Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

On Jan 6, 5:07 pm, Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...stract?CRETRY=...

Don, NO ONE is going to say its OK - there might be a 0.000001%
probability that it isnt - so they will automatically say NO. This
applies to most situations, especially when your trying for, say, a
building or planning permit.

My approach is just to say "****it" and go ahead and do it. Your
family can always get a refund on the thing if you kark it....

No, seriously, if it was a problem, it would have surfaced by now, so
give it a go - if your worried, have someone nearby who can do CPR if
its a lousy guess......

Andrew VK3BFA.

On Jan 6, 4:55 pm, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?

(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)

Andrew VK3BFA.

wrote:

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

My few experiences with tig have left tingles, expecially if I wasn't wearing a glove on
both hands. Not so worried about MIG and SMAW.

Wes

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract


My first question when i read something like this is who wrote it and
how thorough were they? This article gets five stars on both counts.
As a fella that knows WAY too much about MAYO clinic, I can tell you
to trust anything they endorse. Their methods are world class.

Now I'd still use a little extra common snese. If you use bare wet
hands and stand in water while welding you know that you're in for a
rude surprise. Personally, I'd take this idea the complete other way
and use neoprene gloves and stand on a rubber mat.

Or as option "B" , "the Kid" may be the best TIG welder around. He
owes me favors. I owe you favors. he works five miles from your house.
Of course, your better 1/2 would have to feed him, and that's not
easy.

Karl

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:07:35 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

What, the tinfoil suit and hat don't catch enough for ya, huh, Don?

I'd want at least 2 grounded hands/wrists and a grounded body cover
(perhaps an apron?) if it were my ICD. Safe sorry.


My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract

That makes it sound safer.


http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Cookie-setting error.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 4:55 pm, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding
a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?

(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Gut feeling?" Is that the feeling one gets just before everything goes to
black?

If Don is the smart man I think Don is, Don will not let Don's ego and the
know it all attitude of others answer this question. Don will go to the
doctor and ask that doctor or cardiologist. Either that, or we will put
"ANDREW SAID IT WAS SAFE" on Don's tombstone.

Since a 5 way bypass, aortic valve replacement, broken back, and current
ascending aortic aneurysm, I can personally say that anyone who doesn't slow
down in the face of serious medical situations is an idiot with a death
wish. Don't mean you have to sit in the recliner in the closet, you just
pay more attention to the WALK/DON'T WALK signs. There's a lot of things
I've given up that don't make me think in any way that life is any the less
worth living. I used to be a commercial diver, and have more time in a
decompression chamber than a lot of scuba divers have underwater. On
Christmas week, I was snorkeling on Kauai. Many times. I was dying to go
scuba diving, but thought that I might just do that exactly, and didn't want
to put anyone ELSE in the position of having to take care of me. If one's
life is not worth living if they can't weld, then that life has to be pretty
shallow. I don't think Don qualifies on that.

And Don, go ask the doc, and do what he says. Some here have enough
experience to give you valid advice. The others are talking through their
Carharts. The best advice is to ask the doc and do what HE says. He's done
pretty good so far, hasn't he?

Be well.

Steve

A Google of "tig welding and pacemakers" brings up a lot of things. A lot
of guys say they weld with pacemakers and no ill effects. Thing is,
pacemakers like hearing aids are being changed and improved all the time.
So, all statements are not an across the board thing. What works for one
person may not for another. And some may be more delicate and sensitive
than others. And everyone doesn't have the same problem or body.

Check with the doctor, Don.

Steve

On 2009-01-06, SteveB wrote:
A Google of "tig welding and pacemakers" brings up a lot of things. A lot
of guys say they weld with pacemakers and no ill effects. Thing is,
pacemakers like hearing aids are being changed and improved all the time.
So, all statements are not an across the board thing. What works for one
person may not for another. And some may be more delicate and sensitive
than others. And everyone doesn't have the same problem or body.

One wonders if it would be worthwhile to talk to the manufacturer of
the pacemaker?

