Do you own firearms?
Senator John Kerry is a co sponsor on S1431 along with Feinstein,
Ted Kennedy, and Charles Schumer . This Bill will outlaw ALL semi
auto shotguns, ALL semi auto center fire and rimfire rifles that
have detachable magazines like Remington 7600 and the Ruger
rimfire 10.22.

The Bill will also ban a lot of other firearms that have been
newly newly determined to be assault weapons. Of course Kerry and
his ilk will determine which guns fit their criteria.

Do you still intend to vote for John Kerry? After all he said he
supports the Second Amendment.
-------------------------------------------------

Here's the full text of HR 2038:


Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of
2003 (Introduced in Senate)

S 1431 IS

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1431

To reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other
purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

July 17, 2003

Mr. LAUTENBERG (for himself and Mr. CORZINE) introduced the
following bill; which was read twice and referred to the
Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other
purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Assault Weapons Ban and Law
Enforcement Protection Act of 2003'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 921(a)(30) of title 18, United
States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means any of
the following:

`(A) The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) AK, AKM, AKS, AK-47, AK-74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90,
NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR;

`(ii) AR-10;

`(iii) AR-15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms
PCR;

`(iv) AR70;

`(v) Calico Liberty;

`(vi) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU;

`(vii) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC;

`(viii) Hi-Point Carbine;

`(ix) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, or HK-PSG-1;

`(x) Kel-Tec Sub Rifle;

`(xi) M1 Carbine;

`(xii) Saiga;

`(xiii) SAR-8, SAR-4800;

`(xiv) SKS with detachable magazine;

`(xv) SLG 95;

`(xvi) SLR 95 or 96;

`(xvii) Steyr AUG;

`(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini-14;

`(xix) Tavor;

`(xx) Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or Thompson 1927 Commando;
or

`(xxi) Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil
Sniper Rifle (Galatz).

`(B) The following pistols or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) Calico M-110;

`(ii) MAC-10, MAC-11, or MPA3;

`(iii) Olympic Arms OA;

`(iv) TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10; or

`(v) Uzi.

`(C) The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) Armscor 30 BG;

`(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12;

`(iii) Striker 12; or

`(iv) Streetsweeper.

`(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine, and that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a pistol grip;

`(iv) a forward grip; or

`(v) a barrel shroud.

`(E)(i) Except as provided in clause (ii), a semiautomatic
rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept
more than 10 rounds.

`(ii) Clause (i) shall not apply to an attached tubular
device designed to accept, and capable of operating only
with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

`(F) A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a
detachable magazine, and has--

`(i) a second pistol grip;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a barrel shroud; or

`(iv) the capacity to accept a detachable magazine at a
location outside of the pistol grip.

`(G) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has
the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

`(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a pistol grip;

`(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

`(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds.

`(I) A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based
substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm
described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L).

`(K) A conversion kit.

`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed
for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on
the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly
suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the
Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall
be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use
by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement
agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes,
and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly
suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is
suitable for use in a sporting event.'.

(b) RELATED DEFINITIONS- Section 921(a) of such title is
amended by adding at the end the following:

`(36) BARREL SHROUD- The term `barrel shroud' means a shroud
that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles,
the barrel of a firearm so that the shroud protects the user
of the firearm from heat generated by the barrel, but does
not include a slide that encloses the barrel, and does not
include an extension of the stock along the bottom of the
barrel which does not encircle or substantially encircle the
barrel.

`(37) CONVERSION KIT- The term `conversion kit' means any
part or combination of parts designed and intended for use
in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon,
and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic
assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the
possession or under the control of a person.

`(38) DETACHABLE MAGAZINE- The term `detachable magazine'
means an ammunition feeding device that can readily be
inserted into a firearm.

`(39) FIXED MAGAZINE- The term `fixed magazine' means an
ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently
attached to, a firearm.

`(40) FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK- The term `folding or
telescoping stock' means a stock that folds, telescopes, or
otherwise operates to reduce the length, size, or any other
dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of a
firearm.

`(41) FORWARD GRIP- The term `forward grip' means a grip
located forward of the trigger that functions as a pistol
grip.

`(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a
thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can
function as a grip.

`(43) THREADED BARREL- The term `threaded barrel' means a
feature or characteristic that is designed in such a manner
to allow for the attachment of a firearm as defined in
section 5845(a) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C.
5845(a)).'.

SEC. 3. ELIMINATION OF SUNSET.

