"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i

It's nasty and a lot of work, but a floor safe is worth it. A definite
thing to do for anyone building a house. Think about it. If you were a bad
guy, could you get a safe off a wall, or rip it out from some attachment? I
think we all could with time and tools. Even a floor safe, but only a pro
that knows there's a lot in there would attempt it, and then, they probably
would use a stethoscope than a jackhammer.

Still, a hassle to get into in a hurry to get a handgun out. I have my
handguns very accessible, just placed in places that thieves probably
wouldn't look on a quick search, and are high enough that the kids can not
get to them. I have four around the house, and two shotguns. Not paranoid,
but when you need one, you don't want to tell the guy, "Wait here a minute
until I get back. I have to go to the other side of the house." As for the
jewelry, a floor safe is good. The next best thing is to build a secret
compartment in a cabinet that looks like part of the unit. Or even in the
back of her underwear or socks drawer. My wife stashes jewelry, then
sometimes it is months before she remembers where she stashed it.

I am plagued with rock squirrels. Little *******s strip the fruit trees and
chew up stuff for fun, then crap all over the place. One came in the yard
yesterday, and my two grandsons were here. I ran to the safe and got out
the shotgun, as I had put it in there knowing they would be here yesterday.
Came back, opened the door, popped the squirrel with a 12 ga. low base
shell, and everyone was like ho hum. No big deal. Musta been two of them,
because they were laughing as one took off to the left. Me and one grandson
went and checked, and I did get the one I was aiming for, dead as a hammer.
Otherwise, I would have just had to go ten feet to pick up the shotgun.

Dad and Mom are POs, and although they don't leave guns laying around, those
boys have been seeing guns all their lives and every day. They know not to
touch, and I'm waiting until they are old enough to shoot. I was 8. My son
shot a 12 ga at 8.

Steve

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:24:52 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Buerste wrote:

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach
that safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the
aid of some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i

Think differently, rather than "robust" go for stealth.


A stealth safe. Just don't forget where you put it. ;-)

Seriously, it takes a lot of work to make it difficult to secure a
safe, without building a building over it. Look at the ATMs being
knocked out of buildings by ramming them with a car, or some earlier
models that they could hook a cable from a wrecker to, and rip it out of
the building.

A floor safe, set in a lot of concrete and under a heavy piece of
furniture is the most secure, and the hardest to use. The harder a safe
is to use, the less likely it is to be used. It happens all the time.
'It takes too long to open the safe', 'Its in a hard to reach place'.
that leads to things being left out, 'till the next time I need to open
the safe'.

What good is a gun, in a safe?

If it's a cool vintage gun that you shoot once a year -- lots.

If it's your protection against home invasion* -- not much.

* I've never suffered a home invasion. No one in my family has suffered
a home invasion. The only person I know who suffered a home invasion ran
with a seriously weird crowd. I would contend that if you are worried
about home invasions then you are (a) too paranoid, (b) hanging with the
wrong people, or (c) living in the wrong part of the world. (a) can be
taken care of with medication, (b) can be taken care of by changing your
friends, and (c) can be taken care of by changing the part of the world
that you live in, or living in a different part of the world.

But what do I know.

Do you read a newspaper? Do you have a television?

Look at them, and you'll know that home invasions happen all the time.

Steve

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:35:48 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:




I would not say that ahome invasion of impossible, but I have to
balance the dangers and inconveniences of having guns easily
available, in a house with children, and a need for guns in the
unlikely event of a home invasion.


You teach children about guns, just like looking both before crossing the
street, that stoves are hot, about how to use tools.

Children should indeed be taught. But children do make mistakes and
they do not have the judgement that an adult has. The consequences of
a curious child's mistake with a handgun are too serious to risk.
Lock 'em up.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus10294
wrote:

I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

You need two - or three (His and Hers) - seperate safes.

I say you need at least 7 safes, but 13 would be better. If you want to
not screw around, go for at least 5 safes per room, and convert one room
into a vault.

Be sure to put a safe inside the vault, in case the cleaning people sneak
in while you open the door.

On 2009-07-10, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus10294
wrote:

I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

You need two - or three (His and Hers) - seperate safes.

I say you need at least 7 safes, but 13 would be better. If you want to
not screw around, go for at least 5 safes per room, and convert one room
into a vault.

Be sure to put a safe inside the vault, in case the cleaning people sneak
in while you open the door.

