I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

David

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:10:13 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

1950 Chinese winter clothings, base on what I've seen in contemporary
rural China, was probably really, really thick due to use of
rudimentary materials and crude construction. Their toddlers are
usually rosy-cheeked from being overheated.

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.

--
Steve W.

In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

Joe Gwinn

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

The difference in power is huge. When I was a kid in PA, the .30 cal. M1
carbine was not legal for deer hunting, because it was underpowered. No .22
centerfires were allowed, either.

Here's an interesting anecdote, which I didn't see in the HBO series "The
Pacific," which otherwise was almost the exact story my dad told me about
WWII in the South Pacific. My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress



I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

Joe Gwinn

On Jul 21, 10:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress

AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 10:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of
dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well
as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they
shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress

AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw

Yeah, my dad said that it was the army that had the Garands, until after the
Marines left Guadalcanal. But some Marine units there may well have had
them. He was talking about his unit, without specifying what he meant by
that.

BTW, I shot M1 carbines in an organized competition that was co-sponsored by
the NRA and the Police Athletic League. I was 13 at the time, and it was
called the "Junior DCM." I don't know what involvement the DCM had, except
to supply us with beat-up carbines and free ammo.

I recall the first time we shot them outdoors, at 50 yards. I had three or
four Sharpshooter bars by that time with small bore rifles, but I shot one
of the carbines prone at 50 yd. and shots were scattered all over the paper.
I never grew to like that gun at all.

--
Ed Huntress

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Jul 21, 10:36*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw-

Mt Austen, not Wilson. I shouldn't post from memory, but Google isn't
very much help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_... he_Sea_Horse
I was trying to find when Carlson's Second Marine Raiders received
Garands.
http://www.janeresture.com/carlson_about/index.htm
Gung Ho = work together, from Mao via Carlson.

jsw

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:54:24 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Jul 22, 3:32*am, CaveLamb wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
...
That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.
Richard Lamb

It apparently evolved from this, a marginally effective deer cartridge
(as is the current .223):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-40_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-20_Winchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_Win...r_Self-Loading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1905
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

jsw

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"We don't support "guns" ... the term "gun" gets in the way of
what is really being talked about here - we want choice in
personal security devices." Ann Coulter

On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 00:51:24 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

tschus
pyotr


When loaded with a FMJ bullet..the 30 Carbine isnt much of a combat let
along a self defense weapon.

HOWEVER!

When its loaded with a soft point or hollow point..it becomes a VERY
effective short range weapon against unarmored human targets. Very
effective. Its also a rather decent pistol cartridge as well, when
loaded with expanding bullets of the same sorts. Ruger and AMT made
revolvers and self loaders that are highly sought after.



When using modern HPs in the .30 Carbine vs FMJ in the 5.56?


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...286-722135_ITM

SHOOTERS SEEKING A HIGH-PERFORMANCE TACTICAL CARBINE WITHOUT A HIGH-TECH
PRICE TAG ARE REDISCOVERING THIS VERSATILE, VINTAGE FIREARM.

Police agencies and armed citizens need a good long arm to supplement
their handgun for defensive purposes. There are very few situations
where a person is better off defending himself with a handgun than a
good long gun, if the latter is available.

Here the definition of long gun is a shoulder-fired weapon like a rifle,
carbine, submachine gun, assault rifle or shotgun. There is a readily
available, often overlooked long gun that is superb for this purpose
that can out-perform most of its high-tech, expensive competition -- the
M1 carbine.

In recent years the traditional shotgun has been losing favor with both
police and civilians for defensive use. The reasons for this include
excessive recoil, a high degree of proficiency in operation, potential
collateral damage from the buckshot pattern, and the limited effective
range with buckshot.

In answer, many departments, individual officers and armed civilians
have turned to semi-automatic rifles or carbines in either pistol
calibers or .223 for use as tactical long guns. Some law enforcement
agencies have turned to submachine guns.

All of these guns offer improved ballistic performance and practical
accuracy over a handgun. However, none of the pistol-caliber carbines or
submachine guns are nearly as effective as the old and often unfairly
maligned .30 Ml carbine.

With proper ammunition, the M1 carbine can easily compete in
effectiveness with .223-chambered weapons out to at least 150 yards, and
few police or civilians have any business shooting at anybody farther
away than that.

