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Gluing brass
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done
it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Gluing brass
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill you if you breathe the fumes. |
Gluing brass
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote the following: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. Could it be the difference in the coefficient of expansion between the brass and steel? Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on evenly and finely. Or, if it doesn't have to be electrically connected, you might try a thin double-sided adhesive tape. That might give them enough separation if the COE is high up there in the GWN. -- It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive. -- Pema Chodron |
Gluing brass
On Jul 8, 2:03*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
What am I missing? *BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section. About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy. Dan |
Gluing brass
Buerste wrote:
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill you if you breathe the fumes. It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff (Formica 140 ....) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a lingering headache afterwards .. The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you won't want to breath the fumes , and the latex/water based variety has basically no odor . Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like contact and the brass applied while it's still tacky . -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Gluing brass
On Jul 8, 5:37*am, " wrote:
On Jul 8, 2:03*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote: What am I missing? *BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Brass does not play well with epoxies. *If I recall correctly it is the copper that causes the problem. *You can buy epoxy that is especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. *It is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section. About two or *three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan And that STILL doesn't work, in my experience. I was trying to avoid a big solder job when installing a replacement shower valve, involved about a dozen joints. Ended up with a shower in the wall instead, most leaked. So ended up with a solder job anyway. And a nasty job trying to get the stuff apart again after gluing. Any reason the O.P. can't sweat-solder the brass to the steel? You can get solder-in-flux paste that works well for that. If the stress at the joint is in shear or peel, that may be the only way. Would have been my first choice. Stan |
Gluing brass
"Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC You have several issues here. First, as others have mentioned, copper and its alloys develop a thin, weak, invisible oxide layer in seconds. Second, JB Weld is filled and is not formulated as an adhesive, but rather as a kind of hybrid filler/so-so adhesive. Cyanoacrylate and epoxy, unless they're formulated for high peel resistance, have terrible resistance to peel and cleavage, which is what you're going to run into with material that's 0.006" thick. Everything is working against you. g Tawwwwm suggested a laminate adhesive. That will cure a lot of ills, because it doesn't get real hard and it does very well with peel loads. Its ultimate strength isn't particularly high but it may well produce the strongest bond in this case because most other adhesives that are stronger are also less peel-resistant. But here's a suggestion to help get a stronger bond, no matter what you use (except with cyanoacrylate -- I don't think you can work fast enough to beat its cure time). Use the "scratch-in" method, which works with the other miserable metals that develop instant oxides -- stainless, aluminum, magnesium, and, in my limited trials, copper. The idea is to wet-sand the piece with a piece of fine sandpaper, wet-dry, or Scotchbrite, with the part and the sanding medium soaked in adhesive. You don't have to cut deep; just clean the surface well. The key is to never let the part be exposed to air once you start. Keep it covered with adhesive. If it produces too much sanding sludge, wet a rag with adhesive and wipe the part, making sure you keep it wet and NEVER let air touch it. If you wipe it dry, re-sand and do it all over again. I haven't used the vicious laminate adhesive for years, but my recollection is that it dries very, very fast. You'll have to work quick. And work outdoors. You'll be slopping it around and the solvent is horrid. Do the same with the other piece you're adhering to, if you can (not if it's wood). Then put them together wet -- or, in the case of laminate adhesive, when they've reached the proper tacky stage. You'll get a good mechanical bond, and it's one of the few ways to also get a chemical bond with these metals. In volume production they use a PAA anodize on aluminum, but the scratch-in method works about as well, in my experience, and I've had success with it on other metals. I ran some crude, informal tests with it back around 1980 when I was writing about adhesive assembly for _American Machinist_. I got this tip from the guys who founded the WEST System. They're epoxy experts. They were NOT dealing with peel loads; how well you do with that will depend mostly on your adhesive. No over-the-counter, room-temperature-cure epoxy is very good in peel. Most cyanoacrylate is dismal in that department, but there are some sort of gummy ones that may do it. Good luck! -- Ed Huntress |
Gluing brass
Larry Jaques wrote:
Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on evenly and finely. I didn't think that a very tenacious adhesive. I use #77 to adhere abrasive paper to glass when I want to do some scary sharpening. If I don't leave the paper on for too long I can pull it up rather easily. If I go say, 6 months, well, it really stick but by then humidity changes has caused the abrasive paper to hump up in places making the paper useless. Wes |
Gluing brass
"Snag" wrote in message ... Buerste wrote: "Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill you if you breathe the fumes. It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff (Formica 140 ...) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a lingering headache afterwards . The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you won't want to breath the fumes , and the latex/water based variety has basically no odor . Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like contact and the brass applied while it's still tacky . -- Snag Got Guns ? If it doesn't kill 'ya...you ain't dooin it right! |
