I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders. But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:55:06 -0800, Eric R Snow wrote:
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired.

Yikes. That's almost always really really unwise.

I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart.

As expected. I wonder why they'd waste a rifle to prove that that
would happen? Was this mythbusters or something?

It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders.

There were bolt action black powder rifles built in the 1800s, which
wasn't your question but it's interesting. 11mm Mauser, for example.
More a "thrust" than a "slap" when you shoot it.

But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder?

Burn rate & pressure curves. You can get the same velocity with black
powder, but it burns "differently" (there, weasl-y enough?)

Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?

Yes, yes, and yes, in that order.

Hope the preceeding was clear.

About as clear as my answer, sorry. rec.guns might be another place to
talk about this, chances are good someone saw the same show you did and
has more details.

Dave Hinz

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders. But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders.

But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

The show might have shown one of the new inline muzzle loaders that have the
powder and bullet loaded from the muzzle, then the bolt is opened and the
primer inserted on the back of the chamber. That would account for a bolt
flying out the rear. But there are also standard cartridges that can be
loaded with black powder like the .45-70 or .44-40 so a "black powder rifle"
is not necessarily a muzzle loader.

Smokeless is more powerful than black powder and burns faster so it creates
more of a pressure spike. The modern powder to be used in muzzle loaders in
place of black powder is called Pyrodex. To give you an idea of how much
more powerful, in cartridges like the .45-70 you would use 70 grains of
black powder but only 40-50 grains of smokeless. Obviously a grain for
grain substitution is going to be a big problem.

It's not a matter of weaker materials, just design specs. For example, a
shotgun is designed around a cartridge that produces a maximum of maybe
15,000 PSI of pressure. A cartridge like the .308 is designed around a
pressure limit of 65,000. Guess what happens if you subject a shotgun to
65,000 PSI? I don't know what a typical design pressure would be in a
muzzle loader but I suspect it's closer to shotgun than .308. Manufacturers
design the firearm around the SAAMI specifications for pressure and the ammo
produced to those specs (or the loading instructions in the case of muzzle
loaders). As long as everyone follows the rules when making their own ammo
or loading their muzzle loader we all get home safely!

Steve.

Depends what kinda of smokless powder they tested it with, and how much. If
they put 50 grains of pistol/shotgun powder double base powder like WW231 or
Reddot, it would blow up any gun, modern or old.

If they used a progressive burning rifle powder 3031/4895/7831, the barrel
might not be able to handle the peak pressure, espeically with large
bore//thin barrel muzzleloader.

So, it depends on how big the load, and what kinda powder.


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders. But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders. But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

I would never replace black powder with smokeless; it's a whole different
animal. Very different ingredients, burning rates, and hence power produced.
You're asking for a lot of hurt!
Lane

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Eric R Snow
wrote back on Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:55:06 -0800 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders.

Nope. There are still some cartridges made with black powder.

But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder?

Basically: yes. Smokeless powders, especially modern powders, have
more "bang" per unit volume than black powder. So if you filled a black
powder cartridge with the same volume of smokeless powder, you're putting a
serious charge in there.

Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?

Yes.

Black powder rifles can get away with lesser strength than a smokeless
powder rifle, but that is a lesser issue.

Most of it has to do with modern powders producing higher pressures
than BP. Kind of like burning Aviation Gas in something designed to use
Kerosene.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

Eric R Snow wrote:

I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders.

Not at all. See, e.g., http://www.csharpsarms.com for blackpowder cartridge
rifles.

-jc-

Eric R Snow wrote:

I caught the last half of a shooting show where the theme was black
powder vs modern high power smokeless powder. To demonstrate the
difference and graphically show the difference a modern black powder
rifle was loaded with smokeless powder and fired. I missed the part
where they were loading it so I don't know how much powder was used or
the size of the bullet. I came in where the rifle was placed in a
braced position with a string tied to the trigger. The fellow went
around the corner of the shooting shack and pulled the trigger. The
rifle blew apart. It looked like a bolt shot backwards out of the
rifle.But since it was a black powder rifle there may not have been a
bolt. In fact, I thought all new black powder rifles were muzzle
loaders. But then, I don't think so good. Anyway, since the rifle blew
up was it because modern powder is so much more powerful than black
powder? Or is it because more black powder is used per round and when
using the same amount of more powerful smokeless powder it would blow
any modern rifle? Or is it a combination of weaker materials being
used in modern black powder rifles compared to rifles that shoot
smokeless powder and the higher power powder being used in the same
amount as the lower power powder?
Hope the preceeding was clear.
Thanks,
Eric

As the others have said, smokeless powder of any sort has completely
different characteristics than black powder has, especially when lit off
in a confined space. The pressures from black powder are quite low, on
the order of 20k psi (IIRC) while a typical pressure for a modern
smokeless cartridge will be in the 50k or less psi range to be
considered safe.

In many cases the slow rate of burn of black powder (if coarse enough
grain size was used) would cause excess amounts to be ejected with the
bullet and thus be self limiting, to a point. It is quite possible to
blow up any modern firearm by loading too much, too fast burning powder
as well.

As to the bolt blowing out the back. Traditional muzzle loading weapons
had the barrels made as a tube, with a plug, often incorporating the
tang and flash hole, screw threaded into the breech end. It is possible
this was what you saw come out of the back.

Cheers
Trevor Jones