In addition, the M1 carbine weighs only 5 1/2 lbs., making it a pound or
more lighter than most of its competition, including even the
pistol-caliber carbines, and considerably lighter than many like the UZI
submachine gun at 8.8 lbs. or the M16A2 at 7.9 lbs.

Born Far Combat

The M1 carbine has many other assets as well. It has superb reliability
under the worst field conditions. Its accuracy exceeds that of virtually
all the pistol-caliber carbines and submachine guns on the market and is
comparable with that of many of the semi-automatic .223 rifles.

Another huge advantage for the M1 carbine is that, unlike most modern
firearms, it has pre-ban high capacity 15- and 30-round magazines
readily available in quantity at very modest prices. The same holds true
for spare parts and accessories.

Ballistically, the M1 carbine's little .30 Carbine cartridge packs about
2.5 times the kinetic energy of a standard .45 ACP or 9mm load fired
from a pistol. This is solidly in the energy territory of the .44 Mag.
revolver. Indeed it has only 90 ft./lbs. less energy at the muzzle than
the Russian 5.45x39mm cartridge and is only a little farther behind the
..223 when fired from 14.5" or 16" barreled carbines.

Options And Tactics

Although a cartridge's muzzle energy is not the sole criterion for
measuring its effectiveness, it is a good indication of the cartridge's
potential if it is loaded with properly designed expanding bullets. With
military-type FMJ bullets, the .30 Carbine will drill right through car
bodies and such.

This capability is highly desirable to police officers in many
situations. When the .30 Carbine cartridge is loaded with expanding
bullets, its effectiveness as a manstopper increases exponentially. One
police unit used M1 carbines loaded with JSPs in several shootings. They
found the carbines to be extremely effective. Quoting one of their more
experienced officers about the results from shootings with a .30 Carbine
using expanding bullet ammunition, "We never had to shoot anyone twice."

Out to at least 150 yards, the .30 Carbine cartridge usually makes a
more serious wound than does the .223, .308 or .30-'06, when the latter
are used with FMJ bullets. It is also greatly superior to any of the
common defensive pistol rounds fired from a handgun or carbine, even
when the latter uses hollow point ammunition.

Even the FMJ .30 Carbine load is far more effective than is commonly
thought. After interviewing many veteran M1 carbine users from World War
II, Korea and Vietnam, we found that the vast majority of these soldiers
found the M1 carbine to be quite effective even with GI ball ammunition.

One former Marine who saw extensive combat with the MI carbine in the
Pacific in World War II was quite emphatic that the little gun and its
cartridge were effective in the close-range combat that he experienced.
He also stated that he greatly preferred the M1 carbine to the Garand
for that type of fighting because of its much lighter weight, shorter
length and higher magazine capacity.

First-Hand Experience

Another veteran M1 carbine user interviewed was a U.S. Army Special
Forces adviser in the early days of the Vietnam War. He had advised
indigenous units armed almost exclusively with M1 carbines, and used the
gun extensively himself in combat. He stated that the M1 carbine was
very effective in the jungle combat that they typically experienced.
Interestingly, he said that when M16s eventually replaced the M1
carbines, he found that the new gun offered little if any significant
advantage in effectiveness over the older M1 carbines.

Probably the most authoritative account of the effectiveness of the M1
carbine in real combat comes from the superb book Shots Fired In Anger
by John George. George served as a company grade officer in World War II
in the famous Merrill's Marauders, operating behind Japanese lines.
George was a highly experienced and successful service rifle competitor,
shooter and hunter before the war, so all of his writing is from the
perspective of someone highly knowledgeable about guns.

The M1 carbine was his primary weapon in the Marauders. The light weight
of the carbine and its ammunition made it ideal for troops like the
Marauders that carried all their supplies and equipment with them and
were re-supplied by airdrops. His book covers several instances where he
personally used or observed M1 carbines employed with great effect.

George reports, "The M1 carbine turned out to be the ace weapon of the
war, as far as I am concerned. It was light and handy, powerful, and
reasonably accurate ... The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate
several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the
Japanese bulletproof vest, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs.
It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than 200
yards ... For many types of offensive fighting, such as sneak raids and
infiltration tactics, it was often superior even to the M1 (Garand),
penetration being the only point of difference."