That's what banks do, put safes inside vaults.

i

Ignoramus21207 wrote:
On 2009-07-10, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus10294
wrote:

I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

You need two - or three (His and Hers) - seperate safes.

I say you need at least 7 safes, but 13 would be better. If you want to
not screw around, go for at least 5 safes per room, and convert one room
into a vault.

Be sure to put a safe inside the vault, in case the cleaning people sneak
in while you open the door.

That's what banks do, put safes inside vaults.

If it's good enough for an old style bank (who actually have valuables) it
should work just as good at home.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:22:34 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:35:48 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:




I would not say that ahome invasion of impossible, but I have to
balance the dangers and inconveniences of having guns easily
available, in a house with children, and a need for guns in the
unlikely event of a home invasion.


You teach children about guns, just like looking both before crossing the
street, that stoves are hot, about how to use tools.

Children should indeed be taught. But children do make mistakes and
they do not have the judgement that an adult has. The consequences of
a curious child's mistake with a handgun are too serious to risk.
Lock 'em up.

We built this USA of today, we were taught the rules like
Bruce listed, guns weren't locked up, lawnmowers had a
pull-rope and throttle, cars didn't have any stink'in
airbags (excluding mother-inlaws), anti-skid brakes,
traction control, tire pressure monitor...

Accidents happened and you either learned or died. Looking
at where things are headed today all this hand holding and
looking out for the truly stupid people is busting this once
great country...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:24:52 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Buerste wrote:

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach
that safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the
aid of some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i

Think differently, rather than "robust" go for stealth.


A stealth safe. Just don't forget where you put it. ;-)

Seriously, it takes a lot of work to make it difficult to secure a
safe, without building a building over it. Look at the ATMs being
knocked out of buildings by ramming them with a car, or some earlier
models that they could hook a cable from a wrecker to, and rip it out of
the building.

A floor safe, set in a lot of concrete and under a heavy piece of
furniture is the most secure, and the hardest to use. The harder a safe
is to use, the less likely it is to be used. It happens all the time.
'It takes too long to open the safe', 'Its in a hard to reach place'.
that leads to things being left out, 'till the next time I need to open
the safe'.

What good is a gun, in a safe?

If it's a cool vintage gun that you shoot once a year -- lots.

If it's your protection against home invasion* -- not much.

* I've never suffered a home invasion. No one in my family has suffered
a home invasion. The only person I know who suffered a home invasion ran
with a seriously weird crowd. I would contend that if you are worried
about home invasions then you are (a) too paranoid, (b) hanging with the
wrong people, or (c) living in the wrong part of the world. (a) can be
taken care of with medication, (b) can be taken care of by changing your
friends, and (c) can be taken care of by changing the part of the world
that you live in, or living in a different part of the world.

But what do I know.

Do you read a newspaper? Do you have a television?

Look at them, and you'll know that home invasions happen all the time.

Steve


The San Francisco Bay area has lots. but 99.9% are ethnic groups targeting
the same ethnic group. Or a drug dealer getting invaded by those who want
his drugs and money. Extremely rare for a normal person to be invaded.

Calif Bill wrote:


The San Francisco Bay area has lots. but 99.9% are ethnic groups targeting
the same ethnic group. Or a drug dealer getting invaded by those who want
his drugs and money. Extremely rare for a normal person to be invaded.

Or the ethnic group, drug dealer or the police invade the wrong house.

Who is that normal person in the SF Bay area? I didn't realize there
was one.

None that I know there are normal.

Although, strictly speaking, they are SOMEWHERE on a normal curve.

David

"David R.Birch" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:


The San Francisco Bay area has lots. but 99.9% are ethnic groups
targeting the same ethnic group. Or a drug dealer getting invaded by
those who want his drugs and money. Extremely rare for a normal person
to be invaded.

Or the ethnic group, drug dealer or the police invade the wrong house.

Who is that normal person in the SF Bay area? I didn't realize there was
one.

None that I know there are normal.

Although, strictly speaking, they are SOMEWHERE on a normal curve.

David

Well, normal for here. Or maybe that is Abnormal for here. :)

If the police are raiding the wrong house, you do not want to point a gun at
them. Too many people have died from that act.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:34:40 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:22:34 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:35:48 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:




I would not say that ahome invasion of impossible, but I have to
balance the dangers and inconveniences of having guns easily
available, in a house with children, and a need for guns in the
unlikely event of a home invasion.


