I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate -
the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do
not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill you if
you breathe the fumes.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote the following:

I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate -
the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do
not stick.

Could it be the difference in the coefficient of expansion between the
brass and steel?

Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's
the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on
evenly and finely.

Or, if it doesn't have to be electrically connected, you might try a
thin double-sided adhesive tape. That might give them enough
separation if the COE is high up there in the GWN.

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

On Jul 8, 2:03*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

What am I missing? *BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do
not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is
the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is
especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It
is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section.
About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy.

Dan

Buerste wrote:
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I
have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep
better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some
reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school
glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill
you if you breathe the fumes.

It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff (Formica 140
....) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a lingering headache afterwards
.. The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you won't want to breath the fumes , and
the latex/water based variety has basically no odor .
Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like contact and the brass applied
while it's still tacky .
--
Snag
Got Guns ?

On Jul 8, 5:37*am, " wrote:
On Jul 8, 2:03*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

What am I missing? *BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do
not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Brass does not play well with epoxies. *If I recall correctly it is
the copper that causes the problem. *You can buy epoxy that is
especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. *It
is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section.
About two or *three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

And that STILL doesn't work, in my experience. I was trying to avoid
a big solder job when installing a replacement shower valve, involved
about a dozen joints. Ended up with a shower in the wall instead,
most leaked. So ended up with a solder job anyway. And a nasty job
trying to get the stuff apart again after gluing.

Any reason the O.P. can't sweat-solder the brass to the steel? You
can get solder-in-flux paste that works well for that. If the stress
at the joint is in shear or peel, that may be the only way. Would
have been my first choice.

Stan

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

You have several issues here. First, as others have mentioned, copper and
its alloys develop a thin, weak, invisible oxide layer in seconds. Second,
JB Weld is filled and is not formulated as an adhesive, but rather as a kind
of hybrid filler/so-so adhesive. Cyanoacrylate and epoxy, unless they're
formulated for high peel resistance, have terrible resistance to peel and
cleavage, which is what you're going to run into with material that's 0.006"
thick.

Everything is working against you. g

Tawwwwm suggested a laminate adhesive. That will cure a lot of ills, because
it doesn't get real hard and it does very well with peel loads. Its ultimate
strength isn't particularly high but it may well produce the strongest bond
in this case because most other adhesives that are stronger are also less
peel-resistant.

But here's a suggestion to help get a stronger bond, no matter what you use
(except with cyanoacrylate -- I don't think you can work fast enough to beat
its cure time). Use the "scratch-in" method, which works with the other
miserable metals that develop instant oxides -- stainless, aluminum,
magnesium, and, in my limited trials, copper.

The idea is to wet-sand the piece with a piece of fine sandpaper, wet-dry,
or Scotchbrite, with the part and the sanding medium soaked in adhesive. You
don't have to cut deep; just clean the surface well. The key is to never let
the part be exposed to air once you start. Keep it covered with adhesive. If
it produces too much sanding sludge, wet a rag with adhesive and wipe the
part, making sure you keep it wet and NEVER let air touch it. If you wipe it
dry, re-sand and do it all over again.

I haven't used the vicious laminate adhesive for years, but my recollection
is that it dries very, very fast. You'll have to work quick. And work
outdoors. You'll be slopping it around and the solvent is horrid.

Do the same with the other piece you're adhering to, if you can (not if it's
wood). Then put them together wet -- or, in the case of laminate adhesive,
when they've reached the proper tacky stage.

You'll get a good mechanical bond, and it's one of the few ways to also get
a chemical bond with these metals. In volume production they use a PAA
anodize on aluminum, but the scratch-in method works about as well, in my
experience, and I've had success with it on other metals. I ran some crude,
informal tests with it back around 1980 when I was writing about adhesive
assembly for _American Machinist_.

I got this tip from the guys who founded the WEST System. They're epoxy
experts. They were NOT dealing with peel loads; how well you do with that
will depend mostly on your adhesive. No over-the-counter,
room-temperature-cure epoxy is very good in peel. Most cyanoacrylate is
dismal in that department, but there are some sort of gummy ones that may do
it.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress

Larry Jaques wrote:

Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's
the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on
evenly and finely.

I didn't think that a very tenacious adhesive. I use #77 to adhere abrasive paper to
glass when I want to do some scary sharpening. If I don't leave the paper on for too long
I can pull it up rather easily. If I go say, 6 months, well, it really stick but by then
humidity changes has caused the abrasive paper to hump up in places making the paper
useless.

Wes

"Snag" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I
have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep
better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some
reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school
glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill
you if you breathe the fumes.

It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff (Formica 140
...) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a lingering headache
afterwards . The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you won't want to breath the
fumes , and the latex/water based variety has basically no odor .
Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like contact and the brass applied
while it's still tacky .
--
Snag
Got Guns ?


If it doesn't kill 'ya...you ain't dooin it right!

On 7/8/2010 3:33 PM, Michael Koblic wrote:
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have
done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.



3M make a thin double sided tape , that just about is indestructable ,I
cant recall what its called ,but they use it for hanging the BP logo
signs on the gas stations here.
(Should I have mentioned BP here to you Americans)I apologise for that ,
but it's the only thing that I could think of at this time.
The other option is one of the adhesives they use in the car repair
industry , one that comes to mind is the one they use for gluing the
door skins onto the frames .Sikaflex is one brand name that springs to mind.

--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."

Buerste wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I
have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep
better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for
some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for
24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill
you if you breathe the fumes.

It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff
(Formica 140 ...) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a
lingering headache afterwards . The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you
won't want to breath the fumes , and the latex/water based variety
has basically no odor . Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like
contact and the brass applied while it's still tacky .
--
Snag
Got Guns ?


If it doesn't kill 'ya...you ain't dooin it right!

Then I been doin' it wrong for over 35 years ! Laminated somewhere in the
tens of thousands of square feet of P-Lam with hundreds of gallons of the
stuff over the years , an' I ain't dead yet .
Lost some small bits and pieces of fingers (to router bits ...) over the
years , does that count ?
--
Snag
Got Guns ?

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:31:18 -0400, Wes
wrote the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's
the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on
evenly and finely.

I didn't think that a very tenacious adhesive. I use #77 to adhere abrasive paper to

It's exceedingly more tenacious for porous materials, Wes. But if you
don't ike that, try 3M #90 Hi-strength.


glass when I want to do some scary sharpening. If I don't leave the paper on for too long
I can pull it up rather easily. If I go say, 6 months, well, it really stick but by then
humidity changes has caused the abrasive paper to hump up in places making the paper
useless.

For ScarySharping, spray it on MDF and stick the paper to that. I use
whatever flat surface is handy at the moment, including laminate
countertops. The 50% of the times I do it dry, it doesn't matter.
shrug

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

"Snag" wrote in message
...


Then I been doin' it wrong for over 35 years ! Laminated somewhere in the
tens of thousands of square feet of P-Lam with hundreds of gallons of the
stuff over the years , an' I ain't dead yet .
Lost some small bits and pieces of fingers (to router bits ...) over the
years , does that count ?
--
Snag
Got Guns ?


We used the stuff in spray guns, I still remember not being able to
remember.

Michael Koblic wrote:
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have
done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some
kind of plastic stuff to prevent it from
tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick
or the etchant to etch the stuff
until I sanded it first.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Michael Koblic wrote:
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have
done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.

Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some kind
of plastic stuff to prevent it from
tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick
or the etchant to etch the stuff
until I sanded it first.


That is what I meant by "abrade".
Press-n-Peel sticks to mine OK.
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Michael Koblic wrote:
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have
done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.

Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some kind
of plastic stuff to prevent it from
tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick
or the etchant to etch the stuff
until I sanded it first.


That is what I meant by "abrade".
Press-n-Peel sticks to mine OK.
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

- Sorry if this appears in duplicate, the first message did not show.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate -
the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do
not stick.

I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with
nickel or tin.

wrote in message
...
On Jul 8, 2:03 am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do
not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is
the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is
especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It
is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section.
About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy.

Looks like this may have to be explored.
BTW my reply to your PM was bounced. Your points were noted, thanks.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate -
the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do
not stick.

I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with
nickel or tin.

OK, is that a heat application?

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:49:20 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are
dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate -
the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours
at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do
not stick.

I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with
nickel or tin.

OK, is that a heat application?

No.
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do
not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is
the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is
especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It
is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section.
About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy.

Looks like this may have to be explored.
BTW my reply to your PM was bounced. Your points were noted, thanks.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC


maybe it's time for 1700s technology - have you tried soft solder? Tin the
brass sheet and solder in an oven - it's not hard to get to 640 deg - a
sheet of stainless on top and a clamp will make sure it's flat, proper
surface preparation and tinning will ensure a complete bond

--Happened by TAP Plastics yesterday and they sell 2-sided sticky
tape, industrial grade, in 2 different thicknesses. Maybe one of them would
be worth a try?

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : A human without a critter
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : is incomplete..
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---