I agree that is it a good idea to find out for sure, but this could be
a "cover your ass" situation, where the doctor may not want to say
yes, only to later see the patient "die when TIG welding" and get
sued.

Better safe than sorry, would be a good approach here, though.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Jan 6, 10:14*am, "SteveB" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Jan 6, 4:55 pm, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. *MIG likely not so bad. *Finding
a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - *his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! *And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?

(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Gut feeling?" *Is that the feeling one gets just before everything goes to
black?

If Don is the smart man I think Don is, Don will not let Don's ego and the
know it all attitude of others answer this question. *Don will go to the
doctor and ask that doctor or cardiologist. *Either that, or we will put
"ANDREW SAID IT WAS SAFE" on Don's tombstone.

Since a 5 way bypass, aortic valve replacement, broken back, and current
ascending aortic aneurysm, I can personally say that anyone who doesn't slow
down in the face of serious medical situations is an idiot with a death
wish. *Don't mean you have to sit in the recliner in the closet, you just
pay more attention to the WALK/DON'T WALK signs. *There's a lot of things
I've given up that don't make me think in any way that life is any the less
worth living. *I used to be a commercial diver, and have more time in a
decompression chamber than a lot of scuba divers have underwater. *On
Christmas week, I was snorkeling on Kauai. *Many times. *I was dying to go
scuba diving, but thought that I might just do that exactly, and didn't want
to put anyone ELSE in the position of having to take care of me. *If one's
life is not worth living if they can't weld, then that life has to be pretty
shallow. *I don't think Don qualifies on that.

And Don, go ask the doc, and do what he says. *Some here have enough
experience to give you valid advice. *The others are talking through their
Carharts. *The best advice is to ask the doc and do what HE says. *He's done
pretty good so far, hasn't he?

Be well.

Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A VERY GOOD POST Steve.

TMT

On Jan 6, 12:07*am, Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF? * *

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far: *

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...stract?CRETRY=...

Don, I would be very nervous on this one.

You are a smart guy with knowledge of RF and computers so you
understand the basics.

If it were me, I would talk to both the doc and to the manufacturer of
the device in question.

Only...and I emphasize ONLY...they will know the answer.

And the doc will just be echoing whatever info the manufacturer
provides him.

I think the issue will be the RF emissions interfering with the
processor within the implanted device...and the levels, the spectrum
and the results from such interference will be an engineering issue
that the manufacturer would have to specifically test for. General
assumptions would not apply to specific devices or welders.

Remember that the vast majority of the population is not around
welding and the subsequent RF interference that it causes so it is not
a typical situation that a manufacturer would test for. They would
worry more about cell phones, microwaves, computers...the typical RF
environment that an average member of the population would be
subjected to.

Let us know what you find out...interesting subject.

And take care of yourself...you are a valued member here. ;)

TMT

Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Just not as good as your presidential news stories, though, right TMT?

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 10:14 am, "SteveB" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Jan 6, 4:55 pm, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding
a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?

(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Gut feeling?" Is that the feeling one gets just before everything goes to
black?

If Don is the smart man I think Don is, Don will not let Don's ego and the
know it all attitude of others answer this question. Don will go to the
doctor and ask that doctor or cardiologist. Either that, or we will put
"ANDREW SAID IT WAS SAFE" on Don's tombstone.

Since a 5 way bypass, aortic valve replacement, broken back, and current
ascending aortic aneurysm, I can personally say that anyone who doesn't
slow
down in the face of serious medical situations is an idiot with a death
wish. Don't mean you have to sit in the recliner in the closet, you just
pay more attention to the WALK/DON'T WALK signs. There's a lot of things
I've given up that don't make me think in any way that life is any the
less
worth living. I used to be a commercial diver, and have more time in a
decompression chamber than a lot of scuba divers have underwater. On
Christmas week, I was snorkeling on Kauai. Many times. I was dying to go
scuba diving, but thought that I might just do that exactly, and didn't
want
to put anyone ELSE in the position of having to take care of me. If one's
life is not worth living if they can't weld, then that life has to be
pretty
shallow. I don't think Don qualifies on that.