Section 110105 of the Public Safety and Recreational
Firearms Protection Act is amended--

(1) by striking `--' and all that follows through `(1)'; and

(2) by striking `; and' and all that follows through `that
date'.

SEC. 4. GRANDFATHER PROVISIONS.

Section 922(v)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is
amended--

(1) by inserting `(A)' after `(2)';

(2) by striking `on the date of the enactment of this
subsection' and inserting `as of September 13, 1994'; and

(3) by adding after and below the end the following:

`(B) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm the
possession or transfer of which would (but for this
subparagraph) be unlawful by reason of this subsection, and
which is otherwise lawfully possessed on the date of the
enactment of this subparagraph.'.

SEC. 5. REPEAL OF CERTAIN EXEMPTIONS.

Section 922(v)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is
amended by striking `(3)' and all that follows through the
end of the first sentence and inserting the following:

`(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm that--

`(A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, level, or slide
action;

`(B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or

`(C) is an antique firearm.'.

SEC. 6. REQUIRING BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR THE TRANSFER OF
LAWFULLY POSSESSED SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Section 922(v) of title 18, United States Code, is amended
by adding at the end the following:

`(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer a
semiautomatic assault weapon to which paragraph (1) does not
apply, except through--

`(A) a licensed dealer, and for purposes of subsection (t)
in the case of such a transfer, the weapon shall be
considered to be transferred from the business inventory of
the licensed dealer and the dealer shall be considered to be
the transferor; or

`(B) a State or local law enforcement agency if the transfer
is made in accordance with the procedures provided for in
subsection (t) of this section and section 923(g).

`(6) The Attorney General shall establish and maintain, in a
timely manner, a record of the make, model, and date of
manufacture of any semiautomatic assault weapon which the
Attorney General is made aware has been used in relation to
a crime under Federal or State law, and the nature and
circumstances of the crime involved, including the outcome
of relevant criminal investigations and proceedings. The
Attorney General shall annually submit the record to the
Congress and make the record available to the general
public.'.

SEC. 7. STRENGTHENING THE BAN ON THE POSSESSION OR TRANSFER
OF A LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE.

(a) BAN ON TRANSFER OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON WITH
LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code,
is amended by inserting at the end the following:

`(z) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer any
assault weapon with a large capacity ammunition feeding
device.'.

(2) PENALTIES- Section 924(a) of title 18, United States
Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(8) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(z) shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years,
or both.'.

(b) CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENT-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 922(w) of title 18, United States
Code, is amended--

(A) in paragraph (2), by striking `on or before the date of
enactment of this subsection' and inserting `in the United
States on or before September 13, 1994';

(B) in paragraph (3)--

(i) by adding `or' at the end of subparagraph (B); and

(ii) by striking subparagraph (C) and redesignating
subparagraph (D) as subparagraph (C); and

(C) by striking paragraph (4) and inserting the following:

`(4) It shall be unlawful for a licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, or licensed dealer who transfers a large
capacity ammunition feeding device that was manufactured on
or before September 13, 1994, to fail to certify to the
Attorney General before the end of the 60-day period that
begins with the date of the transfer, in accordance with
regulations prescribed by the Attorney General, that the
device was manufactured on or before September 13, 1994.'.

(2) PENALTIES- Section 924(a) of title 18, United States
Code, as amended by subsection (a)(2), is further amended by
adding at the end the following:

`(9) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(w)(4) shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.'.

SEC. 8. UNLAWFUL WEAPONS TRANSFERS TO JUVENILES.

Section 922(x) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)--

(A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the period and
inserting a semicolon; and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or

`(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'; and

(2) in paragraph (2)--

(A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the period and
inserting a semicolon; and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or

`(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'.

SEC. 9. BAN ON IMPORTATION OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION
FEEDING DEVICE.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 922(w) of title 18, United States
Code, as amended by section 7(b)(1), is further amended--

(1) in paragraph (1), by striking `(1) Except as provided in
paragraph (2)' and inserting `(1)(A) Except as provided in
subparagraph (B)';

(2) in paragraph (2), by striking `(2) Paragraph (1)' and
inserting `(B) Subparagraph (A)'; and

(3) by inserting before paragraph (3) the following:

`(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to import or bring
into the United States a large capacity ammunition feeding
device.'.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 921(a)(31)(A) of title 18,
United States Code, is amended by striking `manufactured
after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and
Law Enforcement Act of 1994'.



"If ye love wealth better than liberty ... servitude better than ... freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or your arms ... May your
chains set lightly upon you. May posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article , Gunner says...

have detachable magazines like Remington 7600 and the Ruger
rimfire 10.22.

