Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can (reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can (reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

First time I heard of PB failing. If you do get it off, give us a review of
what you think had it stuck so hard.

Steve

wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I already
said that....
phil k.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:47:44 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I already
said that....
phil k.


I have a couple of O/A torches. Do you think heating the screw will
change the hardness enough to be able to drill it?

It is in at an angle so only one edge is contacting the key. If I can
drill it, I think that thin edge might bend or break off when pulling
the hub off.

On Sep 24, 10:48*am, wrote:

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've used an

I would not be considering heat since it is pretty easy to get to the
set screw as as you say seals could make for an interesting search.

If you don't have a small carbide drill, then what about a small
masonry drill with carbide tips? Check the local hardware store as
ours has them down to 1/8" for drilling mirrors and tiles etc. Slow
and steady and wd40 as cutting fluid.

Dave

I'm just clutching straws. But.... heat on the setscrew, and
then use left handed drill bit from HF.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off before the
brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission can be
removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum is bolted to
the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or anything like
a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only pulling points
(5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty
good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've
used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is they don't
strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be looking for
nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can (reluctantly)
drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded with JB Blaster
for two
months. An additional consideration is this is one of only
two
surviving. Suggestions?

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:47:44 -0400, "Phil
Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come
off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake
drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I
thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They
are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG
torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you
can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay
on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I
already
said that....
phil k.


I have a couple of O/A torches. Do you think
heating the screw will
change the hardness enough to be able to drill
it?

It is in at an angle so only one edge is
contacting the key. If I can
drill it, I think that thin edge might bend or
break off when pulling
the hub off.

Heat will soften it. Try a smaller drill first,
stepping up in size.
It may be possible that the screw is in a shallow
hole in the key.
That would secure the key from working out in
service. Something
to consider anyway.
phil k.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:21:26 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:47:44 -0400, "Phil
Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come
off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake
drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I
thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They
are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG
torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you
can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay
on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I
already
said that....
phil k.


I have a couple of O/A torches. Do you think
heating the screw will
change the hardness enough to be able to drill
it?

It is in at an angle so only one edge is
contacting the key. If I can
drill it, I think that thin edge might bend or
break off when pulling
the hub off.

Heat will soften it. Try a smaller drill first,
stepping up in size.
It may be possible that the screw is in a shallow
hole in the key.
That would secure the key from working out in
service. Something
to consider anyway.
phil k.


Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

On 9/24/2011 6:42 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:21:26 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:47:44 -0400, "Phil
Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come
off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake
drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I
thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They
are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG
torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you
can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay
on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I
already
said that....
phil k.


I have a couple of O/A torches. Do you think
heating the screw will
change the hardness enough to be able to drill
it?

It is in at an angle so only one edge is
contacting the key. If I can
drill it, I think that thin edge might bend or
break off when pulling
the hub off.

Heat will soften it. Try a smaller drill first,
stepping up in size.
It may be possible that the screw is in a shallow
hole in the key.
That would secure the key from working out in
service. Something
to consider anyway.
phil k.


Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

if it were me, I'd use Kroil for a bunch of days, then I'd heat the hub
and when it is hot (but not glowing), I'd put a hex key in the set screw
and loosen it (or if it's not a hex key, use whatever fits it) - the
heat will expand the hub and tend to soften/break down the rust. If
that doesn't work, let it cool and repeat with more kroil, some time,
and try again

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of any
set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels, although I do
suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw would be harder
is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the surrounding
material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material while the carbon
was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron casting. I'm having a
problem with the idea that that happens, especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the screw.
Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the heat will have
also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead simple to drill
out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw should result in a clean
hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'm just clutching straws. But.... heat on the setscrew, and
then use left handed drill bit from HF.

--
That's pretty clever, coming from a mormon! :-)

Harold

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels, although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .
The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have used
this procedure a number of times and it works .

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .

--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."

I wouldn't worry much about the seals.. there are lots of replacement
styles, or even a greased leather washer (riding on a polished shaft) held
by a sheetmetal retainer will work effectively at keeping dirt out.
This is assuming that the lube is gear lube, not a hydro transmission (you
said 1964 machine).
You may still need torch heat to pull the hub, since the hub may not have
been removed for decades.

