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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my
machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? I think one goal is to keep heat from migrating through the tube from the hot end to the cool end. The best way to do this would be to make it from a material with low thermal conductivity, which may be why they use stainless. The hot air is near the outside over most of the length of the tube with the cool air in the center, so that is why heatsinking the whole cylindrical part of the tube might make sense. However, I agree heatsinking the cold outlet itself does not make much sense. Most refrigerators work more efficiently if the hot side is kept from getting too hot. I do not know enough about the theory of these tubes to say for sure if that is the case here, but it would certainly make sense. I once bought one of these for an esoteric cooling problem. It was so noisy we decided not to use it. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"anorton" wrote in message
m... "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? I think one goal is to keep heat from migrating through the tube from the hot end to the cool end. The best way to do this would be to make it from a material with low thermal conductivity, which may be why they use stainless. I was mulling that fine distinction over in my head as well. I think I might have a piece of acetal plastic I could machine as a thread in cold air tube and diaphragm for the cold end. The hot air is near the outside over most of the length of the tube with the cool air in the center, so that is why heatsinking the whole cylindrical part of the tube might make sense. However, I agree heatsinking the cold outlet itself does not make much sense. Most refrigerators work more efficiently if the hot side is kept from getting too hot. I do not know enough about the theory of these tubes to say for sure if that is the case here, but it would certainly make sense. I once bought one of these for an esoteric cooling problem. It was so noisy we decided not to use it. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? There seems to be two designs out there. One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. Any idea which one is more efficient? |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On 2012-03-13, Bob La Londe wrote:
Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? The primary benefit of heat sinking the hot output side (the only part which *I* see as benefiting from that) would be the reduction of heat conducted to the cold side and heating the air coming through that. A secondary benefit would be reducing the discomfort of accidentally contacting the hot output side with your hand when working around it. If you put styrofoam insulation around the cold tube, you would reduce the heat gained by condensing water onto the tube and thus improve the efficiency somewhat. (Note that this will consume a *lot* of air, so I hope you have a good air compressor -- and good hearing protection. :-) BTW That might be a benefit of using stainless as the material too lower thermal conductivity. But, FWIW, I made one once (as an experiment) in which the vortex was formed by a machined piece of brass (the only thing that I was then sure that I could machine), the housing was made from an old pipe union. The two output tubes were 1/2" copper tubing -- both of the same size, but the output end of the hot side had to be pinched down to about the diameter of the cold hole in the vortex assembly. If I were to make one today, I think that I might make the vortex forming assembly and the housing from Delrin -- minimize the conduction of heat in both directions. Perhaps the same (or PVC) for the cold tube. Copper or aluminum and heat sink fins for the hot tube. And ideally, some kind of muffler on at least the hot side, which is pointed out into the human space of the working environment. Make the hot tube significantly larger than the cold tube, which also benefits with better thermal conduction to the air, and only restrict the output end (a few inches downstream) of the hot tube to the diameter of the cold hole in the vortex assembly. Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#6
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in
: I was mulling that fine distinction over in my head as well. I think I might have a piece of acetal plastic I could machine as a thread in cold air tube and diaphragm for the cold end. Some are made from acetal, Bob -- the whole assembly, not merely one or the other end. LLoyd |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in news:n7y7r.13744
: I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, I do, too. Two 'scraps' 4"x12"x18", 6061. LLoyd |
#8
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? There seems to be two designs out there. One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. Any idea which one is more efficient? They both are terribly inefficient even if you also have a use for the hot side |
#9
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Mar 13, 8:48*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. *I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. *Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. *My quandry is in this. *I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. *One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it.. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. *I would think you would want to insulate that. *The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. *I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. *I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? There seems to be two designs out there. *One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. *The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. *Any idea which one is more efficient? They both are terribly inefficient even if you also have a use for the hot side- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, I have one small machine running flood coolant, but I would really like to keep the other machine dry for other reasons. I can build either design for starting the vortex. I had hoped somebody had already experimented with them and knew which style produced a greater temperature differential. I've got the plug design figured out to make flow adjustment quick and easy, and I can use my NCT for checking the output temps. I figured to just use a bathroom vent with auto closing louvers to send the hot air outside and let the cold air lightly pressurize (its not a sealed system) the cabinet. |