And Don, go ask the doc, and do what he says. Some here have enough
experience to give you valid advice. The others are talking through their
Carharts. The best advice is to ask the doc and do what HE says. He's done
pretty good so far, hasn't he?

Be well.

Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A VERY GOOD POST Steve.

TMT

On Jan 6, 7:59*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
Just not as good as your presidential news stories, though, right TMT?

--
WB
.........
metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On Jan 6, 10:14 am, "SteveB" wrote:





wrote in message

...

On Jan 6, 4:55 pm, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding
a cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.

Were you given a list of things to avoid?

Be careful and don't be a lab rat,

Wes

Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....

Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......

And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?

(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Gut feeling?" Is that the feeling one gets just before everything goes to
black?

If Don is the smart man I think Don is, Don will not let Don's ego and the
know it all attitude of others answer this question. Don will go to the
doctor and ask that doctor or cardiologist. Either that, or we will put
"ANDREW SAID IT WAS SAFE" on Don's tombstone.

Since a 5 way bypass, aortic valve replacement, broken back, and current
ascending aortic aneurysm, I can personally say that anyone who doesn't
slow
down in the face of serious medical situations is an idiot with a death
wish. Don't mean you have to sit in the recliner in the closet, you just
pay more attention to the WALK/DON'T WALK signs. There's a lot of things
I've given up that don't make me think in any way that life is any the
less
worth living. I used to be a commercial diver, and have more time in a
decompression chamber than a lot of scuba divers have underwater. On
Christmas week, I was snorkeling on Kauai. Many times. I was dying to go
scuba diving, but thought that I might just do that exactly, and didn't
want
to put anyone ELSE in the position of having to take care of me. If one's
life is not worth living if they can't weld, then that life has to be
pretty
shallow. I don't think Don qualifies on that.

And Don, go ask the doc, and do what he says. Some here have enough
experience to give you valid advice. The others are talking through their
Carharts. The best advice is to ask the doc and do what HE says. He's done
pretty good so far, hasn't he?

Be well.

Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A VERY GOOD POST Steve.

TMT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

I'm not part of the present problem of senseless gossip by seemingly adult
men here, that worship their meaningless heros.

It was understood that you hate Bush, and there's no reason why anyone else
would care how you feel about the next or past things that he does/did.

You're the ****ed off two-year-old that didn't get his cookie.

How ****ing traumatic, you're injured for life, but no one really gives a
rats ass.

You bitching doesn't make anyone care about your feelings.

I'm not one of the bush cheerleaders that you love to get into worthless
****ing contests with.

And later, it will be another non-important issue. You have to defend your
heros and condemn the others to no end, other than to attempt to create your
own legacy on usenet.

What an ambitious and admirable cause to aspire to.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

Hope your saving up to pay Obaminations trillion dollar debt.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...bama-response/

President-elect Barack Obama predicted Tuesday that the nation could see
"trillion-dollar deficits for years to come," but said the country needs
to continue spending taxpayer dollars to get the economy back on track.

--
Steve W.

On Jan 6, 11:19*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

Hope your saving up to pay Obaminations trillion dollar debt.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...venes-confront...

President-elect Barack Obama predicted Tuesday that the nation could see
"trillion-dollar deficits for years to come," but said the country needs
to continue spending taxpayer dollars to get the economy back on track.

--
Steve W.

Nice try spinning a Republican lie but no cigar

Correction...Bush's trillion deficit...and to think that Clinton gave
him a balanced budget.

If Gore had been elected we would have a surplus now.

TMT

On Jan 6, 10:35*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm not part of the present problem of senseless gossip by seemingly adult
men here, that worship their meaningless heros.

It was understood that you hate Bush, and there's no reason why anyone else
would care how you feel about the next or past things that he does/did.

You're the ****ed off two-year-old that didn't get his cookie.

How ****ing traumatic, you're injured for life, but no one really gives a
rats ass.

You bitching doesn't make anyone care about your feelings.

I'm not one of the bush cheerleaders that you love to get into worthless
****ing contests with.

