one has to be careful in throwing stones--I doubt there's anybody
who doesn't have at least one malapropism in their past even if it's
just a leftover from something grown-ups said while were kids that
didn't understand.

Not to say that education levels have not dropped all across the
board; certainly they have. General technical knowledge is abysmally
low, however...

--

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On 9/11/2012 6:17 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd




That's why we invented drawing - first.
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"anorton" fired this volley in
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Actually, it was originally called duck tape because it was made from
cotton duck fabric and was water proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


That's one of those Wiki-Lies, probably written to defend the improper
use of the term "duck".

Since I'm old enough to remember, I'll tell you that the original DUCT
tape was made like today's profession Gaffer's tape. It was made from
canvas, not duck. Duck is a much heavier 2x2 weave that isn't ultimately
as strong as a single flat-weave canvas.

The original DUCT tape was strong, would stick tenaciously to everything,
and WAS used (specifically) on AC ducting in the early days of the late
40's through the 1970s.

In the mid-seventies, some cheap-for-the-dime retailers demanded that
someone make a sticky tape with an inexpensive gauze fabric and a thin
vinyl backing that "looked like duct tape"; for no other reason than to
cheapen it.

That cheap stuff "stuck" (as it were), and real duct tape became
"Professional Gaffer's tape", which one can still buy.

The original stuff presented a fabric backing, not a slick vinyl one, and
was not designed to hold by itself, but to be wire-bound to the (then
metal) ducting, then painted. It was a sealing mechanism, not a
structural fastener. And it was good. Not like the crap you buy today
under the same moniker.

LLoyd


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"David Billington" wrote in message ...
dpb wrote:
On 9/11/2012 12:11 PM, Rick wrote:
...

My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"


The quintessential "duck tape" has always grated on my ears...

I think someone in the UK or Europe saw an opportunity there and we in
the UK can buy "Duck" brand tape in many local DIY shops
http://www.duckbrand.com/ , actually looking at the contact info they're
US based http://www.duckbrand.com/Info/Contact.aspx . I always thought
it was duct tape for sealing duct joints or a similar application but
not really sure , some info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


For hvac ductwork what you want is aluminum foil tape in 4 mil thickness and to pass inspection it'll probably also need approval / listing under UL 181A-P or UL 181B-FX
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Richard fired this volley in
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That's why we invented drawing - first.


Not for nothin', but if someone cannot read or communicate well enough to
convey units and dimensions, a drawing does no good beyond conveying a
general idea.

Better than 70% of our population cannot read a ruler! What good would
it do to make a drawing with a specification of "11-7/8", if someone
cannot discern on a ruler what 7/8" IS?

If you doubt that, just watch a home being built (if you can find one,
these days).

LLoyd
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On 9/11/2012 2:36 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in
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That's why we invented drawing - first.


Not for nothin', but if someone cannot read or communicate well enough to
convey units and dimensions, a drawing does no good beyond conveying a
general idea.

Better than 70% of our population cannot read a ruler! What good would
it do to make a drawing with a specification of "11-7/8", if someone
cannot discern on a ruler what 7/8" IS?

If you doubt that, just watch a home being built (if you can find one,
these days).

LLoyd


I was thinking, before written language, Lloyd.
Building concepts into symbols.


However,
Running down stupid people doesn't really get us anywhere, does it?

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember that half of
the population is below that!

So I rejoice that over a third of us CAN do technically sophisticated
things. Not just a few magicians at the top...









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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"anorton" fired this volley in
:

Actually, it was originally called duck tape because it was made from
cotton duck fabric and was water proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


That's one of those Wiki-Lies, probably written to defend the improper
use of the term "duck".

Since I'm old enough to remember, I'll tell you that the original DUCT
tape was made like today's profession Gaffer's tape. It was made from
canvas, not duck. Duck is a much heavier 2x2 weave that isn't ultimately
as strong as a single flat-weave canvas.

The original DUCT tape was strong, would stick tenaciously to everything,
and WAS used (specifically) on AC ducting in the early days of the late
40's through the 1970s.

In the mid-seventies, some cheap-for-the-dime retailers demanded that
someone make a sticky tape with an inexpensive gauze fabric and a thin
vinyl backing that "looked like duct tape"; for no other reason than to
cheapen it.

That cheap stuff "stuck" (as it were), and real duct tape became
"Professional Gaffer's tape", which one can still buy.

The original stuff presented a fabric backing, not a slick vinyl one, and
was not designed to hold by itself, but to be wire-bound to the (then
metal) ducting, then painted. It was a sealing mechanism, not a
structural fastener. And it was good. Not like the crap you buy today
under the same moniker.

