Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at
a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and
friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse
of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but
the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum
distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't
how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my
mask.

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described
as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd
rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the
chest by a mule very probably isn't.

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech
course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her
precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes
coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for
even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for
pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score
they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing
her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years
now and it just keeps getting better.

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop. Oh **** oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Don Foreman wrote:
Summary: not lookin' promising.

(...)

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop.

(...)

Oxygas has a much lower potential for inductive or magnetic coupling,
I hear tell.

--Winston

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Summary: not lookin' promising.
....
Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.


I've lived with a much less serious issue for years. Shine a light in
my eyes and I can't see AT ALL. Got it from me mother. I haven't
driven at night for years and can't weld for beans. I can glob things
together with a stick if I got an edge to feel and can hold a small
metal plate in my left hand in front of the arc. Not purty and only
for stuff where I can turn the amps way up.I've found lots of places
for shrink fits and fasteners that others would weld.

Lucky for me "The Kid" didn't get my genes here. He was able to show
his daddy up at a very young age with this skill. He was good enough
that the best TIG welder in my area hired him to help out with a huge
order for stainless fixtures displayed in Dayton's stores throughout
the country. After that, he welded chest spreaders for open heart
surgery. (maybe you used some of his work) Amazing what experience
under a pro will teach you.

Let me know when you want to rent "The Kid"

Karl

Don Foreman wrote:

Summary: not lookin' promising.

The apprehension of getting a jolt whould take the fun out of for you anyway.

There is always O/A and silver brazing.

Sorry,

Wes

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:



I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

just how much welding do you need to do????
my welder sits idle for months, years at a time.

trefolex will have a big part of your future methinks.
that and a george thomas tapping fixture.

stop stuffing around with welds and get yourself a new set of taps and
dies.

.....the old get wiser, the stupid just keep on ...

Stealth Pilot

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at
a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and
friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse
of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but
the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum
distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't
how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my
mask.

OK, so ground your head, too. Piece of cake/duck soup.


The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described
as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd
rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the
chest by a mule very probably isn't.

Grok that.


I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

Amen.


So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am.

Ya wuss! Blanket up, ground your wrists, and go do it after the op.
_IF_ it still kicks you, gracefully bow out of welding for good. But
don't just give up on a happy hobby.


Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech
course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her
precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes
coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for
even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for
pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score
they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing
her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years
now and it just keeps getting better.

Most excellent, sir! SCHWING! She's a keeper.


Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop. Oh **** oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Queueing violins _now_!

--
Acceptance is such an important commodity, some
have called it "the first law of personal growth."
-- Peter McWilliams, Life 101

Don,

I sympathize with your loss. Fortunately I haven't gotten there yet
but I'm getting to where I understand where you are. Seems like only
yesterday I was indestructible and could do anything I wanted, now my
back is screwed and I can't see like I used to by any stretch. I
think you have a few decades on my too so in that way I envy you.
Frankly I'm not all that good of a welder but I have had some that
come out beautiful.

Everybody else,
For the fellows suggesting bolts and taps. When was the last time you
finished a project and looked at it and said "Damn that looks like a
mighty fine bolt". A bolt is a bolt, a good weld is a work of art - a
reduction in the entropy of the cosmos - something that makes you feel
warm and fuzzy inside.

I'm sure Don will carry on making things of utility and beauty but
let's grieve with him for this loss, not just for him but for all of
us who truly love these things we do and are going to be there someday
too.

rem

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

[snip]
I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

Another issue is that such things are quite variable, making precise
recommendations hard to make with any reliability. For one thing,
relative orientation matters a lot, and yet cannot be controlled.

However, the ICD makers probably are required to pass some EMI immunity
standards, and these will of necessity have specific numbers.
Typically, the ICD maker lists the standards they meet in the datasheet
for the ICD in question. The lawyers cannot stop this, as meeting these
standards is mandatory. What they will not publish is how much margin
against these standards the ICD provides.

Joe Gwinn

Don Foreman wrote:

Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at
a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and
friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse
of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but
the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum
distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't
how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my
mask.

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described
as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd
rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the
chest by a mule very probably isn't.

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech
course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her
precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes
coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for
even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for
pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score
they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing
her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years
now and it just keeps getting better.

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop. Oh **** oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Personally, given the reports of the things misfiring, the lack of
direct control and the fact that the world outside your shop presents
variable EMI/RFI hazards, I'd look for options other than an ICD then.
The data you've dug up leads me to consider the ICDs themselves as the
hazard, not the welding near one. Perhaps just keep an AED with you and
ensure you have someone in the vicinity who can use it.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at
a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and
friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse
of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but
the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum
distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't
how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my
mask.

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described
as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd
rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the
chest by a mule very probably isn't.

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech
course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her
precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes
coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for
even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for
pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score
they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing
her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years
now and it just keeps getting better.

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop. Oh **** oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Sorry to hear your news. My sister was the first woman in the United states
to wear an external left ventricular assist after a defib after CABG. She
ended up getting the heart of a 25 yo male who had died in a motorcycle
accident. Coming up on two years now.