You teach children about guns, just like looking both before crossing the
street, that stoves are hot, about how to use tools.

Children should indeed be taught. But children do make mistakes and
they do not have the judgement that an adult has. The consequences of
a curious child's mistake with a handgun are too serious to risk.
Lock 'em up.

We built this USA of today, we were taught the rules like
Bruce listed, guns weren't locked up, lawnmowers had a
pull-rope and throttle, cars didn't have any stink'in
airbags (excluding mother-inlaws), anti-skid brakes,
traction control, tire pressure monitor...

Accidents happened and you either learned or died. Looking
at where things are headed today all this hand holding and
looking out for the truly stupid people is busting this once
great country...

Your point is well taken. I was trusted with sharp tools, hazardous
chemicals and long guns as a kid. I strongly agree that the
business of blaming and sueing others for one's mishaps has gotten
out of hand.

That said, I regard handguns as sort of a special case for two
reasons. First, they've been trivialized by TV and movies, going
clear back to the cowboy movies. Only bad guys get killed in the
movies and on TV.
Children often don't have the judgement to understand the difference.
Second, they are sooo easy to mishandle. Muzzle control is easy with
long guns but even adults who aren't familiar with handguns almost
all have dangerous lapses until they're taught to pay attention. I
introduce adults to handguns every now and then, and I've found this
to be true almost without exception. 15 or 20 minutes of
familiarization suffices to prepare them for a first range
experience but it takes a while longer for safe practice to become
as second-nature as a sneeze for them.

There must be zero tolerance for muzzle ever pointed at any person
who isn't about to be deliberately shot. I have very little
patience for snotty kids and parents that don't parent, but I'd
regard "learn or die" as a bit draconian even for stupid children
-- though perhaps not for stupid or irresponsible parents.

Unsupervised children could easily regard zero-tol muzzle control as
absurdly overconservative since they see guns pointed at people so
much on TV. I'd wager that parents who don't let their kids watch
such TV are quite unlikely to have unsecured handguns in the house.

FWIW, failure to secure handguns from children is a crime in most
States and a felony in many.

So endeth my sermon. I suppose I'm a bit of a tightass twit about
safety but it's how I was taught and how I taught my kids, all of whom
made it to adulthood with a full compliment of eyes, fingers, toes and
no convictions for hellraising that I know of albeit a couple of
artful evasions that I suspect. There was a matter of 2 miles of a
certain interstate hiway aflame one cold New Year's Eve...

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:33:21 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:34:40 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


Accidents happened and you either learned or died. Looking
at where things are headed today all this hand holding and
looking out for the truly stupid people is busting this once
great country...

Your point is well taken. I was trusted with sharp tools, hazardous
chemicals and long guns as a kid. I strongly agree that the
business of blaming and sueing others for one's mishaps has gotten
out of hand.

Ol' Spence had a wonderful saying for that:

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly
is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)


That said, I regard handguns as sort of a special case for two
reasons. First, they've been trivialized by TV and movies, going
clear back to the cowboy movies. Only bad guys get killed in the
movies and on TV.
Children often don't have the judgement to understand the difference.
Second, they are sooo easy to mishandle. Muzzle control is easy with
long guns but even adults who aren't familiar with handguns almost
all have dangerous lapses until they're taught to pay attention. I
introduce adults to handguns every now and then, and I've found this
to be true almost without exception. 15 or 20 minutes of
familiarization suffices to prepare them for a first range
experience but it takes a while longer for safe practice to become
as second-nature as a sneeze for them.

Right. It takes awareness, and that (unfortunately, in too many cases)
is a learned response. Awareness is instant with noisy & dangerous
tools, such as gas chainsaws. They get instant respect.


There must be zero tolerance for muzzle ever pointed at any person
who isn't about to be deliberately shot. I have very little
patience for snotty kids and parents that don't parent, but I'd
regard "learn or die" as a bit draconian even for stupid children
-- though perhaps not for stupid or irresponsible parents.

Amen. And the real irony is that the people who weren't trained
correctly are never the victims, they're always the unwitting perps.

--
Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything
evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything.
-- Johann K. Lavater

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:33:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

snip
Your point is well taken. I was trusted with sharp tools, hazardous
chemicals and long guns as a kid. I strongly agree that the
business of blaming and sueing others for one's mishaps has gotten
out of hand.