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 26 Jul 2004 07:22:15 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

have detachable magazines like Remington 7600 and the Ruger
rimfire 10.22.

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Jim

Detachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

If there is an aftermarket magazine ever made that will hold more than
10 rds (and there are at least 5 manufactures of such for the 10-22)
even propectivly in the furture..it will meet their version of an
"assault weapon" (which is actually a select fire rifle using an
intermediate cartridge, not a self loading deer rifle) (a select fire
weapon for those who do not know..is a weapon capable of fireing more
than one shot with a single pull of the trigger..programmed bursts,
full auto, etc)

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article , Gunner says...

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Detachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

I think you are misinterpreting the proposed legistlation - here
is the quote from your post:

================================================== =
`(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine, and that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a pistol grip;

`(iv) a forward grip; or

`(v) a barrel shroud.
================================================== ===

The "and" in the first part would seem to imply to me
that a particular model would have to have the detacable
magazine AND any one of the subcatagories underneath.

By my reading a ruger 10-22 would not come under that
bill unless one were to thread the barrel.

I would be interested to see if I've missed something.
Granted laws like this tend to ratchet up over the years
but as written it would not apply to that gun IMO.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Wouldn't it be easier to just dump the worthless constitution at this point?

Joel. phx

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Detachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:08:21 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to just dump the worthless constitution at this point?

Joel. phx

Dump it? Gods no. Simply return to it.

Gunner


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Detachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds.


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

In article , Gunner says...

Dump it? Gods no. Simply return to it.

So, I take if from your lack of response that you can't
figure out if the ruger is or is not covered by this bill?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 26 Jul 2004 18:42:54 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Dump it? Gods no. Simply return to it.

So, I take if from your lack of response that you can't
figure out if the ruger is or is not covered by this bill?

Jim

Correct. Ive read any number of similar bills, so they all tend to
blur together. You are aware that extended magazines are banned?
Anything over 10 rounds including those for 10/22s are illegal to be
sold/given/loaned or imported. All under the Clinton Assault Weapons
Ban umbrella. Which will sunset in 45 or so days.

Except in California, which has their own version which is even more
draconian.

Something Ive found, you may find of interest
http://www.fact-index.com/a/as/assau...ban__usa_.html

and
http://www.leaa.org/Gun%20and%20Maga...zinebanma.html
http://www.leaa.org/Shield%202003/shield2003sunset.html

From the cops point of view....


Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On 26 Jul 2004 12:06:01 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

OK oh great interpreter of regulatory blather,
where does the ruger come under the cover of
this bill?

Detachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

I think you are misinterpreting the proposed legistlation - here
is the quote from your post:

================================================= ==
`(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine, and that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a pistol grip;

`(iv) a forward grip; or

`(v) a barrel shroud.
================================================= ====

The "and" in the first part would seem to imply to me
that a particular model would have to have the detacable
magazine AND any one of the subcatagories underneath.

By my reading a ruger 10-22 would not come under that
bill unless one were to thread the barrel.

I would be interested to see if I've missed something.
Granted laws like this tend to ratchet up over the years
but as written it would not apply to that gun IMO.

Jim

A plain-Jane 10-22 stock has a pistol grip as opposed to a Winchester
Model 94 with a straight stock.

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message
...

A plain-Jane 10-22 stock has a pistol grip as opposed to a Winchester
Model 94 with a straight stock.

I don't think they're talking about that type of pistol grip, Andy. They're
talking about the kind that's on an M-16.

We got into that argument here in NJ when our "assault weapons" ban was
being fought out, over a decade ago. I don't recall if the language was
changed to clarify the point or not, but it was obvious from talking to them
that the state legislatures intended the type of grip that's almost
separated from the buttstock.

Ed Huntress

In article , Gunner says...

Correct. Ive read any number of similar bills, so they all tend to
blur together. You are aware that extended magazines are banned?

Extended *detachable* magazines, by that bill. Tubular integral
magazines seem to be excepted.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 27 Jul 2004 08:45:01 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Correct. Ive read any number of similar bills, so they all tend to
blur together. You are aware that extended magazines are banned?

Extended *detachable* magazines, by that bill. Tubular integral
magazines seem to be excepted.

Jim


But only if they hold .22 long rifle rounds.

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous than
15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:00:39 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:08:21 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to just dump the worthless constitution at this
point?

Joel. phx

Dump it? Gods no. Simply return to it.

Dump it. Then we could get the government to do something about all the
evil off-topic posts.

Thats what filters are for you if dont like them.