Yeah, it's a bitch getting old. I am getting more hoists and using them. I
would like to fashion some type of stiffleg crane to use over my work table
and to unload the truck. I did make one for the cabin, and it works great
instead of schlepping everything up and down the stairs. Probably stuff I
should have been doing all along, but now it's a must.

Learn to work smart. And take that OA tip, too. You can still do lots of
OA. Lots of trick mechanical fasteners around, too. A friend of mine was a
stage hand back in the days when they weren't all juice babies (young men
whose father's and relative's influence got them in the union) and he could
weld something beautiful with OA. Best to you. I'm facing an operation
that is only one step under a transplant, so I'm trying to last as long as I
can.

Steve

On Jan 12, 10:40*pm, Don Foreman
wrote:
Summary: * not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: *a *senior fellow engineer at
a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr *and
friend of many years, *my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse
of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but
the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum
distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. *That ain't
how I weld: *my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my
mask. *

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described
as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd
rather skip that experience. *Welding is fun, being kicked in the
chest by a mule very probably isn't. * * * *

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H
or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. *I opined that
this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly
proprietary. *That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly
employed by a major mfr. *Goddamned lawyers. * *

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am. *

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. *Neither of my sons are at
all interested. *One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG *but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech
course in TIG and MIG. *She'd be a natural, that based on her
precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes
coordination activites. *TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for
even considering it, eh? *Hey, she severely aced ground school for
pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score
they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. *What a fool he was for doing
her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years
now and it just keeps getting better. * * *

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right?
Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill
and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find
useful in my shop. *Oh **** oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. *I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret *that gettin' old
ain't for sissies. * *

With all the intelligence and experience in this group someone might
know a way to use copper mesh in your welding clothes to create a
Faraday
Cage and attach a ground to absorb the harmfull rf. I imagine using a
signal strength tester might tell you if you're close to a solution.

dennis
in nca

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Hope you find a metal joining technique that doesn't end up throwing you
across the room! In your condition, maybe a bit of gentle exercise in front of
a nice warm forge and anvil would be good for you :-)


It's a pity that the manufacturers are unlikely to lend you a unit that could
be sewn up into a slab of beef and tested in proximity to a welding setup. I
have a suspicion that the screening on the cables and the noise rejection in
the controller _should_ be good enough to cope with the noise from welding,
But finding that it wasn't by being internally electrocuted would show rather
extreme dedication.


Good luck with the op and I hope the box sits there inside you for many years,
never being needed.

regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

Don Foreman wrote:
Summary: not lookin' promising.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while
experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl
Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at
all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with
MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

If you were in the Phoenix area, I have been known to weld for beer. I
pretty well have TIG (20years) and am learning MIG (5 sessions).

BobH

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman wrote:

I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a joke.
I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old ain't for
sissies.

Well, the flying saucer people wear foil hats - how about a "Tin Man" vest? ;-)
It should be mu-metal, for the magnetic field.

Good Luck!
Rich

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Someone asked how often I use my welding kit. I'd say a couple of
times a week some weeks, but often for only a minute or two each time.
I do little stuff. I don't care if I never build another trailer. I
very probably wouldn't anyway.

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI
specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some
measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress
the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be
an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without
giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that
tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the
goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I
can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered,
digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll
arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can **** and moan with sleeves
rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and
I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's
attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at
Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He
shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One
particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who
happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering
Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or
academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a
bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are
paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:
---
1) Don't worry about this affecting your hobby lifestyle. There are
many things that can be done to limit the risk of unintended shocks.
If you get one, you can work with your physician (and the
manufacturers sales rep) to tweak various parameters that control
sensitivity to noise. There are controls on the detection parameters
that can be turned up to make the device less sensitive.
---
From the former colleague whose wife works at Medtronic, I learned
that there is at least one professional weldor who has an ICD, pretty
strong evidence that it can be done. The key here (and probably with
all of the suppliers) is that the prescribing physician MUST WORK WITH
THE SUPPLIER. My doc seemed personable enough but also rather full of
"busy" and might actually be an arrogant young twit. I need to do
something about that. I don't fault him (much) for not knowing but I
sure as hell will fault him for being too busy or arrogant to learn.
I may be Joe Sixpack to him, don't care, but if Joe Sixpack cares
about quality of his life than the doc should too.

Someplace I saw something that said that Boston Scientific didn't just
want to extend life but wanted to extend quality life. Bingo! I
don't think it's bull**** because all of these companies have
excellent reputations as very good places to work.

If things don't turn out as I'd like, still a definite possibility,
then as others have said there's always O/A and what the hell. That's
how I started decades ago. I just hate to give up without a best
effort. The suppliers are definitely responsive. There's a number,
1-800-CARDIAC at Boston Sci for folks with questions. I was quite
impressed with the candidness and scope of knowledge of the person I
spoke with there.