LLoyd


Thats interesting info. If you look into the first and third references in
the Wiki article, there is no doubt that there was a product called Duck
Tape in 1902 and 1945. Based on what you say, it sounds like there were
multiple products for multiple purposes that were cheapened and morphed
together over the years.

(Is duct tape the only subject that is on-topic in every newsgroup?)



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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:17:48 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of
charcoal types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd


That was just at typo. The author meant "Saw-zawl"

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"anorton" fired this volley in
:

Actually, it was originally called duck tape because it was made from
cotton duck fabric and was water proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


That's one of those Wiki-Lies, probably written to defend the improper
use of the term "duck".

Since I'm old enough to remember, I'll tell you that the original DUCT
tape was made like today's profession Gaffer's tape. It was made from
canvas, not duck. Duck is a much heavier 2x2 weave that isn't ultimately
as strong as a single flat-weave canvas.

The original DUCT tape was strong, would stick tenaciously to everything,
and WAS used (specifically) on AC ducting in the early days of the late
40's through the 1970s.

In the mid-seventies, some cheap-for-the-dime retailers demanded that
someone make a sticky tape with an inexpensive gauze fabric and a thin
vinyl backing that "looked like duct tape"; for no other reason than to
cheapen it.

That cheap stuff "stuck" (as it were), and real duct tape became
"Professional Gaffer's tape", which one can still buy.

The original stuff presented a fabric backing, not a slick vinyl one, and
was not designed to hold by itself, but to be wire-bound to the (then
metal) ducting, then painted. It was a sealing mechanism, not a
structural fastener. And it was good. Not like the crap you buy today
under the same moniker.

LLoyd


Having used many rolls of gaffer's tape, I can assure you while the old
duct tape and gaffer's tape may share the same fabric structure, the
adhesive is very different. Gaffer's tape adhesive is made to have a
relatively strong hold, but to not leave any residue when removed.
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"J. Clarke" fired this volley in
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But if you look into the history of it, it appears that "duct" is the
actual corruption. It was originally a tape with a backing of a type

of
fabric called "duck", and was used for sealing ammunition cans, not

HVAC
ducts.


There was a very early tape made from duck. It was "floppy" and
flexible, and did well working over extremely uneven surfaces.

But there also a formally-called "duct tape" made from canvas, not duck,
and very stiff -- designed to seal the gaps in uniformly-sized pipes...

LLoyd
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"Pete C." fired this volley in news:504fa688$0$9167
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Gaffer's tape adhesive is made to have a
relatively strong hold, but to not leave any residue when removed.


Leave it on in the sun for about a week, and then tell me about that.

Most gaffers and other stage crew strike the stuff they assemble every
night, and it's _usually_ not in full sun for several days.

I've got apple boxes covered with gaffer's tape "stains".

I've used hundreds of rolls in my fireworks shows.

(FWIW, good-quality duct tape - before the aluminum iron-down stuff -
would also come away clean until it got hot in an attic)

LLoyd
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Did they carry it around, in a hold dull? Or a carry dull?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd







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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
. 3.70:

I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of
charcoal types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.


I work at a research lab in Cambridge, MA, right next to MIT. We have a
program where grad students do their thesis work at our lab, working with
a staff member, but also supervised by a professor on the MIT campus.

I've supervised four Master's theses now, and have read quite a few other
recent ones. Even at a place like MIT, with a world-class reputation,
the writing skills of the engineering students is pretty pathetic. In
reviewing my student's theses, I spend far more time fixing spelling,
grammar & poor organization than I do any real technical issues. If I'm
going to sign off on it, it's going to be readable.

Some professors aren't that fussy. I recently read one that had been
"supervised" by a professor I know & respect, but that was done at a
different MIT affiliated lab supervised primarily by a staff member. It
was so full of mistakes it was embarassing. I suspect English wasn't the
student's native language, but his supervisor's either didn't read it, or
were too used to bad writing to care anymore.

Doug White
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"Pete C." wrote in message
...

Having used many rolls of gaffer's tape, I can assure you while the
old
duct tape and gaffer's tape may share the same fabric structure, the
adhesive is very different. Gaffer's tape adhesive is made to have a
relatively strong hold, but to not leave any residue when removed.


If you mess up the stage floor the dancers will kill you with their
bare feet.

Gaffer = grandfather, it means the master electrician. His assistant
is the Best Boy, once the senior apprentice.



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Doug White fired this volley in
:

I suspect English wasn't the
student's native language, but his supervisor's either didn't read it,
or were too used to bad writing to care anymore.


Yeah, Doug. I hate it when engineer's do that with their student's.

It would be better to make them do their assigment's right, or fail them.

LLoyd
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"Doug White" wrote in message
. ..

I work at a research lab in Cambridge, MA, right next to MIT. We
have a
program where grad students do their thesis work at our lab, working
with
a staff member, but also supervised by a professor on the MIT
campus.