Joel. phx

And there's all that treasonous talk on this group against the government to
be dealt with.

Talk against the government was not only permitted by the Founders,
but encouraged.

Gunner



Gunner


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

In article , Gunner says...

Correct. Ive read any number of similar bills, so they all tend to
blur together. You are aware that extended magazines are banned?

Extended *detachable* magazines, by that bill. Tubular integral
magazines seem to be excepted.

Jim


But only if they hold .22 long rifle rounds.

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous than
15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

Gunner

I guess there could be a market for belt fed rifles if this law passes,
how about conversion kit for the existing rifles ?
Who needs magazine when you can have a 1000 round belt and it would
be legal.

Best Regards
Tom.

In article , Gunner says...

But only if they hold .22 long rifle rounds.

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous than
15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

Well I guess you've hit the nail on the head. The folks drafting
the legislation simply aren't too bright. They just want to
get something out there to show they "care." Echos of the
nuke power thread....

I get the impression you would not be adverse to reasonable
time, place, and manner restricions on weapons ownership, if
only we could find some smart politicians to do it. And
an assurance that they'd stay smart.

sigh

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I guess there could be a market for belt fed rifles if this law passes,
how about conversion kit for the existing rifles ?
Who needs magazine when you can have a 1000 round belt and it would
be legal.

Best Regards
Tom.

Many places, like here in MA, consider belts or links thereof to be high-cap
feeding devices.

I think someone a couple years ago made an AR-15 upper that took a belt.

GTO(John)

Gunner wrote:

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous
than 15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

My first .22 was a tube mag. Didn't take long to make up a bunch of
speedloaders. Not as fast as swapping magazines, but pretty darn
quick...

Jon

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Dump it. Then we could get the government to do something about all the
evil off-topic posts.

Thats what filters are for you if dont like them.

That's what different GROUPS are for. If 'I' don't like them? Why don't
you respect other readers?


Joel. phx

And there's all that treasonous talk on this group against the government
to
be dealt with.

Talk against the government was not only permitted by the Founders,
but encouraged.

And look, they're dead. Funny you respect the founding fathers of the
country, but not of the newsgroup.

Joel. phx


Gunner

In article , Jon Anderson says...

Gunner wrote:

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous
than 15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

My first .22 was a tube mag. Didn't take long to make up a bunch of
speedloaders. Not as fast as swapping magazines, but pretty darn
quick...

Hmm. What's the best way to make tubular magazine speedloaders?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:46:12 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message
.. .

A plain-Jane 10-22 stock has a pistol grip as opposed to a Winchester
Model 94 with a straight stock.

I don't think they're talking about that type of pistol grip, Andy. They're
talking about the kind that's on an M-16.

We got into that argument here in NJ when our "assault weapons" ban was
being fought out, over a decade ago. I don't recall if the language was
changed to clarify the point or not, but it was obvious from talking to them
that the state legislatures intended the type of grip that's almost
separated from the buttstock.

Ed Huntress


That is the problem with all restrictive laws. The next regime may
interpret them differently to suit their own agenda.

The thing that galls me is that it doesn't effect how lethal the
firearm is. I really get tired of the chipping away of rights that
don't reduce crime. I know, that is what the antigun side hopes for.
Sometimes, I wish for a definitive Supreme Court decision. Then we
could have the inevitable revolution.

Jim,

I got ahold of some fairly thin wall steel tubing with just about the
same OD as the magazine tube. Welded plugs in one end. Other end, I
chamfered a bit on a belt sander, to help center up in the magazine
tube. Cut a slot about 1/4" back from this end, about 1/2 way through
the tube. Bent a narrow piece of sheetmetal about an inch or so long,
with about a 3/16" lip at one end. This fits into the slot. Tack welded
the other end, allowing it to be pulled back far enough to allow
cartridges to pass through.
Of course, the speedloaders take just as long to load as the magazine
itself. But in the field, it does allow for a pretty rapid reload. I had
some jeans at the time with a deep narrow pocked on the side of one leg.
Just about right to hold half a dozen loaders.

Jon

In article , Jon Anderson says...

Jim,

I got ahold of some fairly thin wall steel tubing with just about the
same OD as the magazine tube. Welded plugs in one end. Other end, I
chamfered a bit on a belt sander, to help center up in the magazine
tube. Cut a slot about 1/4" back from this end, about 1/2 way through
the tube. Bent a narrow piece of sheetmetal about an inch or so long,
with about a 3/16" lip at one end. This fits into the slot. Tack welded
the other end, allowing it to be pulled back far enough to allow
cartridges to pass through.
Of course, the speedloaders take just as long to load as the magazine
itself. But in the field, it does allow for a pretty rapid reload. I had
some jeans at the time with a deep narrow pocked on the side of one leg.
Just about right to hold half a dozen loaders.