#10
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Mar 13, 4:49*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Bob La Londe" fired this volley in news:n7y7r.13744 : I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, I do, too. *Two 'scraps' 4"x12"x18", 6061. LLoyd Yeah. I have seen plenty of DIY ones on the web made out of PVC pipe too. The one under lying thing I have seen in most of those is a substantially lower differential than some of the commercially designed ones claim. It could be design (pocket vs jet) or some other factor like the material its made out of. |
#11
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Bob La Londe wrote:
Well, I have one small machine running flood coolant, but I would really like to keep the other machine dry for other reasons. I can build either design for starting the vortex. I had hoped somebody had (SNIP) --Well howzabout running a Microdrop system; they're *almost* dry; not real cheap tho.. -- "Steamboat Ed" Haas : Steel, Stainless, Titanium: Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Guaranteed Uncertified Welding! www.nmpproducts.com ---Decks a-wash in a sea of words--- |
#12
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Bob La Londe fired this volley in news:b589d4bf-
: It could be design (pocket vs jet) or some other factor like the material its made out of. I think its the concentricity and smoothness of the bore. The gas has got to get up to almost unimaginable rotations per minute inside there for the differential to be very high. Any minor defect in the walls, or any out- of-round condition would disturb the flow. LLoyd |
#13
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70... Bob La Londe fired this volley in news:b589d4bf- : It could be design (pocket vs jet) or some other factor like the material its made out of. I think its the concentricity and smoothness of the bore. The gas has got to get up to almost unimaginable rotations per minute inside there for the differential to be very high. Any minor defect in the walls, or any out- of-round condition would disturb the flow. That's a condition I had not considered. It makes sense though. I still wonder if the cam lobe shaped pocket vs the multiple angled jets has a substantial difference. Most of the DIYers are using the multiple angled jets method. Like I said. I can make either one. If I had more time to play I might make both and set them up to used on the same hot and cold tubes and compare. I don't have that kind of spare time right now though. |
#14
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... On Mar 13, 8:48 am, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I have some large aluminum bar stock laying around, (left over from another project) and I was thinking I could turn one out of it. My quandry is in this. I only ran across a few mentions of heat sinking in regards to Hilsch tubes. One article said to heat sink the whole thing. I think they just meant the whole heat separator/exchangers side of it. It would be counter intuitive to heat sink the cold air outlet tube. I would think you would want to insulate that. The thing is the physics of it is beyond me. I get the basics of both principle said to be at work. It's the details. I could easily turn heat sink fins on the outside. I just wonder if that will provide a lower ouput temperature, or if somehow it might reduce the efficiency of the design somehow? There seems to be two designs out there. One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. Any idea which one is more efficient? They both are terribly inefficient even if you also have a use for the hot side- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, I have one small machine running flood coolant, but I would really like to keep the other machine dry for other reasons. I can build either design for starting the vortex. I had hoped somebody had already experimented with them and knew which style produced a greater temperature differential. I've got the plug design figured out to make flow adjustment quick and easy, and I can use my NCT for checking the output temps. I figured to just use a bathroom vent with auto closing louvers to send the hot air outside and let the cold air lightly pressurize (its not a sealed system) the cabinet. === Feel free to dink around with it all you want but compressed air should by itself be entirely sufficient unless you are machining low melting temp materials almost exclusively and in an environment where contamination with liquids would also be unacceptable.. |
#15
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On 2012-03-13, Bob La Londe wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. [ ... ] There seems to be two designs out there. One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. Any idea which one is more efficient? Consider what might be easiest for you to make first. The cam-shaped lobe sounds like it is calling for some fancy programming in a CNC machine. (But then, you have the CNC machine, don't you? The way I made mine was to turn a ring near (but not at) the OD of the part to which the cold tube attaches, and then mill slots into the ring so they ended up tangential to the ID of the ring -- then mate that to a flat surface connected to the hot tube. This left a ring cavity just outside that into which air was fed via a tapped hole in one of the flats of the pipe junction. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#16
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On 2012-03-13, Bob La Londe wrote:
On Mar 13, 8:48*am, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. *I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. *Stainless is beyond my easy working level. [ ... ] There seems to be two designs out there. *One has a circular passage with angled holes drilled into the main tube. *The other has a lopsided cam lobe shaped chamber to spin the air. *Any idea which one is more efficient? They both are terribly inefficient even if you also have a use for the hot side- Hide quoted text - The ones which I saw which prompted my experimentation with them were being developed for use in a tank (tracked military vehicle, not a container for liquids or compressed air). The cold air was piped into holes in the top of the crew's helmets, to keep at least their brains from overheating. The two drawbacks of these things -- poor efficiency, and lots of noise -- were not a problem in that environment. Given how much power it takes to move all that forged iron and steel around, and how much noise both the engines and the tracks make, the crew would happily accept the benefit of cool heads. :-) [ ... ] Well, I have one small machine running flood coolant, but I would really like to keep the other machine dry for other reasons. I can build either design for starting the vortex. I had hoped somebody had already experimented with them and knew which style produced a greater temperature differential. I've got the plug design figured out to make flow adjustment quick and easy, and I can use my NCT for checking the output temps. I figured to just use a bathroom vent with auto closing louvers to send the hot air outside and let the cold air lightly pressurize (its not a sealed system) the cabinet. Sounds as though you can experiment with both, and let us know which works better. But I suspect that the cam lobe design is later, and presumably it either works better, or was designed to get around patent restrictions on Hilsch's designs. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#17
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Bob La Londe wrote:
Ok... I'm still mulling over the possibility of a Hilsch tube on one of my machines as the coolant and to blow chips away from the cutter. I see many commercial ones are made out of stainless, but that just isn't in my plans if I make one. Stainless is beyond my easy working level. I'd consider a long coil of mini copper tubing inside an ice - filled cooler before I'd consider a Hilsch tube. --Winston |
#18
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
In article ,
Winston wrote: I'd consider a long coil of mini copper tubing inside an ice - filled cooler before I'd consider a Hilsch tube. Or park the copper (or aluminum) tubing inside a mini (or larger) fridge (or chest freezer, I suppose - depends on what you have handy and space available) - enter the fridge section, and exit after a bunch in the freezer section. Drain-leg in the fride section would help with condensation. Quieter and far less power used than with the vortex tube. If it comes out of the freezer at 0F under pressure, it should be quite chilly by the time it expands at the nozzle. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away. |
#19
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:49:23 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote: In article , Winston wrote: I'd consider a long coil of mini copper tubing inside an ice - filled cooler before I'd consider a Hilsch tube. Or park the copper (or aluminum) tubing inside a mini (or larger) fridge (or chest freezer, I suppose - depends on what you have handy and space available) - enter the fridge section, and exit after a bunch in the freezer section. Drain-leg in the fride section would help with condensation. Quieter and far less power used than with the vortex tube. If it comes out of the freezer at 0F under pressure, it should be quite chilly by the time it expands at the nozzle. Nice out of (or in) the box solution- I bet the cost wouldn't be much different from buying a commercial vortex tube. A little muffin fan inside the fridge could help. |
#20
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:49:23 -0400, Ecnerwal wrote: In , wrote: I'd consider a long coil of mini copper tubing inside an ice - filled cooler before I'd consider a Hilsch tube. Or park the copper (or aluminum) tubing inside a mini (or larger) fridge (or chest freezer, I suppose - depends on what you have handy and space available) - enter the fridge section, and exit after a bunch in the freezer section. Drain-leg in the fride section would help with condensation. Good idea! Quieter and far less power used than with the vortex tube. If it comes out of the freezer at 0F under pressure, it should be quite chilly by the time it expands at the nozzle. Nice out of (or in) the box solution- I bet the cost wouldn't be much different from buying a commercial vortex tube. A little muffin fan inside the fridge could help. Or go cheaper, smaller and colder with a 'saturated - salt ice water' slurry in your ice chest. http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1722 --Winston |
#21
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
In article ,
Winston wrote: Or go cheaper, smaller and colder with a 'saturated - salt ice water' slurry in your ice chest. Ice generally isn't "free"; salt is cheap, but also not free, and can be corrosive to have around the shop; this is something Bob wants to run every day (or nearly), and labor to drain the sal****er and load up the fresh salt and ice also isn't free - so refrigeration wins, IMHO for cheaper. Smaller depends on the fridge you are using .vs. the cooler, ice source, and salt storage, which can easily be larger than a small fridge. It can also win on colder -21.1C is only -6F, and plenty of freezers can be cranked colder than that. OF is just a typical setting. It also wins on less messy. If it were a one-day deal or the like, I'd agree with you, but I'd choose refrigeration in a heartbeat for any regular use. I'm intimately aware of the hassles of salt-ice refrigeration, and I'm quite certain that if I were making ice cream and sorbet as a busness rather than for myself, it would be an easy decision to spend the money for a refrigerated mixer - for home use it's a lot of money, so I use salt and ice. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away. |
#22
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Mar 14, 4:54*pm, Ecnerwal
wrote: If it were a one-day deal or the like, I'd agree with you, but I'd choose refrigeration in a heartbeat for any regular use. I'm intimately aware of the hassles of salt-ice refrigeration, and I'm quite certain that if I were making ice cream and sorbet as a busness rather than for myself, it would be an easy decision to spend the money for a refrigerated mixer - for home use it's a lot of money, so I use salt and ice. Another approach would be to use a solid state cooler and a bit of compressed air. Peltier Junction Thermo Electric Heat Pump Dan |
