On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 11:31:04 -0800, Jon Anderson wrote:

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it? If the latter, what are my
options?

This might also sorta apply to my Grainger hand held spot welder. It's
110, but a 220 version was available and I was going to look into
whether or not I could rewire it for 220. Maybe better off on that one,
getting a really good size step down?

Seeing as I'm going to be an hour drive from anywhere that I could buy
blades, I'm really wanting to take this with me! Might even be able to
make a little side money welding blades for other folks.

50Hz or 60Hz? If it's 220V, 60Hz to a transformer, the transformer
shouldn't care where ground is. Only if they did something peculiar like
connect the transformer neutral to ground (which is _not_ kosher by
current US standards) would you have a problem.

If you have 50Hz AC out there and the transformer was designed for 60Hz
then it may not have enough turns to work right -- your magnetizing
current will be higher and you may saturate your core. Your best three
bets are to (a) look at the nameplate on the transformer and see what it
says, (b) plug it in and check the current going into the transformer at
idle, see if it's less than 10% of rated current, and if it passes (b),
plug it in for a while and see if things get too hot.

I suspect that even if it's not specifically designed for 50Hz operation
that as long as you don't keep the transformer energized for too long at
a stretch (i.e., use it then TURN IT OFF), you'll be fine. But don't
take me to court if I'm wrong!!

Ditto the Granger spot welder, if it can be rewired for 220V you should
be fine if the frequencies match up.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it?
If the latter, what are my options?

This might also sorta apply to my Grainger hand held spot welder. It's
110, but a 220 version was available and I was going to look into
whether or not I could rewire it for 220.
Maybe better off on that one, getting a really good size step down?

Seeing as I'm going to be an hour drive from anywhere that I could buy
blades, I'm really wanting to take this with me! Might even be able to
make a little side money welding blades for other folks.


Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors.

He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110.

Our 220 *is* 220, we just center tap the transformer to provide a
neutral in the middle.

A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it?
If the latter, what are my options?

If it's a 220 welder, their 220 and our 220 is the same as far as
voltage is concerned. It's 50HZ power vs. our 60HZ power so verify that
the welder can handle 50HZ.


This might also sorta apply to my Grainger hand held spot welder. It's
110, but a 220 version was available and I was going to look into
whether or not I could rewire it for 220.

I doubt it can be rewired for 220.

Maybe better off on that one, getting a really good size step down?

Perhaps, but better to see if you can get the 220 version of the welder.


Seeing as I'm going to be an hour drive from anywhere that I could buy
blades, I'm really wanting to take this with me! Might even be able to
make a little side money welding blades for other folks.

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

Be careful what you wish for - I had to wear corrective glasses in the
1st grade through about 4th because of "congenital amblyopia."

Good Luck!
Rich

Jon Anderson wrote:

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it?
If the latter, what are my options?

You didn't say what the machine expects. If the machine wants 110, then
220 will smoke it. If the machine wants 220, then it doesn't matter where
the 220 comes from - if it's 220 at the terminals, it's 220.

If the machine is strictly 110, then if there aren't voltage options
for it (like a terminal strip, or swappable leads), then yes, unfortunately
your best option is a step-down, albeit an "autotransformer" would be
cheaper than a full transformer.

And do NOT, under ANY circumstances, think that putting a diode in
series with the line will cut 220 down to 110 - you'll get pulsating DC
(which can smoke an induction motor) at an effective 150 V or so, which
will smoke your welder. (I know - you'd think that if the current is
only flowing half the time, that you'd get only half the power, but
the electronics gurun at sci.electronics.design taught me about RMS
(root-mean-square), or effective voltage; I didn't believe them until
I did it on a spreadsheet. I was shocked!

Crap! Where should I have closed that paren?

Good Luck!
Rich

On 08-Aug-2011 15:35, Pete C. wrote:

Jon Anderson wrote:


He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110.

Our 220 *is* 220, we just center tap the transformer to provide a
neutral in the middle.


In Australia (and other places that use 220) one leg is neutral (ie
has a potential that is very close to ground/earth) and one leg is hot.
This is just like in North America, except that in NA, the hot leg
is at 110 whereas in OZ it is 240.

In North America, 220 is made from TWO HOTs and neither leg is
neutral.

Many types of appliances are designed so that hot and neutral can't
be mixed up, and may have safety features that depend on the neutral
being, in fact, neutral. This is just as true of Australian appliances
as it is of North American or wherever.

Now you go putting two hots into an appliance designed for neutral
plus hot -- well, it may work fine. Or it might electrocute the
user. Your consulting electrical engineer would not sign off on
this.

Have fun.

__________________________________________________ __________________
Gardner Buchanan gbuchana(a)teksavvy(dot)com
FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.

Gardner expressed precisely :
On 08-Aug-2011 15:35, Pete C. wrote:

Jon Anderson wrote:


He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110.

Our 220 *is* 220, we just center tap the transformer to provide a
neutral in the middle.


In Australia (and other places that use 220) one leg is neutral (ie
has a potential that is very close to ground/earth) and one leg is hot.
This is just like in North America, except that in NA, the hot leg
is at 110 whereas in OZ it is 240.