And later, it will be another non-important issue. You have to defend your
heros and condemn the others to no end, other than to attempt to create your
own legacy on usenet.

What an ambitious and admirable cause to aspire to.

--
WB
.........
metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

Hey...everyone needs a goal to aspire to.

If I can help take our great Country back from those who are
destroying it, I consider that a worthwhile goal.

Now back to my question...do you have your check signed to pay off
your portion of the one trillion national deficit that Bush has run
up...and you are liable for it.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Jan 6, 11:19 pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.
Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?
TMT
Hope your saving up to pay Obaminations trillion dollar debt.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...venes-confront...

President-elect Barack Obama predicted Tuesday that the nation could see
"trillion-dollar deficits for years to come," but said the country needs
to continue spending taxpayer dollars to get the economy back on track.

--
Steve W.

Nice try spinning a Republican lie but no cigar

Correction...Bush's trillion deficit...and to think that Clinton gave
him a balanced budget.

If Gore had been elected we would have a surplus now.

TMT


It came out of Obamas own mouth.

"We're already looking at a trillion-dollar budget deficit or close to a
trillion-dollar budget deficit, and that potentially we've got
trillion-dollar deficits for years to come, even with the economic
recovery that we are working on at this point," Obama said.

The president-elect was lobbying Capitol Hill as the 111th Congress
convenes, attempting to pitch an economy recovery package estimated to
hit about $775 billion.

Asked about concerns of increased deficit spending, Obama said: "We know
that we're going to have to spend money to jump-start the economy."

If Gore had been elected the US would be a UN subjugated nation.
--
Steve W.

Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Please note that the first article was written in 1995 which means that the
data will be at least 15 years out of date. The specific Medtronic models
are probably no longer in use. Second, TIG or MIG were *not* specifically
mentioned. Third, if you accept their findings and recommendations as
applicable to *your* system can you really and reliably keep the arc away by
61 cm? I know I cannot! Also, do you enjoy "delivered therapy" (read:
inappropriate shocks)?

I am sorry I cannot comment on the second article which the web site will
not open for me.

This is a highly subspecialized field. Your best bet, as others advised, is
to talk to your pacemaker clinic doctor, nurse and the rep of the company
that made your defib. The company reps can be especially helpful in
un-earthing arcane research items etc.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question.

You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One of the RF protective suits used by tower crews working with love
transmitters would probable do the job. The same for the suits used by
the folks fixing transmission lines from helis.

Both are probably far in excess of what is actually required though, and
just not wrapping the welding leads around your chest is probably
enough, though I doubt you'll get anyone with any authority to take that
stand due to paranoia.


Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

DC to Daylight...

On 2009-01-07, Pete C. wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One of the RF protective suits used by tower crews working with love
transmitters would probable do the job. The same for the suits used by
the folks fixing transmission lines from helis.

The issue is magnetic fields, not RF.

i

Both are probably far in excess of what is actually required though, and
just not wrapping the welding leads around your chest is probably
enough, though I doubt you'll get anyone with any authority to take that
stand due to paranoia.


Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

DC to Daylight...

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus13440 wrote:

On 2009-01-07, Pete C. wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One of the RF protective suits used by tower crews working with love
transmitters would probable do the job. The same for the suits used by
the folks fixing transmission lines from helis.

The issue is magnetic fields, not RF.

They are somewhat inseparable, and it is the RF that would be picked up
by the heart leads more than EM.

On Jan 7, 2:15*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:





Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF? * *

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far: *

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...article/PII073....
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...stract?CRETRY=....

Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

* Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. *Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question. *

* You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. *Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. *They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

* Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. *That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

* And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

* IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

* And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. *That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

* The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

*The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

* (A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. *And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

* Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

* * *-- Bruce --- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

" And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS! "

Damn...that is a great idea...thanks for mentioning it.


TMT

On Jan 7, 9:15*am, Ignoramus13440 ignoramus13...@NOSPAM.
13440.invalid wrote:
On 2009-01-07, Pete C. wrote:



"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

*The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

* (A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. *And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One of the RF protective suits used by tower crews working with love
transmitters would probable do the job. The same for the suits used by
the folks fixing transmission lines from helis.