The primary disadvantage is needing to use a handheld drill, which can
attribute a lot to rapid drill point failure.. using a steady position and
forceful feed pressure are going to be to your advantage. The drum should be
secured so it can't rotate.
If you can clamp a bar or other steady support nearby, it would likely help
keep the proper approach angle and position.

In awkward positions and using a handheld drill, it can be worthwhile to
take some time to fabricate a mechanism to apply more feed force and steady
positioning using a lever to increase the feed force while offering a very
steady feed direction.

In this situation, even a Cole drill wouldn't be a simple solution due to
the drum size and the angle of the screw, but maybe something as simple as a
section of chain and a lever pressing on the back of the drill motor would
be appropriate.

The masonry drill suggestion could be a good solution, and for as cheap as
they are, grinding them to suit your needs should make them even more
effective for your needs.
I'd suggest using a proper steel cutting lubricant, not just anything that's
handy and slow RPM.

With a steady and forceful feed mechanism, using a pin and high RPM (no
lubricant), friction may generate enough heat in the screw to soften it, but
this method would likely be more appropriate for a workpiece on a drill
press.

An air chisel used as a hammer, hitting on (a hex or mating) driver, with
the hub supported by a steady hard backup like a jack stand on a cement
floor (not a block of wood on soil) may be enough to work the screw loose
while saturated with penetrant of ATF or miracle product.
Hex wrench material and some hardened drivers are likely to shatter, so, the
use of some fuel hose or other protective shroud would/should prevent shards
of metal from shooting out and injuring the operator.. and uncommon sense
should dictate the use of all the personal protection/safety devices/apparel
required for safe practices.
With a series of impacts the screw may dig into the key a bit more,
relieving the holding grip in the key slot, and a couple/few thousanths inch
of relief would be adequate to loosen the grip of ordinary square keystock,
so a stable puller could pull the hub/drum off.
Having the part removed from the axle will give you more options for dealing
with the screw if it hasn't loosened to the point of just winding it out (or
inward into the hole).

An annular cutter just larger than the screw diameter should effectively cut
away the softer iron without dealing with the hardened screw.
It looks as though you'd need to prepare a flat surface *like a counterbore
around the screw hole) for the cutter to start on, with a die grinder
(Dremel/Foredom etc).

I don't have a source handy, but these tiny holesaw-type cutters are
available for cutting thru spot welds (although not particularly deep
capacity) and other purposes.
Woodworkers use similar centerless cutters for cutting plugs and dowels, so
cutting cast iron with a quality cutting lubricant and slow speed may
accomplish the desired results.

--
WB
..........


wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can (reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

On 9/25/2011 7:53 AM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I wouldn't worry much about the seals.. there are lots of replacement
styles, or even a greased leather washer (riding on a polished shaft)
held by a sheetmetal retainer will work effectively at keeping dirt out.
This is assuming that the lube is gear lube, not a hydro transmission
(you said 1964 machine).
You may still need torch heat to pull the hub, since the hub may not
have been removed for decades.

The primary disadvantage is needing to use a handheld drill, which can
attribute a lot to rapid drill point failure.. using a steady position
and forceful feed pressure are going to be to your advantage. The drum
should be secured so it can't rotate.
If you can clamp a bar or other steady support nearby, it would likely
help keep the proper approach angle and position.

In awkward positions and using a handheld drill, it can be worthwhile to
take some time to fabricate a mechanism to apply more feed force and
steady positioning using a lever to increase the feed force while
offering a very steady feed direction.

In this situation, even a Cole drill wouldn't be a simple solution due
to the drum size and the angle of the screw, but maybe something as
simple as a section of chain and a lever pressing on the back of the
drill motor would be appropriate.

The masonry drill suggestion could be a good solution, and for as cheap
as they are, grinding them to suit your needs should make them even more
effective for your needs.
I'd suggest using a proper steel cutting lubricant, not just anything
that's handy and slow RPM.

With a steady and forceful feed mechanism, using a pin and high RPM (no
lubricant), friction may generate enough heat in the screw to soften it,
but this method would likely be more appropriate for a workpiece on a
drill press.