In North America, 220 is made from TWO HOTs and neither leg is
neutral.

Many types of appliances are designed so that hot and neutral can't
be mixed up, and may have safety features that depend on the neutral
being, in fact, neutral. This is just as true of Australian appliances
as it is of North American or wherever.

Now you go putting two hots into an appliance designed for neutral
plus hot -- well, it may work fine. Or it might electrocute the
user. Your consulting electrical engineer would not sign off on
this.

Have fun.

__________________________________________________ __________________
Gardner Buchanan gbuchana(a)teksavvy(dot)com
FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.

In Australia and other 50hz countries the distribution is usually 3
phase 230/400 volts nominal but as it was 240 volts in years gone by
many areas still have 240 or more delivered (it is rarely below 240 at
my house). This is active to neutral and neutral is grounded at the
building entry. For higher loads the three phases can be used with 400
between them.
No metion has been made of the power required by this welder and
although the duty cycle may be short any transformer will need to cope
with the high start current.
Auto transformers are frowned upon and, I think, not allowed in some
cases because it is possible to have the 110 volts at the high end and
not at the neutral end if the wiring is not correct.

Pehaps Gunner could tell us what the power requirements might be??

--
John G.

Gardner wrote:

On 08-Aug-2011 15:35, Pete C. wrote:

Jon Anderson wrote:


He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110.

Our 220 *is* 220, we just center tap the transformer to provide a
neutral in the middle.


In Australia (and other places that use 220) one leg is neutral (ie
has a potential that is very close to ground/earth) and one leg is hot.
This is just like in North America, except that in NA, the hot leg
is at 110 whereas in OZ it is 240.

In North America, 220 is made from TWO HOTs and neither leg is
neutral.

Many types of appliances are designed so that hot and neutral can't
be mixed up, and may have safety features that depend on the neutral
being, in fact, neutral. This is just as true of Australian appliances
as it is of North American or wherever.

Now you go putting two hots into an appliance designed for neutral
plus hot -- well, it may work fine. Or it might electrocute the
user. Your consulting electrical engineer would not sign off on
this.

Have fun.

__________________________________________________ __________________
Gardner Buchanan gbuchana(a)teksavvy(dot)com
FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.

Welders aren't exactly "appliances", and they don't have two conductor
plugs. We are also talking about applying OZ power to US appliances, not
the other way around, so they are built to accept two non-grounded power
legs and a separate ground connection.

Jon Anderson wrote:

Ok, thought I'd spelled it out, but didn't. Here's the blade welder specs:

220 volts

No issue.

20 amp

No issue.

60 Hz

Issue since OZ power is 50 Hz. For a short duty cycle item like a blade
welder you will *probably* be ok. If it was a continuous duty item you
may have a problem. Obviously motor based items will run at a different
speed on 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz.

1 phase

No issue.

Instantaneous KVA 4
Continuous KVA 5 or .5, the potential decimal point being high enough
it's not clearly a decimal point. But if instantaneous means inrush,
then maybe .5 KVA continuous makes sense.

Yes, .5 continuous would make sense for the annealing cycle.


Sounds like I'd best find a local electrician that can give me a
definitive answer.

You're getting the definitive answer. 220V is 220V whether in AU or US,
the issue you will face is the frequency difference of 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz.
Many items will be rated 50/60 Hz and thus have no issue, while others
may have issues.
Transformers for 60 Hz are different from those for 50 Hz and as others
have noted, might saturate and overheat in continuous use on 50 Hz. For
short duty cycle items like a blade welder they will probably do ok, for
continuous / extended duty cycle items like an arc welder there could be
issues if the welder doesn't have a 50/60 rating.

A local electrician won't be in any better position to give you accurate
information that RCM can. The equipment manufacturer is the only one
that can tell you with any certainty if their 60 Hz rated product can
operate without issues on 50 Hz power.

Or weld up a life time supply of blades before I go...G

You could do that as well.

On 8/8/2011 2:02 PM, Rich Grise wrote:

Be careful what you wish for - I had to wear corrective glasses in the
1st grade through about 4th because of "congenital amblyopia."

MY OEM spec eyeballs. had 20/13 vision at one time. Just barely passed
vision test for my license renewal a few months ago...


Jon

Ok, thought I'd spelled it out, but didn't. Here's the blade welder specs:

220 volts
20 amp
60 Hz
1 phase
Instantaneous KVA 4
Continuous KVA 5 or .5, the potential decimal point being high enough
it's not clearly a decimal point. But if instantaneous means inrush,
then maybe .5 KVA continuous makes sense.

Sounds like I'd best find a local electrician that can give me a
definitive answer.
Or weld up a life time supply of blades before I go...G

Jon

On 8/8/2011 4:12 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Issue since OZ power is 50 Hz. For a short duty cycle item like a
blade welder you will *probably* be ok. If it was a continuous duty
item you may have a problem. Obviously motor based items will run at
a different speed on 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz.

I only have a couple induction motor items, like my Baldor carbide
grinder. I rarely ever run it more than a minute or two, so foresee no
problem there. If it ever does die from overheating, I'll hack-n-whack
the motor and case to allow belt drive from an external 50Hz motor.
My bench grinder, I'll use until it dies, then replace w/local flavor.