#23
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ecnerwal wrote:
In , wrote: Or go cheaper, smaller and colder with a 'saturated - salt ice water' slurry in your ice chest. Ice generally isn't "free"; salt is cheap, but also not free, and can be corrosive to have around the shop; this is something Bob wants to run every day (or nearly), and labor to drain the sal****er and load up the fresh salt and ice also isn't free - so refrigeration wins, IMHO for cheaper. Because refrigeration is free? Really? (...) It also wins on less messy. OK, I'll give you that one. (...) My suggestion is just something to try for a few dollars. If it works for the duration of the project, Bob is not out much money. If it does not work, refrigeration is not going to work either. One experiment is worth years of theorizing. --Winston |
#24
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
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#25
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:25:39 -0700, Winston
wrote: wrote: On Mar 14, 4:54 pm, Ecnerwal wrote: If it were a one-day deal or the like, I'd agree with you, but I'd choose refrigeration in a heartbeat for any regular use. I'm intimately aware of the hassles of salt-ice refrigeration, and I'm quite certain that if I were making ice cream and sorbet as a busness rather than for myself, it would be an easy decision to spend the money for a refrigerated mixer - for home use it's a lot of money, so I use salt and ice. Another approach would be to use a solid state cooler and a bit of compressed air. Peltier Junction Thermo Electric Heat Pump One could refrigerate a jug of water for a few days then use it as a heat sink for the copper tube. That'd be inefficient but it might be cheaper because it would eliminate the trip to the store for bags of ice. Who needs a store? I make my own ice in a little stand-up freezer. In the summer, when I'm fishing, I make about 10 to 20 pounds of it every couple of days. It's a lot cheaper than running a compressor at the low efficiencies of a Hilsch tube...or buying ice. -- Ed Huntress I like it. --Winston |
#27
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
... On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:25:39 -0700, Winston wrote: wrote: On Mar 14, 4:54 pm, Ecnerwal wrote: If it were a one-day deal or the like, I'd agree with you, but I'd choose refrigeration in a heartbeat for any regular use. I'm intimately aware of the hassles of salt-ice refrigeration, and I'm quite certain that if I were making ice cream and sorbet as a busness rather than for myself, it would be an easy decision to spend the money for a refrigerated mixer - for home use it's a lot of money, so I use salt and ice. Another approach would be to use a solid state cooler and a bit of compressed air. Peltier Junction Thermo Electric Heat Pump One could refrigerate a jug of water for a few days then use it as a heat sink for the copper tube. That'd be inefficient but it might be cheaper because it would eliminate the trip to the store for bags of ice. Who needs a store? I make my own ice in a little stand-up freezer. In the summer, when I'm fishing, I make about 10 to 20 pounds of it every couple of days. Yeah, I took all the shelves out of the freezer in my shop fridge and put a great big tub under the little ice maker in there. It holds 30-40 pounds of ice if I remember to turn the tub around so the other side fills. In the summer when I am fishing a lot that is never a problem. LOL. It's a lot cheaper than running a compressor at the low efficiencies of a Hilsch tube...or buying ice. I would consider using the freezer part of the fridge to pre-cool a coil of air, but its on the other side of the shop. I actually considered putting my CNC computers inside a little apartment fridge in the shop. Maybe now is the time to get a second shop fridge. LOL. |
#28
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:58:30 -0700, Winston
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:25:39 -0700, wrote: wrote: On Mar 14, 4:54 pm, Ecnerwal wrote: If it were a one-day deal or the like, I'd agree with you, but I'd choose refrigeration in a heartbeat for any regular use. I'm intimately aware of the hassles of salt-ice refrigeration, and I'm quite certain that if I were making ice cream and sorbet as a busness rather than for myself, it would be an easy decision to spend the money for a refrigerated mixer - for home use it's a lot of money, so I use salt and ice. Another approach would be to use a solid state cooler and a bit of compressed air. Peltier Junction Thermo Electric Heat Pump One could refrigerate a jug of water for a few days then use it as a heat sink for the copper tube. That'd be inefficient but it might be cheaper because it would eliminate the trip to the store for bags of ice. Who needs a store? I make my own ice in a little stand-up freezer. In the summer, when I'm fishing, I make about 10 to 20 pounds of it every couple of days. Like this? http://www.compactappliance.com/Avan...ances-Freezers Yeah. Mine's a little bigger -- around 4 ft^3 -- but that one should do it. BTW, mine has run without a hitch for 32 years. Sears. Nifty! And probably a *lot* more energy efficient than the Peltier. Probably. (Remind me to tell you about the piece of research equipment, using semiconductor Peltier chips, that I built for Japan's MITI back in the '80s. Bridgeport, South Bend lathe, and ancient Walker Turner drill press, and the thing went to Japan's research agency for OTEC. g) So, locate a square 10 gallon bucket, submerge coil, fill with water and place it in the freezer. Figure out a pump to keep the drip leg dry and Bob's your Uncle. --Winston I'd be wary of doing it that way. The coil would develop a blanket of water around it and the conductivity from the ice would be problematic. If it's enough chilling, great. Otherwise, I'd break the ice into chunks and toss them in the bucket. -- Ed Huntress |
#29
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Mar 15, 7:16*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
Nifty! *And probably a *lot* more energy efficient than the Peltier. Ed Huntress I am sure it would be more efficent than a Peltier device, but I was thinking more about the space required. Dan |
#30
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Hey Ed.
