I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

eric.

In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom, Eric
wrote:

I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.

Yep. You should be wary of gluing end grain to end grain. It's an
extremely weak joint.

Can you use a scarf or lap joint instead? Or one of those fancy-shmancy
interlocking joints? Spline? Dowels?

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

Eric wrote:
I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain
to end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be
wary of.

Yes. You should be wary of doing it. Don't. Make a joint with long
grain...scarf is easy.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom,
Eric wrote:
I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

(A) simply butting end-grain to end-grain is *not* a good idea. at a
minimum, consider using a lap joint, like this:

---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------


(B) Any good wood glue will be fine. I don't see any 'need' for the
price premium for Gorilla Glue.

(C) there are lots of ways to clamp up things like this that do _not_
require ridiculously long bar clamps. However, if you do insist
on applying end-to-end pressure, the solution is 'pipe clamps',
e.g. "Pony". use a long enough piece of pipe, and they will
clamp "anything". Recommended is multiple lengths of 4' pipe,
threaded on _both_ ends. Then you simply use inside-threaded
'sleeves' to join multiple sections to the length required.
(the advantage to this is you can disassemble it after use,
eliminating the need to store that say, 14' piece of pipe.

To clamp such a glue-up without requiring long clamps, first clamp
a couple of pieces of scrap stock (one on each side of the piece)
a moderate distance back from the joint edge. thusly:

__ __
/ | | \
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
---------------------+-----------
| | |
| +---------+ |
| | |
-----------+---------------------
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
\_| |_/
| |
| |
| |

then, put clamps across those 'scrap' blocks, thusly:


+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------

It is important to get equal tensioning on both sides of the board.
otherwise you will introduce warping.

Note: you can cross-clamp _on_ the joint as well, to help hold it flat,
or by using a reverse taper on the edges, you can make the joint
'self locking', as follows:

+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
-------------------+-------------
\
+---------+
\
-------------+-------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------

Eric wrote:
I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So.. I
need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.


Finger, dowel, half lap, spline, anything except a straight end grain
butt joint. As for the clamping, clamp the board on either side of the
joint with a small clamp, then run a pipe clamp from the clamp on one
side of the joint to the clamp on the other side of the joint.

My ascii art ain't too good, maybe you can make sense from it.

|-------------------|-- (pipe clamp)
------|-------+---------|------
| (joint) |
^ ^
(clamp) (clamp)


--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom,
Eric wrote:

I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.


(A) simply butting end-grain to end-grain is *not* a good idea. at a
minimum, consider using a lap joint, like this:

---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------


(B) Any good wood glue will be fine. I don't see any 'need' for the
price premium for Gorilla Glue.

(C) there are lots of ways to clamp up things like this that do _not_
require ridiculously long bar clamps. However, if you do insist
on applying end-to-end pressure, the solution is 'pipe clamps',
e.g. "Pony". use a long enough piece of pipe, and they will
clamp "anything". Recommended is multiple lengths of 4' pipe,
threaded on _both_ ends. Then you simply use inside-threaded
'sleeves' to join multiple sections to the length required.
(the advantage to this is you can disassemble it after use,
eliminating the need to store that say, 14' piece of pipe.

To clamp such a glue-up without requiring long clamps, first clamp
a couple of pieces of scrap stock (one on each side of the piece)
a moderate distance back from the joint edge. thusly:

__ __
/ | | \
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
---------------------+-----------
| | |
| +---------+ |
| | |
-----------+---------------------
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
\_| |_/
| |
| |
| |

then, put clamps across those 'scrap' blocks, thusly:


+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------

It is important to get equal tensioning on both sides of the board.
otherwise you will introduce warping.

Note: you can cross-clamp _on_ the joint as well, to help hold it flat,
or by using a reverse taper on the edges, you can make the joint
'self locking', as follows:

+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
-------------------+-------------
\
+---------+
\
-------------+-------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------



Your ASCII art is much better than mine

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom, Eric
wrote:

I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary
of.

