"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote:

I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing

A guy sold his land to a Meijer chain a number of years ago. Bought land 4
miles from me for his new air field. One home owner sued him to death on
fears of an airplane crashing into his home. I could not belive this a hole
prevailed. It would have been very cool to have a grass strip 4 miles away.


Wes
EAA Member since July 87
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit. OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?

Well, I guess you don't even need pipe or tubing. Could be anything that
bends easily. What about using ethafoam cylinders the right diameter.
Sorta like those floating things kids use in the pool, only smaller in
diameter. Shape the pieces and glue them together. Once you like the
shape, give each piece a coat of 4 oz fiberglass cloth, using your
favorite resin.
Maybe ABS plastic water pipe. Cut, notch and bend as needed, then
heat weld the joints. Add stiffeners as needed on the inside of bends
so they don't get in the way at the mufffler shop.

Pete Stanaitis
------------------

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit. OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?

Half-inch electrical conduit and pipe insulation?

You can bend it with a conduit bender if your knee won't do, and the
pipe insulation will bulk it up until it's the right size.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?



I have seen "bendable" as opposed to "flexible" exhaust tubing. It was solid
but corrugated. I think JC Whitney used to carry it. In smaller sizes, you
could use the corrugated pipes intended for gas appliance or water heater
connections.

Be sure your exhaust shop is capable and willing to fabricate from your
model. I had no luck getting a small block Mopar Y-pipe duplicated at my
local shops. They were willing to build and fit it on the motor only.

Don Young

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?




I have several sets of the ICE systems that have saved me a fortune in fit
loss. You may want to take a look
http://www.spectrum5.com/ICE%20Article.htm

Respects,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

Don Young wrote:
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?



I have seen "bendable" as opposed to "flexible" exhaust tubing. It was solid
but corrugated. I think JC Whitney used to carry it. In smaller sizes, you
could use the corrugated pipes intended for gas appliance or water heater
connections.

Be sure your exhaust shop is capable and willing to fabricate from your
model. I had no luck getting a small block Mopar Y-pipe duplicated at my
local shops. They were willing to build and fit it on the motor only.

Don Young


Were you asking to get the whole thing done, or just the pipes bent?

I doubt that I'd want to build a header in the air to go onto an engine
later -- but I could see bending a bunch of pipes (if I hand a bender)
for someone to weld up themselves.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Rob Fraser wrote:
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .

I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?





I have several sets of the ICE systems that have saved me a fortune in fit
loss. You may want to take a look
http://www.spectrum5.com/ICE%20Article.htm

Respects,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.




Serious spaghetti there!

"spaco" wrote in message
.. .
Well, I guess you don't even need pipe or tubing. Could be anything that
bends easily. What about using ethafoam cylinders the right diameter.
Sorta like those floating things kids use in the pool, only smaller in
diameter. Shape the pieces and glue them together. Once you like the
shape, give each piece a coat of 4 oz fiberglass cloth, using your
favorite resin.
Maybe ABS plastic water pipe. Cut, notch and bend as needed, then heat
weld the joints. Add stiffeners as needed on the inside of bends so they
don't get in the way at the mufffler shop.

Pete Stanaitis
Thanks for the ideas. I'm finding that with the flex conduit I can cut 4
equal length pieces and squiggle them around all at the same time and come
up with a good solution. To do one pipe at a time it is very hard to get
from point A to point B and end up with 4 pipes of the same length. It is a
trial and error process that involves many trials. Rob Fraser touted a kit
that could help but the kit is $800. If I was in the tuned exhaust business
this would be a good deal. Another suggestion invovle "bendable" rather
than flexible tubing such as used in hot water heater installations. This
sounds good because you can start with 4 pices of equal length and squiggle
until you get therm right. I have the engine setting where I can get to it
and the 4-into-one attached to the frame and all I should have to do is
squiggle them in and then make sure they don't move from there to the tube
bender. In theory I should be able to get the headers without any welded
joints between the engine and collector.

Stu

"Don Young" wrote in message
news:8MednS-qr-1ws6vVnZ2dnUVZ_sKqnZ2d@worldwebinternetservicespro videinc...