That said, I regard handguns as sort of a special case for two
reasons. First, they've been trivialized by TV and movies, going
clear back to the cowboy movies. Only bad guys get killed in the
movies and on TV.
big snip

I can't remember when I first became aware of guns. They
were always just "there". My Dad usually had a double barrel
shotgun standing behind the kitchen door (he liked pheasant
hunting). Never new if it was loaded or not, always paid to
check first if you were going to handle it. I don't remember
any dire rules about them (guns) but I understood that they
WERE NOT TOYS or to be treated as such.

I saw plenty of movies, cartoons, comics... had my own play
guns that shot corks, water, caps, rubber bands... I knew
the difference between play guns that you shot at other kids
or stuff and the real thing that you didn't point at
anything you didn't intend to kill. I think that was seared
into my brain by the time I was maybe 6? shrug, don't know
for sure but it was a loooong time ago.

I appreciate your points made, but a parent never has
complete control of any kid. Best to teach them early on
about the difference between play guns, movie un-realities
and how real guns are to be handled/treated. That way when
they encounter a real (or looks real) at their friends
house, found somewhere, school locker they will have some
inkling of what to do. And no matter how hard parents try to
prevent their kids from encountering guns, it is going to
happen eventually.

Something about this discussion hit a nerve with me
yesterday, really sorry about being a dick head...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:33:01 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:



I appreciate your points made, but a parent never has
complete control of any kid. Best to teach them early on
about the difference between play guns, movie un-realities
and how real guns are to be handled/treated. That way when
they encounter a real (or looks real) at their friends
house, found somewhere, school locker they will have some
inkling of what to do. And no matter how hard parents try to
prevent their kids from encountering guns, it is going to
happen eventually.

I heartily agree.

Something about this discussion hit a nerve with me
yesterday, really sorry about being a dick head...

You weren't a dickhead.

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i


in today's local newspaper...

"Intruder flees with jewelry when confronted in home."

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc.../NEWS/90712002

That way when
they encounter a real (or looks real) at their friends
house, found somewhere, school locker they will have some
inkling of what to do. And no matter how hard parents try to
prevent their kids from encountering guns, it is going to
happen eventually.

You forgot drugs, STDs, pregnancy, speeding, drinking, pedophiles, etc, etc,
etc, ad nauseum. Yet, we tell our kids about these things and a lot of our
taxes go into programs so liberals can teach them about them, too.

Alas, then the kids fool with these things. Where did we go wrong? Who do
we blame? More importantly, who do we sue?

It's called free agency. In the wild, mortality rates of the young run way
above 50% in many species.

You just do your best.

Steve

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:41:15 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

snip
* I've never suffered a home invasion. No one in my family has suffered
a home invasion. The only person I know who suffered a home invasion ran
with a seriously weird crowd. I would contend that if you are worried
about home invasions then you are (a) too paranoid, (b) hanging with the
wrong people, or (c) living in the wrong part of the world. (a) can be
taken care of with medication, (b) can be taken care of by changing your
friends, and (c) can be taken care of by changing the part of the world
that you live in, or living in a different part of the world.

But what do I know.

Which one of your theories applies in this case?

http://greenvilledailynews.1upprelau...icleID=2250 9

Sometimes bad things happen for no apparent reason...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Well, to me, it's clear the dead people were clearly paranoid, hung with the
wrong crowd (I'd suspect Southern Baptist in there somewhere), living in
Greenville instead of Zimbabwe, not taking their meds, shoulda changed
friends (there's them ugly Southern Baptists again), and shoulda moved to
Sweden a long time ago.

But what do I know?

Steve

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:24:52 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Buerste wrote:

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in
message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach
that safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the
aid of some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i

Think differently, rather than "robust" go for stealth.


A stealth safe. Just don't forget where you put it. ;-)

Seriously, it takes a lot of work to make it difficult to secure a
safe, without building a building over it. Look at the ATMs being
knocked out of buildings by ramming them with a car, or some earlier
models that they could hook a cable from a wrecker to, and rip it out
of
the building.

A floor safe, set in a lot of concrete and under a heavy piece of
furniture is the most secure, and the hardest to use. The harder a
safe
is to use, the less likely it is to be used. It happens all the time.
'It takes too long to open the safe', 'Its in a hard to reach place'.
that leads to things being left out, 'till the next time I need to open
the safe'.

What good is a gun, in a safe?

If it's a cool vintage gun that you shoot once a year -- lots.