Yep. You should be wary of gluing end grain to end grain. It's an
extremely weak joint.

Can you use a scarf or lap joint instead? Or one of those
fancy-shmancy
interlocking joints? Spline? Dowels?

Biscuits?

--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston

In article , Odinn wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:
[[.. munch ..]]

-------------------+-------------
\
+---------+
\
-------------+-------------------

Your ASCII art is much better than mine

Well, _no_wonder_ you're having problems --
for a question, you ASCII it.
when responding, you ANSI it.

As in "ASCII simple question, get a simple ANSI." *GRIN*



Secrets:
1) use a fixed-pitch font when composing
(on MS-Windows "fixedsys" is a good choice.)
2) make sure that there are no {TAB] characters in what you send.
3) go _big_ -- you need one row/column to show an 'edge',
plus a minimum of one row/column for any 'interior' space


see http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/textfiles-artscene/asciiart/meriday
for what a really talented ASCII artist can do.
The rest of http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/textfiles-artscene/asciiart/
is worth checking out, as well.



P.S. It'd help if you put your ROT13'd address in your sig. most newsreaders
that underestand ROT13 dont apply it to the headers. And it's too d*mn much
trouble to do manually.

In article ,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

As in "ASCII simple question, get a simple ANSI." *GRIN*

Would somebody please defenistrate that man?

In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

As in "ASCII simple question, get a simple ANSI." *GRIN*

Would somebody please defenistrate that man?

Everybody knows my sense of humor is indefenistrable. Just one of the
reasons I do USENET from a UNIX box, not some MS-inspired boondoggle.

However, _that_ remark is by no means original to me.


Then there was the wife of one of my systems-programmer cohorts, who picked
up what she _thought_ was some of his vocabulary, and reported -- some years
ago now -- that at her place of work, they were getting PCs, to replace all
those "dumb-ass key terminals" that they'd been using. He had a *LOT* of
explaining to do, when he collapsed from uncontrollable giggles/laughter.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article , Odinn wrote:

Robert Bonomi wrote:

[[.. munch ..]]

-------------------+-------------
\
+---------+
\
-------------+-------------------

Your ASCII art is much better than mine


Well, _no_wonder_ you're having problems --
for a question, you ASCII it.
when responding, you ANSI it.

As in "ASCII simple question, get a simple ANSI." *GRIN*


GROAN Sorry, been hearing that for 20+ years (I've been working in
the computer industry for 23 years now).



Secrets:
1) use a fixed-pitch font when composing
(on MS-Windows "fixedsys" is a good choice.)
2) make sure that there are no {TAB] characters in what you send.
3) go _big_ -- you need one row/column to show an 'edge',
plus a minimum of one row/column for any 'interior' space


see http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/textfiles-artscene/asciiart/meriday
for what a really talented ASCII artist can do.
The rest of http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/textfiles-artscene/asciiart/
is worth checking out, as well.


I'm well aware of how to do ASCII art, I'm just a terrible artist


P.S. It'd help if you put your ROT13'd address in your sig. most newsreaders
that underestand ROT13 dont apply it to the headers. And it's too d*mn much
trouble to do manually.

Good idea.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:


As in "ASCII simple question, get a simple ANSI." *GRIN*

Would somebody please defenistrate that man?


Everybody knows my sense of humor is indefenistrable. Just one of the
reasons I do USENET from a UNIX box, not some MS-inspired boondoggle.

I only use MS because of the garbage I'm required to do at work. I'm
the lead admin where I work, 12 remote offices, 500+ UNIX and Windows
servers. Some of the apps we've purchased just won't run on UNIX,
including some of the web app stuff. At home, I have FreeBSD, Solaris,
and AIX server/workstations, wife and daughter have windows laptops.

However, _that_ remark is by no means original to me.


