On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 00:51:24 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

tschus
pyotr


When loaded with a FMJ bullet..the 30 Carbine isnt much of a combat let
along a self defense weapon.

HOWEVER!

When its loaded with a soft point or hollow point..it becomes a VERY
effective short range weapon against unarmored human targets. Very
effective. Its also a rather decent pistol cartridge as well, when
loaded with expanding bullets of the same sorts. Ruger and AMT made
revolvers and self loaders that are highly sought after.



When using modern HPs in the .30 Carbine vs FMJ in the 5.56?


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...286-722135_ITM

SHOOTERS SEEKING A HIGH-PERFORMANCE TACTICAL CARBINE WITHOUT A HIGH-TECH
PRICE TAG ARE REDISCOVERING THIS VERSATILE, VINTAGE FIREARM.

Police agencies and armed citizens need a good long arm to supplement
their handgun for defensive purposes. There are very few situations
where a person is better off defending himself with a handgun than a
good long gun, if the latter is available.

Here the definition of long gun is a shoulder-fired weapon like a rifle,
carbine, submachine gun, assault rifle or shotgun. There is a readily
available, often overlooked long gun that is superb for this purpose
that can out-perform most of its high-tech, expensive competition -- the
M1 carbine.

In recent years the traditional shotgun has been losing favor with both
police and civilians for defensive use. The reasons for this include
excessive recoil, a high degree of proficiency in operation, potential
collateral damage from the buckshot pattern, and the limited effective
range with buckshot.

In answer, many departments, individual officers and armed civilians
have turned to semi-automatic rifles or carbines in either pistol
calibers or .223 for use as tactical long guns. Some law enforcement
agencies have turned to submachine guns.

All of these guns offer improved ballistic performance and practical
accuracy over a handgun. However, none of the pistol-caliber carbines or
submachine guns are nearly as effective as the old and often unfairly
maligned .30 Ml carbine.

With proper ammunition, the M1 carbine can easily compete in
effectiveness with .223-chambered weapons out to at least 150 yards, and
few police or civilians have any business shooting at anybody farther
away than that.

In addition, the M1 carbine weighs only 5 1/2 lbs., making it a pound or
more lighter than most of its competition, including even the
pistol-caliber carbines, and considerably lighter than many like the UZI
submachine gun at 8.8 lbs. or the M16A2 at 7.9 lbs.

Born Far Combat

The M1 carbine has many other assets as well. It has superb reliability
under the worst field conditions. Its accuracy exceeds that of virtually
all the pistol-caliber carbines and submachine guns on the market and is
comparable with that of many of the semi-automatic .223 rifles.

Another huge advantage for the M1 carbine is that, unlike most modern
firearms, it has pre-ban high capacity 15- and 30-round magazines
readily available in quantity at very modest prices. The same holds true
for spare parts and accessories.

Ballistically, the M1 carbine's little .30 Carbine cartridge packs about
2.5 times the kinetic energy of a standard .45 ACP or 9mm load fired
from a pistol. This is solidly in the energy territory of the .44 Mag.
revolver. Indeed it has only 90 ft./lbs. less energy at the muzzle than
the Russian 5.45x39mm cartridge and is only a little farther behind the
..223 when fired from 14.5" or 16" barreled carbines.

Options And Tactics

Although a cartridge's muzzle energy is not the sole criterion for
measuring its effectiveness, it is a good indication of the cartridge's
potential if it is loaded with properly designed expanding bullets. With
military-type FMJ bullets, the .30 Carbine will drill right through car
bodies and such.

This capability is highly desirable to police officers in many
situations. When the .30 Carbine cartridge is loaded with expanding
bullets, its effectiveness as a manstopper increases exponentially. One
police unit used M1 carbines loaded with JSPs in several shootings. They
found the carbines to be extremely effective. Quoting one of their more
experienced officers about the results from shootings with a .30 Carbine
using expanding bullet ammunition, "We never had to shoot anyone twice."

Out to at least 150 yards, the .30 Carbine cartridge usually makes a
more serious wound than does the .223, .308 or .30-'06, when the latter
are used with FMJ bullets. It is also greatly superior to any of the
common defensive pistol rounds fired from a handgun or carbine, even
when the latter uses hollow point ammunition.

Even the FMJ .30 Carbine load is far more effective than is commonly
thought. After interviewing many veteran M1 carbine users from World War
II, Korea and Vietnam, we found that the vast majority of these soldiers
found the M1 carbine to be quite effective even with GI ball ammunition.

One former Marine who saw extensive combat with the MI carbine in the
Pacific in World War II was quite emphatic that the little gun and its
cartridge were effective in the close-range combat that he experienced.
He also stated that he greatly preferred the M1 carbine to the Garand
for that type of fighting because of its much lighter weight, shorter
length and higher magazine capacity.

First-Hand Experience

Another veteran M1 carbine user interviewed was a U.S. Army Special
Forces adviser in the early days of the Vietnam War. He had advised
indigenous units armed almost exclusively with M1 carbines, and used the
gun extensively himself in combat. He stated that the M1 carbine was
very effective in the jungle combat that they typically experienced.
Interestingly, he said that when M16s eventually replaced the M1
carbines, he found that the new gun offered little if any significant
advantage in effectiveness over the older M1 carbines.

Probably the most authoritative account of the effectiveness of the M1
carbine in real combat comes from the superb book Shots Fired In Anger
by John George. George served as a company grade officer in World War II
in the famous Merrill's Marauders, operating behind Japanese lines.
George was a highly experienced and successful service rifle competitor,
shooter and hunter before the war, so all of his writing is from the
perspective of someone highly knowledgeable about guns.

The M1 carbine was his primary weapon in the Marauders. The light weight
of the carbine and its ammunition made it ideal for troops like the
Marauders that carried all their supplies and equipment with them and
were re-supplied by airdrops. His book covers several instances where he
personally used or observed M1 carbines employed with great effect.

George reports, "The M1 carbine turned out to be the ace weapon of the
war, as far as I am concerned. It was light and handy, powerful, and
reasonably accurate ... The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate
several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the
Japanese bulletproof vest, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs.
It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than 200
yards ... For many types of offensive fighting, such as sneak raids and
infiltration tactics, it was often superior even to the M1 (Garand),
penetration being the only point of difference."

Full-Auto Follies

Late in World War II a selective-fire version of the M1 carbine was
introduced as the M2 carbine. These saw little use in World War II, but
were extensively used in Korea. Many of the accounts about the
ineffectiveness of the .30 Carbine round come from improper and
ineffective use of the M2 carbine on full auto.

Typically, the soldier or Marine dumped an entire magazine on full auto
at a charging enemy with little or no effect. The probable truth is that
in most instances it was ineffective because he simply missed. When
firing the M2, if the first shot does not hit, none of the following
shots will hit either, because the weapon will quickly climb off target,
particularly with a long burst. The idea that anyone could absorb a
magazine full of .30 Carbine bullets through the chest and keep coming
is a myth born of bad shooting.

One must remember that these accounts are all about the M1 or M2 carbine
using standard GI hardball ammunition. When this weapon is used with
modern expanding bullets, its effectiveness against soft targets is
increased considerably. One of the best .30 Carbine loads is the
Winchester HSP. It is very accurate, feeding and expanding superbly and
reliably.

A Cost Effective Warrior

An important asset of the Ml carbine is that two or three M1 carbines
can be purchased for the price of one AR-15 or MP5 submachine gun. An
affordable M1 carbine is worth more than all the expensive
state-of-the-art rifles that you do not have when you need them, because
you cannot afford them.

Something else in the Ml carbine's favor compared to all the submachine
guns and rifles based on military assault rifles, is that it is
relatively innocuous looking. Police do not like to be perceived as
storm troopers, and the M1 carbine is much less likely to cause that
impression than an AR-15 or an MP5,

The Ml carbine is too good a gun to be overlooked. Several hundred
thousand of them are in circulation in the U.S., and many can be
purchased at very reasonable prices. Israeli Arms International (IAI)
and Springfield Inc. are currently offering excellent M1 carbines made
to GI specifications using surplus military M1 carbine parts. Many more
surplus Ml carbines are standing offshore, waiting to be imported into
the U.S. under a favorable political climate.

For defensive fighting purposes typically encountered by police and
armed civilians, an AR-15 or one of its better clones is perhaps
preferable to the Ml carbine, if both are used with expanding bulleted
ammunition. However, the Ml carbine with expanding bullet ammunition is
more effective than any .223 rifle loaded with GI handball or any
submachine gun or semiautomatic pistol-caliber carbine on the market.
The Ml carbine is that good!


COPYRIGHT 2001 Publishers' Development Corporation"
--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.