If it's your protection against home invasion* -- not much.

* I've never suffered a home invasion. No one in my family has suffered
a home invasion. The only person I know who suffered a home invasion
ran
with a seriously weird crowd. I would contend that if you are worried
about home invasions then you are (a) too paranoid, (b) hanging with the
wrong people, or (c) living in the wrong part of the world. (a) can be
taken care of with medication, (b) can be taken care of by changing your
friends, and (c) can be taken care of by changing the part of the world
that you live in, or living in a different part of the world.

But what do I know.

Do you read a newspaper? Do you have a television?

Look at them, and you'll know that home invasions happen all the time.

Steve


The San Francisco Bay area has lots. but 99.9% are ethnic groups targeting
the same ethnic group. Or a drug dealer getting invaded by those who want
his drugs and money. Extremely rare for a normal person to be invaded.

Ask anyone who's been invaded just HOW rare.

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
On 2009-07-09, jeff_wisnia wrote:

Short of placing it in a basement and doing a major heavy duty job of
securing it to floor and foundation walls there isn't much you can do to
keep thieves from ripping out and carting away anything small enough for
you to have installed in the first place.

Better to go with stealth, maybe like this:

http://livesafely.org/home-security/...n-a-wall-safe/

But, DON'T mount it in the bedroom. That's the room thieves know most
people keep or hide valuables in. Pick a laundry area or even the
kitchen.


Jeff, I do not keep my valuables (read cash and remainder of my silver) in
the bedroom, personally. I keep them where they are hard to find.

But bedroom is where women try jewelry, that is why I want a safe
there.

With a good enough safe, if I attach it to the floor and the wall with
lag screws, it will probably be hard enough to remove.

i

Two words I hate - should and probably.

Do you think that those sorts of people would be capable of removing a
safe that is attached to a wall, with lag screws?

i

You're a man very familiar with tools. On a bet, how long would it take
YOU? My choice of tools would be two. Crowbar and cordless sawzall with
extra battery and extra demo blade. Does that still count as two. So,
five, but something a guy could carry in a pillowcase.

Smash the drywall, cut four studs. I'd estimate three minutes tops.

Steve

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
,snip
Maybe go with 2 gun safes. A large upright with extra storage space
for your wife's jewelry. ouch!
http://www.gunsafes.com/Browning-Pla...-47-cu-ft.html

And another next to your bed with a pistol in it, for home intrusions.
http://www.gunsafes.com/GunVault-Min...1000C-DLX.html


I have a riding crop next to my bed, does that count?

Depends on how upset your wife would be if it went missing
......................

NOT following up SteveB.

http://greenvilledailynews.1upprelau...&subsectionID=
2&articleID=22509Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28, both were charged in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated murder, felony murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home invasion, weapons felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon and first-degree conspiracy to home invasion.


"Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28, both were charged
in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated murder, felony
murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home invasion, weapons
felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon and first-degree
conspiracy to home invasion.

Fisk also was charged with being a habitual offender third offense while
Stephan was charged with being a habitual offender fourth offense."

Looks like those felon-in-possession and other gun control laws did the
Beans a lot of good.

Just saying.

In article ,
"SteveB" wrote:

That way when
they encounter a real (or looks real) at their friends
house, found somewhere, school locker they will have some
inkling of what to do. And no matter how hard parents try to
prevent their kids from encountering guns, it is going to
happen eventually.

You forgot drugs, STDs, pregnancy, speeding, drinking, pedophiles, etc, etc,
etc, ad nauseum. Yet, we tell our kids about these things and a lot of our
taxes go into programs so liberals can teach them about them, too.

Alas, then the kids fool with these things. Where did we go wrong? Who do
we blame? More importantly, who do we sue?

It's called free agency. In the wild, mortality rates of the young run way
above 50% in many species.

You just do your best.

And usually it's good enough and sometimes it's not. Amen, Steve!

Thanks for some good sense!

It might help if otherwise good parents weren't charged with
felony-whatever because their child died from some pure accident too.
There used to be a concept called: "punished enough by the loss of their
child."

US is getting ridiculous: Somebody dies, _somebody_ has to go to jail.
People do that, you know, die. Sometimes it's nobody's fault.

On 2009-07-13, SteveB wrote:


Do you think that those sorts of people would be capable of removing a
safe that is attached to a wall, with lag screws?

i

You're a man very familiar with tools. On a bet, how long would it take
YOU? My choice of tools would be two. Crowbar and cordless sawzall with
extra battery and extra demo blade. Does that still count as two. So,
five, but something a guy could carry in a pillowcase.

If the safe was screwed both to the floor and the wall, with lag
screws going into floor joists, I would think that it would take me at
least an hour, assuming that I could use any tool obtainable at Home
Depot.

Smash the drywall, cut four studs. I'd estimate three minutes tops.

A little harder with the floor involved, though. We have oak flooring,
which would complicate matters somewhat.

All in all, it would not stop a determined burglar with many tools and
a lot of time, I agree with you here.

i

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:32:51 -0400, the infamous John Husvar
scrawled the following:

NOT following up SteveB.

http://greenvilledailynews.1upprelau...&subsectionID=
2&articleID=22509Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28, both were charged in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated murder, felony murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home invasion, weapons felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon and first-degree conspiracy to home invasion.


"Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28, both were charged
in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated murder, felony
murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home invasion, weapons
felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon and first-degree
conspiracy to home invasion.

Fisk also was charged with being a habitual offender third offense while
Stephan was charged with being a habitual offender fourth offense."

Looks like those felon-in-possession and other gun control laws did the
Beans a lot of good.

Just saying.

The 3 Strikes law did a whole lot of good, too, didn't it?

--
Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything
evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything.
-- Johann K. Lavater

Ignoramus20849 wrote in
:

On 2009-07-13, SteveB wrote:


Do you think that those sorts of people would be capable of removing
a safe that is attached to a wall, with lag screws?

i

You're a man very familiar with tools. On a bet, how long would it
take YOU? My choice of tools would be two. Crowbar and cordless
sawzall with extra battery and extra demo blade. Does that still
count as two. So, five, but something a guy could carry in a
pillowcase.

If the safe was screwed both to the floor and the wall, with lag
screws going into floor joists, I would think that it would take me at
least an hour, assuming that I could use any tool obtainable at Home
Depot.

Smash the drywall, cut four studs. I'd estimate three minutes tops.

A little harder with the floor involved, though. We have oak flooring,
which would complicate matters somewhat.

All in all, it would not stop a determined burglar with many tools and
a lot of time, I agree with you here.

It used to be that really big commercial safes were rated in "hours".
Usually they had two ratings; one for how long it would take to break in,
and one for how long they could sit in a fire before the innards reached
the ignition temperature of paper.

Nothing is burglar proof if they all the time in the world. The best you
can do is make sure it takes long enough for them to give up, get caught,
or better yet, not bother with it.

Doug White

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:32:51 -0400, the infamous John Husvar
scrawled the following:

NOT following up SteveB.

http://greenvilledailynews.1upprelau...D=2&subsection
ID=
2&articleID=22509Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28,
both were charged in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated
murder, felony murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home
invasion, weapons felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon
and first-degree conspiracy to home invasion.


"Robert "Bobby" Jay Fisk, 25, and Timothy Stephan, 28, both were charged
in 63rd District Court with first-degree premeditated murder, felony
murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, first-degree home invasion, weapons
felony firearm, weapons firearms possession by a felon and first-degree
conspiracy to home invasion.

Fisk also was charged with being a habitual offender third offense while
Stephan was charged with being a habitual offender fourth offense."

Looks like those felon-in-possession and other gun control laws did the
Beans a lot of good.

Just saying.

The 3 Strikes law did a whole lot of good, too, didn't it?

Oh, absotively!

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:07:30 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

Ignoramus20849 wrote in
:

On 2009-07-13, SteveB wrote:


Do you think that those sorts of people would be capable of removing
a safe that is attached to a wall, with lag screws?

i

You're a man very familiar with tools. On a bet, how long would it
take YOU? My choice of tools would be two. Crowbar and cordless
sawzall with extra battery and extra demo blade. Does that still
count as two. So, five, but something a guy could carry in a
pillowcase.

If the safe was screwed both to the floor and the wall, with lag
screws going into floor joists, I would think that it would take me at
least an hour, assuming that I could use any tool obtainable at Home
Depot.

Smash the drywall, cut four studs. I'd estimate three minutes tops.

A little harder with the floor involved, though. We have oak flooring,
which would complicate matters somewhat.

All in all, it would not stop a determined burglar with many tools and
a lot of time, I agree with you here.