Ah, so this loads into the end of the rifle magazine, yes?

I'm trying to figure out a way to load five rounds at a time
into the .22 shaped slot part way down the magazine tube,
that typically gets a single round at a time stuffed in.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:

Ah, so this loads into the end of the rifle magazine, yes?

Yes, I'd pull the inner tube/spring loaded follower completely out,
allowing a quick dump of cartridges into the magazine.

I'm trying to figure out a way to load five rounds at a time
into the .22 shaped slot part way down the magazine tube,
that typically gets a single round at a time stuffed in.

Hmm, that could be an interesting challenge!

Jon

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:27:54 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

Dump it. Then we could get the government to do something about all the
evil off-topic posts.

Thats what filters are for you if dont like them.

That's what different GROUPS are for. If 'I' don't like them? Why don't
you respect other readers?

Which readers? The ones that agree with me, or the ones that dont?


Joel. phx

And there's all that treasonous talk on this group against the government
to
be dealt with.

Talk against the government was not only permitted by the Founders,
but encouraged.

And look, they're dead. Funny you respect the founding fathers of the
country, but not of the newsgroup.

Joel. phx


Gunner


When the members of this newsgroup form a new nation, we can discuss
you blather you just posted, pratt.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On 28 Jul 2004 07:20:18 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

But only if they hold .22 long rifle rounds.

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous than
15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

Well I guess you've hit the nail on the head. The folks drafting
the legislation simply aren't too bright. They just want to
get something out there to show they "care." Echos of the
nuke power thread....

I get the impression you would not be adverse to reasonable
time, place, and manner restricions on weapons ownership, if
only we could find some smart politicians to do it. And
an assurance that they'd stay smart.

sigh

Jim

You are going to have to define your restrictions. If you are saying
that mentally ill, felons and the very young should not be allowed
firms on their persons, Id agree.

If you are saying that all other law abiding adults should have their
rights to carry small arms of any style curtailed, no, I would not
agree.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On 28 Jul 2004 13:18:02 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Jon Anderson says...

Gunner wrote:

I guess 15 rds of ammo in a tube magazine is far less dangerous
than 15 rds of ammo in a box magazine.

My first .22 was a tube mag. Didn't take long to make up a bunch of
speedloaders. Not as fast as swapping magazines, but pretty darn
quick...

Hmm. What's the best way to make tubular magazine speedloaders?

Jim

Tubing with a plug on one end and a cork in the other. Years ago a
company made a quiver looking affair with a number of brass then
plastic tubes that could singly be drawn, and used to fill a tube
magazine rapidly.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:27:07 GMT, Andy Asberry
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:46:12 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message
. ..

A plain-Jane 10-22 stock has a pistol grip as opposed to a Winchester
Model 94 with a straight stock.

I don't think they're talking about that type of pistol grip, Andy. They're
talking about the kind that's on an M-16.

We got into that argument here in NJ when our "assault weapons" ban was
being fought out, over a decade ago. I don't recall if the language was
changed to clarify the point or not, but it was obvious from talking to them
that the state legislatures intended the type of grip that's almost
separated from the buttstock.

Ed Huntress


That is the problem with all restrictive laws. The next regime may
interpret them differently to suit their own agenda.

The thing that galls me is that it doesn't effect how lethal the
firearm is. I really get tired of the chipping away of rights that
don't reduce crime. I know, that is what the antigun side hopes for.
Sometimes, I wish for a definitive Supreme Court decision. Then we
could have the inevitable revolution.

Will a current Federal court help?

http://www.mcsm.org/indivright.html

Might want to review the other 35 SCOTUS affirmations of the 2nd
http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/35FinalPartOne.htm

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

In article , Gunner says...

I get the impression you would not be adverse to reasonable
time, place, and manner restricions on weapons ownership, if
only we could find some smart politicians to do it. And
an assurance that they'd stay smart.

sigh

Jim

You are going to have to define your restrictions. If you are saying
that mentally ill, felons and the very young should not be allowed
firms on their persons, Id agree.

If you are saying that all other law abiding adults should have their
rights to carry small arms of any style curtailed, no, I would not
agree.

It's like the old joke, we're just haggling about the price.