You're getting the definitive answer. 220V is 220V whether in AU or
US, the issue you will face is the frequency difference of 50 Hz vs.
60 Hz. Many items will be rated 50/60 Hz and thus have no issue,
while others may have issues. Transformers for 60 Hz are different
from those for 50 Hz and as others have noted, might saturate and
overheat in continuous use on 50 Hz. For short duty cycle items like
a blade welder they will probably do ok, for continuous / extended
duty cycle items like an arc welder there could be issues if the
welder doesn't have a 50/60 rating.

Ok, thank you. I'm loosely aware of the 50/60Hz issue in terms of
heating, but my gut feeling was that for the second it takes to actually
weld a blade, I wouldn't have trouble. But when Magic Smoke is involved,
I don't like to assume. I doubt I'd ever be production-line welding
blades, but will take care to make sure it doesn't overheat.

The equipment manufacturer is the only one that can tell you with any
certainty if their 60 Hz rated product can operate without issues on
50 Hz power.

Actually they couldn't, which is why I came here. I'll have to pay
attention to the blade grinder, might have to retrofit a 50Hz motor
there, or simply grind blades with something else.


Jon

On 2011-08-09, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 8/8/2011 4:12 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Issue since OZ power is 50 Hz. For a short duty cycle item like a
blade welder you will *probably* be ok. If it was a continuous duty
item you may have a problem. Obviously motor based items will run at
a different speed on 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz.

I only have a couple induction motor items, like my Baldor carbide
grinder. I rarely ever run it more than a minute or two, so foresee no
problem there. If it ever does die from overheating, I'll hack-n-whack
the motor and case to allow belt drive from an external 50Hz motor.
My bench grinder, I'll use until it dies, then replace w/local flavor.

[ ... ]

Ok, thank you. I'm loosely aware of the 50/60Hz issue in terms of
heating, but my gut feeling was that for the second it takes to actually
weld a blade, I wouldn't have trouble. But when Magic Smoke is involved,
I don't like to assume. I doubt I'd ever be production-line welding
blades, but will take care to make sure it doesn't overheat.

I would not consider that to be a problem. The actual weld
cycle is on the order of 0.1 second if not shorter, (I've never hooked
up a 'scope to actually *measure* it. :-)

Annealing takes a few seconds -- but at somewhat lower current
with shorter (perhaps 1 second) pulses spaced out as you cool it.

The equipment manufacturer is the only one that can tell you with any
certainty if their 60 Hz rated product can operate without issues on
50 Hz power.

Actually they couldn't, which is why I came here. I'll have to pay
attention to the blade grinder, might have to retrofit a 50Hz motor
there, or simply grind blades with something else.

The motor *might* draw a bit more current, but mostly it will
run slower by a factor of 5/6 (I believe it to be an induction motor,
not a brushed motor). The cure for the slower really involves a
slightly larger diameter wheel (and thus modifications to the guard) if
you really want the same speed. But for the application, you can take a
few more seconds grinding. Just don't plan to weld a couple of dozen
blades and then grind them all in a single run. If you weld one, then
grind it, and weld the next etc, you should be fine as long as you don't
leave the grinder running while you grind the next blade.

As for making up a lifetime supply of blades before moving --
consider that the bulk is a lot greater than a spool of blade stock.
And do you really know how many blades you will need in your lifetime?

Also -- the bandsaw will run slower, too -- though if it is a
variable-speed one, you should be fine.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 8/8/2011 8:22 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:

As for making up a lifetime supply of blades before moving --
consider that the bulk is a lot greater than a spool of blade stock.
And do you really know how many blades you will need in your lifetime?

Oh, I was really kidding on that one... Yeah, plan to take several 100'
rolls in varying pitches.


Also -- the bandsaw will run slower, too -- though if it is a
variable-speed one, you should be fine.

Plan for this is a 1/2hp 3ph motor w/inverter I can run from single
phase 220.


Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

Ok, thought I'd spelled it out, but didn't. Here's the blade welder specs:

220 volts
20 amp
60 Hz
1 phase

There you are. If it's 220, it's 220, albeit the 50 Hz/60 Hz thing might be
of concern, depending on what's drawing the power. Heating element, no
worries. Induction Motor, it will run at 5/6 rated RPM, so might be a
concern.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

50 Hz transformers require double the lamination weight than 60Hz does for
the same VA capacity.

60 Hz typically requires a finer (thinner) lamination to decrease the Eddy
current losses and heating incurred in the lamination core.

North America (Don't know about Mexico) never had 220v. It was and always
will be 240 Volts. 110, 115, 117, 220, 230, 550, and 575 volts are all
somebody's guess, usually from another continent.

----------------------

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it?
If the latter, what are my options?

This might also sorta apply to my Grainger hand held spot welder. It's
110, but a 220 version was available and I was going to look into
whether or not I could rewire it for 220.
Maybe better off on that one, getting a really good size step down?

Seeing as I'm going to be an hour drive from anywhere that I could buy
blades, I'm really wanting to take this with me! Might even be able to
make a little side money welding blades for other folks.


