Chas Hurst wrote:

"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
news:HQYfj.900$hS.227@trnddc08...

Chas Hurst wrote:


"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...


What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.



The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker
does. More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will
need to connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the
anally correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

By removing the sheet metal cover over the breakers the main breaker can
be turned off then removed. To re-install the main, make sure it is
turned OFF then plug it in, replace the cover and then turn it back on.
This is a safe procedure that I have used before. Do NOT touch anything
inside the breaker box until the main is OUT.

Jim


In some, if not all, panels the main feed is connected to the main breaker.
Wot now?



In every panel I've ever gone into, the main breaker was a "plug-in"
type that could be easily removed for replacement. The top two sets of
contacts were connected to the line in and the bottom two were connected
to the buss bars. When the main breaker is removed from the box, there
is a gap between the contacts, meaning that no current could flow. That
is much the same as pulling the meter. One side stays hot while the
other is dead.

Jim

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 08:04:38 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly

Not to the widow.


Gunner


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
. ..
Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is really not enough,
and that right there kills the deal. This place is a rental and I'm just not
going to sink the expense of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to him why.

The danger of backfeeding has been covered my many other posters, but there
is another danger: To feed through that dryer outlet as you propose, you need a
build a special cord with a male plug at each end. That leaves you with the
chance of having exposed energized terminals unless you do everything just
right. For good reason, they call those dual-male cords "Suicide Cables".

Vaughn

"Vaughn Simon" wrote: (clip) For good reason, they call those dual-male
cords "Suicide Cables".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are plug and socket combinations where the male part is surrounded by
a metal guard, so it is less likely that you will get "suicided." You could
wire one of these in beside your dryer outlet. I used a combination like
that before I got a proper switching setup. I cut the wires between the
meter and the house (in the garage rafters) and put in a shielded twistlock
pair. I then made a cord from my generator that could reach my garage
rafters that had a matching connector. This made it impossible to get power
from my generator into the utility lines, and also kept me from getting my
fingers "burned."

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:59:39 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"NewsGroups" spar@plaus quickly quoth:


"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
news:HQYfj.900$hS.227@trnddc08...
By removing the sheet metal cover over the breakers the main breaker can
be turned off then removed.

You have a very unique main breaker if you can remove it without
actually disconnecting any wires from the breaker itself.

Mine is a dual fuse-type plugin. It pulls out to do a complete
disconnect from the service.

--
"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos shoed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:05:49 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 08:04:38 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly

Not to the widow.

And not to her lawyer.
--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, "ATP*" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed.

Except with "some" 3ph meters

some large single phase services as well, since they use a current
transformer rather than running full amperage through the meter.

Yes, but I thought we were talking residential service here, and a
Current Transformer meter setup on a modern single-family house would
be extremely rare - those are found primarily in "standing section"
panels from 400A up to 1600A.

Yes, they are rare, and certainly won't be found on any house I'm living in!
The electrician I used to work for installed a few of them on residential
jobs.

Okay, I've read this entire thread. The previous owner of my house used to
put his portable generator in the greenhouse, mainly to cut noise. Note
that the greenhouse is approx. 100 feet from the main panel which is inside
the house. Greenhouse had sub-panel with a sixty amp breaker. Said 60 amp
line was fed from another subpanel in the pantry of the house by another 60
amp breaker. Said panry sub-panel was fed by the main panel of the house
through another 60 amp breaker.

Procedu He would shut off his 200 amp main breaker, and then shut off
all 3 60 amp breakers. Fire up his generator and back feed through a
"suicide cord" in the green house. At this point he would flip back the
three 60 amp breakers one at a time mainly to feed water pump and
refrigerator etc.

Question: This all sounds pretty complicated and I want no part of it.
However, I would like to buy a 5K± generator and use the proper transfer
switch. Is there any way of using a transfer switch and NOT locate the
generator at the main panel. Due to many remodels our main panel is 10 feet
from the nearest outside wall, and, if the generator were to be placed as
close as possible, that would put it in a 2 foot wide sideyard. Any way to
do a transfer switch with the generator NOT located close to the panel?

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 08:04:38 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly

Not to the widow.

Is there a difference between accidentally and knowingly killing someone
with a car?

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:14:54 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, nick
hull quickly quoth:

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 08:04:38 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly

Not to the widow.

Is there a difference between accidentally and knowingly killing someone
with a car?

Not to the victim, but to the driver, it's a legal difference of
manslaughter or murder in the first degree. Many drug crimes
(including simple posession) can have much longer sentences than
murder. Go figure.

--
"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:33:06 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Okay, I've read this entire thread. The previous owner of my house used to
put his portable generator in the greenhouse, mainly to cut noise. Note
that the greenhouse is approx. 100 feet from the main panel which is inside
the house. Greenhouse had sub-panel with a sixty amp breaker. Said 60 amp
line was fed from another subpanel in the pantry of the house by another 60
amp breaker. Said panry sub-panel was fed by the main panel of the house
through another 60 amp breaker.

Procedu He would shut off his 200 amp main breaker, and then shut off
all 3 60 amp breakers. Fire up his generator and back feed through a
"suicide cord" in the green house. At this point he would flip back the
three 60 amp breakers one at a time mainly to feed water pump and
refrigerator etc.

Question: This all sounds pretty complicated and I want no part of it.
However, I would like to buy a 5K± generator and use the proper transfer
switch. Is there any way of using a transfer switch and NOT locate the
generator at the main panel. Due to many remodels our main panel is 10 feet
from the nearest outside wall, and, if the generator were to be placed as
close as possible, that would put it in a 2 foot wide sideyard. Any way to
do a transfer switch with the generator NOT located close to the panel?