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I
changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a
bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal
length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it
rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?



I have seen "bendable" as opposed to "flexible" exhaust tubing. It was
solid but corrugated. I think JC Whitney used to carry it. In smaller
sizes, you could use the corrugated pipes intended for gas appliance or
water heater connections.

Be sure your exhaust shop is capable and willing to fabricate from your
model. I had no luck getting a small block Mopar Y-pipe duplicated at my
local shops. They were willing to build and fit it on the motor only.

Don Young

Don: Thanks for the "bendable" vs "flexible" that may just be what I need.
I just sent my wife to pick up some of the copper "Bendable" tubing used in
hot water heater installations. It makes my problem much easier if I can
have 4 equal length pieces and squiggle them around all at the same time to
fit between the engine and collector. That way the collector location can
float a bit so that I end up with a smooth flowing set of equal length
pipes. The length has been determined from engine dyno studies and should
all be the same within 1/4 inch.

" Were you asking to get the whole thing done, or just the pipes bent?

I doubt that I'd want to build a header in the air to go onto an engine
later -- but I could see bending a bunch of pipes (if I hand a bender) for
someone to weld up themselves.


Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Tim: I just need the modelling done for each of 4 pipes. I've found a shop
that says they can bend SS tube to match my model.
I've got a certain amount of flexibility in the mounting of the collector
and very little framing to dodge. The problem has just been that I started
with 4 equal length pipes and was trying to determine the bend angles that
I needed to start from 4 cylinders in an opposed engine and end up in the
collector. I could get one pipe and even two pipes arranged and then the
other two pipes would not come close to the collector. It seemed that the
bend angles of all 4 pipes had to be determined simultaneously to meet the
boundary conditions. The flex conduit did that but how to hold the bends in
place long enough to get the pipes bent.
Stu

I have several sets of the ICE systems that have saved me a fortune in fit
loss. You may want to take a look
http://www.spectrum5.com/ICE%20Article.htm

Respects,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

Rob: Thanks. The ICE systems does look like a hot set up. However for
just one exhaust system their plastic blocks are a bit pricey @ $800. That
coupled with the fact that I need 4 pieces of pipe each about 34inches long
would require a minimum of 136 pieces of plastic at 1inch increments. Their
$800 "Street Bike" kit only had 55 pieces. There was no indication on their
web site that longer straight pieces were available.

Stu

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" fired this volley in
:
..wescottdesign.com

Tim: I just need the modelling done for each of 4 pipes. I've found
a shop that says they can bend SS tube to match my model.

That's good, because flex pipe doesn't resonate well. You need a good
model, and rigid pipe (go with the bender guys).

(Ahhh... the SWEET sound of an un-muffled O-540 with tuned pipes!)
(oh... sorry... that's an o-320... a little guy)

LLoyd

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .

I have several sets of the ICE systems that have saved me a fortune in
fit loss. You may want to take a look
http://www.spectrum5.com/ICE%20Article.htm

Respects,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

Rob: Thanks. The ICE systems does look like a hot set up. However for
just one exhaust system their plastic blocks are a bit pricey @ $800.
That coupled with the fact that I need 4 pieces of pipe each about
34inches long would require a minimum of 136 pieces of plastic at 1inch
increments. Their $800 "Street Bike" kit only had 55 pieces. There was
no indication on their web site that longer straight pieces were
available.

Stu
]

Great thing is they will gladly build you a custom kit that won't kill the
wallet. In conjunction with Solidworks or CAD you can get a lot of flow
dynamics as the individual parts have values established for them. I love
em' but cried when I wrote the check! They are really great for high
performance development. It's the only show in town I found that works for
me on turbo manifolds and funky headers.
I tried to offers sponsor space on my funny car and they politely
declined. They know they got us by the short & curly hairs....

Respects,

Rob Fraser

Fraser Competition Engines
Chicago, IL.

Your experience is in no way unique. I have had countless projects where
I needed something done-the places capable of doing it treat you like
you're crazy if the project goes .001" outside their normal routine.
Example: I needed some 4"X8" copper faced circuit boards screen printed
with my traces. Had all the necessary prints for scanning ready to go. 3
shops looked at me like I just dropped in from Venus. This was in no
way a difficult thing for them to do. Idiots...
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Don Young wrote:
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .

I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any of
you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen having
trouble?




I have seen "bendable" as opposed to "flexible" exhaust tubing. It was solid
but corrugated. I think JC Whitney used to carry it. In smaller sizes, you
could use the corrugated pipes intended for gas appliance or water heater
connections.

Be sure your exhaust shop is capable and willing to fabricate from your
model. I had no luck getting a small block Mopar Y-pipe duplicated at my
local shops. They were willing to build and fit it on the motor only.

Don Young



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Super glue the joints-little dab'l do ya.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:

" Were you asking to get the whole thing done, or just the pipes bent?

I doubt that I'd want to build a header in the air to go onto an engine
later -- but I could see bending a bunch of pipes (if I hand a bender) for
someone to weld up themselves.


Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


Tim: I just need the modelling done for each of 4 pipes. I've found a shop
that says they can bend SS tube to match my model.
I've got a certain amount of flexibility in the mounting of the collector
and very little framing to dodge. The problem has just been that I started
with 4 equal length pipes and was trying to determine the bend angles that
I needed to start from 4 cylinders in an opposed engine and end up in the
collector. I could get one pipe and even two pipes arranged and then the
other two pipes would not come close to the collector. It seemed that the
bend angles of all 4 pipes had to be determined simultaneously to meet the
boundary conditions. The flex conduit did that but how to hold the bends in
place long enough to get the pipes bent.
Stu



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

JR North wrote:
Your experience is in no way unique. I have had countless projects where
I needed something done-the places capable of doing it treat you like
you're crazy if the project goes .001" outside their normal routine.
Example: I needed some 4"X8" copper faced circuit boards screen printed
with my traces. Had all the necessary prints for scanning ready to go. 3
shops looked at me like I just dropped in from Venus. This was in no
way a difficult thing for them to do. Idiots...

PC board shops are all digital, now. Practically none of them have an
enlarging camera, darkroom, etc. like they did in the OLD days of the
1960s, when artwork came in on mylar sheets with black crepe tape and
little pre-cut donut pads. If you can't send them a set of Gerber
files, they just don't know what to do with it. The screen printed
overlay is all generated digitally, the same way. They literally don't
have a procedure or the equipment for going from physical artwork to the
silk screen, anymore.

Jon

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" fired this volley in
:
.wescottdesign.com

Tim: I just need the modelling done for each of 4 pipes. I've found
a shop that says they can bend SS tube to match my model.


That's good, because flex pipe doesn't resonate well. You need a good
model, and rigid pipe (go with the bender guys).

(Ahhh... the SWEET sound of an un-muffled O-540 with tuned pipes!)
(oh... sorry... that's an o-320... a little guy)
I did some work on an Aero Commander 500C a couple decades ago, with a pair
of IGSO 540s. The only muffling was a perforated "basket" around the
straight pipe coming out the top of the engine. I wouldn't call it a
"sweet" sound, either. Awesome, yes! Still no comparison to the sound
of a Merlin idling, though.

Jon

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Don Young wrote:
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I'm just having more fun than should be legal and it probably isn't if I
look far enough into the County, State and Federal statues, but I am
never-the-less. I have pretty much followed the Cafe numbers for header
length and the 4-into-one collector. Keeping in mind friendship to my
neighbors, I also included a muffler. I purchased the collector and
muffler from Barnes Stainless and will be purchasing the header tubing,
321SS from the same source in all likelyhood. A/C Spruce has the tubing
listed at $8.75/ft.
I've made up some PVC headers complete with flanges glued on and am
heating the PVC with a heat gun and bending them until I get the pipes
where I want them. The plan then is to take the bent up PVC to a
muffler
shop that has a mandrel tube bender and have them bend up the expensive
321 SS tubing. I plan on welding in some of the 3-bolt ball fittings
to
both ease the stresses and make installation and removal easier.
My plan is to install the stock exhaust, do a hover and check the MP and
then quickly change exhaust systems and repeat. I'm hoping to see a MP
improvement.
I've had this plan in my "Round Toit" list every since I read the Cafe
study.