Jon

On Tue, 9 Aug 2011 22:04:49 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

50 Hz transformers require double the lamination weight than 60Hz does for
the same VA capacity.

60 Hz typically requires a finer (thinner) lamination to decrease the Eddy
current losses and heating incurred in the lamination core.

North America (Don't know about Mexico) never had 220v. It was and always
will be 240 Volts. 110, 115, 117, 220, 230, 550, and 575 volts are all
somebody's guess, usually from another continent.

----------------------

My understanding is that you can run 50hz transformers on 60hz without
any problems - the higher the frequency the less iron required.

And as far as the voltage is concerned, 115/230 has been a standard
voltage in many areas of North America over the years. 117/235 may
not have been an official standard - but was also common in many
areas.

135 volts was also provided in some areas for rural electrification

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Bought a DoAll blade welder from Gunner last year, and finally getting
around to restoring it. Wrote DoAll asking about parts and an electrical
question, got a reply back in less than an hour! Learned it was made in
1958, almost as old as I am, and some parts are still available! (wish
some parts were still available for me, could use a better back and a
pair of OEM spec eyeballs...G)

He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook this up to
their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it?
If the latter, what are my options?

This might also sorta apply to my Grainger hand held spot welder. It's
110, but a 220 version was available and I was going to look into
whether or not I could rewire it for 220.
Maybe better off on that one, getting a really good size step down?

Seeing as I'm going to be an hour drive from anywhere that I could buy
blades, I'm really wanting to take this with me! Might even be able to
make a little side money welding blades for other folks.


Jon

Yes. In the late 40s to early 50s the Ontario 25Hz system was converted to
60Hz without too much problem in most appliances and transformers. Many of
the modified 25Hz metering devices were only tossed in the early 90s as they
were beginning to not pass the tighter accuracy specs brought in later.

I believe you are correct about 50 to 60Hz transformer usage as the iron
size would be way oversized. It is different going the other way (60 to 50)
Typically the laminations were not much different to cause any excess
heating losses in the cores. It`s been a while for me on this subject. The
winding ratios determine the voltage inut ratios and the current ratings
of the conductors don`t change.

The standard N. American voltage spec is 120, 240, 600 (Some parts of
Canada, not familiar with 440-480 though) + or - 10% at the customer`s
panel entrance. AFAIK it has always been that but much confusion has
happened over the years.

The only place I have heard of 135v is on rural light bulbs so they run
cooler and the filaments last a long time and are not as critical with
surges. We may be confusing appliance and device voltage ratings with system
supply specs mandated by governing bodies. Sometimes the voltages are
reduced to express what people think are at the receiving end. eg. 550v

Network system supplies used in apartments and downtown Kit. run 125, 216 in
order to satisfy the specs using 2 out of 3 legs on a 3ph 4w system into
residences to reduce the conductor size to deliver it to multiple units in
close proximity.

------------------
My understanding is that you can run 50hz transformers on 60hz without
any problems - the higher the frequency the less iron required.

And as far as the voltage is concerned, 115/230 has been a standard
voltage in many areas of North America over the years. 117/235 may
not have been an official standard - but was also common in many
areas.

135 volts was also provided in some areas for rural electrification

On 8/9/2011 6:04 PM, Josepi wrote:
50 Hz transformers require double the lamination weight than 60Hz does
for the same VA capacity.

60 Hz typically requires a finer (thinner) lamination to decrease the
Eddy current losses and heating incurred in the lamination core.

Hmm, ok, maybe I'd be better off sourcing these transformers down there.
I'll browse eBay.au and ask around. Maybe if I can find some used ones
they won't be as expensive as I fear. Bit gun-shy over prices, rather
shocking to see a 30 pack of Pepsi on sale for $26. But maybe these
won't be as dear as I was thinking.


Jon

Rich Grise wrote:

Jon Anderson wrote:

? Ok, thought I'd spelled it out, but didn't. Here's the blade welder specs:
?
? 220 volts
? 20 amp
? 60 Hz
? 1 phase

There you are. If it's 220, it's 220, albeit the 50 Hz/60 Hz thing might be
of concern, depending on what's drawing the power. Heating element, no
worries. Induction Motor, it will run at 5/6 rated RPM, so might be a
concern.


Idiot. 60 Hz motors will overheat when used on 50 Hz. Transformers
will saturate, and draw more current.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:09:57 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

Yes. In the late 40s to early 50s the Ontario 25Hz system was converted to
60Hz without too much problem in most appliances and transformers. Many of
the modified 25Hz metering devices were only tossed in the early 90s as they
were beginning to not pass the tighter accuracy specs brought in later.

I believe you are correct about 50 to 60Hz transformer usage as the iron
size would be way oversized. It is different going the other way (60 to 50)
Typically the laminations were not much different to cause any excess
heating losses in the cores. It`s been a while for me on this subject. The
winding ratios determine the voltage inut ratios and the current ratings
of the conductors don`t change.

The standard N. American voltage spec is 120, 240, 600 (Some parts of
Canada, not familiar with 440-480 though) + or - 10% at the customer`s
panel entrance. AFAIK it has always been that but much confusion has
happened over the years.