An air chisel used as a hammer, hitting on (a hex or mating) driver,
with the hub supported by a steady hard backup like a jack stand on a
cement floor (not a block of wood on soil) may be enough to work the
screw loose while saturated with penetrant of ATF or miracle product.
Hex wrench material and some hardened drivers are likely to shatter, so,
the use of some fuel hose or other protective shroud would/should
prevent shards of metal from shooting out and injuring the operator..
and uncommon sense should dictate the use of all the personal
protection/safety devices/apparel required for safe practices.
With a series of impacts the screw may dig into the key a bit more,
relieving the holding grip in the key slot, and a couple/few thousanths
inch of relief would be adequate to loosen the grip of ordinary square
keystock, so a stable puller could pull the hub/drum off.
Having the part removed from the axle will give you more options for
dealing with the screw if it hasn't loosened to the point of just
winding it out (or inward into the hole).

An annular cutter just larger than the screw diameter should effectively
cut away the softer iron without dealing with the hardened screw.
It looks as though you'd need to prepare a flat surface *like a
counterbore around the screw hole) for the cutter to start on, with a
die grinder (Dremel/Foredom etc).

I don't have a source handy, but these tiny holesaw-type cutters are
available for cutting thru spot welds (although not particularly deep
capacity) and other purposes.
Woodworkers use similar centerless cutters for cutting plugs and dowels,
so cutting cast iron with a quality cutting lubricant and slow speed may
accomplish the desired results.



If there is any way to get the correct bit in a hand operated impact
tool, it would allow a quick tighten and loosen movement on the set
screw. A tool like this:
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/p...s/?product=151

I know you can get a 3/8 socket drive Allen bit which can be driven by
the tool.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:19:31 -0700, Bill
wrote:

On 9/24/2011 6:42 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:21:26 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:47:44 -0400, "Phil
Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come
off
before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission
can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake
drum
is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or
anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only
pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I
thought
were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They
are
hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is
they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to
larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be
looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can
(reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded
with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is
one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

My first choice would be heating with a TIG
torch.
Concentrate on
the set screw and get it hot, red hot if you
can.
There is enough
mass of iron there to save the seal if you stay
on
the screw. After
it cools to about 300 to 400 deg apply 50/50 atf
and acetone. Make
no attempt to turn it till it completely cools
off! When the screw is
heated it will try to expand but it cannot and
when it cools it will
shrink to allow turning. HTH....
If you don't have TIG then try an oxy acet gas
welding torch,
single flame. Stay on the screw.... oh, I
already
said that....
phil k.


I have a couple of O/A torches. Do you think
heating the screw will
change the hardness enough to be able to drill
it?

It is in at an angle so only one edge is
contacting the key. If I can
drill it, I think that thin edge might bend or
break off when pulling
the hub off.

Heat will soften it. Try a smaller drill first,
stepping up in size.
It may be possible that the screw is in a shallow
hole in the key.
That would secure the key from working out in
service. Something
to consider anyway.
phil k.


Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

if it were me, I'd use Kroil for a bunch of days, then I'd heat the hub
and when it is hot (but not glowing), I'd put a hex key in the set screw
and loosen it (or if it's not a hex key, use whatever fits it) - the
heat will expand the hub and tend to soften/break down the rust. If
that doesn't work, let it cool and repeat with more kroil, some time,
and try again

Something Ive had recent experience with is a standard motorcycle impact
driver with an allen wrench socket. Used a moderate sized hammer after
Kroil and heating..and turned out the setscrew fairly easily, one tap at
a time.

So Ive now stocked up on allen and torx sockets and picked up another
couple motorcycle impact drivers and put them in my service trucks for
this sort of thing.

Old tech..but still works.

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:32:18 -0500, DanG wrote:





If there is any way to get the correct bit in a hand operated impact
tool, it would allow a quick tighten and loosen movement on the set
screw. A tool like this:
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/p...s/?product=151

I know you can get a 3/8 socket drive Allen bit which can be driven by
the tool.

That is what I've been using. Mine is a little more heavy duty; 1/2"
drive. Of course, I have to use a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer so I may be
losing some torque in the extra joint. I'm twisting the barrel in the
pre-loaded direction. The allen size is 5/32 so I can't get too heavy
handed.

I went out earlier and heated them; waited until they cooled and
smacked them again. No joy. They are now soaking in PB Blaster again.

If they are not loosened by towmorrow, I'll start drilling again.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930, "Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels, although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have used
this procedure a number of times and it works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:18:49 -0400, wrote:

Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.