The issue is magnetic fields, not RF.

i

Both are probably far in excess of what is actually required though, and
just not wrapping the welding leads around your chest is probably
enough, though I doubt you'll get anyone with any authority to take that
stand due to paranoia.

* Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

DC to Daylight...

--
* *Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
* * * to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
* * * *from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
* * * * *more readers you will need to find a different means of
* * * * * * * * * * * *posting on Usenet.
* * * * * * * * * *http://improve-usenet.org/

Actually Ig it could be both electrical and magnetic fields.

TMT

On Jan 7, 2:15*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:





Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF? * *

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far: *

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...article/PII073....
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...stract?CRETRY=....

Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

* Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. *Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question. *

* You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. *Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. *They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

* Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. *That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

* And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

* IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

* And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. *That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

* The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

*The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

* (A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. *And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

* Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.

* * *-- Bruce --- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Suddenly a image of Don totally wrapped in aluminum foil with
accompanying tinfoil hat springs into view ;)

Are the Scarecrow, the Lion, Dorthry and Toto far behind?

Maybe that is how they do weld in Kansas?

TMT

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:21:13 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

A Google of "tig welding and pacemakers" brings up a lot of things. A lot
of guys say they weld with pacemakers and no ill effects. Thing is,
pacemakers like hearing aids are being changed and improved all the time.
So, all statements are not an across the board thing. What works for one
person may not for another. And some may be more delicate and sensitive
than others. And everyone doesn't have the same problem or body.

Check with the doctor, Don.

Steve

I shall talk to the Dr. on Friday ... but I suspect that he'll know
about as much about electrical engineering and welding as I know about
cardiology. The docs I've had the good fortune to work with have not
been particularly legally gunshy, tending to say what they know and
what they think fairly openly.

The article from the JACC (Journal of the Americal College of
Cardiology) was most illuminating in that it cited quantitative data
-- millivolts, amperes, flux density (in gauss rather than Tesla, well
they are cardiologists). Current levels cited there 900A) are
considerably higher than any I ever employ.

Anecdotal reports are that it's not usually a problem and if it is a
problem it won't fry the device or its user: advice is if you feel
light-headed or wierd, just stop welding.

Medtronic HQ is right here in Fridley, if I could figure out a way to
talk to an engineer there. All the guys I knew that worked there are
retired now.

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:42:17 -0800, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01477/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Please note that the first article was written in 1995 which means that the
data will be at least 15 years out of date. The specific Medtronic models
are probably no longer in use. Second, TIG or MIG were *not* specifically
mentioned. Third, if you accept their findings and recommendations as
applicable to *your* system can you really and reliably keep the arc away by
61 cm? I know I cannot! Also, do you enjoy "delivered therapy" (read:
inappropriate shocks)?

I am sorry I cannot comment on the second article which the web site will
not open for me.

This is a highly subspecialized field. Your best bet, as others advised, is
to talk to your pacemaker clinic doctor, nurse and the rep of the company
that made your defib. The company reps can be especially helpful in
un-earthing arcane research items etc.

I just realized that I do know someone at Medtronic. I think she's an
MD. Her husband was a colleague of mine and I saw them both just a
couple of months ago.

Don Foreman wrote:

Anecdotal reports are that it's not usually a problem and if it is a
problem it won't fry the device or its user: advice is if you feel
light-headed or wierd, just stop welding.

That sounds reasonable but, 'you bet your life on it'. Be a careful man and do the
research. I sure would miss your posts.

Wes

Don Foreman wrote:
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

How about a different approach. Others have mentioned a conductive suit.
Shield your welder and welding leads. Greenfield flex conduit over most
of the cable with shielded Zippertubing over the rest. More difficult to
use the welder, of course, but _perhaps_ a significant reduction in
radiation is enough.
The key is to find out what levels the medical device is required to
withstand. The manufacturer is more likely to tell you the test standard
than to tell you it's okay to engage in an activity over which they have
no control.

This page has some standard levels, and compared to the death ray
business (200v/meter is common) the field strength the medical devices
have to stand is next to nothing.

http://www.devicelink.com/mddi/archive/02/08/003.html

If in doubt, don't. There are lots of other things to enjoy.



Kevin Gallimore

Keywords:
In article , Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:


http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...II073510979600
1477/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...ETRY=1&SRETRY=
0


Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question.

You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One possible source for a torso sized Farraday cage is a fencing
"lame". Modern fencing (as in: Touche!) uses electronic scoring. When
the tip or blade of your weapon touches the metalized jacket of your
opponent, it completes a circuit to score a touch. Foil uses a
conductive fabric vest that just covers the torso, and saber uses one
with conductive sleeves. There are several technologies around. The old
ones used to have silver plated copper wire woven into the fabric. Newer
ones have stainless steel wires or conductive plastic coatings. Because
of the physical activity & constant poking & thwacking, they tend to wear
out over time, or they corrode from sweat to the point where they develop
dead spots where a touch won't score. The point is that a heavily used
one that you could get cheap may be suspect. A good foil vest goes for
~$65 - $100.

Doug White

You mentally crippled misguided dimwit. You will not affect any change by
bitching about history in a usenet newsgroup, none, zero.

You're a closet McVey, I presume.

Delusions of grandeur. You won't take back jack ****.

Your relentless postings and crossposting of news stories regarding your
obsessions shows that you have no respect for anyone here in RCM.

You're not educating anyone on any level, other than demonstrating what a
****up you are.

Your presence appears to be as worthless as your expressed opinions.

By the time the next administrations get done taxing your food, water, air,
unemployment compensation and social security, I won't owe anything.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 10:35 pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm not part of the present problem of senseless gossip by seemingly adult
men here, that worship their meaningless heros.

It was understood that you hate Bush, and there's no reason why anyone
else
would care how you feel about the next or past things that he does/did.

You're the ****ed off two-year-old that didn't get his cookie.

How ****ing traumatic, you're injured for life, but no one really gives a
rats ass.

You bitching doesn't make anyone care about your feelings.

I'm not one of the bush cheerleaders that you love to get into worthless
****ing contests with.

And later, it will be another non-important issue. You have to defend your
heros and condemn the others to no end, other than to attempt to create
your
own legacy on usenet.

What an ambitious and admirable cause to aspire to.

--
WB
.........
metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

Apparently you don't recognize that you are part of the problem.

Got your share of the Bush trillion dollar deficit ready to send in
yet?

TMT

Hey...everyone needs a goal to aspire to.

If I can help take our great Country back from those who are
destroying it, I consider that a worthwhile goal.

Now back to my question...do you have your check signed to pay off
your portion of the one trillion national deficit that Bush has run
up...and you are liable for it.

TMT

On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:45:00 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:01:56 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Keywords:
In article , Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:


http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...II073510979600
1477/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...ETRY=1&SRETRY=
0


Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question.

You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One possible source for a torso sized Farraday cage is a fencing
"lame". Modern fencing (as in: Touche!) uses electronic scoring. When
the tip or blade of your weapon touches the metalized jacket of your
opponent, it completes a circuit to score a touch. Foil uses a
conductive fabric vest that just covers the torso, and saber uses one
with conductive sleeves. There are several technologies around. The old
ones used to have silver plated copper wire woven into the fabric. Newer
ones have stainless steel wires or conductive plastic coatings. Because
of the physical activity & constant poking & thwacking, they tend to wear
out over time, or they corrode from sweat to the point where they develop
dead spots where a touch won't score. The point is that a heavily used
one that you could get cheap may be suspect. A good foil vest goes for
~$65 - $100.

Doug White

Mary has suggested cutting the bottom out of a garbage can and putting
shoulder straps on it. I think she just wants the photos.

Jano...that would be neet..anja could pump in cool air from the exhaust
from da shopvac....a nifty air conditioned shell you could weld from in
comfort!

Or hook it up to the shop heater fer ya guys what live inda snow country




Stuff I've read so far seems to indicate that E-fields are usually not
an issue. The ICD device inputs are differential input, E-fields are
significantly attenuated by our bodies and the ICD's themselves have
effective shielding. If there is an issue it'll be due to magnetic
fields and their first time derivative. Lame, foil, etc would have
negligible effect on B-fields of frequencies that would matter.


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:21:13 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

A Google of "tig welding and pacemakers" brings up a lot of things. A lot
of guys say they weld with pacemakers and no ill effects. Thing is,
pacemakers like hearing aids are being changed and improved all the time.
So, all statements are not an across the board thing. What works for one
person may not for another. And some may be more delicate and sensitive
than others. And everyone doesn't have the same problem or body.

Check with the doctor, Don.

Steve

I shall talk to the Dr. on Friday ... but I suspect that he'll know
about as much about electrical engineering and welding as I know about
cardiology. The docs I've had the good fortune to work with have not
been particularly legally gunshy, tending to say what they know and
what they think fairly openly.

The article from the JACC (Journal of the Americal College of
Cardiology) was most illuminating in that it cited quantitative data
-- millivolts, amperes, flux density (in gauss rather than Tesla, well
they are cardiologists). Current levels cited there 900A) are
considerably higher than any I ever employ.

Anecdotal reports are that it's not usually a problem and if it is a
problem it won't fry the device or its user: advice is if you feel
light-headed or wierd, just stop welding.

Medtronic HQ is right here in Fridley, if I could figure out a way to
talk to an engineer there. All the guys I knew that worked there are
retired now.

I imagine that the occupational safety doctors do know the bottom-line
answer. Lots of welders have heart problems, but we have not heard so
many stories that they had to retire because the HF from TIG or MIG
welders bothered their pacemakers.

Anyway, these doctors are the ones that make the legal decision as to
what activities (and thus jobs) must be curtailed subsequent to any
medical procedure or condition.

The doctor that implanted the defib probably also does know the answer,
even if he has no idea what a Tesla is.

Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:30:09 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

snip
I just realized that I do know someone at Medtronic. I think she's an
MD. Her husband was a colleague of mine and I saw them both just a
couple of months ago.

An off the wall thought, can you get a model that has some
sort of way to disable it temporarily? Maybe a remote
control using a digital code, or better yet an external
reset switch ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:45:00 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:01:56 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Keywords:
In article , Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:


http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...II073510979600
1477/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...ETRY=1&SRETRY=
0


Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question.

You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One possible source for a torso sized Farraday cage is a fencing
"lame". Modern fencing (as in: Touche!) uses electronic scoring. When
the tip or blade of your weapon touches the metalized jacket of your
opponent, it completes a circuit to score a touch. Foil uses a
conductive fabric vest that just covers the torso, and saber uses one
with conductive sleeves. There are several technologies around. The old
ones used to have silver plated copper wire woven into the fabric. Newer
ones have stainless steel wires or conductive plastic coatings. Because
of the physical activity & constant poking & thwacking, they tend to wear
out over time, or they corrode from sweat to the point where they develop
dead spots where a touch won't score. The point is that a heavily used
one that you could get cheap may be suspect. A good foil vest goes for
~$65 - $100.

Doug White

Mary has suggested cutting the bottom out of a garbage can and putting
shoulder straps on it. I think she just wants the photos.

Stuff I've read so far seems to indicate that E-fields are usually not
an issue. The ICD device inputs are differential input, E-fields are
significantly attenuated by our bodies and the ICD's themselves have
effective shielding. If there is an issue it'll be due to magnetic
fields and their first time derivative. Lame, foil, etc would have
negligible effect on B-fields of frequencies that would matter.
I have a doodad that shows the relative strength of RF in the vicinity
of the doodad. It's not very selective, just has a bunch of LEDs that
light up, more lit means stronger field. Anyway, using it near my TIG
welder and torch with different types of cobbled up RF shields shows
that proximity is most important. My "shielding" hardly attenuated the
RF at all, while moving the welding cables to different places made
the most difference. The RF radiation from the interaction of the
torch, ground plate, and cables is directional too. So it appears
that, using my cheap RF detecter, my RF shielding is almost useless
compared to keeping the cables and torch as far away as possible.
ERS

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I imagine that the occupational safety doctors do know the bottom-line
answer. Lots of welders have heart problems, but we have not heard so
many stories that they had to retire because the HF from TIG or MIG
welders bothered their pacemakers.