115/230 was standard in many areas of Ontario in the '60s

The only place I have heard of 135v is on rural light bulbs so they run
cooler and the filaments last a long time and are not as critical with
surges. We may be confusing appliance and device voltage ratings with system
supply specs mandated by governing bodies. Sometimes the voltages are
reduced to express what people think are at the receiving end. eg. 550v

Rural light bulbs were rated at 135 for a reason. The line voltage in
many rural distribution systems were straight 135 AC - not center
tapped dual voltage. The DISTRIBUTION was 135 volts - very few
transformers - and therefore wide voltage variations with load. Each
farm might have a 30 amp servive - 50 amps was HUGE. Under full load,
the branch circuit voltages could drop to 110, and under light load,
the full 135 was present - so the bulbs needed to be 123 rated or they
would pop very early in their projected life.

Network system supplies used in apartments and downtown Kit. run 125, 216 in
order to satisfy the specs using 2 out of 3 legs on a 3ph 4w system into
residences to reduce the conductor size to deliver it to multiple units in
close proximity.

------------------
My understanding is that you can run 50hz transformers on 60hz without
any problems - the higher the frequency the less iron required.

And as far as the voltage is concerned, 115/230 has been a standard
voltage in many areas of North America over the years. 117/235 may
not have been an official standard - but was also common in many
areas.

135 volts was also provided in some areas for rural electrification

Jon Anderson writes:


He had no answer on the electrical question though. I'd asked someone,
somewhere, about just using one leg of the 220 for 110, like we do here,
to run tools with brush motors. He informed me that their 220 IS 220,
each leg, where ours is combined from two legs of 110. A step down
transformer will take care of that issue, I've already left a decent
sized one with my wife. But for the welder...

So dumb question for the electron challenged, can I just hook
this up to their 220 and run it, or will that smoke it? If the
latter, what are my options?


So you have two problems: frequency and voltage.

A) A transformer, including those with one winding that is
fixed & one that moves [aka "motor"] has iron as part of its
design. The iron is part of the inductive reactance that limits
the flow of current.

Too little XsubL = too much current == smoke.

The iron required is inversely proprtional to frequency. The
lower the line freq, the more iron needed. Aircraft use 400 Hz.
to save weight.

So running 60Hz anything [transformer-based] on 50 is iffy at best.
Maybe you can limit the current, maybe the duty cycle is low enough
that you can get away with it.

B) Voltage: The US and other countries use 220~240 volts, the
exact value is of little concern. What *IS* important is that
in the US, the center-tap is grounded at the main breaker and
is called "neutral." (This is called "split-phase" but NOT
two-phase, please.) In other places, one end of the 240 is
grounded.

So in the US, no part is more than 120V above ground; in other
places, 240v. Further, most of the control circuits run on 120.

Now, if your gadget is really 240v, not 120-0-120, and things
are up to the 240; then it should work. A water heater is one I
might bet on. Others, YMMV.



There is one idea I have. Can you get a 120-0-120 generator, and
size the pulley ratio to spin it at whatever rpm [likely 1800
or 3600] to get 60 Hz out?




--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Oh, an important exception or two. MANY power supplies for computers
and entertainment gadgets are "switchers". Laptop power supplies are
the most obvious.

A switcher rectifies the AC line into DC and then makes AC of
oh 100-500 Kilohertz, has a transformer, then rectifies that
output to the DC needed. Why all that? Cuz that 100+Khz
transformer is TINY and cheap vice a 60Hz one.

Such could care less what the input frequency. [Within limits...]

Further, lots of laptop switchers are rated "100-240V AC in" -
without changing a switch. Others such as desktops have that
{120|240} setting near the cord receptacle.

I'd assume any inverter welder was rated for 50-60 Hz but RTFM.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 8/10/2011 2:53 PM, David Lesher wrote:

There is one idea I have. Can you get a 120-0-120 generator, and
size the pulley ratio to spin it at whatever rpm [likely 1800
or 3600] to get 60 Hz out?

That was my first idea. Hang the generator on a frame and drive it with
a 50Hz electric motor, belted to give the correct RPM at the generator.
But this would mean any time I was going to use my stuff, I'd have to
fire up and run a large electric motor. Power is not cheap there and
going up rapidly.

I really think I'll be OK. My Bridgeport is rated 50/60Hz right on the
motor. Anything else I can hang a 3 phase motor on, I'll do so, along
with an inverter, or simply replace the motor there with a 50Hz.
All my hand power tools run brush motors, no problems other than
slightly lower RPM. The blade welder is 220, though our 220. But while I
seem to be getting slightly conflicting info here and there, it seems
unlikely that'll be a problem as the full load cycle is very short.
The oven shouldn't be an issue with a proper step down, and the hand
held spot welder, well, I haven't used it here in years and years,
starting to think I just might sell it.
I've finally found someone down under that knows a few real
electricians, she's going to see if any will field a few questions from
me. That should set things straight.

Thanks for the input!


Jon

On 8/10/2011 3:22 PM, David Lesher wrote:

Oh, an important exception or two. MANY power supplies for computers
and entertainment gadgets are "switchers". Laptop power supplies are
the most obvious.

I've found all modern wall warts (so far) are rated 110/220, 60Hz/50Hz
and auto switch. My mill DRO, computers, laptop PS, and a host of other
times, will just need plug adapters.

BTW, I took two computers back last time, an older HP for her folks, and
a fairly nice Dell I built up out of a yard sale score. The one for her
folks, I set to 220 here. But hers, I was installing software and
setting up the night before we left. Yup, forgot to switch the PS to 220.

Let me tell you, that's one HELL of a bang when a 110 PS gets socked
with 220! Needless to say, it died an instantaneous death. Luckily the
PS out of her old computer was a match, and the computer itself was fine.


Jon

Best of luck with your toroid **IRON CORE***. It won't be made from
plastic...LOL

They are the most efficient type of core and possibly even a ferrite
(powdered) iron construction for even more efficiency. I doubt that was a
concern but sounds good.

------------
"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Ok, have finally found something workable, if not cheap.
There's a company that makes isolated step down transformers using
toroidal transformers. No iron core to get hot! Should have at least
thought of this myself, I'm using one in the power supply for my CNC mill.

These are not cheap, one sized to run my oven or spot welder cost over
$500. Lower power units cheaper of course. But something important
pointed out to me, these meet current Australian Standards which is a
very big deal for insurance should anything ever happen.
Have any significant electrical fire in the shop and insurance finds out
I was using a home brew step down setup, and I'm screwed.

So, probably going to just buck up and pay the piper, unless I learn
that a licensed electrician can build and self certify a similar setup.
I've run 14 years here with a shop I wired myself, with nary a problem.
But...

Thanks all for all the good advice and suggestions. I think I've settled
this issue for good.


Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:

Ok, have finally found something workable, if not cheap.
There's a company that makes isolated step down transformers using
toroidal transformers. No iron core to get hot!


Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it. the loses would be sky high,
and it would go up in flames from the losses. The advantage to toroidal
transformers is lower losses of the magnetic fields, which makes them
more efficient, and less likely to affect other equipment with a stray
alternating magnetic field.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

115/230 was never standard **to supply** in Ontario! It was the result of
long lines and voltage drop that was acceptable to the regulating bodies for
customer delivery voltage (+/- 10% = 108-132Vac) HEPCO didn't care much in
the rural. They were the chief cook, bottle washer and the hydro police.

The rural lines are so long and so poor at times that the voltage can be
pushed up a bit with the usage of capacitors at the customer ends. Ontario
Hydro was notorious for this as they used the depreciating copper concept
and could only feed from one end of the line. This usually worked except for
the long outages caused by not being able to feed from both ends in an
emergency (**** the rural customer). Anyway, the power factor correction
capacitors raised the voltage during **ALL** times so that when the load was
light the poor ******* at the end of the long skinny run of copper had
voltage up to 140-150 volts! This wasn't acceptable but they closed their
eyes to it and got the farmers to buy high voltage (rough service) bulbs.
Motors liked it but bulbs didn't.

Again...yes you got 135Vac at your house but not by design or on purpose. On
pole tapchangers had similar problems. To correct the 90Vac for the poor
******* at the end of the long line up to 105Vac (barely livable) the pole
top tapchanger would step up the voltage by it's limit...usually 10, 12 or
15% boost. The poor ******* across the street got the 135Vac into his house
too. Again, not intentionally.

Many older homes in Kit had the old 120V 2W service. In one lady's home as
I walked from room to room she screwed in lightbulbs and walked back and
unscrewed the last rooms bulb! She had ***a single *** 25amp main screw in
fuse for a main fuse! Then they proceed to bitch about how their bills have
been outrageous at $21 for the two months and can't afford this nonsense!
LOL, Scary! She unplugged her cone heater, by her rocking chair, when she
wanted to use the 120V stove!

Most of Wilmot farms houses had the old 50/70A breakers in them. It was 50
ampere on each 120V leg and 70A total on a 240V loads. Most are gone now,
but I have been out of that part of the business since the 80s.

As an aside:
In later years OH started distributing 3phase 4W transmission lines.
Grounding a neutral every chance you get becomes a problem with high voltage
transmission lines but it the standard practice. Any voltage drop on a
transmission line gives a voltage drop in the neutral due to any unbalance
(neutral) and on a 4W system. On a 27.6kV system you can have a few hundred
volts, easily! Now tie that neutral to one end of Wilmot and the other end
to the far end of Wellesley and you have a (reduced by parallel earth path)
few hundred volts across the county, in the ground. This is what they call
"tingle voltage" As a rural boy (I think) I am sure you would be familiar
with cows dying of thirst after they got a zap in the yap from the water
trough, a few times. If you fix it, there, the next farm gets it worse. Some
get shocks in the pee-pee when taking a shower between the shower head and
the metal tub...LOL Some other story time...LOL

Have a good one!

---------------
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:09:57 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:


115/230 was standard in many areas of Ontario in the '60s

Rural light bulbs were rated at 135 for a reason. The line voltage in
many rural distribution systems were straight 135 AC - not center
tapped dual voltage. The DISTRIBUTION was 135 volts - very few
transformers - and therefore wide voltage variations with load. Each
farm might have a 30 amp servive - 50 amps was HUGE. Under full load,
the branch circuit voltages could drop to 110, and under light load,
the full 135 was present - so the bulbs needed to be 123 rated or they
would pop very early in their projected life.

Network system supplies used in apartments and downtown Kit. run 125, 216
in
order to satisfy the specs using 2 out of 3 legs on a 3ph 4w system into
residences to reduce the conductor size to deliver it to multiple units in
close proximity.

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

On 8/10/2011 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it.

sheepish grin Well, I've never cut one apart, so didn't know. Can't
SEE any steel... G


Jon

===============

Air core transformers are reserved for radio, UHF, TV, Microwave
frequencies. There will be some iron hiding in there somewhere.

Let us know how taking it apart goes! LOL

--

Eric

No steel **wound** anything. If you wind anything through the toroid hole
current will be induced into it (eddy currents) like a nother winding and
iron will get hot. The steel all goes around the loop and the copper goes
through the doughnut hole. Laminations are created to avoid this effect by
keeping the iron "loops" as small as possible.

--------------

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
sheepish grin Well, I've never cut one apart, so didn't know. Can't
SEE any steel... G


----------
On 8/10/2011 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it.

Ok, have finally found something workable, if not cheap.
There's a company that makes isolated step down transformers using
toroidal transformers. No iron core to get hot! Should have at least
thought of this myself, I'm using one in the power supply for my CNC mill.

These are not cheap, one sized to run my oven or spot welder cost over
$500. Lower power units cheaper of course. But something important
pointed out to me, these meet current Australian Standards which is a
very big deal for insurance should anything ever happen.
Have any significant electrical fire in the shop and insurance finds out
I was using a home brew step down setup, and I'm screwed.

So, probably going to just buck up and pay the piper, unless I learn
that a licensed electrician can build and self certify a similar setup.
I've run 14 years here with a shop I wired myself, with nary a problem.
But...

Thanks all for all the good advice and suggestions. I think I've settled
this issue for good.


Jon

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:28:08 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

115/230 was never standard **to supply** in Ontario! It was the result of
long lines and voltage drop that was acceptable to the regulating bodies for
customer delivery voltage (+/- 10% = 108-132Vac) HEPCO didn't care much in
the rural. They were the chief cook, bottle washer and the hydro police.

The rural lines are so long and so poor at times that the voltage can be
pushed up a bit with the usage of capacitors at the customer ends. Ontario
Hydro was notorious for this as they used the depreciating copper concept
and could only feed from one end of the line. This usually worked except for
the long outages caused by not being able to feed from both ends in an
emergency (**** the rural customer). Anyway, the power factor correction
capacitors raised the voltage during **ALL** times so that when the load was
light the poor ******* at the end of the long skinny run of copper had
voltage up to 140-150 volts! This wasn't acceptable but they closed their
eyes to it and got the farmers to buy high voltage (rough service) bulbs.
Motors liked it but bulbs didn't.

Again...yes you got 135Vac at your house but not by design or on purpose. On
pole tapchangers had similar problems. To correct the 90Vac for the poor
******* at the end of the long line up to 105Vac (barely livable) the pole
top tapchanger would step up the voltage by it's limit...usually 10, 12 or
15% boost. The poor ******* across the street got the 135Vac into his house
too. Again, not intentionally.

Many older homes in Kit had the old 120V 2W service. In one lady's home as
I walked from room to room she screwed in lightbulbs and walked back and
unscrewed the last rooms bulb! She had ***a single *** 25amp main screw in
fuse for a main fuse! Then they proceed to bitch about how their bills have
been outrageous at $21 for the two months and can't afford this nonsense!
LOL, Scary! She unplugged her cone heater, by her rocking chair, when she
wanted to use the 120V stove!

Most of Wilmot farms houses had the old 50/70A breakers in them. It was 50
ampere on each 120V leg and 70A total on a 240V loads. Most are gone now,
but I have been out of that part of the business since the 80s.

As an aside:
In later years OH started distributing 3phase 4W transmission lines.
Grounding a neutral every chance you get becomes a problem with high voltage
transmission lines but it the standard practice. Any voltage drop on a
transmission line gives a voltage drop in the neutral due to any unbalance
(neutral) and on a 4W system. On a 27.6kV system you can have a few hundred
volts, easily! Now tie that neutral to one end of Wilmot and the other end
to the far end of Wellesley and you have a (reduced by parallel earth path)
few hundred volts across the county, in the ground. This is what they call
"tingle voltage" As a rural boy (I think) I am sure you would be familiar
with cows dying of thirst after they got a zap in the yap from the water
trough, a few times. If you fix it, there, the next farm gets it worse. Some
get shocks in the pee-pee when taking a shower between the shower head and
the metal tub...LOL Some other story time...LOL

Have a good one!

My Dad was an electrician doing rural electrification in Waterloo
Region in the sixties.And residential wiring until his retirement 15
or so years ago
---------------
wrote in message ...