It used to be that really big commercial safes were rated in "hours".
Usually they had two ratings; one for how long it would take to break in,
and one for how long they could sit in a fire before the innards reached
the ignition temperature of paper.

Nothing is burglar proof if they all the time in the world. The best you
can do is make sure it takes long enough for them to give up, get caught,
or better yet, not bother with it.

Doug White

Aaaaaaaaaaand... You have motion sensors in the room, and tilt/
shock/ deadman switches or other sensing devices on the safe, and a
central station burglar alarm. Oh, and a CCTV camera and recording
system would be a big plus.

The crooks better be fast at sawing through those studs, because the
Cops will be out there as quick as they possibly can when the Alarm
Company gets the message across that multiple sensors say the burglars
are trying to take or break into the *handgun safe* in the bedroom.

And the Cops won't be in a cordial mood, because they know full well
one of the things a stolen weapon would be used for.

-- Bruce --

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"SteveB" wrote:

That way when
they encounter a real (or looks real) at their friends
house, found somewhere, school locker they will have some
inkling of what to do. And no matter how hard parents try to
prevent their kids from encountering guns, it is going to
happen eventually.

You forgot drugs, STDs, pregnancy, speeding, drinking, pedophiles, etc,
etc,
etc, ad nauseum. Yet, we tell our kids about these things and a lot of
our
taxes go into programs so liberals can teach them about them, too.

Alas, then the kids fool with these things. Where did we go wrong? Who
do
we blame? More importantly, who do we sue?

It's called free agency. In the wild, mortality rates of the young run
way
above 50% in many species.

You just do your best.

And usually it's good enough and sometimes it's not. Amen, Steve!

Thanks for some good sense!

It might help if otherwise good parents weren't charged with
felony-whatever because their child died from some pure accident too.
There used to be a concept called: "punished enough by the loss of their
child."

US is getting ridiculous: Somebody dies, _somebody_ has to go to jail.
People do that, you know, die. Sometimes it's nobody's fault.

My SIL sends me pictures all the time. One is I swear to God, the medical
pictures of a young man who stuck a firecracker up his ass and lit it. It
is very clear and very graphic. Send me your e mail if you'd like a copy.
Send it to

WTF was this kid thinking? Didn't his parents tell him never to put a
firecracker up his ass and light it? Mine didn't, it was just one of those
things I figured out myself.

A "rare" thing, eh?

http://cbs3.com/topstories/foster.pa...2.1081766.html

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus10294
wrote:

I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i
Yes. Keeping a gun in a bedroom safe is moronic, slow and only gets you
killed if you need it.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:55:19 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Ignoramus10294 wrote:

On 2009-07-09, Buerste wrote:

"Ignoramus10294" wrote in message
...
I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i

Think differently, rather than "robust" go for stealth.


Stealth is a good thing, but is not a substitute for a strong
safe. Many burglars know exactly where the valuables are, especially
when it comes to jewelry. Think about, say, hiring a painter to paint
the house and telling his criminal friends where the valuables are.

Hiding cash is a little easier than, say, hiding jewelry.


Gee. All kinds of people use the same few places to hide things,
thinking, No one would look there! A friend started a security business
years ago. People would tell him no one could find their valuables. He
could find most spots in under a minute. The only way to keep it safe,
is to keep it somewhere off the property in secure storage, or just
don't own it.

Or put a second power box on a machine tool and use it for a safe.

Few burglars would think about opening something with a 480volt decal
mounted on a machine tool

Shrug

Gunner, who is quite...quite secure in his personal storages


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:57:04 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:28:18 -0700, the infamous Jim Stewart
scrawled the following:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus10294 wrote:
On 2009-07-09, jeff_wisnia wrote:
Short of placing it in a basement and doing a major heavy duty job of
securing it to floor and foundation walls there isn't much you can do
to keep thieves from ripping out and carting away anything small
enough for you to have installed in the first place.

Better to go with stealth, maybe like this:

http://livesafely.org/home-security/...n-a-wall-safe/

But, DON'T mount it in the bedroom. That's the room thieves know most
people keep or hide valuables in. Pick a laundry area or even the
kitchen.


Jeff, I do not keep my valuables (read cash and remainder of my
silver) in
the bedroom, personally. I keep them where they are hard to find.
But bedroom is where women try jewelry, that is why I want a safe
there.

With a good enough safe, if I attach it to the floor and the wall with
lag screws, it will probably be hard enough to remove.