Anyway, these doctors are the ones that make the legal decision as to
what activities (and thus jobs) must be curtailed subsequent to any
medical procedure or condition.

The doctor that implanted the defib probably also does know the
answer, even if he has no idea what a Tesla is.


You need to look at how such decisions are made. For most activities there
are simply not sufficient data (see my post on ham radio). The decision is
then guided by what is reasonable under the circumstances and yes, the
medicolegal issues are very much in play.

For example someone mentioned using a fencing lame for protection. This is a
brilliant idea but until it has been tested *on human subjects* there is no
way a Dr. will recommend one way or the other on its use (to my knwledge
such research has not been done). In fact I wish I took up fencing earlier,
it would have made for an interesting study.

Is recommendation based on reasonable analysis of the problem (read:
educated guess) always good? History of medicine is full of episodes where a
good idea on paper turned out to be a very bad idea in practice. So the
advice the doc gives you today may be reversed tomorrow. That is the nature
of the beast.

Don is fortunate that he has a cardiac problem (well, fortunate is perhaps a
poor choice of words :-) in that cardiology has one of the best specialty
records of testing hypotheses and most of the practice is evidence based.
However, there are many holes in the knowledge and areas where testing
simply will not happen unless someone is really interested and *can get the
money to do the research*. Sadly, most of the current research is funded by
pharmaceutical companies and is directed to drive sales of their products.
So, unless an enterprising cardiologist can bamboozle Miller or Lincoln
together, perhaps, with Leon Paul or another fencing manufacturer to put up
money for a study we shall never know if the lames work as a protection.

In all this one has to realize that as a patient one is a sovereign being
and has a right to make ones own decision when presented with options unless
there are legal issues affecting others e.g. driving. There are many who
refuse treatment and do well. Longevity is not always the highest priority.
The important thing is that the decision is *informed*. Which brings us full
circle.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Jan 8, 12:45*am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:01:56 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:





Keywords:
In article , Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF? * *

My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far: *

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...article/PII073....
1477/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...stract?CRETRY=....
0

Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.

The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.

*Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. *Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question. *

*You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. *Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. *They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.

*Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. *That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.

*And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.

*IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.

*And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. *That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!

*The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.

The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.

*(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. *And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)

One possible source for a torso sized Farraday cage is a fencing
"lame". *Modern fencing (as in: Touche!) uses electronic scoring. *When
the tip or blade of your weapon touches the metalized jacket of your
opponent, it completes a circuit to score a touch. *Foil uses a
conductive fabric vest that just covers the torso, and saber uses one
with conductive sleeves. *There are several technologies around. *The old
ones used to have silver plated copper wire woven into the fabric. *Newer
ones have stainless steel wires or conductive plastic coatings. *Because
of the physical activity & constant poking & thwacking, they tend to wear
out over time, or they corrode from sweat to the point where they develop
dead spots where a touch won't score. *The point is that a heavily used
one that you could get cheap may be suspect. *A good foil vest goes for
~$65 - $100.

Doug White

Mary has suggested cutting the bottom out of a garbage can and putting
shoulder straps on it. *I think she just wants the photos. *

Stuff I've read so far seems to indicate that E-fields are usually not
an issue. *The ICD device inputs are differential input, *E-fields are
significantly attenuated by our bodies and the ICD's themselves have
effective shielding. *If there is an issue it'll be due to magnetic
fields *and their first time derivative. *Lame, foil, etc would have
negligible effect on B-fields of frequencies that would matter. *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Funny..the lady has a good sense of humor.

Tell Mary to post them. ;)

No pants allowed.

If B-fields are the concern, then mu-metal will do the job...darn
expensive though.

TMT