At one point the person seemed unsure of how to proceed, asked some
sort of tactful question meant to discern if I might have any hope of
understanding the answer to my question. Mary was on the phone as
relay because of my hearing problem with telephones. She said, "he's
a retired electrical engineer and research scientist." The immediate
response was, "Oh Gawd! So is my father-in-law. If he got one he'd
cut it out so he could take it apart and redesign it." Back and
forth, yeh yeh yeh.

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

TBD how I'm gonna get that done. I'll have some help from my
pardner. She can be quite effective in her quiet way. I like that
about her.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:09:10 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Queueing violins _now_!

May I please have a string quartet including cello, viola and
contrabass?

You'll get your turn in the box, ol' Son.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Must you understate things so?

--major snippage--

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X
hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the
time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device
because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it
installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on
this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So
many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and
recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or
you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

I still can't believe that those turkeys no longer have to take the
Hippocratic oath.


TBD how I'm gonna get that done. I'll have some help from my
pardner. She can be quite effective in her quiet way. I like that
about her.

Hugs to Mary and a manly hug to you, Don. G'luck in your quest.
And may no mules kick you in the hawrt.

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Someone asked how often I use my welding kit. I'd say a couple of
times a week some weeks, but often for only a minute or two each time.
I do little stuff. I don't care if I never build another trailer. I
very probably wouldn't anyway.

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI
specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some
measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress
the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be
an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without
giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that
tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the
goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I
can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered,
digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll
arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can **** and moan with sleeves
rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and
I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's
attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at
Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He
shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One
particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who
happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering
Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or
academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a
bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are
paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:
---
1) Don't worry about this affecting your hobby lifestyle. There are
many things that can be done to limit the risk of unintended shocks.
If you get one, you can work with your physician (and the
manufacturers sales rep) to tweak various parameters that control
sensitivity to noise. There are controls on the detection parameters
that can be turned up to make the device less sensitive.
---
From the former colleague whose wife works at Medtronic, I learned
that there is at least one professional weldor who has an ICD, pretty
strong evidence that it can be done. The key here (and probably with
all of the suppliers) is that the prescribing physician MUST WORK WITH
THE SUPPLIER. My doc seemed personable enough but also rather full of
"busy" and might actually be an arrogant young twit. I need to do
something about that. I don't fault him (much) for not knowing but I
sure as hell will fault him for being too busy or arrogant to learn.
I may be Joe Sixpack to him, don't care, but if Joe Sixpack cares
about quality of his life than the doc should too.

Someplace I saw something that said that Boston Scientific didn't just
want to extend life but wanted to extend quality life. Bingo! I
don't think it's bull**** because all of these companies have
excellent reputations as very good places to work.

If things don't turn out as I'd like, still a definite possibility,
then as others have said there's always O/A and what the hell. That's
how I started decades ago. I just hate to give up without a best
effort. The suppliers are definitely responsive. There's a number,
1-800-CARDIAC at Boston Sci for folks with questions. I was quite
impressed with the candidness and scope of knowledge of the person I
spoke with there.

At one point the person seemed unsure of how to proceed, asked some
sort of tactful question meant to discern if I might have any hope of
understanding the answer to my question. Mary was on the phone as
relay because of my hearing problem with telephones. She said, "he's
a retired electrical engineer and research scientist." The immediate
response was, "Oh Gawd! So is my father-in-law. If he got one he'd
cut it out so he could take it apart and redesign it." Back and
forth, yeh yeh yeh.

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

TBD how I'm gonna get that done. I'll have some help from my
pardner. She can be quite effective in her quiet way. I like that
about her.

Encouraging.

The important thing to remember is - Do not ever hesitate to fire a
doctor you have issues with - They are service providers, not gods, if
you have a problem with them tell them why you are taking your business
elsewhere as you walk out the door taking your file with you. If enough
people do this they will learn. Personally I fired an allergist a year
or so ago that I clashed with and the next one I found was vastly better
and no more clashing. You are the customer, you are always right, and if
you aren't happy with the service take your business to a competitor.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:49:08 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:09:10 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Queueing violins _now_!

May I please have a string quartet including cello, viola and
contrabass?

Ah kin sells ya a right purty soundin' keyboard or pinanner with them
instermunts in 'er, Don. Howzbout this 'un?
http://tinyurl.com/a75ltx


You'll get your turn in the box, ol' Son.

Hell, I'm already feeling it at age 55. But my body and I have
decided that when the time comes for things to start failing or
falling off, I'll just keel over and be done with this trip.
While I'd surely love to die in the saddle, I think of what it would
do to the ridee's psyche and no longer want that.

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Someone asked how often I use my welding kit. I'd say a couple of
times a week some weeks, but often for only a minute or two each time.
I do little stuff. I don't care if I never build another trailer. I
very probably wouldn't anyway.

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI
specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some
measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress
the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be
an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without
giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that
tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the
goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I
can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered,
digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll
arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can **** and moan with sleeves
rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and
I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's
attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at
Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He
shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One
particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who
happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering
Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or
academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a
bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are
paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:
---
1) Don't worry about this affecting your hobby lifestyle. There are
many things that can be done to limit the risk of unintended shocks.
If you get one, you can work with your physician (and the
manufacturers sales rep) to tweak various parameters that control
sensitivity to noise. There are controls on the detection parameters
that can be turned up to make the device less sensitive.
---
From the former colleague whose wife works at Medtronic, I learned
that there is at least one professional weldor who has an ICD, pretty
strong evidence that it can be done. The key here (and probably with
all of the suppliers) is that the prescribing physician MUST WORK WITH
THE SUPPLIER. My doc seemed personable enough but also rather full of
"busy" and might actually be an arrogant young twit. I need to do
something about that. I don't fault him (much) for not knowing but I
sure as hell will fault him for being too busy or arrogant to learn.
I may be Joe Sixpack to him, don't care, but if Joe Sixpack cares
about quality of his life than the doc should too.

Someplace I saw something that said that Boston Scientific didn't just
want to extend life but wanted to extend quality life. Bingo! I
don't think it's bull**** because all of these companies have
excellent reputations as very good places to work.

If things don't turn out as I'd like, still a definite possibility,
then as others have said there's always O/A and what the hell. That's
how I started decades ago. I just hate to give up without a best
effort. The suppliers are definitely responsive. There's a number,
1-800-CARDIAC at Boston Sci for folks with questions. I was quite
impressed with the candidness and scope of knowledge of the person I
spoke with there.

At one point the person seemed unsure of how to proceed, asked some
sort of tactful question meant to discern if I might have any hope of
understanding the answer to my question. Mary was on the phone as
relay because of my hearing problem with telephones. She said, "he's
a retired electrical engineer and research scientist." The immediate
response was, "Oh Gawd! So is my father-in-law. If he got one he'd
cut it out so he could take it apart and redesign it." Back and
forth, yeh yeh yeh.

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

TBD how I'm gonna get that done. I'll have some help from my
pardner. She can be quite effective in her quiet way. I like that
about her.



Greetings Don,
Several years ago I had crushing injuries and wanted the best doctor
available to do the repair work after the initial emergency work was
done. Fortunately for me the trauma surgeon also happened to be one of
the best in the world for repairing my type of injuries. He is also a
professor and lectures other doctors world wide. However, I met
several doctors during about 2 years of surgeries who did not have the
same curiosity and vision of my doc. He would really listen to me and
did fairly risky surgeries because the potential payoff was so high
for me personally. So it really pays to have a doctor that is curious
and keeps up with ALL aspects of the work said doctor performs.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:20:12 GMT, the infamous
scrawled the following:

Greetings Don,
Several years ago I had crushing injuries and wanted the best doctor
available to do the repair work after the initial emergency work was
done. Fortunately for me the trauma surgeon also happened to be one of
the best in the world for repairing my type of injuries. He is also a
professor and lectures other doctors world wide. However, I met
several doctors during about 2 years of surgeries who did not have the
same curiosity and vision of my doc. He would really listen to me and
did fairly risky surgeries because the potential payoff was so high
for me personally. So it really pays to have a doctor that is curious
and keeps up with ALL aspects of the work said doctor performs.

I hope Don takes a copy of this email to his doctor when he next
speaks to him.

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

snip
I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and
I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's
attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.
snip

I believe it was Carlin said something like...

Somewhere out there in the World is the worst doctor and
what is really scary is that he has a full list of
appointments for the day.

Lots of people can't tell the difference (good or bad Doc).
If the doc gives you a bad feeling about the situation you
really should look around for another one to try.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Don Foreman wrote:
The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with.

What I would worry about is the fast rise time stuff from the arc
getting into the defib sense wires and having the induced noise
interpreted by the processor as the erratic spikes of a heart in
trouble. A 60 Hz sine wave is probably tolerable.

I used to use a lot of this stuff when I was chasing EMI fields:

http://www.chomerics.com//products/documents/emicat/pg190shieldwrap.pdf


If you want to try it in your test setup, send your address and I will
send out a couple of feet.

Kevin Gallimore

Don -

Need to line a full leather welding coat with some netic-conetic
metal. It won't magnetize and is anti. Used to shield
O-Scope tubes from magnetic fields.
Netic CoNetic sold by Perfection Mica Company of Chicago, Illinois. ..


Martin

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Someone asked how often I use my welding kit. I'd say a couple of
times a week some weeks, but often for only a minute or two each time.
I do little stuff. I don't care if I never build another trailer. I
very probably wouldn't anyway.