Just checked on annealing A2 steel. You need to heat it to 1575 F and
slow cool in the furnace at a rate of 40 F per hour or less. That's
about 37 HOURS of cool-down.

Heating it in a casting and letting it cool WILL harden it.

Here's my strong vote for "heat and quench 3 times".
I am sure you got the right idea from all the previous posts on this
subject, but you need an OA torch with a really small tip, say a #1, in
order to heat just the set screw. Get it glowing and have a squirt bottle
of water handy. Once the set screw is glowing, squirt water on it until it
is cool to the touch. Do this 3 times. Then, gently remove the set screw.
A year or so ago I was faced with a couple dozen different kinds of
stuck/broken off bolts in an Onan genset and I asked for help everyplace I
could think of. The above was one of the suggestions I received late in the
game and hadn't tried it myself until a few weeks ago. A guy brought in a
front wheel drive car hub for bearing replacement. It had a sheet metal
guard held on by 3 10-32 (or metric equivalent) screws that had been there
since 1995. None of my normal stuff worked so I tried the above. It worked
3 out of 3 times. I am a convert.
But, you have to be able to really focus the heat, I think.
Note: one of the reasons you can heat the screw alone is that the
rust/corrosion between the screw and the hub acts as an insulator so the
screw heats faster than the hub (the hub having more mass). But, if you use
too broad a flame, or a torch with a much lower flame temperature(think
hardware store propane torch) the set screw will take longer to get glowing
and the hub will be closer behind in temperature, so the set screw won't be
crushing the rust as much.

See:
http://www.spaco.org/MachineShop/StuckFasteners.html
if you are interested in a range of solutions to this kind of problem.
Long time lurkers:
I haven't added to this page since Jan 23, 2010, when I posted its existence
here.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930, "Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels, although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have used
this procedure a number of times and it works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered stainless---which, to my knowledge, is not the
screw in question. I would fully expect that most socket sets are made of
high carbon steel (which is, in fact, an *alloy*), which readily anneals.
Could be wrong, but I can't find anything online to support the notion that
they aren't.

I welcome anything you can provide to support your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 12:48:04 -0500, wrote:

Here is what I'm working on.

http://s1123.photobucket.com/albums/...t=IMG_2610.jpg

1964 garden tractor. The wheel hub must come off before the brake
linkage can be removed before the transmission can be removed, etc.

The hub is cast about 3/8 thick. The brake drum is bolted to the back
of it so there is no place to hook a puller or anything like a bearing
separater. The lug bolt holes are the only pulling points (5 on
4.5"). Problem is the 5/16 set screw.

I've tried drilling them out with what I thought were pretty good
bits. I'm barely knocking the rust off. They are hard. I've used an
allen impact driver to no avail. (good part is they don't strip out)
There is enough meat to redrill and tap to larger size.

I can apply limited heat but don't want to be looking for nonexistant
axle seals.

Once the set screw problem is solved, I can (reluctantly) drill and
tap pulling holes closer to the 1" axle.

This photo looks dry but it has been flooded with JB Blaster for two
months. An additional consideration is this is one of only two
surviving. Suggestions?

Update.
After heating, more PB, let it cool, still won't budge. 1/4" masonry
bit took off just a little bit. Used a 3/16 punch in the socket a few
licks. The allen wrench still fit perfectly but it won't move even a
little.

The carbide bits I'm finding are for masonry, hammer drills or
spearpoint for glass and tile.

Maybe I'll continue heating and removing a little at a time

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930, "Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is, in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

I welcome anything you can provide to support your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316 respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930, "Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is, in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

I welcome anything you can provide to support your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316 respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

That's what I'm talking about. And I've run across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David
Billington
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930,
"Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with
heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble
believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from
precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that,
the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating
only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink
and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort
of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea
that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull
red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out
or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has
formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor
diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads
entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw
harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are
either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening
steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They
are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them
out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly
when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw
is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it
works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron
pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a
looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also
good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor
diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw
the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered
stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully
expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is,
in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I
can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

I welcome anything you can provide to support
your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316
respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering
if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention
of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

That's what I'm talking about. And I've run
across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a
normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low
speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty
hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the
drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are
DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

