I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

David

In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

Joe Gwinn

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

The difference in power is huge. When I was a kid in PA, the .30 cal. M1
carbine was not legal for deer hunting, because it was underpowered. No .22
centerfires were allowed, either.

Here's an interesting anecdote, which I didn't see in the HBO series "The
Pacific," which otherwise was almost the exact story my dad told me about
WWII in the South Pacific. My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress



I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

Joe Gwinn

On Jul 21, 10:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress

AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 10:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...My dad was a sergeant in the First Marine
Division, first landing at Guadalcanal, and all that.

They were issued '03 Springfields, not M1 Garands (my dad had a Thompson
after the first day -- there were plenty of them lying in the hands of
dead
Marines). Anyway, after they'd been there a few weeks, they got a shipment
of M1 carbines. The Marines in his unit -- I don't know if this was at the
platoon level or above -- tried them out for three days. Then they walked
down to the beach and threw them in the ocean.

In "The Pacific," there were plenty of M1 Garands at Guadalcanal, as well
as
some carbines. But my dad told me they never got Garands until they
shipped
out of Guadalcanal. They were using '03s and Thompsons until they left.

--
Ed Huntress

AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw

Yeah, my dad said that it was the army that had the Garands, until after the
Marines left Guadalcanal. But some Marine units there may well have had
them. He was talking about his unit, without specifying what he meant by
that.

BTW, I shot M1 carbines in an organized competition that was co-sponsored by
the NRA and the Police Athletic League. I was 13 at the time, and it was
called the "Junior DCM." I don't know what involvement the DCM had, except
to supply us with beat-up carbines and free ammo.

I recall the first time we shot them outdoors, at 50 yards. I had three or
four Sharpshooter bars by that time with small bore rifles, but I shot one
of the carbines prone at 50 yd. and shots were scattered all over the paper.
I never grew to like that gun at all.

--
Ed Huntress

On Jul 21, 10:36*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
AFAIK the Army arrived with Garands in October 1942, and used them in
the assault on Mt Wilson, but the fierce early fighting was
Springfield vs Arisaka.

jsw-

Mt Austen, not Wilson. I shouldn't post from memory, but Google isn't
very much help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_... he_Sea_Horse
I was trying to find when Carlson's Second Marine Raiders received
Garands.
http://www.janeresture.com/carlson_about/index.htm
Gung Ho = work together, from Mao via Carlson.

jsw

Joseph Gwinn on Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:42:44 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
In article ,
"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 7/21/2011 7:10 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

From a letter in the link above:

"In Korea, troops found that carbine bullets often failed to penetrate
heavy winter clothing worn by Chinese soldiers."

Not a bullet from a Garand, but from am M1 carbine. Many rear echelon
troops armed with carbines ended up in combat in Korea.

I did read that letter later. I didn't realize that there is that much
difference between M1 carbine and M1 garand. But it's still a firearm,
and I have to think that range matters.

I did some research. Apparently the limitations of the M1 carbine are
well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine.

The Garand was a battle rifle, using the full up 30-06 round. The
Carbine was a real hot pistol round, and beat having no gun at all.
And in properly trained hands, could do the job of stopping the enemy.
Maybe not as well as a belt-fed Sarge, but ...
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:10:13 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

1950 Chinese winter clothings, base on what I've seen in contemporary
rural China, was probably really, really thick due to use of
rudimentary materials and crude construction. Their toddlers are
usually rosy-cheeked from being overheated.

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a M1
bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.

--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:54:24 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Jul 22, 3:32*am, CaveLamb wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
...
That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.
Richard Lamb

It apparently evolved from this, a marginally effective deer cartridge
(as is the current .223):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-40_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32-20_Winchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_Win...r_Self-Loading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1905
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

jsw

CaveLamb on Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:32:22 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Don Foreman wrote:

I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.

The garand and the carbine were both known as M1 but very different in
capability. Your impression of the M1 carbine is correct -- a bit
better than a pistol but it was no rifle.

That's what I thought, Don.
It was intended to be a high power accurate PISTOL (replacement).
It was never intended to compete with the Garand as a real rifle.

OTOH, I recall reading that it was Audie Murphy's preferred
weapon.

"Man finds a lot of virtues in a weapon does that." Said by a
soon to be minted 2LT, on hearing that a weapon he had disparaged had
save the life of the Vet he was talking with.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"We don't support "guns" ... the term "gun" gets in the way of
what is really being talked about here - we want choice in
personal security devices." Ann Coulter

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:54:24 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I found the letter "This is my rifle" to the editor of Machine Design
interesting. Published in the 7 July 2011 issue.

http://machinedesign.com/article/letters-7072011-0707

I had to look bullpup up. Turns out there is a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup.


I really have to wonder if Chinese winter clothing really can stop a
M1 bullet, except perhaps at extreme range, where the bullet's kinetic
energy is already mostly gone.


Joe Gwinn

Not a surprise. The .30 carbine round is half as powerful as a 30-30
round and is just a bit better than a .357 magnum pistol round.

The M1 Garand on the other hand uses a 30-06 round. 3+ times as powerful
and far more accurate.



I was under the impression that the M1 was intended as a replacement
for a pistol - not for long range shooting.


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

On Jul 23, 7:30*pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

I remember it as a replacement for the pistol for officers in fighting
units.

Dan

On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:01:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 23, 7:30*pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


As I remember it, the originally stated reason was that the carbine
was a replacement for rear echelon troops who had previously been
issued the Colt 1911 as it was proving difficult, or impossible, to
train troops to be even marginally effective with the 1911 in a
reasonable length of time.

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

I remember it as a replacement for the pistol for officers in fighting
units.

Dan

could have been. I was quoting from something I read when they first
issued the things. Stated to be a substitute for the 1911.
Subsequently it was the official personal weapon issued to Air Force
troops so the A.F. guys in Korea had carbines and the rest of the
troops had grown-up guns :-)

--
John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)