Gluing brass
Buerste wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message ... Buerste wrote: "Michael Koblic" wrote in message ... I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Contact cement, the kind used for Formica. The kind that will kill you if you breathe the fumes. It won't kill you . Right away ... actually , the good stuff (Formica 140 ...) will give you a pretty good buzz , with a lingering headache afterwards . The non-flam stuff stinks so bad you won't want to breath the fumes , and the latex/water based variety has basically no odor . Try 3M weatherstrip adhesive , spread like contact and the brass applied while it's still tacky . -- Snag Got Guns ? If it doesn't kill 'ya...you ain't dooin it right! Then I been doin' it wrong for over 35 years ! Laminated somewhere in the tens of thousands of square feet of P-Lam with hundreds of gallons of the stuff over the years , an' I ain't dead yet . Lost some small bits and pieces of fingers (to router bits ...) over the years , does that count ? -- Snag Got Guns ? |
Gluing brass
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:31:18 -0400, Wes
wrote the following: Larry Jaques wrote: Give it one more try, this time using 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's the only one I can use (on my laptop glare guards) which will go on evenly and finely. I didn't think that a very tenacious adhesive. I use #77 to adhere abrasive paper to It's exceedingly more tenacious for porous materials, Wes. But if you don't ike that, try 3M #90 Hi-strength. glass when I want to do some scary sharpening. If I don't leave the paper on for too long I can pull it up rather easily. If I go say, 6 months, well, it really stick but by then humidity changes has caused the abrasive paper to hump up in places making the paper useless. For ScarySharping, spray it on MDF and stick the paper to that. I use whatever flat surface is handy at the moment, including laminate countertops. The 50% of the times I do it dry, it doesn't matter. shrug -- EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight, which somehow eases those pains and indignities following our every deficiency in foresight. |
Gluing brass
"Snag" wrote in message ... Then I been doin' it wrong for over 35 years ! Laminated somewhere in the tens of thousands of square feet of P-Lam with hundreds of gallons of the stuff over the years , an' I ain't dead yet . Lost some small bits and pieces of fingers (to router bits ...) over the years , does that count ? -- Snag Got Guns ? We used the stuff in spray guns, I still remember not being able to remember. |
Gluing brass
Michael Koblic wrote:
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some kind of plastic stuff to prevent it from tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick or the etchant to etch the stuff until I sanded it first. Jon |
Gluing brass
"Jon Elson" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some kind of plastic stuff to prevent it from tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick or the etchant to etch the stuff until I sanded it first. That is what I meant by "abrade". Press-n-Peel sticks to mine OK. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Gluing brass
"Jon Elson" wrote in message ... Michael Koblic wrote: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. Sand the brass. I'll bet this is shim stock? They coat it with some kind of plastic stuff to prevent it from tarnishing. I photoetch shim stock and couldn't get the resist to stick or the etchant to etch the stuff until I sanded it first. That is what I meant by "abrade". Press-n-Peel sticks to mine OK. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC - Sorry if this appears in duplicate, the first message did not show. |
Gluing brass
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with nickel or tin. |
Gluing brass
wrote in message ... On Jul 8, 2:03 am, "Michael Koblic" wrote: What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section. About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy. Looks like this may have to be explored. BTW my reply to your PM was bounced. Your points were noted, thanks. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Gluing brass
"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic" wrote: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with nickel or tin. OK, is that a heat application? -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC |
Gluing brass
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:49:20 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote: "Don Foreman" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 23:03:04 -0700, "Michael Koblic" wrote: I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better records!). I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue! I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada! What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. I wonder if you'd have better luck if you brush-plated the brass with nickel or tin. OK, is that a heat application? No. http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm |
Gluing brass
What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues do not stick. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC Brass does not play well with epoxies. If I recall correctly it is the copper that causes the problem. You can buy epoxy that is especially formulated to work with copper at your big box store. It is sold to glue copper pipe so look for it in the plumbing section. About two or three times as expensive as ordinary epoxy. Looks like this may have to be explored. BTW my reply to your PM was bounced. Your points were noted, thanks. -- Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC maybe it's time for 1700s technology - have you tried soft solder? Tin the brass sheet and solder in an oven - it's not hard to get to 640 deg - a sheet of stainless on top and a clamp will make sure it's flat, proper surface preparation and tinning will ensure a complete bond |
Gluing brass
--Happened by TAP Plastics yesterday and they sell 2-sided sticky
tape, industrial grade, in 2 different thicknesses. Maybe one of them would be worth a try? -- "Steamboat Ed" Haas : A human without a critter Hacking the Trailing Edge! : is incomplete.. www.nmpproducts.com ---Decks a-wash in a sea of words--- |
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