You were going to tell me about the time you created a Peltier-based test jig destined for Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry to be used in Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion research back in the 80's. You used a Bridgy, a SB lathe and an ancient Walker Turner drill press. Is that right? --Winston --After the tsunami, they didn't need to hide it under Yucca Mountain. |
#31
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:05:08 -0700, Winston
wrote: Hey Ed. You were going to tell me about the time you created a Peltier-based test jig destined for Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry to be used in Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion research back in the 80's. You used a Bridgy, a SB lathe and an ancient Walker Turner drill press. Is that right? g Oh, yeah, I remember that... Okay, a long tail... I left AM to pursue a juicy contract with MITI (Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry), to produce reports on new materials applications. One of their big energy projects was OTEC (Ocean-Thermal Energy Conversion). I wrote a paper on corrosion-resistant materials for that project and then, in discussions with them, they expressed an interest in the new semiconductor thermoelectric cells, as possible candidates for electricity generation from low-temperature-differential, high-volume seawater. They actually use the Seebeck effect, but Peltier and Seebeck are like yin and yang. Anyway, they said they wanted some of the new cells from a company in Trenton, NJ, to test and evaluate. I drove down and bought a few dozen for them. When I delivered them they said they wanted to get started quickly because they had contracted with a company in Japan to build a refrigerator-size test module and it would take a couple of months to get it, and then another month to run tests. I had a design in my head for a four-cell test unit that I could make in one weekend. They said it wasn't enough cells. So I explained that you could change cells in it in less than five minutes, and they could easily test 20 cells in a day. They they could run some statistics, figure the variance and standard deviations from a few day's worth of testing, and have the results they wanted. So they threw some money at me and said go ahead. It was really simple. I took two 6-inch squares of 5/8" aluminum tooling plate (2024 -- it was all I had) and cut a serpentine groove in one side of each plate with a 1/2" end mill (mill -- I had to use a friend's Bridgeport). Then I turned some custom barb fittings from brass (turn). I drilled holes to clamp the two plates together, leaving room for the Seebeck cells, and then drilled and tapped holes for the barb fittings (drill). There were two barb fittings on each plate, at opposite ends of the serpentine groove. Through one plate you ran cold water. Through the other, warm water. I placed four cells between the plates, smeared them with conductive silicone grease, and clamped them together. Then I hooked aquarium hose to the barb fittings. One pair of leads from each cell projected out of the space between the plates. Ta-dah. About five hours of work, IIRC. You could measure the volume of water and the in-and-out temperatures from each plate, and the electrical output of each cell. You can see the implications -- a simple way to measure energy in/energy out at different absolute temperatures and temperature differentials (there was lots of insulation on the whole thing, in use) and to test the output variance among cells. Very, very simple. That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC. g -- Ed Huntress --Winston --After the tsunami, they didn't need to hide it under Yucca Mountain. |
#32
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:40:40 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:05:08 -0700, Winston wrote: Hey Ed. You were going to tell me about the time you created a Peltier-based test jig destined for Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry to be used in Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion research back in the 80's. You used a Bridgy, a SB lathe and an ancient Walker Turner drill press. Is that right? g Oh, yeah, I remember that... Okay, a long tail... I left AM to pursue a juicy contract with MITI (Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry), to produce reports on new materials applications. One of their big energy projects was OTEC (Ocean-Thermal Energy Conversion). I wrote a paper on corrosion-resistant materials for that project and then, in discussions with them, they expressed an interest in the new semiconductor thermoelectric cells, as possible candidates for electricity generation from low-temperature-differential, high-volume seawater. They actually use the Seebeck effect, but Peltier and Seebeck are like yin and yang. Anyway, they said they wanted some of the new cells from a company in Trenton, NJ, to test and evaluate. I drove down and bought a few dozen for them. When I delivered them they said they wanted to get started quickly because they had contracted with a company in Japan to build a refrigerator-size test module and it would take a couple of months to get it, and then another month to run tests. I had a design in my head for a four-cell test unit that I could make in one weekend. They said it wasn't enough cells. So I explained that you could change cells in it in less than five minutes, and they could easily test 20 cells in a day. They they could run some statistics, figure the variance and standard deviations from a few day's worth of testing, and have the results they wanted. So they threw some money at me and said go ahead. It was really simple. I took two 6-inch squares of 5/8" aluminum tooling plate (2024 -- it was all I had) and cut a serpentine groove in one side of each plate with a 1/2" end mill (mill -- I had to use a friend's Bridgeport). Then I turned some custom barb fittings from brass (turn). I drilled holes to clamp the two plates together, leaving room for the Seebeck cells, and then drilled and tapped holes for the barb fittings (drill). There were two barb fittings on each plate, at opposite ends of the serpentine groove. Through one plate you ran cold water. Through the other, warm water. I placed four cells between the plates, smeared them with conductive silicone grease, and clamped them together. Then I hooked aquarium hose to the barb fittings. One pair of leads from each cell projected out of the space between the plates. Ta-dah. About five hours of work, IIRC. You could measure the volume of water and the in-and-out temperatures from each plate, and the electrical output of each cell. You can see the implications -- a simple way to measure energy in/energy out at different absolute temperatures and temperature differentials (there was lots of insulation on the whole thing, in use) and to test the output variance among cells. Very, very simple. That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC. g Oh, I forgot the Plexiglass covers. The grooves were on the outside of the sandwich, and I covered them with 1/8" Plexi. That way you could see if a bubble was trapped in there that would screw up the output readings from one cell. -- Ed Huntress |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:40:40 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:05:08 -0700, wrote: Hey Ed. You were going to tell me about the time you created a Peltier-based test jig destined for Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry to be used in Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion research back in the 80's. You used a Bridgy, a SB lathe and an ancient Walker Turner drill press. Is that right? g Oh, yeah, I remember that... Okay, a long tail... I left AM to pursue a juicy contract with MITI (Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry), to produce reports on new materials applications. One of their big energy projects was OTEC (Ocean-Thermal Energy Conversion). I wrote a paper on corrosion-resistant materials for that project and then, in discussions with them, they expressed an interest in the new semiconductor thermoelectric cells, as possible candidates for electricity generation from low-temperature-differential, high-volume seawater. They actually use the Seebeck effect, but Peltier and Seebeck are like yin and yang. Anyway, they said they wanted some of the new cells from a company in Trenton, NJ, to test and evaluate. I drove down and bought a few dozen for them. When I delivered them they said they wanted to get started quickly because they had contracted with a company in Japan to build a refrigerator-size test module and it would take a couple of months to get it, and then another month to run tests. I had a design in my head for a four-cell test unit that I could make in one weekend. They said it wasn't enough cells. So I explained that you could change cells in it in less than five minutes, and they could easily test 20 cells in a day. They they could run some statistics, figure the variance and standard deviations from a few day's worth of testing, and have the results they wanted. So they threw some money at me and said go ahead. It was really simple. I took two 6-inch squares of 5/8" aluminum tooling plate (2024 -- it was all I had) and cut a serpentine groove in one side of each plate with a 1/2" end mill (mill -- I had to use a friend's Bridgeport). Then I turned some custom barb fittings from brass (turn). I drilled holes to clamp the two plates together, leaving room for the Seebeck cells, and then drilled and tapped holes for the barb fittings (drill). There were two barb fittings on each plate, at opposite ends of the serpentine groove. Through one plate you ran cold water. Through the other, warm water. I placed four cells between the plates, smeared them with conductive silicone grease, and clamped them together. I guess your clamping pattern assured that every cell had an equal share of hot and cold sink coupling. That apparently is really difficult to do. One of our own disassembled a shorted PWM control for an RC application and found that say 30% of his SMT MOSFETs barely made contact with the heat sink. (You could really see the problem by inspecting the 'sil pad' that was wedged between the heatsink and devices. Some FETS made quite a deep impression and some were not apparent at all.) Then I hooked aquarium hose to the barb fittings. One pair of leads from each cell projected out of the space between the plates. Ta-dah. About five hours of work, IIRC. You could measure the volume of water and the in-and-out temperatures from each plate, and the electrical output of each cell. You can see the implications -- a simple way to measure energy in/energy out at different absolute temperatures and temperature differentials (there was lots of insulation on the whole thing, in use) and to test the output variance among cells. Very, very simple. Sounds like Science, too. One could bolt on thermocouples for instance. That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC.g Ouch! That's like deciding not to buy a car because all you could test were Yugos. I love the TE concept but despair over their inefficiency. I suspect that Stirling motors would work the best in this application, no? ('Sounds like a great purpose for 'flare gas' at last.) Oh, I forgot the Plexiglass covers. The grooves were on the outside of the sandwich, and I covered them with 1/8" Plexi. That way you could see if a bubble was trapped in there that would screw up the output readings from one cell. Very nifty! That'd be a way to create a solar heat collector, too. I expect the plexi would have to be replaced with another aluminum sheet, though. --Winston |
#34
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:21:37 -0700, Winston