The set screw of interest in this thread is
obviously not stainless! It is
rusted in place. Stainless set screws are _not_
common, they will
work harden if touched with a dull cutter. As far
as annealing a high
carbon set screw it definately can be done! I've
used quite a few
to make stripped thread repairs. I line them up on
the bench vise
on wire butts and heat them with a propane torch
and let them cool
naturally. They will then be capable of machining.
No problem.
They can be re-hardened after too..........if you
want.....
Grader blades are a manganese alloy steel, work
hardening, but
can also be annealed, if treated properly. Why
would set screws
be made of a manganese alloy? I don't think
so.....;)}

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:47:54 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David
Billington
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930,
"Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with
heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble
believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from
precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that,
the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating
only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink
and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort
of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea
that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull
red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out
or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has
formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor
diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads
entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw
harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are
either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening
steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They
are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them
out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly
when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw
is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it
works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron
pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a
looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also
good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor
diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw
the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered
stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully
expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is,
in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I
can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

I welcome anything you can provide to support
your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316
respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering
if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention
of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

That's what I'm talking about. And I've run
across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a
normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low
speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty
hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the
drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are
DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

The set screw of interest in this thread is
obviously not stainless! It is
rusted in place. Stainless set screws are _not_
common, they will
work harden if touched with a dull cutter. As far
as annealing a high
carbon set screw it definately can be done! I've
used quite a few
to make stripped thread repairs. I line them up on
the bench vise
on wire butts and heat them with a propane torch
and let them cool
naturally. They will then be capable of machining.
No problem.
They can be re-hardened after too..........if you
want.....
Grader blades are a manganese alloy steel, work
hardening, but
can also be annealed, if treated properly. Why
would set screws
be made of a manganese alloy? I don't think
so.....;)}


I only understand about half what you guys are discussing...but still
enjoyable and educational.

One other fact may have some bearing on this. The company that
manufactured the tractor was the developer and manufacturer of the
Shop Smith line.

They used the best features and parts of other tractor makers. I have
a parts cross reference. With their machine tool connection, they
could have used exotic set screws or already had them on hand.
Financial shenanigans and law suits caused production to end after 7
years.

Since they are so hard, what are my chances of chipping them out?

wrote in message

Since they are so hard, what are my
chances of chipping them out?


Might be a job for the "good 'ol flame wrench" !
What size screw?

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:50:22 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:47:54 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David
Billington
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930,
"Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with
heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble
believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from
precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that,
the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating
only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink
and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort
of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea
that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull
red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out
or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has
formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor
diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads
entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw
harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are
either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening
steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They
are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them
out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly
when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw
is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it
works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron
pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a
looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also
good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor
diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw
the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered
stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully
expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is,
in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I
can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

I welcome anything you can provide to support
your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316
respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering
if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention
of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

That's what I'm talking about. And I've run
across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a
normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low
speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty
hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the
drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are
DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

The set screw of interest in this thread is
obviously not stainless! It is
rusted in place. Stainless set screws are _not_
common, they will
work harden if touched with a dull cutter. As far
as annealing a high
carbon set screw it definately can be done! I've
used quite a few
to make stripped thread repairs. I line them up on
the bench vise
on wire butts and heat them with a propane torch
and let them cool
naturally. They will then be capable of machining.
No problem.
They can be re-hardened after too..........if you
want.....
Grader blades are a manganese alloy steel, work
hardening, but
can also be annealed, if treated properly. Why
would set screws
be made of a manganese alloy? I don't think
so.....;)}


I only understand about half what you guys are discussing...but still
enjoyable and educational.

One other fact may have some bearing on this. The company that
manufactured the tractor was the developer and manufacturer of the
Shop Smith line.

They used the best features and parts of other tractor makers. I have
a parts cross reference. With their machine tool connection, they
could have used exotic set screws or already had them on hand.
Financial shenanigans and law suits caused production to end after 7
years.

Since they are so hard, what are my chances of chipping them out?
3 letters - E D M
It is the only SURE way of removing it without damaging something
else.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:47:54 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David
Billington
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930,
"Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--
Many set screws actually harden with
heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble
believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from
precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that,
the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating
only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink
and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort
of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea
that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull
red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out
or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has
formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor
diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads
entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold


Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw
harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are
either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening
steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They
are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them
out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly
when jammed into a
casting.
The advice regarding spot heating the screw
is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it
works .
Works particularly well in maleable iron
pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a
looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also
good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor
diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw
the screw out for you .