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI
specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some
measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress
the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be
an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without
giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that
tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the
goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I
can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered,
digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll
arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can **** and moan with sleeves
rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and
I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's
attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at
Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He
shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One
particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who
happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering
Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or
academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a
bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are
paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:
---
1) Don't worry about this affecting your hobby lifestyle. There are
many things that can be done to limit the risk of unintended shocks.
If you get one, you can work with your physician (and the
manufacturers sales rep) to tweak various parameters that control
sensitivity to noise. There are controls on the detection parameters
that can be turned up to make the device less sensitive.
---
From the former colleague whose wife works at Medtronic, I learned
that there is at least one professional weldor who has an ICD, pretty
strong evidence that it can be done. The key here (and probably with
all of the suppliers) is that the prescribing physician MUST WORK WITH
THE SUPPLIER. My doc seemed personable enough but also rather full of
"busy" and might actually be an arrogant young twit. I need to do
something about that. I don't fault him (much) for not knowing but I
sure as hell will fault him for being too busy or arrogant to learn.
I may be Joe Sixpack to him, don't care, but if Joe Sixpack cares
about quality of his life than the doc should too.

Someplace I saw something that said that Boston Scientific didn't just
want to extend life but wanted to extend quality life. Bingo! I
don't think it's bull**** because all of these companies have
excellent reputations as very good places to work.

If things don't turn out as I'd like, still a definite possibility,
then as others have said there's always O/A and what the hell. That's
how I started decades ago. I just hate to give up without a best
effort. The suppliers are definitely responsive. There's a number,
1-800-CARDIAC at Boston Sci for folks with questions. I was quite
impressed with the candidness and scope of knowledge of the person I
spoke with there.

At one point the person seemed unsure of how to proceed, asked some
sort of tactful question meant to discern if I might have any hope of
understanding the answer to my question. Mary was on the phone as
relay because of my hearing problem with telephones. She said, "he's
a retired electrical engineer and research scientist." The immediate
response was, "Oh Gawd! So is my father-in-law. If he got one he'd
cut it out so he could take it apart and redesign it." Back and
forth, yeh yeh yeh.

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

TBD how I'm gonna get that done. I'll have some help from my
pardner. She can be quite effective in her quiet way. I like that
about her.

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Must you understate things so?

--major snippage--

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X
hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the
time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device
because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it
installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on
this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So
many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and
recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or
you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

This is a really good way to **** the good ones off. There must be a
better way.

Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:28:57 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:20:12 GMT, the infamous
scrawled the following:

Greetings Don,
Several years ago I had crushing injuries and wanted the best doctor
available to do the repair work after the initial emergency work was
done. Fortunately for me the trauma surgeon also happened to be one of
the best in the world for repairing my type of injuries. He is also a
professor and lectures other doctors world wide. However, I met
several doctors during about 2 years of surgeries who did not have the
same curiosity and vision of my doc. He would really listen to me and
did fairly risky surgeries because the potential payoff was so high
for me personally. So it really pays to have a doctor that is curious
and keeps up with ALL aspects of the work said doctor performs.

I hope Don takes a copy of this email to his doctor when he next
speaks to him.

I think you misspelled "a copy of the whole damned thread" ...

Myself, I wouldn't be all that worried about the mule-kick, you just
tell the Doc that if it mis-fires you'll "pass it on" the next time
you see him. Just like you felt it.

Then you mention that you work out with the Heavy Bag and light
gloves so you're in shape to properly relay the message...

Then again, if your Local Doc is at all familiar with the field,
dropping a big list of names of all the A-List people you have been
calling and corresponding with to work out this problem just /might/
get his attention. You have to convince him to be as serious as you
are, or yeah, it is time to get another Doc.

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:30:50 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Must you understate things so?

--major snippage--

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X
hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the
time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device
because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it
installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on
this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So
many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and
recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or
you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

I don't think this guy is getting rich, working for Allina. He is
probably a very competent physician and surgeon.

My mother was a physician, quit practicing back in the '70's because
her employer (a University) worried more about legal issues than about
doing what would be best for the patient. That situation has gotten
significantly worse since then. These people are gunshy for good
reason.

We talked to a "device nurse" today she of a couple decades'
experience. That was interesting. I have known quite a few PhD's
in engineering who were anywhere from incompetent to dangerous in a
lab. Some technicans make contributions far beyond the recognition
and pay they get. I'm an engineer with nevermind degrees, but I'm
also a half-decent tech and I've always had enormous respect for good
technicians. Nurses have more education than technicians though less
than MD's. Nurses are traditionally strongly subservient to "doctor",
it's part of the training and a requirement of the job.

We learned a lot from this nurse today. I will now be getting a Boston
Scientific ICD rather than Medtronic, my preference based on the
incredibly good support I've had from the folks at BSci.

I think we're making some progress here.

Magnetic field sensor done today, on the bench, electronics for it
half done that I'll finish tomorrow. I now have some real specs, I
have Fitch's datalogging scope-meter, we'll see if I can skin this
kitty or whut.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:56:23 -0500, axolotl
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with.

What I would worry about is the fast rise time stuff from the arc
getting into the defib sense wires and having the induced noise
interpreted by the processor as the erratic spikes of a heart in
trouble. A 60 Hz sine wave is probably tolerable.

I used to use a lot of this stuff when I was chasing EMI fields:

http://www.chomerics.com//products/documents/emicat/pg190shieldwrap.pdf


If you want to try it in your test setup, send your address and I will
send out a couple of feet.