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:40:40 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:05:08 -0700, wrote: Hey Ed. You were going to tell me about the time you created a Peltier-based test jig destined for Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry to be used in Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion research back in the 80's. You used a Bridgy, a SB lathe and an ancient Walker Turner drill press. Is that right? g Oh, yeah, I remember that... Okay, a long tail... I left AM to pursue a juicy contract with MITI (Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry), to produce reports on new materials applications. One of their big energy projects was OTEC (Ocean-Thermal Energy Conversion). I wrote a paper on corrosion-resistant materials for that project and then, in discussions with them, they expressed an interest in the new semiconductor thermoelectric cells, as possible candidates for electricity generation from low-temperature-differential, high-volume seawater. They actually use the Seebeck effect, but Peltier and Seebeck are like yin and yang. Anyway, they said they wanted some of the new cells from a company in Trenton, NJ, to test and evaluate. I drove down and bought a few dozen for them. When I delivered them they said they wanted to get started quickly because they had contracted with a company in Japan to build a refrigerator-size test module and it would take a couple of months to get it, and then another month to run tests. I had a design in my head for a four-cell test unit that I could make in one weekend. They said it wasn't enough cells. So I explained that you could change cells in it in less than five minutes, and they could easily test 20 cells in a day. They they could run some statistics, figure the variance and standard deviations from a few day's worth of testing, and have the results they wanted. So they threw some money at me and said go ahead. It was really simple. I took two 6-inch squares of 5/8" aluminum tooling plate (2024 -- it was all I had) and cut a serpentine groove in one side of each plate with a 1/2" end mill (mill -- I had to use a friend's Bridgeport). Then I turned some custom barb fittings from brass (turn). I drilled holes to clamp the two plates together, leaving room for the Seebeck cells, and then drilled and tapped holes for the barb fittings (drill). There were two barb fittings on each plate, at opposite ends of the serpentine groove. Through one plate you ran cold water. Through the other, warm water. I placed four cells between the plates, smeared them with conductive silicone grease, and clamped them together. I guess your clamping pattern assured that every cell had an equal share of hot and cold sink coupling. It was an even pattern, and any difference would be apparent at the plates' edges, but it also counted on the grease. In any case, it worked. We moved one set of cells all around on the plates and the results were pretty consistent. That apparently is really difficult to do. One of our own disassembled a shorted PWM control for an RC application and found that say 30% of his SMT MOSFETs barely made contact with the heat sink. (You could really see the problem by inspecting the 'sil pad' that was wedged between the heatsink and devices. Some FETS made quite a deep impression and some were not apparent at all.) Then I hooked aquarium hose to the barb fittings. One pair of leads from each cell projected out of the space between the plates. Ta-dah. About five hours of work, IIRC. You could measure the volume of water and the in-and-out temperatures from each plate, and the electrical output of each cell. You can see the implications -- a simple way to measure energy in/energy out at different absolute temperatures and temperature differentials (there was lots of insulation on the whole thing, in use) and to test the output variance among cells. Very, very simple. Sounds like Science, too. One could bolt on thermocouples for instance. I attached 1N914 diodes for my own initial tests. They're very linear for temperature when back-biased within a certain voltage range -- MUCH better than thermistors. But the leads have to be short. Amplify the results with a 714 op amp and drive a small meter. +/- 1 deg. F over quite a long range. That was in 1981, remember. d8-) That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC.g Ouch! That's like deciding not to buy a car because all you could test were Yugos. g Their primary tests were with steam turbines using ammonia for a working fluid. I love the TE concept but despair over their inefficiency. I don't remember the values. I have a couple of them that I scrounged from an old camping cooler. It killed the battery in my van one night and I took it apart for revenge. I suspect that Stirling motors would work the best in this application, no? ('Sounds like a great purpose for 'flare gas' at last.) They'd likely be the most efficient energy coverter at those temperatures. But you're dealing with very small temp. differentials. It would take a *lot* of Stirlings to generate useful power. -- Ed Huntress Oh, I forgot the Plexiglass covers. The grooves were on the outside of the sandwich, and I covered them with 1/8" Plexi. That way you could see if a bubble was trapped in there that would screw up the output readings from one cell. Very nifty! That'd be a way to create a solar heat collector, too. I expect the plexi would have to be replaced with another aluminum sheet, though. --Winston |
#35
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:21:37 -0700, wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: (...) I guess your clamping pattern assured that every cell had an equal share of hot and cold sink coupling. It was an even pattern, and any difference would be apparent at the plates' edges, but it also counted on the grease. In any case, it worked. We moved one set of cells all around on the plates and the results were pretty consistent. You didn't have variation in solder thickness, as our friend did in his PWM MOSFETs, so that removed a significant variable. Very cool, and warm. (...) Sounds like Science, too. One could bolt on thermocouples for instance. I attached 1N914 diodes for my own initial tests. They're very linear for temperature when back-biased within a certain voltage range -- MUCH better than thermistors. But the leads have to be short. Amplify the results with a 714 op amp and drive a small meter. +/- 1 deg. F over quite a long range. That was in 1981, remember. d8-) 'Sounds like you had to 'level shift' and scale but you didn't have to 'linearize'. -2 mV per degree? Or is that the 'forward' and not 'reverse' tempco? That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC.g Ouch! That's like deciding not to buy a car because all you could test were Yugos. g Their primary tests were with steam turbines using ammonia for a working fluid. (Gasp!) Though I am sure it was perfectly safe. I love the TE concept but despair over their inefficiency. I don't remember the values. I have a couple of them that I scrounged from an old camping cooler. It killed the battery in my van one night and I took it apart for revenge. That fridge *needed* disassemblin'. I suspect that Stirling motors would work the best in this application, no? ('Sounds like a great purpose for 'flare gas' at last.) They'd likely be the most efficient energy coverter at those temperatures. But you're dealing with very small temp. differentials. It would take a *lot* of Stirlings to generate useful power. In OTEC, Stirling 'ballast' would be a Good Thing, (at last). --Winston |