Both A2 and A4 are considered
stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully
expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is,
in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I
can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.

No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

I welcome anything you can provide to support
your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold
I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316
respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering
if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention
of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html

That's what I'm talking about. And I've run
across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a
normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low
speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty
hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the
drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are
DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

The set screw of interest in this thread is
obviously not stainless! It is
rusted in place. Stainless set screws are _not_
common, they will
work harden if touched with a dull cutter. As far
as annealing a high
carbon set screw it definately can be done! I've
used quite a few
to make stripped thread repairs. I line them up on
the bench vise
on wire butts and heat them with a propane torch
and let them cool
naturally. They will then be capable of machining.
No problem.
They can be re-hardened after too..........if you
want.....
Grader blades are a manganese alloy steel, work
hardening, but
can also be annealed, if treated properly. Why
would set screws
be made of a manganese alloy? I don't think
so.....;)}


You could likely anneal it if it was out of the casting - but it will
likely cool too quickly in the casting.

wrote in message
...
snip---

You could likely anneal it if it was out of the casting - but it will
likely cool too quickly in the casting.

It's worth a try! Spot heat, using a tiny torch tip, then keep applying
heat intermittently, slowing the cooling. If there's seals near that need
protecting, a wet rap wrapped around the shaft near the seal will do
wonders. Likely not an issue, anyway, and there's countless numbers of
seals on the market, one of which may work perfectly well, or can be adapted
to work just as well. In spite of the claims to the contrary, I have no
expectation that heating the screw won't anneal it enough to permit
drilling.

I also endorse the EDM idea, but that may not be a choice.

Someone mentioned the use of a left hand drill. Great idea. Heat first,
then try drilling. Fair chance the drill will bite and remove the screw.
Stranger things have happened. If it works, it will happen so fast you
won't believe your eyes.

Heating in and of itself will produce results. If you can heat the screw
hot enough to degrade the rust, most of the problems will have been solved.

Harold

wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:16:20 +0100, David Billington
wrote:


Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:43:04 +0930, "Kevin(Bluey)"
wrote:


On 9/25/2011 6:00 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

wrote in message
...
snip--

Many set screws actually harden with heating - from my experience

I'm having more than a little trouble believing that. I'm not aware of
any set screws being made from precipitation hardening steels,
although
I do suppose they could be. Beyond that, the only way the screw
would be
harder is if it was heated rapidly, heating only the screw, so the
surrounding material behaved as a heat sink and quenched the material
while the carbon was still converted. Sort of like a chilled iron
casting. I'm having a problem with the idea that that happens,
especially when heating by torch.

I'd suggest that a fast heating to a dull red heat would anneal the
screw. Once annealed, whether it backs out or not (it may, for the
heat
will have also disrupted the rust that has formed), it will be dead
simple to drill out. Drilling to the minor diameter of the screw
should
result in a clean hole with threads entrapped, like half a heli-coil.

Harold

Im with you Harold . Never had a set screw harden when heated .

The vast majority of cup end set screws are either A2 or A4 steel -
which is by definition an air hardening steel - and WILL harden when
heated. Just like most exhaust studs. They are hard enough to start
with, but if you heat them trying to get them out they end up as hard
as glass. Very hard to anneal, particularly when jammed into a
casting.

The advice regarding spot heating the screw is good advice , I have
used
this procedure a number of times and it works .

Works particularly well in maleable iron pullies etc, as it enlarges
(in) the hole, then shrinks back, leaving a looser fit

Soaking in a good penetrating agent is also good , in conjuction with
the spot heating

If you can get a left hand drill the minor diameter of the screw thread
, some times the drill will grab and screw the screw out for you .

Both A2 and A4 are considered stainless---which, to my knowledge, is
not the screw in question. I would fully expect that most socket
sets are made of high carbon steel (which is, in fact, an *alloy*),
which readily anneals. Could be wrong, but I can't find anything
online to support the notion that they aren't.


No, A2s and A4s are stainless.

Maybe in Canada but in the UK A2 and A4 are commonly used for stainless
steel fasteners with no s on the end. The UK designation for the air
hardening tool steel was BA2 according to my link.