It isn't that you are trying to *define* the restrictions,
it's the idea that you are willing to consider that there
should be some restrictions at all. That puts you in the
'sane' catagory in my book.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Hmm. What's the best way to make tubular magazine speedloaders?

Tubing with a plug on one end and a cork in the other. Years ago a
company made a quiver looking affair with a number of brass then
plastic tubes that could singly be drawn, and used to fill a tube
magazine rapidly.

Maybe you missed my follow on post to another, but what I'm
after here is a way to load only five rounds (the range where
I shoot wants this) through the loading gate in the magazine,
without pulling the tube and follower out all the way.

Basically something that would allow me scoop up five rounds
from bulk ammo, and hold the widget up to the loading
gate and drop them in. Some way to either re-orient the
ones pointing the wrong way, or to reject them from
the scoop.

Sort of a scoop that attaches to a short rectangular block
that has its end profiled to a radius that matches the
magazine diameter.

Basically I'm upset that my daughter can load a bunch of
five round magazines for her marlin and keep on shooting
while I have to fiddle with dropping five rounds at a time
into the lever gun.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 30 Jul 2004 08:35:15 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Hmm. What's the best way to make tubular magazine speedloaders?

Tubing with a plug on one end and a cork in the other. Years ago a
company made a quiver looking affair with a number of brass then
plastic tubes that could singly be drawn, and used to fill a tube
magazine rapidly.

Maybe you missed my follow on post to another, but what I'm
after here is a way to load only five rounds (the range where
I shoot wants this) through the loading gate in the magazine,
without pulling the tube and follower out all the way.

Basically something that would allow me scoop up five rounds
from bulk ammo, and hold the widget up to the loading
gate and drop them in. Some way to either re-orient the
ones pointing the wrong way, or to reject them from
the scoop.

Sort of a scoop that attaches to a short rectangular block
that has its end profiled to a radius that matches the
magazine diameter.

Basically I'm upset that my daughter can load a bunch of
five round magazines for her marlin and keep on shooting
while I have to fiddle with dropping five rounds at a time
into the lever gun.

Jim

Jim, you are a clever enough fellow to figure out the spring loaded
plunger part of this. What you need is a way to orient the cartridges
in front of the plunger.

Think roofer. They use the aluminum ticklers to dispense roofing
nails. A tapered container with a slot large enough to let the shell
drop through but not the rim would automatically line up the
cartridges for injection. The length of stroke of your plunger would
determine the number of shells loaded.

You may have to turn off your porn filter for the previous paragraph.

Nice name calling Mark, that's classic.

Funny the founders didn't name the group
rec.crafts.postanycrapbutmetalworking.

It's obvious that doesn't matter to you from the screw everybody else
attitude in your last post. Sounding a little like Richard,...

Joel. phx

There's three HUNDRED groups with 'politics' in the name for people that are
into that crap.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:27:54 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote: Nothing but crap

On 30 Jul 2004 08:35:15 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Hmm. What's the best way to make tubular magazine speedloaders?

Tubing with a plug on one end and a cork in the other. Years ago a
company made a quiver looking affair with a number of brass then
plastic tubes that could singly be drawn, and used to fill a tube
magazine rapidly.

Maybe you missed my follow on post to another, but what I'm
after here is a way to load only five rounds (the range where
I shoot wants this) through the loading gate in the magazine,
without pulling the tube and follower out all the way.

Basically something that would allow me scoop up five rounds
from bulk ammo, and hold the widget up to the loading
gate and drop them in. Some way to either re-orient the
ones pointing the wrong way, or to reject them from
the scoop.

Sort of a scoop that attaches to a short rectangular block
that has its end profiled to a radius that matches the
magazine diameter.

Basically I'm upset that my daughter can load a bunch of
five round magazines for her marlin and keep on shooting
while I have to fiddle with dropping five rounds at a time
into the lever gun.

Jim


Hell Jim..thats easy. Simply cut a tube on the diagnal..perhaps about
5 degrees. Put a pin through the tube just above this point, and fill
the tube with cartridges. Place the diagnal cut against the slot in
the tube, and pull the pin retaining the cartridges. If you use a
piece of .375 ID tubing, it should match up with the magazine tube
quite well.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:42:11 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote:

Nice name calling Mark, that's classic.

Which name did I call you? Or do you have a reading comprehension
issue that needs dealing with?


Funny the founders didn't name the group
rec.crafts.postanycrapbutmetalworking.

Funny, the Founders didnt make you Net Nanny either. Are you applying
for the job of newsgroup Moderator? Pay sucks from what I understand,
but you can play God to your hearts content.