Thanks, Kevin!

The leads they now implant are shielded and differential/bipolar, and
I strongly doubt that they are inclined to experiment on live
patients.

The devices employ both low-level analog filtering and digital signal
processing. A V-tach heartrate of 300 bpm is still only 5 Hz.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:56:23 -0500, axolotl
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with.
What I would worry about is the fast rise time stuff from the arc
getting into the defib sense wires and having the induced noise
interpreted by the processor as the erratic spikes of a heart in
trouble. A 60 Hz sine wave is probably tolerable.

I used to use a lot of this stuff when I was chasing EMI fields:

http://www.chomerics.com//products/documents/emicat/pg190shieldwrap.pdf


If you want to try it in your test setup, send your address and I will
send out a couple of feet.

Thanks, Kevin!

The leads they now implant are shielded and differential/bipolar, and
I strongly doubt that they are inclined to experiment on live
patients.

Yeah it gets REALLY hard to find patients willing to have a unit trigger
when it shouldn't. I can't imagine why? :-)


The devices employ both low-level analog filtering and digital signal
processing. A V-tach heartrate of 300 bpm is still only 5 Hz.

300 would NOT be a good thing!

--
Steve W.

Don Foreman wrote:

I think we're making some progress here.

Magnetic field sensor done today, on the bench, electronics for it
half done that I'll finish tomorrow. I now have some real specs, I
have Fitch's datalogging scope-meter, we'll see if I can skin this
kitty or whut.


Keep us posted Don. Who knows, some day years later, your words may speak to someone
facing the same thing. After all Tee Nut lives on.

How does your sensor work? The only hal effect stuff I'm familar with is solid state
sensor looking for a magnetic piston in pneumatic cylinder.

Wes

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:47:32 -0500, the infamous Joseph Gwinn
scrawled the following:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

--major snippage--

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X
hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the
time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device
because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it
installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on
this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So
many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and
recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or
you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

This is a really good way to **** the good ones off. There must be a
better way.

Yeah, I suppose you're right, Joe. But that money talk could be done
more tactfully. He could suggest that he wants his doctor to know all
there is to know about ICDs before he puts one into his chest, then
start talking parameter adjustments.

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:46:35 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:30:50 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should
write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done
mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Must you understate things so?

--major snippage--

I need the doc to get with the program. I need a doc that'll work
with me and the device supplier on this. Three major suppliers
(Medtronic, St. Jude and Boston Scientific) are here in the cities so
I don't think I'm asking anything unreasonable.

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X
hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the
time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device
because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it
installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on
this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So
many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and
recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or
you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

I don't think this guy is getting rich, working for Allina. He is
probably a very competent physician and surgeon.

Perhaps, but you want a surgeon whos is entirely knowledgeable about
the device going into your chest, right? Were it mine, I'd insist
upon it. When I hurt my back, I got 3 opinions. The first doctor
wanted to operate on the wrong side (pain on right, he wanted to do a
foraminal laminectomy on the left side of T4.) He's the one who had me
in his office for x-rays, full physical, and consultation (the total
time for those 3 services was just over 3o minutes) and then billed
the insurance company $914 for the thick packet of crap he sent them.
When I heard his recommendation, I asked him if he'd accidentally
flipped the xray. I warned the ins co about him before declining.

The second was the foremost neurosurgeon in San Diego County at the
time, Dr. Obenchain. He wanted to go in with an RF probe and burn out
the nerves causing the pain. The procedure was fairly new with good
results, but he hadn't performed it yet, so I would have been his
guinea pig. We discussed the nerves in question and how they function
to keep people from overtwisting the vertebra. Without those to give
us pain, we could overexert and break our spines. I declined the offer
as soon as he gave me the odds: 50/50. He said I will either get
better or be worse off, but I wouldn't stay the same. That settled it.

The third doctor wanted to fuse T3, T4, and T5 together. FTN!
(FTN = Eff That Noise!)

I opted for the non-surgical route. After a year off, I forced the
insurance company to retrain me. Their idea of retraining was a $69
course for doing smog certifications. They wanted to put a man with
upper back problems in a job hunching over auto engines and bending
over to put probes in tailpipes all day. Again, FTN! I got a work
comp attorney and he got them to settle out of court in the hour
before it began. He couldn't believe our luck. She agreed to giving me
more than the judge could have forced the ins co to award (about $11k
+ training in Coleman College's Computer Electronics Technology
course.)

Time and Nature have brought my back and body to about 85% of where I
used to be with only about 10% of the pain I once endured, and some of
that is kept at bay with chiropractic visits. I call that a win.


My mother was a physician, quit practicing back in the '70's because
her employer (a University) worried more about legal issues than about
doing what would be best for the patient. That situation has gotten
significantly worse since then. These people are gunshy for good
reason.

Yeah, juries award ungodly sums for minor mistakes.


We talked to a "device nurse" today she of a couple decades'
experience. That was interesting. I have known quite a few PhD's
in engineering who were anywhere from incompetent to dangerous in a
lab. Some technicans make contributions far beyond the recognition
and pay they get. I'm an engineer with nevermind degrees, but I'm
also a half-decent tech and I've always had enormous respect for good
technicians. Nurses have more education than technicians though less
than MD's. Nurses are traditionally strongly subservient to "doctor",
it's part of the training and a requirement of the job.

Excellent!
I've known a few nurses whose utterances I hold in much higher regard
than I do any measly doctor's. They're in the trenches and get the
real educations, and it's they who keep doctors in line and out of
trouble most of the time, IMHO.


We learned a lot from this nurse today. I will now be getting a Boston
Scientific ICD rather than Medtronic, my preference based on the
incredibly good support I've had from the folks at BSci.

I think we're making some progress here.

Indeed. I'm happy for you in that regard, Don. Keep on Trudgin!
(...the happy road of destiny.)


Magnetic field sensor done today, on the bench, electronics for it
half done that I'll finish tomorrow. I now have some real specs, I
have Fitch's datalogging scope-meter, we'll see if I can skin this
kitty or whut.

GIFs at 11, please?

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:10:00 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Don Foreman wrote:

I think we're making some progress here.

Magnetic field sensor done today, on the bench, electronics for it
half done that I'll finish tomorrow. I now have some real specs, I
have Fitch's datalogging scope-meter, we'll see if I can skin this
kitty or whut.


Keep us posted Don. Who knows, some day years later, your words may speak to someone
facing the same thing.

Indeed. This thread will be live on Google for anyone doing searches
on defibs forever.


After all Tee Nut lives on.

and on, like frackin' Elvis and the Eveready Bunny.


How does your sensor work? The only hal effect
---
I'm sorry Dave. I can't do that.

--
A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all
impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and
interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your
attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you.
-- Joseph Rickaby

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:56:23 -0500, axolotl
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
The
key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla).
Finally, something I can get some traction with.
What I would worry about is the fast rise time stuff from the arc
getting into the defib sense wires and having the induced noise
interpreted by the processor as the erratic spikes of a heart in
trouble. A 60 Hz sine wave is probably tolerable.

I used to use a lot of this stuff when I was chasing EMI fields:


http://www.chomerics.com//products/documents/emicat/pg190shieldwrap.pdf


If you want to try it in your test setup, send your address and I will
send out a couple of feet.

Thanks, Kevin!

The leads they now implant are shielded and differential/bipolar, and
I strongly doubt that they are inclined to experiment on live
patients.

Yeah it gets REALLY hard to find patients willing to have a unit trigger
when it shouldn't. I can't imagine why? :-)


The devices employ both low-level analog filtering and digital signal
processing. A V-tach heartrate of 300 bpm is still only 5 Hz.

300 would NOT be a good thing!

--
Steve W.

My sis wore one of these for years, and had it trigger at some inopportune
moments. One time while flyfishing in waist deep water. She still talks
about that one.

Steve

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:10:00 -0500, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

I think we're making some progress here.

Magnetic field sensor done today, on the bench, electronics for it
half done that I'll finish tomorrow. I now have some real specs, I
have Fitch's datalogging scope-meter, we'll see if I can skin this
kitty or whut.


Keep us posted Don. Who knows, some day years later, your words may speak to someone
facing the same thing. After all Tee Nut lives on.

How does your sensor work? The only hal effect stuff I'm familar with is solid state
sensor looking for a magnetic piston in pneumatic cylinder.

Wes

A Hall effect chip is a bit of silicon that produces a voltage
proportional to the strength of the magnetic field passing thru it.
Imagine a rectangle with contacts on all four sides. Apply bias
voltage from top to bottom. Electrons then flow from top to bottom --
but if there is a magnetic field normal to (thru) the rectangle
they'll tend to drift sideways. This will produce a potential
difference from left to right.

Modern sensors integrate a bunch of electronic trickery to improve
temperature stability and reduce offset and drift, but that's the
basic idea.

Many industrial sensors integrate this function with a circuit that
switches at some level of field intensity, providing a binary or
"on-off" signal. I'm using a linear hall sensor that provides a
voltage proportional to field strength, about 4.25 millivolts per
gauss. It's the HAL400C from Micronas. Current product would be the
HAL401:

http://www.micronas.com/automotive_a...ion/index.html

Why that one? Because I had 4 of them in my junkbox. Allegro also
makes Hall sensors, and Honeywell used to, probably still does. I
like the differential output on the Micronas for rejection of noise. 4
millivolts isn't much signal when 60 Hz is in the passband. You
probably know what happens when the ground comes loose on a microphone
or magnetic phono jack: HUMMMM! I want this sensor to sense magnetic
field but ignore E field. I'll measure that separately.

It's differential output will drive an instrumentation opamp
(Burr-Brown/TI INA121) with gain of 100, then a 2-pole lowpass filter
with corner frequency of 200 Hz. I should have that all going today.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:49:08 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:09:10 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I intend to wallow in this for a while, **** you if you can't take a
joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old
ain't for sissies.