Not sure about where you live, but out here
in N. California, about the only thieves
we ever get are smash-and-grab kids and tweekers.
They want to be in and out in 5 minutes, so
the most important aspect of security is stealth.

And don't underestimate the power of a barky dog.

plink yip thud [silence from then on]

Most young thieves wont be carrying a gun, a blow gun, nuke, etc etc.

They simply want your pawnables and more dope/beer/carpayment


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:00:10 -0400, "Buerste" wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
,snip
Maybe go with 2 gun safes. A large upright with extra storage space
for your wife's jewelry. ouch!
http://www.gunsafes.com/Browning-Pla...-47-cu-ft.html

And another next to your bed with a pistol in it, for home intrusions.
http://www.gunsafes.com/GunVault-Min...1000C-DLX.html


I have a riding crop next to my bed, does that count?

blink..ah....er.....

Nevermind

Gunner, who has restraints and other toys available for his lady friends
to wear if they so desire....


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Gunner Asch wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gee. All kinds of people use the same few places to hide things,
thinking, No one would look there! A friend started a security business
years ago. People would tell him no one could find their valuables. He
could find most spots in under a minute. The only way to keep it safe,
is to keep it somewhere off the property in secure storage, or just
don't own it.

Or put a second power box on a machine tool and use it for a safe.

Few burglars would think about opening something with a 480volt decal
mounted on a machine tool


Most people are terrified to go into my shop anyway.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:57:04 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:28:18 -0700, the infamous Jim Stewart
scrawled the following:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus10294 wrote:
On 2009-07-09, jeff_wisnia wrote:
Short of placing it in a basement and doing a major heavy duty job of
securing it to floor and foundation walls there isn't much you can do
to keep thieves from ripping out and carting away anything small
enough for you to have installed in the first place.

Better to go with stealth, maybe like this:

http://livesafely.org/home-security/...n-a-wall-safe/

But, DON'T mount it in the bedroom. That's the room thieves know most
people keep or hide valuables in. Pick a laundry area or even the
kitchen.


Jeff, I do not keep my valuables (read cash and remainder of my
silver) in
the bedroom, personally. I keep them where they are hard to find.
But bedroom is where women try jewelry, that is why I want a safe
there.

With a good enough safe, if I attach it to the floor and the wall with
lag screws, it will probably be hard enough to remove.

Not sure about where you live, but out here
in N. California, about the only thieves
we ever get are smash-and-grab kids and tweekers.
They want to be in and out in 5 minutes, so
the most important aspect of security is stealth.

And don't underestimate the power of a barky dog.

plink yip thud [silence from then on]

Most young thieves wont be carrying a gun, a blow gun, nuke, etc etc.

They simply want your pawnables and more dope/beer/carpayment


or your Gran Torino

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:00:00 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus10294
wrote:

I would like to buy a safe for a bedroom, mostly to keep my wife's
jewelry, but possibly a handgun as well.

Two issues stand out, one is what sorts of safes are robust in the
sense that they open when commanded, and another is how to attach that
safe securely so that robbers could not simply take it with the aid of
some tools like large prybars.

Any practical thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i
Yes. Keeping a gun in a bedroom safe is moronic, slow and only gets you
killed if you need it.

I know a guy who has a couple gun safes. Doesn't lock them, he
just needed someplace convenient to store his guns. Better than a
pile in the corner of the closet.


tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On 2009-07-18, Gunner Asch wrote:
Or put a second power box on a machine tool and use it for a safe.

Few burglars would think about opening something with a 480volt decal
mounted on a machine tool

Then I need to put a mirror next to the Bridgeport, so that my wife
will be able to check how she looks in all that jewelry... And I
should make sure that oil and coolant do not get on the mirror...

i

Ignoramus17055 wrote:

On 2009-07-18, Gunner Asch wrote:
Or put a second power box on a machine tool and use it for a safe.

Few burglars would think about opening something with a 480volt decal
mounted on a machine tool

Then I need to put a mirror next to the Bridgeport, so that my wife
will be able to check how she looks in all that jewelry... And I
should make sure that oil and coolant do not get on the mirror...


It would be easier just to teach her how to use the Bridgeport.



--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:48:01 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...em.asp?ID=1832


"The dead man is described as a light-skinned black man, about 6 feet, 2
inches tall and weighing about 175 pounds. He is between 25 and 35 years
of age."

Sounds like a description of Barack Obama. :-

Cheers!
Rich