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:09:57 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:


115/230 was standard in many areas of Ontario in the '60s

Rural light bulbs were rated at 135 for a reason. The line voltage in
many rural distribution systems were straight 135 AC - not center
tapped dual voltage. The DISTRIBUTION was 135 volts - very few
transformers - and therefore wide voltage variations with load. Each
farm might have a 30 amp servive - 50 amps was HUGE. Under full load,
the branch circuit voltages could drop to 110, and under light load,
the full 135 was present - so the bulbs needed to be 123 rated or they
would pop very early in their projected life.

Network system supplies used in apartments and downtown Kit. run 125, 216
in
order to satisfy the specs using 2 out of 3 legs on a 3ph 4w system into
residences to reduce the conductor size to deliver it to multiple units in
close proximity.

Jon Anderson wrote:

On 8/10/2011 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it.

sheepish grin Well, I've never cut one apart, so didn't know. Can't
SEE any steel... G


I have scrapped damaged torodial power transformers. You can see the
coil of steel that forms the toroid. You have to be careful not to let
it get lose, or you'll have it going all over the place like a broken
steel tape measure.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 8/10/2011 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it.

sheepish grin Well, I've never cut one apart, so didn't know. Can't
SEE any steel... G


Jon

Josepi wrote:

No steel **wound** anything. If you wind anything through the toroid hole
current will be induced into it (eddy currents) like a nother winding and
iron will get hot. The steel all goes around the loop and the copper goes
through the doughnut hole. Laminations are created to avoid this effect by
keeping the iron "loops" as small as possible.


Sigh. The core is wound of coated steel. Have you ever even 'seen'
a toroidal power transformer?

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:42:20 -0400, "Josepi"
wrote:

No steel **wound** anything. If you wind anything through the toroid hole
current will be induced into it (eddy currents) like a nother winding and
iron will get hot. The steel all goes around the loop and the copper goes
through the doughnut hole. Laminations are created to avoid this effect by
keeping the iron "loops" as small as possible.

--------------

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
sheepish grin Well, I've never cut one apart, so didn't know. Can't
SEE any steel... G


----------
On 8/10/2011 6:06 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Sigh. That 'Toroid' is wound from steel tape. You can't make a
decent 50 or 60 Hz transformer without it.


High inrush current is a problem, particularly on larger torroidal
transformers

Jon Anderson writes:


There is one idea I have. Can you get a 120-0-120 generator, and
size the pulley ratio to spin it at whatever rpm [likely 1800
or 3600] to get 60 Hz out?

That was my first idea. Hang the generator on a frame and drive it with
a 50Hz electric motor, belted to give the correct RPM at the generator.
But this would mean any time I was going to use my stuff, I'd have to
fire up and run a large electric motor. Power is not cheap there and
going up rapidly.

No, it would mean you would run that for those things not
fixable via other cures.

I really think I'll be OK. My Bridgeport is rated 50/60Hz right on the
motor. Anything else I can hang a 3 phase motor on, I'll do so, along
with an inverter, or simply replace the motor there with a 50Hz.

Obviously, a multiphase VFD will work. It will not care what the
input freq is; but you may need to derate it if you don't have
3-ph there. And have a load reactor, of course.

All my hand power tools run brush motors, no problems other than
slightly lower RPM. The blade welder is 220, though our 220. But while I
seem to be getting slightly conflicting info here and there, it seems
unlikely that'll be a problem as the full load cycle is very short.

As I said, the 50 Hz is only half of the issue. The 240 above neutral
is the one that can kill you, vice just smoke the gear.

The oven shouldn't be an issue with a proper step down, and the hand
held spot welder, well, I haven't used it here in years and years,
starting to think I just might sell it.

Any transformer will be worth more than a ?oven? [I don't recall
what this was.] it can run. Transformers are not cheap new.

I've finally found someone down under that knows a few real
electricians, she's going to see if any will field a few
questions from me. That should set things straight.

Don't count on them knowing how those crazy Yanks wire things.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 04:56:50 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

Jon Anderson writes:



The oven shouldn't be an issue with a proper step down, and the hand
held spot welder, well, I haven't used it here in years and years,
starting to think I just might sell it.

Any transformer will be worth more than a ?oven? [I don't recall
what this was.] it can run. Transformers are not cheap new.


The furnace in question probably runs over $1000 new. A new
transformer large enough to power it would be less than $200. I sold a
couple used weatherproof 15kVA 480/240 to 240/120 transformers
recently, and was glad to get around $100 each for them.

--
Ned Simmons

I would be sure our paths should have crossed. You sound younger than I
would have thought, perhaps.

Is your dad still alive? Not a roth in there?


-----------
wrote in message ...
My Dad was an electrician doing rural electrification in Waterloo
Region in the sixties.And residential wiring until his retirement 15
or so years ago

Perhaps that was a deterrent in popularity more than just their hard to wind
costs. I usually dealt with them as current transformers and inverter power
supplies mainly with their small ferrite cores, some with laminations, some
split core laminations (So they could be opened for insertion of conductor)
but they were harder to make to real accurate ratios (think clamp-on)

--------------
wrote in message ...
High inrush current is a problem, particularly on larger torroidal
transformers