Then there was the wife of one of my systems-programmer cohorts, who picked
up what she _thought_ was some of his vocabulary, and reported -- some years
ago now -- that at her place of work, they were getting PCs, to replace all
those "dumb-ass key terminals" that they'd been using. He had a *LOT* of
explaining to do, when he collapsed from uncontrollable giggles/laughter.

Hehehe, good one, I'll have to remember that one.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

"D. J. MCBRIDE" wrote in news:T4Rhe.95196$h6.46625
@tornado.texas.rr.com:


"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom, Eric
wrote:

I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary
of.

Yep. You should be wary of gluing end grain to end grain. It's an
extremely weak joint.

Can you use a scarf or lap joint instead? Or one of those
fancy-shmancy
interlocking joints? Spline? Dowels?

Biscuits?


End-on-end dovetails, like they always demo at the woodshows, but which
seldom appear in the wild.

An excuse for a new, expensive tool or two.

In my shop: Lap joint.

Patriarch

On 2005-05-15 13:18:19 -0700, Eric said:

I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

eric.

Thank-you to all who responded. Biscuits I can do, laps also , so I'll
do one of those rather than end-to-end. Thanks also for the clamping
ideas.

"Patriarch" wrote in message

End-on-end dovetails, like they always demo at the woodshows, but which
seldom appear in the wild.

Patriarch

I have this visual of it. Dovetail fixtures are always shown bench mounted
and the piece getting the tails is vertical. I can see this 13' tower with
a fixture on top and a guy standing on a ladder with the router. No, you
can't change it because Norm always has the board vertical so that is the
only way.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom,
Eric wrote:

I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.


(A) simply butting end-grain to end-grain is *not* a good idea. at a
minimum, consider using a lap joint, like this:

---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------


(B) Any good wood glue will be fine. I don't see any 'need' for the
price premium for Gorilla Glue.

There _might_ be a need for a "stretchy" glue -- say the type you use
for lamination if there is a lot of expansion and contraction cycles in
that window. (Hot sunny days, cool nights etc.) And Gorilla Glue is that
stretchy type for laminations. Other than that... And of course some
glues are more heat resistant than others.

I know Lee Valley has some good explanations of glues on their sites.

Also See Fine Woodworking April,2005 #176 page 42.

A minor issue in an otherwise great explanation. IMO


(C) there are lots of ways to clamp up things like this that do _not_
require ridiculously long bar clamps. However, if you do insist
on applying end-to-end pressure, the solution is 'pipe clamps',
e.g. "Pony". use a long enough piece of pipe, and they will
clamp "anything". Recommended is multiple lengths of 4' pipe,
threaded on _both_ ends. Then you simply use inside-threaded
'sleeves' to join multiple sections to the length required.
(the advantage to this is you can disassemble it after use,
eliminating the need to store that say, 14' piece of pipe.

To clamp such a glue-up without requiring long clamps, first clamp
a couple of pieces of scrap stock (one on each side of the piece)
a moderate distance back from the joint edge. thusly:

__ __
/ | | \
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
---------------------+-----------
| | |
| +---------+ |
| | |
-----------+---------------------
+-+ | | +-+
+-+ | | +-+
\_| |_/
| |
| |
| |

then, put clamps across those 'scrap' blocks, thusly:


+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------

It is important to get equal tensioning on both sides of the board.
otherwise you will introduce warping.

Note: you can cross-clamp _on_ the joint as well, to help hold it flat,
or by using a reverse taper on the edges, you can make the joint
'self locking', as follows:

+-------------------------------+-------
\+-+ +-+/
+-+ +-+
-------------------+-------------
\
+---------+
\
-------------+-------------------
+-+ +-+
/+-+ +-+\
+-------------------------------+-------



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article 2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom,
Eric wrote:
I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

eric.


Perhaps with your framing strength will not be an issue, but If I were
doing it, I would either use a scarf or half-lap joint, either one
would be plenty strong and eliminate concern of weak eng grain glue
up.