I welcome anything you can provide to support your claim that they are
precipitation hardening.

Harold

I know of A2 and A4, IIRC 304 and 316 respectively so wouldn't be
hardenable by heat treatment but I was wondering if he was referring to
A2 air hardening tool steel. Not seen a mention of A4 tool steel.
http://www.westyorkssteel.com/tool_s...fications.html


That's what I'm talking about. And I've run across MANY setscrews over
the decades that could barely be touched by a normal drill, and could
NOT be touched by ANY drill after heating.

Before being heated, a good cobalt drill, at low speed, in a positive
drive drill press, will handle most - but pretty hard to mount the
garden tractor in the drill-press vice. If the drill spins instead of
biting, the heat hardens the screw and you are DONE.

Same kind of steel as used on grader blades.

On Sep 28, 3:11*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
wrote in message

...
snip---

You could likely anneal it if it was out of the casting - but it will
likely cool too quickly in the casting.

It's worth a try! *Spot heat, using a tiny torch tip, then keep applying
heat intermittently, slowing the cooling. *If there's seals near that need
protecting, a wet rap wrapped around the shaft near the seal will do
wonders. * Likely not an issue, anyway, and there's countless numbers of
seals on the market, one of which may work perfectly well, or can be adapted
to work just as well. * In spite of the claims to the contrary, I have no
expectation that heating the screw won't anneal it enough to permit
drilling.

I also endorse the EDM idea, but that may not be a choice.

Someone mentioned the use of a left hand drill. *Great idea. * Heat first,
then try drilling. Fair chance the drill will bite and remove the screw.
Stranger things have happened. * If it works, it will happen so fast you
won't believe your eyes.

Heating in and of itself will produce results. *If you can heat the screw
hot enough to degrade the rust, most of the problems will have been solved.

Harold

I've solved a lot of stuck fastener problems just by using a propane
torch and a can of LPS 1. Heat, spray, heat, spray, repeat as
needed. Sometimes it takes more than just a few go-arounds to get
things loosened up. In this case, I'd be heating the hole area, not
the fastener. Doesn't have to be red heat, just enough to expand
things. Then there was the nazi superbolt in the VW shock mount,
drilled that one out until it shucked the flutes off the drill, then
spent three days with a mini-die grinder and a handful of pink
aluminum oxide points grinding it out to the hole threads and picked
the bits out with a dental pick. I've had the most success with left-
hand bits on wood screws. Rusted bolts usually will drill or will
break the drill bit, but don't move until they're cored out.

Stan

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:02:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



I've solved a lot of stuck fastener problems just by using a propane
torch and a can of LPS 1. Heat, spray, heat, spray, repeat as
needed. Sometimes it takes more than just a few go-arounds to get
things loosened up. In this case, I'd be heating the hole area, not
the fastener. Doesn't have to be red heat, just enough to expand
things. Then there was the nazi superbolt in the VW shock mount,
drilled that one out until it shucked the flutes off the drill, then
spent three days with a mini-die grinder and a handful of pink
aluminum oxide points grinding it out to the hole threads and picked
the bits out with a dental pick. I've had the most success with left-
hand bits on wood screws. Rusted bolts usually will drill or will
break the drill bit, but don't move until they're cored out.

Stan

I hadn't thought of the die grinder solution. I may try that before
the chip-it-out exercise.

Thanks

If you are using a handheld drill and not getting any chips out, your next
best bet would be to (borrow one if you don't have one) use a benchtop drill
press set up on blocks, at the correct angle so the quill downfeed would be
constant and steady.

My box-store Ryobi ~10" benchtop could be set up in place, and definitely
has enough power to drill those screws out.

Those little 5-speed $50 drill presses probably aren't any better than (or
even as good as) a decent hand drill. A friend suggested I could use his
5-speed recently while doing some fabricating at his place, and it was
essentially powerless, with a sharp 3/16" drill in mild steel.

A quality cobalt drill or masonry carbide (and a good cutting lubricant)
should cut the screws with a steady, constant feed, which is often difficult
to do with a handheld drill.

--
WB
..........


wrote in message
...

That is what I've been using. Mine is a little more heavy duty; 1/2"
drive. Of course, I have to use a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer so I may be
losing some torque in the extra joint. I'm twisting the barrel in the
pre-loaded direction. The allen size is 5/32 so I can't get too heavy
handed.

I went out earlier and heated them; waited until they cooled and
smacked them again. No joy. They are now soaking in PB Blaster again.

If they are not loosened by towmorrow, I'll start drilling again.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:38:46 -0500
wrote:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:02:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
snip
spent three days with a mini-die grinder and a handful of pink
aluminum oxide points grinding it out to the hole threads and picked
the bits out with a dental pick. I've had the most success with left-
hand bits on wood screws. Rusted bolts usually will drill or will
break the drill bit, but don't move until they're cored out.

Stan

I hadn't thought of the die grinder solution. I may try that before
the chip-it-out exercise.

Thanks

I used a Dremel #9911 Tungsten Carbide Bit - Diameter 1/8" to bore
through a snapped off "easy-out" successfully. It was slow, hard going
and a lot of sparks flew... But it gouged it out and amazingly
(to me anyway) didn't look any worse for wear afterwards. This page
(don't know anything about the supplier, just for reference) shows some
of the bits offered by Dremel:

http://www.mytoolstore.com/dremel/tungcrbi.html

It looks like you have a better view of things too, mine was in an area
where I couldn't see down the hole for more than a 1/4 inch or so. Had
to listen and feel my way around grinding it out...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 9/28/2011 2:47, Phil Kangas wrote:
The set screw of interest in this thread is
obviously not stainless! It is
rusted in place.

Stainless will also rust, just a different "rust"..
Happens especially easily when the body is normal
steel and a stainless fastener touches the steel body.
Anybody using same tools for normal steel and stainless
knows how easy it is to get rust spots to stainless..

Still, propably a normal carbon steel setscrew..

One neat drilling solution is to used the normally
ground drills that are made like masonry drills - with
a tungsten carbide (or such) insert.. These will
drill quite hard materials..

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:39:54 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

If you are using a handheld drill and not getting any chips out, your next
best bet would be to (borrow one if you don't have one) use a benchtop drill
press set up on blocks, at the correct angle so the quill downfeed would be
constant and steady.

My box-store Ryobi ~10" benchtop could be set up in place, and definitely
has enough power to drill those screws out.

Those little 5-speed $50 drill presses probably aren't any better than (or
even as good as) a decent hand drill. A friend suggested I could use his
5-speed recently while doing some fabricating at his place, and it was
essentially powerless, with a sharp 3/16" drill in mild steel.

A quality cobalt drill or masonry carbide (and a good cutting lubricant)
should cut the screws with a steady, constant feed, which is often difficult
to do with a handheld drill
I have a big drill press but I don't see any way this is happening.
the "piece" I'm working on is 4' long, the axle is 3' wide. The whole
assembly weighs over 200#. The set screw is at about a 45 degree
angle.

I'm using a 1/2" drill at slow speed. I'm able to really lean into it
so I think the pressure is there, at least as much as should be put on
1/8 and 3/16 bits.

wrote:
If you are using a handheld drill and not getting any chips out, your next
best bet would be to (borrow one if you don't have one) use a benchtop
drill
press set up on blocks, at the correct angle so the quill downfeed would be
constant and steady.

My box-store Ryobi ~10" benchtop could be set up in place, and definitely
has enough power to drill those screws out.

A quality cobalt drill or masonry carbide (and a good cutting lubricant)
should cut the screws with a steady, constant feed, which is often
difficult
to do with a handheld drill.


wrote in message
I have a big drill press but I don't see any way this is happening.
the "piece" I'm working on is 4' long, the axle is 3' wide. The whole
assembly weighs over 200#. The set screw is at about a 45 degree
angle.

I'm using a 1/2" drill at slow speed. I'm able to really lean into it
so I think the pressure is there, at least as much as should be put on
1/8 and 3/16 bits.


I understood the size/scale of the workpiece when it was described as a
garden tractor.

My suggestion was to take a manageable size drill press to the tractor, and
mounting/supporting it in a way that it could feed a drill steadily into the
screw at the proper angle.

The same could also be accomplished with a Cole drill and some metal parts
and clamps.
Benchtop drill presses are generally more common than Cole drills. You
could, possibly, borrow either type.

With either method, the drill feed could be from the top, bottom or
sideways, whichever is more convenient.
The mechanical advantage of a steady quill feed will create chips.

--
WB
..........