Full-Auto Follies

Late in World War II a selective-fire version of the M1 carbine was
introduced as the M2 carbine. These saw little use in World War II, but
were extensively used in Korea. Many of the accounts about the
ineffectiveness of the .30 Carbine round come from improper and
ineffective use of the M2 carbine on full auto.

Typically, the soldier or Marine dumped an entire magazine on full auto
at a charging enemy with little or no effect. The probable truth is that
in most instances it was ineffective because he simply missed. When
firing the M2, if the first shot does not hit, none of the following
shots will hit either, because the weapon will quickly climb off target,
particularly with a long burst. The idea that anyone could absorb a
magazine full of .30 Carbine bullets through the chest and keep coming
is a myth born of bad shooting.

One must remember that these accounts are all about the M1 or M2 carbine
using standard GI hardball ammunition. When this weapon is used with
modern expanding bullets, its effectiveness against soft targets is
increased considerably. One of the best .30 Carbine loads is the
Winchester HSP. It is very accurate, feeding and expanding superbly and
reliably.

A Cost Effective Warrior

An important asset of the Ml carbine is that two or three M1 carbines
can be purchased for the price of one AR-15 or MP5 submachine gun. An
affordable M1 carbine is worth more than all the expensive
state-of-the-art rifles that you do not have when you need them, because
you cannot afford them.

Something else in the Ml carbine's favor compared to all the submachine
guns and rifles based on military assault rifles, is that it is
relatively innocuous looking. Police do not like to be perceived as
storm troopers, and the M1 carbine is much less likely to cause that
impression than an AR-15 or an MP5,

The Ml carbine is too good a gun to be overlooked. Several hundred
thousand of them are in circulation in the U.S., and many can be
purchased at very reasonable prices. Israeli Arms International (IAI)
and Springfield Inc. are currently offering excellent M1 carbines made
to GI specifications using surplus military M1 carbine parts. Many more
surplus Ml carbines are standing offshore, waiting to be imported into
the U.S. under a favorable political climate.

For defensive fighting purposes typically encountered by police and
armed civilians, an AR-15 or one of its better clones is perhaps
preferable to the Ml carbine, if both are used with expanding bulleted
ammunition. However, the Ml carbine with expanding bullet ammunition is
more effective than any .223 rifle loaded with GI handball or any
submachine gun or semiautomatic pistol-caliber carbine on the market.
The Ml carbine is that good!


COPYRIGHT 2001 Publishers' Development Corporation"
--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

In article ,
says...

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

Might have been, on the other hand his Medal of Honor citation says that
he used a .50 caliber and a telephone with an artillery battery on the
other end of it.

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"We don't support "guns" ... the term "gun" gets in the way of
what is really being talked about here - we want choice in
personal security devices." Ann Coulter

On Jul 23, 11:39*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
...
* *OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

Might have been, on the other hand his Medal of Honor citation says that
he used a .50 caliber and a telephone with an artillery battery on the
other end of it.

Most of the actions he described here were close-range infantry gun
battles:
http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Back-Audi.../dp/0805070869

jsw

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:54:24 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

On Jul 23, 7:30*pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

I remember it as a replacement for the pistol for officers in fighting
units.

Dan

On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:01:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 23, 7:30*pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

I remember it as a replacement for the pistol for officers in fighting
units.

Dan

could have been. I was quoting from something I read when they first
issued the things. Stated to be a substitute for the 1911.
Subsequently it was the official personal weapon issued to Air Force
troops so the A.F. guys in Korea had carbines and the rest of the
troops had grown-up guns :-)

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

"J. Clarke" on Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:39:28 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
In article ,
says...

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

Might have been, on the other hand his Medal of Honor citation says that
he used a .50 caliber and a telephone with an artillery battery on the
other end of it.

Well, those work,too. And I did say "preferred" weapon. I mean
it wasn't like he insisted that there was only one true firearm for
shooting the enemy. Just that Ma-deuce and arty are not too handy for
use as a personal weapon, but "what ever works."

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

--
pyotr filipivich
"We don't support "guns" ... the term "gun" gets in the way of
what is really being talked about here - we want choice in
personal security devices." Ann Coulter

Joseph Gwinn on Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:42:44 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

The Garand was a battle rifle, using the full up 30-06 round. The
Carbine was a real hot pistol round, and beat having no gun at all.
And in properly trained hands, could do the job of stopping the enemy.
Maybe not as well as a belt-fed Sarge, but ...
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!