--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
:


"Patriarch" wrote in message

End-on-end dovetails, like they always demo at the woodshows, but
which seldom appear in the wild.


I have this visual of it. Dovetail fixtures are always shown bench
mounted and the piece getting the tails is vertical. I can see this
13' tower with a fixture on top and a guy standing on a ladder with
the router. No, you can't change it because Norm always has the board
vertical so that is the only way.


You couldn't put the tails on the short pieces? ;-)

OTOH, I have a very tall ladder.

Patriarch

In article ,
WillR wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:
[[.. munch ..]]

(A) simply butting end-grain to end-grain is *not* a good idea. at a
minimum, consider using a lap joint, like this:

---------------------+-----------
|
+---------+
|
-----------+---------------------


(B) Any good wood glue will be fine. I don't see any 'need' for the
price premium for Gorilla Glue.

There _might_ be a need for a "stretchy" glue -- say the type you use
for lamination if there is a lot of expansion and contraction cycles in
that window. (Hot sunny days, cool nights etc.) And Gorilla Glue is that
stretchy type for laminations. Other than that... And of course some
glues are more heat resistant than others.


With both pieces made of the same species, and the grain running the
_same_ direction, both pieces will move identically. Whereupon glue
'stretchiness' becomes a non-issue.

"Eric" wrote in message
news:2005051513181916807%ericblair@pillarboxcom...
I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am using
Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So.. I need to
glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two pieces to
either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to end grain
before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of. I could use
Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I have
the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used with
longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

eric.
You should cut a taper/scarf joint and glue the 2 pieces together using the
edge grain.
Secondly, are you sure you want to use a wood that is that soft for that
location?

Odinn wrote in message on Sunday 15 May 2005 10:29
pm:



I only use MS because of the garbage I'm required to do at work. I'm
the lead admin where I work, 12 remote offices, 500+ UNIX and Windows
servers. Some of the apps we've purchased just won't run on UNIX,
including some of the web app stuff. At home, I have FreeBSD, Solaris,
and AIX server/workstations, wife and daughter have windows laptops.

Odinn,
Once the Unix total tops 25 servers you can be forgiven for running a
Windows server for Photoshop.

Bill --- runs Linux / Win and LTSP on his home network of 5 boxes + a print
server.

Bill C. wrote:
Odinn wrote in message on Sunday 15 May 2005 10:29
pm:



I only use MS because of the garbage I'm required to do at work. I'm
the lead admin where I work, 12 remote offices, 500+ UNIX and Windows
servers. Some of the apps we've purchased just won't run on UNIX,
including some of the web app stuff. At home, I have FreeBSD, Solaris,
and AIX server/workstations, wife and daughter have windows laptops.


Odinn,
Once the Unix total tops 25 servers you can be forgiven for running a
Windows server for Photoshop.

Bill --- runs Linux / Win and LTSP on his home network of 5 boxes + a print
server.

I wish I only had 5 machines at home. At last count, I had 27.
Fortunately, not all of them run simultaneously, as I couldn't afford
the electric bill. Normally, I have between 8 and 12 running at a time.
Don't ask me why, because the only answer I have is OCD.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Use a half-lap joint, perhaps 6" long. This is easy to make, clamp,
and much stronger than a butt joint. Regular yellow woodworker's glue
will work fine.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 13:18:19 -0700, Eric
wrote:

I have to make an interior window ledge that is 13.5 feet long. I am
using Peruvian Walnut, and the longest boards I can find are 9ft. So..
I need to glue the pieces together. I intend to do this by adding two
pieces to either end of the main piece. I have never glued end grain to
end grain before and wondered if there is anything I should be wary of.
I could use Titebond or Gorilla glue, is there any advantage to one
over the other?

Other than my biggest issue might be finding bar clamp long enough. I
have the Rockler clamps and I am not sure they can be extended or used
with longer bars.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

eric.