Queueing violins _now_!

May I please have a string quartet including cello, viola and
contrabass?


I think Richard Kinch plays fiddle and I play viola. Who in the r.c.m
group is the cellist and who plays bass? We'll put the quartet
together for you. And if the cellist is here, one of the guys over on
the bowed strings group wanted to know the diameter of Helicore
strings for a cello. If you've got Helicores on, get your mic out.

RWL

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Had another thought today:

Perhaps the young doc hasn't yet encountered a patient who has
expertise in a related field and doesn't yet know how to deal with
that. It's not uncommon among highly-educated young chargers. I have
ample experience with smoke, feathers, fancy dancing and
bafflebull****. I didn't deal with medical folks during my working
life but I dealt with plenty of high-talent young PhD's in science and
engineering.

A conversation with a decades-experienced "device nurse" was
enlightening.

She said that the doc would not adjust parameters in an attempt to
optimize compatibility with welding, he would adjust them to optimize
performance for the medical purpose required and intended.

Well, duh! That's exactly what he should do. Welding is optional,
dead guys don't need to weld. I could fault the young Doc's
people skills but I gotta respect a no-compromise attitude re doing
what is medically best whether I like it or not. That places
responsibility for risk of welding squarely upon me, which is exactly
where it belongs.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Had another thought today:

Perhaps the young doc hasn't yet encountered a patient who has
expertise in a related field and doesn't yet know how to deal with
that. It's not uncommon among highly-educated young chargers. I have
ample experience with smoke, feathers, fancy dancing and
bafflebull****. I didn't deal with medical folks during my working
life but I dealt with plenty of high-talent young PhD's in science and
engineering.

A conversation with a decades-experienced "device nurse" was
enlightening.

She said that the doc would not adjust parameters in an attempt to
optimize compatibility with welding, he would adjust them to optimize
performance for the medical purpose required and intended.

Well, duh! That's exactly what he should do. Welding is optional,
dead guys don't need to weld. I could fault the young Doc's
people skills but I gotta respect a no-compromise attitude re doing
what is medically best whether I like it or not. That places
responsibility for risk of welding squarely upon me, which is exactly
where it belongs.

Everywhere I've worked, if you die, they send you home. Hope your bet works
out in your favor.

Steve

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Had another thought today:

Perhaps the young doc hasn't yet encountered a patient who has
expertise in a related field and doesn't yet know how to deal with
that. It's not uncommon among highly-educated young chargers. I have
ample experience with smoke, feathers, fancy dancing and
bafflebull****. I didn't deal with medical folks during my working
life but I dealt with plenty of high-talent young PhD's in science and
engineering.

A conversation with a decades-experienced "device nurse" was
enlightening.

She said that the doc would not adjust parameters in an attempt to
optimize compatibility with welding, he would adjust them to optimize
performance for the medical purpose required and intended.

Well, duh! That's exactly what he should do. Welding is optional,
dead guys don't need to weld. I could fault the young Doc's
people skills but I gotta respect a no-compromise attitude re doing
what is medically best whether I like it or not. That places
responsibility for risk of welding squarely upon me, which is exactly
where it belongs.

The responsibility for the potential risk of welding belongs on you,
however the responsibility to adjust the device to settings to
accommodate the *requirements* of the *customer* belong on the service
provider i.e. the doctor.

Do not loose sight of the fact that this is nothing more than a business
transaction, do not get sidetracked by BS about the service provider
wanting to do what he thinks is in your best interest. *You* specify the
requirements, not the service provider and you should put those
requirements in written form and make the service provider sign off on
them.

The service providers role is to make recommendations and answer
questions, your role as the customer is to ask questions and make
decisions, even if your decisions do not follow the service providers
recommendations.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:34:13 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Had another thought today:

Perhaps the young doc hasn't yet encountered a patient who has
expertise in a related field and doesn't yet know how to deal with
that. It's not uncommon among highly-educated young chargers.

Excellent insight, Don. Gonna show him your DonRube device?


I have
ample experience with smoke, feathers, fancy dancing and
bafflebull****. I didn't deal with medical folks during my working
life but I dealt with plenty of high-talent young PhD's in science and
engineering.

I won't ask about some of that, especially the feathers.


A conversation with a decades-experienced "device nurse" was
enlightening.

She said that the doc would not adjust parameters in an attempt to
optimize compatibility with welding, he would adjust them to optimize
performance for the medical purpose required and intended.

But he should, as you'll be welding after the operation. He needs to
adjust the device to protect you as much as possible, and that means
to -your- lifestyle, not his optimum view.


Well, duh! That's exactly what he should do. Welding is optional,
dead guys don't need to weld. I could fault the young Doc's
people skills but I gotta respect a no-compromise attitude re doing
what is medically best whether I like it or not. That places
responsibility for risk of welding squarely upon me, which is exactly
where it belongs.

Ah, more ammo for the operee. Carry on...

--
If we all did the things we are capable of doing,
we would literally astound ourselves.
-- Thomas A. Edison