Doug White


If it's the same lab, say hi to Mike Gansler for me.
jsw




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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:22:18 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:17:48 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of
charcoal types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd


That was just at typo. The author meant "Saw-zawl"

I like to be under cover when there is heavy per****itation.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:22:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Did they carry it around, in a hold dull? Or a carry dull?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd




The worst part of it is there are so many things that sound the same
(or close) or are spelled close to the same that are TOTALLY different
- and getting the wrong word into a technical spec can REALLY screw
things up when the guy following the instructions knows less about the
engineering than the engineer knows about the instructions he has
written.
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wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:22:18 -0500, Tim Wescott

wrote:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:17:48 -0500, Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh wrote:

I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry
forum (speaking of
charcoal types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot
communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd


That was just at typo. The author meant
"Saw-zawl"


I like to be under cover when there is heavy
per****itation.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada


Sometimes I get exhaustipated .... too tired to
give a ****...



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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"anorton" fired this volley in
:

Actually, it was originally called duck tape because it was made from
cotton duck fabric and was water proof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape


That's one of those Wiki-Lies, probably written to defend the improper
use of the term "duck".

Since I'm old enough to remember, I'll tell you that the original DUCT
tape was made like today's profession Gaffer's tape. It was made from
canvas, not duck. Duck is a much heavier 2x2 weave that isn't ultimately
as strong as a single flat-weave canvas.

The original DUCT tape was strong, would stick tenaciously to everything,
and WAS used (specifically) on AC ducting in the early days of the late
40's through the 1970s.

In the mid-seventies, some cheap-for-the-dime retailers demanded that
someone make a sticky tape with an inexpensive gauze fabric and a thin
vinyl backing that "looked like duct tape"; for no other reason than to
cheapen it.

That cheap stuff "stuck" (as it were), and real duct tape became
"Professional Gaffer's tape", which one can still buy.

The original stuff presented a fabric backing, not a slick vinyl one, and
was not designed to hold by itself, but to be wire-bound to the (then
metal) ducting, then painted. It was a sealing mechanism, not a
structural fastener. And it was good. Not like the crap you buy today
under the same moniker.

LLoyd


I've uses the real stuff recently. It was something insane like $20 a roll
at the counter of a photographic supply place. It's like a giant version
of friction tape. It doesn't become unsticky, and can mostly be removed
without leaving adhesive tracks and turning into dust.
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"J. Clarke" fired this volley in
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Tom, do you enjoy making a fool of yourself, because if you are going to
accuse the scientists at Oak Ridge of ignorance with regard to nuclear
energy that is _exactly_ what you are doing.


I don't believe that's what he did. I believe he was 'diagonally' denying
that they would be ignorant enough to pronounce the word "nuculus".

Lloyd
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"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Tom, do you enjoy making a fool of yourself, because if you are
going to
accuse the scientists at Oak Ridge of ignorance with regard to
nuclear
energy that is _exactly_ what you are doing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucular
"U.S. presidents who have used this pronunciation include Dwight D.
Eisenhower, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush."

Carter used both versions.



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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:11:40 -0400, "Rick"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.3.70...
I noticed this one in an explosives chemistry forum (speaking of charcoal
types):

"... 18v dewalt saw-zaw ..."

A society in which the members cannot communicate any technical
information in detail cannot prosper.

Lloyd




My favorites:

a settling torch
rod iron

For a long time the local DRMO had "scrap irony"


I had a Pennysaver ad come out once, and I quickly bit their heads off
for it. They said I offered "Softwear Services". sigh

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:31:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Doug White fired this volley in
:

I suspect English wasn't the
student's native language, but his supervisor's either didn't read it,
or were too used to bad writing to care anymore.


Yeah, Doug. I hate it when engineer's do that with their student's.

It would be better to make them do their assigment's right, or fail them.


Thats right. or Your right.

(Either makes one cringe. And our brains fill in for the missing "n"
there.)

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
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On 9/11/2012 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
....

Anyone who takes the Southern pronunciation of "nuclear" as a sign of
ignorance needs to spend some time in the nuclear engineering department
at one of the Oak Ridge Associated Universities.


Chuckle...

Hell, I'm a NE (BS '68, MS NucSci '79) and not even from anyways close
to "the South" and I say it that way about as often as not.

Did spend 10 yr in Lynchburg, VA (B&W NPGD) then 25+ in Oak Ridge,
though so it does rub off...

I wasn't there early enough to know firsthand how Fermi said it altho
Wigner was definitely not a practicer.

http://www.ornl.gov/adm/wigner_fellowship/

I always get a chuckle recalling a package received in Dept Head's
office at uni addressed to the "Department of Unclear Engineering"

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