It's obvious that doesn't matter to you from the screw everybody else
attitude in your last post. Sounding a little like Richard,...

Joel. phx

Ah no Joel..it was mostly a Screw YOU in that last post.

There's three HUNDRED groups with 'politics' in the name for people that are
into that crap.

Yes there are. And perhaps more with porn orientation. So?

Oh..ya..I forgot..you are one of those anal types who wants everyone
to dance to your particular music.

Bummer..must really suck to be so frustrated all the time. Perhaps you
might either want to have your keepers show you how to killfile by OT
or by my email addy etc. Assuming you havent commanded them to drink
the purple koolaid yet.

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:27:54 -0700, "Joel Corwith"
wrote: Nothing but crap

And once again..Joel posts crap. Shrug.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

Jim,

My post scrolled off the server, but I think at the bottom of that post
I mentioned speedloaders for your rig would be a challenge.

Gunner's suggestion would likely work as long as the cartridges will all
fall through smoothly. Any attempt to push a stack into the tube is
going to result in the first round being pushed against the side of the
tube by the next round, preventing it from sliding down the tube. Might
just take gravity and a little gentle shaking to make it work.

My suggestion is to convince your daughter that tube magazines are
vastly superior, and as a caring father, you'd be willing to swap your
beloved rifle for hers. G

Jon

In article , Jon Anderson says...

My suggestion is to convince your daughter that tube magazines are
vastly superior, and as a caring father, you'd be willing to swap your
beloved rifle for hers. G

Like that'll happen in a million years. She's quite taken with
her gun, and not to be trite about it, I think I'd have to
pry it from ....

Worst part is now my wife's shot the 9422. And has taken
an extreme liking to it. A guy just can't get ahead.

Jim

-- Sig --
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:

A guy just can't get ahead.

Well, the women in your life like guns. It really could be a lot worse!
G

Jon

I just read the entire text of this post, and I personally find the
proposed law a little too restrictive for some areas of the country, but
otherwise quite reasonable and a step in the right direction at least.
The 2nd amendment is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves
and their family in the event of a hostile attack on their person or B&E
of their home. It's a law to allow a family home or a person at risk of
attack to have a conventional non-combat firearm, primarily for self
defense. At the time, people also hunted for food, which can also be
accomplished with civilian weaponry.

I do not believe the writers of the second amendment ever dreamed of men
gunning down deer with AK-47s for sport, 12 year olds peppering each
other in city streets with Mac-10s or men wishing to defend their home
with semi-auto shotguns loaded with flechette rounds or incendiaries, or
whatever other perverse **** is out there.

I personally feel that a serious assement of some sort is needed,
because the right to bear arms is being grossly abused.

-Adam

Do you own firearms?
Senator John Kerry is a co sponsor on S1431 along with Feinstein,
Ted Kennedy, and Charles Schumer . This Bill will outlaw ALL semi
auto shotguns, ALL semi auto center fire and rimfire rifles that
have detachable magazines like Remington 7600 and the Ruger
rimfire 10.22.

The Bill will also ban a lot of other firearms that have been
newly newly determined to be assault weapons. Of course Kerry and
his ilk will determine which guns fit their criteria.

Do you still intend to vote for John Kerry? After all he said he
supports the Second Amendment.
-------------------------------------------------

Here's the full text of HR 2038:


Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of
2003 (Introduced in Senate)

Adam Smith wrote in message ...
I just read the entire text of this post, and I personally find the
proposed law a little too restrictive for some areas of the country, but
otherwise quite reasonable and a step in the right direction at least.
The 2nd amendment is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves
and their family in the event of a hostile attack on their person or B&E
of their home. It's a law to allow a family home or a person at risk of
attack to have a conventional non-combat firearm, primarily for self
defense. At the time, people also hunted for food, which can also be
accomplished with civilian weaponry.

I do not believe the writers of the second amendment ever dreamed of men
gunning down deer with AK-47s for sport, 12 year olds peppering each
other in city streets with Mac-10s or men wishing to defend their home
with semi-auto shotguns loaded with flechette rounds or incendiaries, or
whatever other perverse **** is out there.

I personally feel that a serious assement of some sort is needed,
because the right to bear arms is being grossly abused.

-Adam

Adam, don't you realize that a well aimed shot from a muzzle loader
can be equally as effective as the fire power of any semi-automatic
weapon. (The problem is is that relatively few people today are
excellent marksmen.)

Then too, the Framers of the Constition believed that the real risks
stemmed from a government that had abandoned the will of the people
and became too powerful.