Dang I sure do like the experimental category. No bureacrats in the
way.
Stu
Well the heating of the PVC wasn't working as well as I hoped so I
changed
to using PVC elbows. I modified some 45° elbows by cutting out a wedge
fron the outside of the elbow and reduced the angle to 30°. I had to
drill a couple of holes and use some safety wire to hold the elbow to
the
30°. I also turned the PVC pipe ends in the lathe to make them turn a
bit
easier in the elbows. Needless to say it is a projet in progress.

Stu
Well PVC elbows weren't working to well either. Couldn't get equal
length
pipes to end up in an equal place. Next tried 3/4" steel flex conduit.
OK
it proves that you can get 4 equal length pipes to end up at the mouth
of
the 4-into-1 collector. It does prove that the required bends are not
simple. However the steel flex conduit is heavy and tries to sag. Next
tried some 1- 1/4 flex aluminum conduit. It isn't heavy but it too
sags
all over the place. One thought was to get the conduit in place with
support and then put a bunch of tack welds to make it solid. Yep the
conduit is weldable but it will take welds on both sides to make it
rigid.
Next trick being tried is using an expoxy to coat and stiffen the flex
conduit. Also trying some permanent thread locker and some 5 minute
epoxy.
Sure would be nice to have some medium that was flexible but kinda stiff
that could be treated with some easy to apply medium when the proper
angles
were achieved to derive a stiff pipe that could be copied in SS. Any
of you wizards out there have any ideas that might help a sr.citizen
having trouble?



I have seen "bendable" as opposed to "flexible" exhaust tubing. It was
solid but corrugated. I think JC Whitney used to carry it. In smaller
sizes, you could use the corrugated pipes intended for gas appliance or
water heater connections.

Be sure your exhaust shop is capable and willing to fabricate from your
model. I had no luck getting a small block Mopar Y-pipe duplicated at my
local shops. They were willing to build and fit it on the motor only.

Don Young
Were you asking to get the whole thing done, or just the pipes bent?

I doubt that I'd want to build a header in the air to go onto an engine
later -- but I could see bending a bunch of pipes (if I hand a bender) for
someone to weld up themselves.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
I was trying to get the entire pipe fabricated. I wound up getting some
bends and putting it together on the truck (1962 2 1/2T Dodge dump truck
with a 360).

Don Young

These were just generic silk screeners-not board shops. several years
ago. I called them, asked specifically about scanning my prints (OK),
asked specifically about screening onto 4X8 media (OK). When I showed
up with circuit traces, I might as well have been wearing a Ronald
Reagan mask.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

On Fri, 23 May 2008 15:45:44 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:



JR North wrote:
Your experience is in no way unique. I have had countless projects where
I needed something done-the places capable of doing it treat you like
you're crazy if the project goes .001" outside their normal routine.
Example: I needed some 4"X8" copper faced circuit boards screen printed
with my traces. Had all the necessary prints for scanning ready to go. 3
shops looked at me like I just dropped in from Venus. This was in no
way a difficult thing for them to do. Idiots...

PC board shops are all digital, now. Practically none of them have an
enlarging camera, darkroom, etc. like they did in the OLD days of the
1960s, when artwork came in on mylar sheets with black crepe tape and
little pre-cut donut pads. If you can't send them a set of Gerber
files, they just don't know what to do with it. The screen printed
overlay is all generated digitally, the same way. They literally don't
have a procedure or the equipment for going from physical artwork to the
silk screen, anymore.

Jon
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

JR North wrote:
These were just generic silk screeners-not board shops. several years
ago. I called them, asked specifically about scanning my prints (OK),
asked specifically about screening onto 4X8 media (OK). When I showed
up with circuit traces, I might as well have been wearing a Ronald
Reagan mask.
Well, my guess is it takes special inks, and maybe some special
gear to align the screen to the work. If they are used to
screening inch-high letters on Tee shirts, putting .050" high
lettering on a PC board WOULD look like something done in
another universe to them. PC boards use epoxy inks to stick to
the epoxy surface of the board. And, the screens are insanely
fine to properly image tiny letters. They probably had no
experience in doing fine-line stuff.

Jon