#36
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:05:48 -0700, Winston
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:21:37 -0700, wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: (...) I guess your clamping pattern assured that every cell had an equal share of hot and cold sink coupling. It was an even pattern, and any difference would be apparent at the plates' edges, but it also counted on the grease. In any case, it worked. We moved one set of cells all around on the plates and the results were pretty consistent. You didn't have variation in solder thickness, as our friend did in his PWM MOSFETs, so that removed a significant variable. Very cool, and warm. These chips had flat-finished ceramic wafers on both sides. (...) Sounds like Science, too. One could bolt on thermocouples for instance. I attached 1N914 diodes for my own initial tests. They're very linear for temperature when back-biased within a certain voltage range -- MUCH better than thermistors. But the leads have to be short. Amplify the results with a 714 op amp and drive a small meter. +/- 1 deg. F over quite a long range. That was in 1981, remember. d8-) 'Sounds like you had to 'level shift' and scale but you didn't have to 'linearize'. -2 mV per degree? Or is that the 'forward' and not 'reverse' tempco? I really don't remember. I had used the same system years earlier for a temperature-tire gauge for SCCA races. Those little things respond in less than 2 seconds. That's the story. They loved it. And they decided not to invest in OTEC.g Ouch! That's like deciding not to buy a car because all you could test were Yugos. g Their primary tests were with steam turbines using ammonia for a working fluid. (Gasp!) Though I am sure it was perfectly safe. They were out at sea. The OTEC plants generally are old ships anchored in warm water, over fairly deep waters that are much cooler at the depths. I haven't heard anything about them for 20 years. The whole thing probably was a dud. I love the TE concept but despair over their inefficiency. I don't remember the values. I have a couple of them that I scrounged from an old camping cooler. It killed the battery in my van one night and I took it apart for revenge. That fridge *needed* disassemblin'. I suspect that Stirling motors would work the best in this application, no? ('Sounds like a great purpose for 'flare gas' at last.) They'd likely be the most efficient energy coverter at those temperatures. But you're dealing with very small temp. differentials. It would take a *lot* of Stirlings to generate useful power. In OTEC, Stirling 'ballast' would be a Good Thing, (at last). Speaking of Stirlings, have you heard anything about that multiple-Stirling solar array that PG&E was building a couple of years ago? I would have thought something would be reported about it by now. -- Ed Huntress --Winston |
#37
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ed Huntress wrote:
(...) Speaking of Stirlings, have you heard anything about that multiple-Stirling solar array that PG&E was building a couple of years ago? I would have thought something would be reported about it by now. http://thegreenwombat.com/2009/06/25...ith-nrgesolar/ I hadn't heard a thing, until you mentioned it just now. Uh oh.... http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...-falling-fast/ http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...-by-aes-solar/ --Winston |
#38
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ed Huntress wrote:
Speaking of Stirlings, have you heard anything about that multiple-Stirling solar array that PG&E was building a couple of years ago? I would have thought something would be reported about it by now. 'Wish they'd turn off that JLG lift. Those things are *noisy*. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEIQ2FVL_ys --Winston |
#39
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
Ed Huntress wrote:
Speaking of Stirlings, have you heard anything about that multiple-Stirling solar array that PG&E was building a couple of years ago? I would have thought something would be reported about it by now. These sound a *lot* better! (I wonder how they made them sound like strings and horns?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow0W4...eature=related :] --Winston |
#40
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Hilsch Tubes Revisited
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:10:23 -0700, Winston
wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: (...) Speaking of Stirlings, have you heard anything about that multiple-Stirling solar array that PG&E was building a couple of years ago? I would have thought something would be reported about it by now. http://thegreenwombat.com/2009/06/25...ith-nrgesolar/ I hadn't heard a thing, until you mentioned it just now. Uh oh.... http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...-falling-fast/ http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...-by-aes-solar/ --Winston Hmmm. That doesn't sound good. Oh, well, we're going to have all the oil we could possibly want, after the Republicans win the White House. And gas will be $2.50 a gallon! Free, if you show your Tea Party ID card! They'll probably drill in my back yard. I wonder who owns the mineral rights? d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
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