Ask yourself this question: What weapons are in use by the government
forces today, and what weapons would be required today to neutralize
this advantage?

I doubt that you would conclude that a .50-Cal. muzzle loader would be
adequate to even stand a chance, or a bolt action rifle either for
that matter.

These are the issues that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution
addresses, like it or not!

Also, realize that one of the first actions of a totalitarian regime
is to effectively disarm any opposition. That, in itelf, it a concept
that is to me more frightening than any risks associated with
individual gun ownership.

Harry C.

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 10:10:43 GMT, Adam Smith wrote:


I just read the entire text of this post, and I personally find the
proposed law a little too restrictive for some areas of the country, but
otherwise quite reasonable and a step in the right direction at least.
The 2nd amendment is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves
and their family in the event of a hostile attack on their person or B&E
of their home. It's a law to allow a family home or a person at risk of
attack to have a conventional non-combat firearm, primarily for self
defense. At the time, people also hunted for food, which can also be
accomplished with civilian weaponry.

I do not believe the writers of the second amendment ever dreamed of men
gunning down deer with AK-47s for sport, 12 year olds peppering each
other in city streets with Mac-10s or men wishing to defend their home
with semi-auto shotguns loaded with flechette rounds or incendiaries, or
whatever other perverse **** is out there.

I personally feel that a serious assement of some sort is needed,
because the right to bear arms is being grossly abused.

-Adam


Hint..Adam. The Second Amendment isnt about deer hunting. Its about
having military arms capable of removing a tyrannical government.
Need the cites?

Btw..your right to free speech is being grossly abused, so shut the
**** up.

G

Gunner


Do you own firearms?
Senator John Kerry is a co sponsor on S1431 along with Feinstein,
Ted Kennedy, and Charles Schumer . This Bill will outlaw ALL semi
auto shotguns, ALL semi auto center fire and rimfire rifles that
have detachable magazines like Remington 7600 and the Ruger
rimfire 10.22.

The Bill will also ban a lot of other firearms that have been
newly newly determined to be assault weapons. Of course Kerry and
his ilk will determine which guns fit their criteria.

Do you still intend to vote for John Kerry? After all he said he
supports the Second Amendment.
-------------------------------------------------

Here's the full text of HR 2038:


Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of
2003 (Introduced in Senate)

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On 2 Aug 2004 09:24:21 -0700, (Harry Conover) wrote:

Adam Smith wrote in message ...
I just read the entire text of this post, and I personally find the
proposed law a little too restrictive for some areas of the country, but
otherwise quite reasonable and a step in the right direction at least.
The 2nd amendment is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves
and their family in the event of a hostile attack on their person or B&E
of their home. It's a law to allow a family home or a person at risk of
attack to have a conventional non-combat firearm, primarily for self
defense. At the time, people also hunted for food, which can also be
accomplished with civilian weaponry.

I do not believe the writers of the second amendment ever dreamed of men
gunning down deer with AK-47s for sport, 12 year olds peppering each
other in city streets with Mac-10s or men wishing to defend their home
with semi-auto shotguns loaded with flechette rounds or incendiaries, or
whatever other perverse **** is out there.

I personally feel that a serious assement of some sort is needed,
because the right to bear arms is being grossly abused.

-Adam

Adam, don't you realize that a well aimed shot from a muzzle loader
can be equally as effective as the fire power of any semi-automatic
weapon. (The problem is is that relatively few people today are
excellent marksmen.)

Then too, the Framers of the Constition believed that the real risks
stemmed from a government that had abandoned the will of the people
and became too powerful.

Ask yourself this question: What weapons are in use by the government
forces today, and what weapons would be required today to neutralize
this advantage?

I doubt that you would conclude that a .50-Cal. muzzle loader would be
adequate to even stand a chance, or a bolt action rifle either for
that matter.

These are the issues that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution
addresses, like it or not!

Also, realize that one of the first actions of a totalitarian regime
is to effectively disarm any opposition. That, in itelf, it a concept
that is to me more frightening than any risks associated with
individual gun ownership.

Harry C.


http://www.jpfo.org/deathgc.htm

Indeed Harry is quite right.

And to answer the first sentence in Adams post...Rights are not
regionally dependant, least of all Constitutional ones. Or is ok to
stand on a soapbox in San Francisco, but not in Portland?

"you are now entering Sector 7. Please leave your Bibles,periodicals
and other printed materials or computer media at the Censors Desk for
inspection"

Hummm I didnt notice if Adam was posting from Canada or the UK, where
censorship is indeed rampant and legal.....

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke