I've got a situation where I have to drill 3 holes, then accurately
cut out a slot in the lid of a small cookie tin. I made the fixture pictured
here to do the deed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steambo...57624880649814
--The trick I came up with: I layed the thing out with a measuring
tape, making certain that the center of the round thing was a little over
some nice round numbers in X and Y, relative to a reference corner. Once
everything was drilled, tapped and fastened in place I put the fixture in
the vise with a part mounted. Using a dial indicator that touched the outer
rim I found the exact center of the part. I reset my DRO to 0,0 here and
then went looking for the edge of the fixture with an edge finder. I marked
down the numbers, then milled those two edges to 'round out' the distances.
Next time I use the fixture I know the center of the round thing is exactly
6" in X and 2" in Y, instead of some weird number I'd never remember.
--Still and all I'm not real happy with the fixture and I'd be
interested to know what others may have done in similar situations. I didn't
want to go overboard on design since I'm only doing maybe 50 of these and
the 'customer' is me. ;-)

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Steel, Stainless, Titanium:
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Guaranteed Uncertified Welding!
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"steamer" wrote in message
...
...
--Still and all I'm not real happy with the fixture and I'd be
interested to know what others may have done in similar situations. I
didn't
want to go overboard on design since I'm only doing maybe 50 of these and
the 'customer' is me. ;-)
"Steamboat Ed" Haas

Holtzapffel's suggestion for clamping oddly shaped artsy workpieces was a
custom wooden 'collet' closed by an external steel ring. The lids could use
an internal plug for support. I make such things out of either glued plywood
scraps or a chunk of firewood, depending on grain requirements. If it's
stationary you could close it with a Vise Grip chain wrench.

The wood doesn't scar the finish or damage cutters. Scrap credit cards like
AARP sends are good for padding finished or uneven work in a milling vise
too.

jsw

"steamer" wrote in message
...
I've got a situation where I have to drill 3 holes, then accurately
cut out a slot in the lid of a small cookie tin. I made the fixture pictured
here to do the deed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steambo...57624880649814
--The trick I came up with: I layed the thing out with a measuring
tape, making certain that the center of the round thing was a little over
some nice round numbers in X and Y, relative to a reference corner. Once
everything was drilled, tapped and fastened in place I put the fixture in
the vise with a part mounted. Using a dial indicator that touched the outer
rim I found the exact center of the part. I reset my DRO to 0,0 here and
then went looking for the edge of the fixture with an edge finder. I marked
down the numbers, then milled those two edges to 'round out' the distances.
Next time I use the fixture I know the center of the round thing is exactly
6" in X and 2" in Y, instead of some weird number I'd never remember.
--Still and all I'm not real happy with the fixture and I'd be
interested to know what others may have done in similar situations. I didn't
want to go overboard on design since I'm only doing maybe 50 of these and
the 'customer' is me. ;-)

For one-off's I've used plaster of paris to make a holding jig. It's readily
removed with just water. In your case could you spray a part with mold
release and fill it with bondo, or similar, to make the jig?
Art

It seems as though the fixture clamps are toe-type pieces that are actually
clamping down on the rolled edge of the lid/workpiece.

Having a groove in the fixture baseplate for the rolled edge to partially
rest in, might be one feature that could be added fairly easily.

I prefer to have some backing material inside thinwall objects or materials
(typically plastic or sheetmetal workpieces), such as a plywood disk or ring
(pvc pipe section) placed inside the lid to give more wall support.

Wood backup material may be acceptable for 50 pieces, but I'm not familiar
with how hardwood or plywood reacts to flood lubricant/coolant.

Radiused internal aluminum pieces, secured to the baseplate would likely be
better for a longer production run, mounted in a way as to not have the
cutting tool run into a hardened screw head.

What function are the circuit boards when they're finished?

--
WB
..........


"steamer" wrote in message
...
I've got a situation where I have to drill 3 holes, then accurately
cut out a slot in the lid of a small cookie tin. I made the fixture
pictured
here to do the deed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steambo...57624880649814
--The trick I came up with: I layed the thing out with a measuring
tape, making certain that the center of the round thing was a little over
some nice round numbers in X and Y, relative to a reference corner. Once
everything was drilled, tapped and fastened in place I put the fixture in
the vise with a part mounted. Using a dial indicator that touched the
outer
rim I found the exact center of the part. I reset my DRO to 0,0 here and
then went looking for the edge of the fixture with an edge finder. I
marked
down the numbers, then milled those two edges to 'round out' the
distances.
Next time I use the fixture I know the center of the round thing is
exactly
6" in X and 2" in Y, instead of some weird number I'd never remember.
--Still and all I'm not real happy with the fixture and I'd be
interested to know what others may have done in similar situations. I
didn't
want to go overboard on design since I'm only doing maybe 50 of these and
the 'customer' is me. ;-)

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Steel, Stainless, Titanium:
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Guaranteed Uncertified Welding!
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Wild_Bill wrote:
It seems as though the fixture clamps are toe-type pieces that are actually
clamping down on the rolled edge of the lid/workpiece.
--Yes.

Wood backup material may be acceptable for 50 pieces, but I'm not familiar
with how hardwood or plywood reacts to flood lubricant/coolant.
--Not too badly with a coating of Bondo and mold release first.

Radiused internal aluminum pieces, secured to the baseplate would likely be
better for a longer production run, mounted in a way as to not have the
cutting tool run into a hardened screw head.
--Ack; think I'll go with wood for this short a run.

What function are the circuit boards when they're finished?
--Something I couldn't find commercially so am making instead: a low
speed tachometer. Most tachs read in thousands with resolution in hundreds.
This reads resolution of 1 to 5 rpm. I made it for my boat's steam engine. I
can count with a stopwatch up to about 300 but beyond that I'm stuck. Engine
runs sweetest a little over 400rpm so I need a tach to do it right. The
trouble with the bicycle variety is the crappy display; mine's got a nice,
bright readable display that I can read at night and in sunlight.




--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Steel, Stainless, Titanium:
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Guaranteed Uncertified Welding!
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:31:00 -0700, "Artemus"
wrote:


"steamer" wrote in message
...
I've got a situation where I have to drill 3 holes, then accurately
cut out a slot in the lid of a small cookie tin. I made the fixture pictured
here to do the deed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steambo...57624880649814
--The trick I came up with: I layed the thing out with a measuring
tape, making certain that the center of the round thing was a little over
some nice round numbers in X and Y, relative to a reference corner. Once
everything was drilled, tapped and fastened in place I put the fixture in
the vise with a part mounted. Using a dial indicator that touched the outer
rim I found the exact center of the part. I reset my DRO to 0,0 here and
then went looking for the edge of the fixture with an edge finder. I marked
down the numbers, then milled those two edges to 'round out' the distances.
Next time I use the fixture I know the center of the round thing is exactly
6" in X and 2" in Y, instead of some weird number I'd never remember.
--Still and all I'm not real happy with the fixture and I'd be
interested to know what others may have done in similar situations. I didn't
want to go overboard on design since I'm only doing maybe 50 of these and
the 'customer' is me. ;-)

For one-off's I've used plaster of paris to make a holding jig. It's readily
removed with just water. In your case could you spray a part with mold
release and fill it with bondo, or similar, to make the jig?
Art


You must be thinking of dry wall compound cause plaster of paris is
permanent, been playing with the stuff for the last couple of weeks.
Took awhile to figure out the correct mix again, probably have it
written down somewhere. Plus BTW, water first, drill, then powder!

Wood works for the OP, I milled a perpendicular round hole through
thin walled round tubing once. For those lids, I'd made a jig to have
it centered and clamp it from the top. Like a plywood disk screwed to
a rectangle of plywood that is left bolted to the table then one clamp
to hold it down the work.

I'm getting to the point of being afraid to throw anything away cause
there are so many alternate uses for things. Like yesterday I was
using one of those rubber spatula's for an extended finger to thread
in a bolt that I could only reach with one finger. Might as well toss
that one in here. Yesterday I was cutting up maple slabs and the
cheapy 2X3 table saw stopped while cutting two at a time. The motor is
bolted onto a approx. 2" X 3" steel box. Found the clip broke that
holds onto the brush holder. Tryed to duplicate the clip and gave up
and soldered the wrong wire to right holder. Got it all together and
as I plugged it in I said "What could possibly go wrong?" and it spun
the wrong direction. Took it apart again, plus had to drill out the
housing to punch out the blind bearing, and instead of re-soldering to
the other brush holder I turned the stator 180 degrees. Took about 3-4
hours, but It has lots of life left now.


SW

On 2011-09-02, Sunworshipper SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote:

[ ... ]

I'm getting to the point of being afraid to throw anything away cause
there are so many alternate uses for things. Like yesterday I was
using one of those rubber spatula's for an extended finger to thread
in a bolt that I could only reach with one finger.

Hmm ... in buying used electronic service toolkits, I wound up
with a set of spring-loaded thimbles with spring-loaded clips for various
sized hex nuts -- which is great for that particular task. (I have,
before, used double-sided tape to hold the nut to the fingertip.)

As for screws -- I've got both straight and Phillips screw
starters which have a twist-lock. You pushed the screw onto the end of
the driver and part of it rotates to lock the screw in place. For the
straight blade, it is the middle which rotates relative to the rest of
the blade. For the Phillips, one cross-blade rotates relative to the
other,a nd both have gripping surfaces. Obviously, these are useless
for applying much torque, but great for starting screws -- or for
picking screws out of recesses -- cock the driver, move it down onto the
screw head, and press. When it goes "snap" pull out screw and driver.

I haven't seen those in stores for years -- but presumably
someone still makes them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sep 3, 5:22*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2011-09-02, Sunworshipper SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote:

* * * * [ ... ]

I'm getting to the point of being afraid to throw anything away cause
there are so many alternate uses for things. Like yesterday I was
using one of those rubber spatula's for an extended finger to thread
in a bolt that I could only reach with one finger.

* * * * Hmm ... in buying used electronic service toolkits, I wound up
with a set of spring-loaded thimbles with spring-loaded clips for various
sized hex nuts -- which is great for that particular task. *(I have,
before, used double-sided tape to hold the nut to the fingertip.) *

* * * * As for screws -- I've got both straight and Phillips screw
starters which have a twist-lock. *You pushed the screw onto the end of
the driver and part of it rotates to lock the screw in place. *For the
straight blade, it is the middle which rotates relative to the rest of
the blade. *For the Phillips, one cross-blade rotates relative to the
other,a nd both have gripping surfaces. *Obviously, these are useless
for applying much torque, but great for starting screws -- or for
picking screws out of recesses -- cock the driver, move it down onto the
screw head, and press. *When it goes "snap" pull out screw and driver.

* * * * I haven't seen those in stores for years -- but presumably
someone still makes them.

* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.

--
Used to be a staple item at the radio/TV supply places I used to go
to. Another business gone the way of the buggy whip. Had another sort
that worked better, a variation on the wedge driver for slotted
screws, where there's two right-angled petals that get expanded by a
plunger. That one really locked the Phillips and crosspoints in
place. I've see a smaller version at the local model railroad supply
where they've got lots of small specialty stuff like that.

Anymore, you can get really tiny rare earth magnets which solves the
problem of pulling trim screws out of deep holes. Useless for
nonmagnetic stainless and nylon numbers, but those are rarely in the
bottom of holes that deep. I use small disk magnets in sockets and
nutdrivers for starting nuts in the same circumstances. Particularly
handy where the bottom area is inaccessible and a dropped nut is gone
forever or worse, will get caught in the works.

Stan

On 2011-09-04, wrote:
On Sep 3, 5:22*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2011-09-02, Sunworshipper SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote:

[ ... ]

* * * * As for screws -- I've got both straight and Phillips screw
starters which have a twist-lock. *You pushed the screw onto the end of
the driver and part of it rotates to lock the screw in place. *For the
straight blade, it is the middle which rotates relative to the rest of
the blade. *For the Phillips, one cross-blade rotates relative to the
other,a nd both have gripping surfaces. *Obviously, these are useless
for applying much torque, but great for starting screws -- or for
picking screws out of recesses -- cock the driver, move it down onto the
screw head, and press. *When it goes "snap" pull out screw and driver.

* * * * I haven't seen those in stores for years -- but presumably
someone still makes them.

[ ... ]

Used to be a staple item at the radio/TV supply places I used to go
to. Another business gone the way of the buggy whip. Had another sort
that worked better, a variation on the wedge driver for slotted
screws, where there's two right-angled petals that get expanded by a
plunger.

That sounds like a neat approach.

That one really locked the Phillips and crosspoints in
place. I've see a smaller version at the local model railroad supply
where they've got lots of small specialty stuff like that.

Hmm -- a No. 1 Phillips, a No. 2 Phillips, and perhaps a No. 3
Phillips and I would be happy there.

Anymore, you can get really tiny rare earth magnets which solves the
problem of pulling trim screws out of deep holes. Useless for
nonmagnetic stainless and nylon numbers, but those are rarely in the
bottom of holes that deep.

Unless they come from my drawers of screws. I've picked up
quite a few large bags of SS Phillips hardware at hamfests over the
years. :-)

I use small disk magnets in sockets and
nutdrivers for starting nuts in the same circumstances.

Except for brass nuts -- mostly found on terminal studs on the
back of D'Arsonval style meters, where magnetic materials are a no-no,
and places where the environment can be nasty -- as in telephone
junctions boxes on the outside of a house. (Actually, they used them
indoors a lot too, once upon a time.

Particularly
handy where the bottom area is inaccessible and a dropped nut is gone
forever or worse, will get caught in the works.

Or -- can cause short circuits down the road. I'm currently
working on a couple of old Tektronix 7000 series 'scopes right now. The
first one (a 7704), had bad (low resistance) 100 uF 18V electrolytic
capacitors in the power supply -- replaced, but other things are not
working right either Lots of things to trace out in that one. The other
one (a 7623 storage 'scope) has two 1800 uF 75VDC electrolytic caps
which appear to have gone open or dry, and I'm not sure that I can find
any of the same format (tab mount on PC board through holes like used to
be in old TV electrolytics), so I may have to do some creative
modification to mount something which will fit and work.

It was a major task, digging out an electronics workbench which
has been buried for about fifteen years (and which mice and a chipmunk
had used for a smorgasbord with acorns and sunflower seeds. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

wrote in message
...
On Sep 3, 5:22 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2011-09-02, Sunworshipper SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote:

[ ... ]

I'm getting to the point of being afraid to throw anything away cause
there are so many alternate uses for things. Like yesterday I was
using one of those rubber spatula's for an extended finger to thread
in a bolt that I could only reach with one finger.

Hmm ... in buying used electronic service toolkits, I wound up
with a set of spring-loaded thimbles with spring-loaded clips for various
sized hex nuts -- which is great for that particular task. (I have,
before, used double-sided tape to hold the nut to the fingertip.)

As for screws -- I've got both straight and Phillips screw
starters which have a twist-lock. You pushed the screw onto the end of
the driver and part of it rotates to lock the screw in place. For the
straight blade, it is the middle which rotates relative to the rest of
the blade. For the Phillips, one cross-blade rotates relative to the
other,a nd both have gripping surfaces. Obviously, these are useless
for applying much torque, but great for starting screws -- or for
picking screws out of recesses -- cock the driver, move it down onto the
screw head, and press. When it goes "snap" pull out screw and driver.

I haven't seen those in stores for years -- but presumably
someone still makes them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Used to be a staple item at the radio/TV supply places I used to go
to. Another business gone the way of the buggy whip. Had another sort
that worked better, a variation on the wedge driver for slotted
screws, where there's two right-angled petals that get expanded by a
plunger. That one really locked the Phillips and crosspoints in
place. I've see a smaller version at the local model railroad supply
where they've got lots of small specialty stuff like that.

Anymore, you can get really tiny rare earth magnets which solves the
problem of pulling trim screws out of deep holes. Useless for
nonmagnetic stainless and nylon numbers, but those are rarely in the
bottom of holes that deep. I use small disk magnets in sockets and
nutdrivers for starting nuts in the same circumstances. Particularly
handy where the bottom area is inaccessible and a dropped nut is gone
forever or worse, will get caught in the works.

Stan

***************

I still have a couple from my tv/radio repair shop days of yore.
They're marked Quick Wedge and they have a site.
http://www.quickwedge.com/
Art

On 2011-09-04, Artemus wrote:

[ ... ]

I still have a couple from my tv/radio repair shop days of yore.
They're marked Quick Wedge and they have a site.
http://www.quickwedge.com/
Art

Aha! i finally found it - -a single one marked "Phillips MP-1"
which will handle from #1 through #3 sizes, at a price of $27.23. It is
on this page:

http://www.quickwedge.com/1000v.htm

along with a few non-holding ones.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

A few smaller tool companies such as Cal-Van, K-D, make screw
starter-extractor tools sold in autoparts and retail stores.
(K-D 2282 Screw Holder and various other models)

The ones I have will lock into either slotted or philips recess screw heads
by cocking the mechanism on the end, then pressing the tip into the screw
cut/recess to lock the screw onto the tool.
These types doesn't have an actual molded handle, just a knurled section on
a length of aluminum round stock, and a magnet on the back end.

--
WB
..........


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2011-09-04, Artemus wrote:

[ ... ]

I still have a couple from my tv/radio repair shop days of yore.
They're marked Quick Wedge and they have a site.
http://www.quickwedge.com/
Art

Aha! i finally found it - -a single one marked "Phillips MP-1"
which will handle from #1 through #3 sizes, at a price of $27.23. It is
on this page:

http://www.quickwedge.com/1000v.htm

along with a few non-holding ones.

Thanks,
DoN.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:23:06 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

A few smaller tool companies such as Cal-Van, K-D, make screw
starter-extractor tools sold in autoparts and retail stores.
(K-D 2282 Screw Holder and various other models)

The ones I have will lock into either slotted or philips recess screw heads
by cocking the mechanism on the end, then pressing the tip into the screw
cut/recess to lock the screw onto the tool.
These types doesn't have an actual molded handle, just a knurled section on
a length of aluminum round stock, and a magnet on the back end.

--
WB
.........


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2011-09-04, Artemus wrote:

[ ... ]

I still have a couple from my tv/radio repair shop days of yore.
They're marked Quick Wedge and they have a site.
http://www.quickwedge.com/
Art

Aha! i finally found it - -a single one marked "Phillips MP-1"
which will handle from #1 through #3 sizes, at a price of $27.23. It is
on this page:

http://www.quickwedge.com/1000v.htm

along with a few non-holding ones.

Thanks,
DoN.


OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 2011-09-06, Wild_Bill wrote:
A few smaller tool companies such as Cal-Van, K-D, make screw
starter-extractor tools sold in autoparts and retail stores.
(K-D 2282 Screw Holder and various other models)

The ones I have will lock into either slotted or philips recess screw heads
by cocking the mechanism on the end, then pressing the tip into the screw
cut/recess to lock the screw onto the tool.
These types doesn't have an actual molded handle, just a knurled section on
a length of aluminum round stock, and a magnet on the back end.

Of course, they don't have a molded handle. They are not made
to handle the torque of either fully installing a screw, or breaking one
lose which is already installed. They are great for starting a screw
(down to finger tight), or for extracting a screw from where it is down
in a recess.

That is the kind which I was describing earlier in this thread,
and noting that I had not seen them in stores recently.

Some of mine have the magnet, others do not. (And for those that
do not, as they live in stitched pockets on a toolcase pallet, I use a
hacksaw (years ago) to cut either a shallow straight notch or a cross
notch in the end and filled them with India ink so I could grab the
right one for the screw which I was going to attack. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
00:23:18 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..

Is that a problem of the bit design, or of the bit construction?
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
00:23:18 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..

Is that a problem of the bit design, or of the bit construction?


I have no clue. I used new, brand name bits on existing screws in my
garage. The former owner had built racks that hung from the roof out of
2x4s and plywood. they weighed several hundred pounds each, and hung so
low they were in my way. I never want to see another of those screws
again since I had to remove the damaged heads with a surface grinder,
then use a crowbar to pull the wood off the threads. Then I had the fun
of removing the damaged screws with vise grips. At one time there were
a half dozen mobile factories around here, and the place was crawling
with surplus hardware. The used barrels of those damn things, and a lot
of it ended up at the local building surplus dealers. they may have all
been rejects, or salvaged by the original owner. He was the local 'Mr.
Fixit' for the subdivision and I don't think that he ever did anything
right.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 2011-09-06, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:23:06 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Aha! i finally found it - -a single one marked "Phillips MP-1"
which will handle from #1 through #3 sizes, at a price of $27.23. It is
on this page:

http://www.quickwedge.com/1000v.htm

along with a few non-holding ones.

[ ... ]

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Well ... yes -- but I don't find any of those when working on
the old Tektronix 'scopes which is my current focus. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:23:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..
You must have been using a No. ! bit in a No. 2 fastener.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:23:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..
You must have been using a No. ! bit in a No. 2 fastener.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

We see good and bad examples of square drive bits and screws. I have a box
of #2 square stainless screws that strip more easily than Phillips. T27 for
me!

jsw

Gerald Miller wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads.

You must have been using a No. 1 bit in a No. 2 fastener.


No, I wasn't. I used brand new #2 Robertson bits and burnt up over a
dozen of the things at $1.59 each. They were just crap screws.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
says...

Gerald Miller wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads.

You must have been using a No. 1 bit in a No. 2 fastener.


No, I wasn't. I used brand new #2 Robertson bits and burnt up over a
dozen of the things at $1.59 each. They were just crap screws.

I'm curious--were you using a drill, an impact driver, or a manual
screwdriver? I used to hate Robertsons, then I got an impact driver and
found that they suddenly became much more satisfactory.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 23:15:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:23:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.


Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..
You must have been using a No. ! bit in a No. 2 fastener.

He must have forgotten to seat the driver in the head and/or tried to
drive a screw from a sideways angle. Neither works, as he discovered.


We see good and bad examples of square drive bits and screws. I have a box
of #2 square stainless screws that strip more easily than Phillips.

Have you tried another brand of driver bit? Quality varies all over
the map with those things. DAMHIKT. What I hate is when the bit
breaks in the screw. It can't be drilled out, but sometimes a prick
punch can loosen it.


T27 for me!

Yeah, torx rocks!


jsw


--
That's the thing about needs. Sometimes, when you get them met,
you don't need them anymore. -- Michael Patrick King

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 23:15:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
...
We see good and bad examples of square drive bits and screws. I have a box
of #2 square stainless screws that strip more easily than Phillips.

Have you tried another brand of driver bit? Quality varies all over
the map with those things. DAMHIKT. What I hate is when the bit
breaks in the screw. It can't be drilled out, but sometimes a prick
punch can loosen it.

These are definitely extra-soft screws, stainless steel deck screws from
some overstock/closeout place. So I predrill and set the clutch light. All
the other stainless screws from there have been fine; Robertson just isn't
very popular around here even though the older carpenters are Canadien.

Snappy now sells quick change hex-shank tapered drill bits like the kitchen
cabinet installers use.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Images/products/148014.jpg

jsw

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
15:24:31 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
00:23:18 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..

Is that a problem of the bit design, or of the bit construction?


I have no clue. I used new, brand name bits on existing screws in my
garage. The former owner had built racks that hung from the roof out of
2x4s and plywood. they weighed several hundred pounds each, and hung so
low they were in my way. I never want to see another of those screws
again since I had to remove the damaged heads with a surface grinder,
then use a crowbar to pull the wood off the threads. Then I had the fun
of removing the damaged screws with vise grips. At one time there were
a half dozen mobile factories around here, and the place was crawling
with surplus hardware. The used barrels of those damn things, and a lot
of it ended up at the local building surplus dealers. they may have all
been rejects, or salvaged by the original owner. He was the local 'Mr.
Fixit' for the subdivision and I don't think that he ever did anything
right.

Hmmm, sounds to me like a "special case" where the screws had "set
up" in whatever they were sunk into, and were not going to come out
easily, regardless of the drive type. I've had a few of those myself.
Such an experience can color one's opinion of the product. OTOH,
Robinson heads do work well for installs.

Does anyone still use slotted head screw?
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:23:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 23:15:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
...
We see good and bad examples of square drive bits and screws. I have a box
of #2 square stainless screws that strip more easily than Phillips.

Have you tried another brand of driver bit? Quality varies all over
the map with those things. DAMHIKT. What I hate is when the bit
breaks in the screw. It can't be drilled out, but sometimes a prick
punch can loosen it.

These are definitely extra-soft screws, stainless steel deck screws from
some overstock/closeout place. So I predrill and set the clutch light. All
the other stainless screws from there have been fine; Robertson just isn't
very popular around here even though the older carpenters are Canadien.

That's too bad on both counts.


Snappy now sells quick change hex-shank tapered drill bits like the kitchen
cabinet installers use.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Images/products/148014.jpg

Huh? Which cabinet installers use tapered woodscrews?
I have an unused set of HF tapered billdrit/countersinks, but they're
round ended.

--
That's the thing about needs. Sometimes, when you get them met,
you don't need them anymore. -- Michael Patrick King

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
15:24:31 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 07 Sep 2011
00:23:18 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads..

Is that a problem of the bit design, or of the bit construction?


I have no clue. I used new, brand name bits on existing screws in my
garage. The former owner had built racks that hung from the roof out of
2x4s and plywood. they weighed several hundred pounds each, and hung so
low they were in my way. I never want to see another of those screws
again since I had to remove the damaged heads with a surface grinder,
then use a crowbar to pull the wood off the threads. Then I had the fun
of removing the damaged screws with vise grips. At one time there were
a half dozen mobile factories around here, and the place was crawling
with surplus hardware. The used barrels of those damn things, and a lot
of it ended up at the local building surplus dealers. they may have all
been rejects, or salvaged by the original owner. He was the local 'Mr.
Fixit' for the subdivision and I don't think that he ever did anything
right.

Hmmm, sounds to me like a "special case" where the screws had "set
up" in whatever they were sunk into, and were not going to come out
easily, regardless of the drive type. I've had a few of those myself.
Such an experience can color one's opinion of the product. OTOH,
Robinson heads do work well for installs.

Does anyone still use slotted head screw?


Yes, for electrical work.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gerald Miller wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads.

You must have been using a No. 1 bit in a No. 2 fastener.


No, I wasn't. I used brand new #2 Robertson bits and burnt up over a
dozen of the things at $1.59 each. They were just crap screws.

I'm curious--were you using a drill, an impact driver, or a manual
screwdriver? I used to hate Robertsons, then I got an impact driver and
found that they suddenly became much more satisfactory.


I tried impact on a few and snapped the heads off every one of them.
I used a drill with a clutch, since the damn things were five inches
long. I ran it at a slow speed, taking almost a minute to remove the
screw, if it didn't strip out, or break. In spite of what Larry said I
had the bits were fully seated, and not at an angle. I had to drive the
bit into a few of them, to get them fully seated.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gerald Miller wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads.

You must have been using a No. 1 bit in a No. 2 fastener.


No, I wasn't. I used brand new #2 Robertson bits and burnt up over a
dozen of the things at $1.59 each. They were just crap screws.

I'm curious--were you using a drill, an impact driver, or a manual
screwdriver? I used to hate Robertsons, then I got an impact driver and
found that they suddenly became much more satisfactory.


I tried impact on a few and snapped the heads off every one of them.
I used a drill with a clutch, since the damn things were five inches
long. I ran it at a slow speed, taking almost a minute to remove the
screw, if it didn't strip out, or break. In spite of what Larry said I
had the bits were fully seated, and not at an angle. I had to drive the
bit into a few of them, to get them fully seated.

If they broke that easily then I'm inclined to agree that they were crap
screws.

Were the bits that you used Robertson brand, two-piece color-coded with
the "R" marking on them? If not that might be your problem.

Robertson screws have a tapered recess and use a tapered bit. "Square
Drive" screws don't have a tapered recess and don't use a tapered bit.
You can drive Robertsons with a Square Drive bit but you wreck the bit
in short order. Vice versa works better but it's still not all that
great.

And historically the reason for this is that the first time Robertson
licensed their design the licensee tried to do them out of their
royalties and after that they refused to license it to anybody, leaving
the market open for clones.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gerald Miller wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

OTOH, Robertson drive fasteners are automatically held in place by the
tapered mating surfaces of the driver.

Not the ones I've seen and had to remove. Every damn one of them was
sloppy, and I burnt up a bit about every six screws because they would
wear down the corners till they just spun in the screw heads.

You must have been using a No. 1 bit in a No. 2 fastener.


No, I wasn't. I used brand new #2 Robertson bits and burnt up over a
dozen of the things at $1.59 each. They were just crap screws.

I'm curious--were you using a drill, an impact driver, or a manual
screwdriver? I used to hate Robertsons, then I got an impact driver and
found that they suddenly became much more satisfactory.


I tried impact on a few and snapped the heads off every one of them.
I used a drill with a clutch, since the damn things were five inches
long. I ran it at a slow speed, taking almost a minute to remove the
screw, if it didn't strip out, or break. In spite of what Larry said I
had the bits were fully seated, and not at an angle. I had to drive the
bit into a few of them, to get them fully seated.

If they broke that easily then I'm inclined to agree that they were crap
screws.

Were the bits that you used Robertson brand, two-piece color-coded with
the "R" marking on them? If not that might be your problem.


No color coding, but they were marked with an 'R'. The bits were
slightly tapered, as well. None of the screws survived being removed in
good enough condition to tell how they were made. All the damaged bits
and used screws were dumped into a bucket of metal shavings and short
pieces of scrap that was taken to the scrap yard over a decade ago. The
bits I have were bulk packed and now came from Northern Tool. I hope
that I never need to use one again, but I bought them just in case. I
know a lot of people who live in mobile or manufactured homes and I'm
sure I'll run into them again.


Robertson screws have a tapered recess and use a tapered bit. "Square
Drive" screws don't have a tapered recess and don't use a tapered bit.
You can drive Robertsons with a Square Drive bit but you wreck the bit
in short order. Vice versa works better but it's still not all that
great.

And historically the reason for this is that the first time Robertson
licensed their design the licensee tried to do them out of their
royalties and after that they refused to license it to anybody, leaving
the market open for clones.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Thursday, September 1, 2011 at 2:53:34 AM UTC-7, Wild_Bill wrote:

What function are the circuit boards when they're finished?
--Once we get the bugs worked out they're low speed tachometers. Range will be from around 2 to 3,000 rpm.