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:33:06 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Okay, I've read this entire thread. The previous owner of my house used
to
put his portable generator in the greenhouse, mainly to cut noise. Note
that the greenhouse is approx. 100 feet from the main panel which is
inside
the house. Greenhouse had sub-panel with a sixty amp breaker. Said 60
amp
line was fed from another subpanel in the pantry of the house by another
60
amp breaker. Said panry sub-panel was fed by the main panel of the house
through another 60 amp breaker.

Procedu He would shut off his 200 amp main breaker, and then shut off
all 3 60 amp breakers. Fire up his generator and back feed through a
"suicide cord" in the green house. At this point he would flip back the
three 60 amp breakers one at a time mainly to feed water pump and
refrigerator etc.

Question: This all sounds pretty complicated and I want no part of it.
However, I would like to buy a 5K± generator and use the proper transfer
switch. Is there any way of using a transfer switch and NOT locate the
generator at the main panel. Due to many remodels our main panel is 10
feet
from the nearest outside wall, and, if the generator were to be placed as
close as possible, that would put it in a 2 foot wide sideyard. Any way
to
do a transfer switch with the generator NOT located close to the panel?

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer switch?

"Chas Hurst" fired this volley in
:

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer
switch?

My choice was to put the genny in the pumphouse, since during a power-
failure, my pumps have the highest inrush of all systems (that will still
be on line when I switch over).

I wired the 75' run from the pump house with #4 copper. The pump sub-
breaker is 50A, feeding a 20A sub-panel at the pumphouse. I accomplish
the changeover with carefully-labeled breakers in my main panel, and with
the use of a check-list. The list declares which breakers should be left
on, which should be turned off to reduce the load, and which ones should
be switched in what sequence in order to effect the transfer. (in case
the spouse has to do it in my absence).

FWIW, I would not have taken this tack if I'd had access to the meter-to-
panel stub, but this house was already built, and it would be difficult
(and require a disconnect-reconnect permit) to do it right with a
transfer switch.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Chas Hurst" fired this volley in
:

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer
switch?

My choice was to put the genny in the pumphouse, since during a power-
failure, my pumps have the highest inrush of all systems (that will still
be on line when I switch over).

I wired the 75' run from the pump house with #4 copper. The pump sub-
breaker is 50A, feeding a 20A sub-panel at the pumphouse. I accomplish
the changeover with carefully-labeled breakers in my main panel, and with
the use of a check-list. The list declares which breakers should be left
on, which should be turned off to reduce the load, and which ones should
be switched in what sequence in order to effect the transfer. (in case
the spouse has to do it in my absence).

FWIW, I would not have taken this tack if I'd had access to the meter-to-
panel stub, but this house was already built, and it would be difficult
(and require a disconnect-reconnect permit) to do it right with a
transfer switch.

LLoyd

I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves in
the morning might find this all too much, but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Jon Anderson wrote:
Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness here. Feeling
good about it too, I know the state got whacked, Nevada County has over
240 separate power outage issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down time. I was
talking a customer earlier today that also works from his garage. He has
a smaller generator, and he turns off the house master breaker, plugs
the generator into the dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

This is AC, the current reverses 120 (or 100) times a second.
The breaker doesn't know which way the power flows, it only
knows current.
I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50 amps @220v, and
run it in through through an appropriate outlet into my panel, so I
could run shop lights and fridge.
The problem is this is illegal, unless you have an interlock or
transfer switch that prevents your powering the grid and
electrocuting a power co. employee. If such were to happen,
depending on the state you live in, you could be charged with
2nd degree murder in some places!

Jon

Chas Hurst wrote:

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.



Yes, but tragedies still happen. And, I have my own, personal,
transformer, on my own, personal, pole. (Not really, but that
pole and xformer serves only my house, just due to the distance
between poles and the next house.) We had a lineman with 30+
years experience killed 2 summers ago when he stepped on a pile
of branches and leaves in a backyard. There was a live 7000
volt wire buried down in that mess! So, stuff happens, when you
don't even realize there's a wire anywhere near you.

Jon

On 2008-01-07, Jon Elson wrote:
Yes, but tragedies still happen. And, I have my own, personal,
transformer, on my own, personal, pole. (Not really, but that
pole and xformer serves only my house, just due to the distance
between poles and the next house.) We had a lineman with 30+
years experience killed 2 summers ago when he stepped on a pile
of branches and leaves in a backyard. There was a live 7000
volt wire buried down in that mess! So, stuff happens, when you
don't even realize there's a wire anywhere near you.

Jon, I am curious about that tragic event, how could that happen?

i

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Chas Hurst wrote:

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.

Yes, but tragedies still happen. And, I have my own, personal,
transformer, on my own, personal, pole. (Not really, but that pole and
xformer serves only my house, just due to the distance between poles and
the next house.) We had a lineman with 30+ years experience killed 2
summers ago when he stepped on a pile of branches and leaves in a
backyard. There was a live 7000 volt wire buried down in that mess! So,
stuff happens, when you don't even realize there's a wire anywhere near
you.

Jon

And death was caused by an incorrectly connected generator?

Chas Hurst wrote:
Sorry , building code is not law. People die from many household accidents,
chiefly ladders.
Please give us a site and cite for your claims.





I have no idea of the accuracy of these web sites, but :

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-...?msg_id=001QV4

I didn't find much else with a few minutes of google searching.

Jon

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point in
my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.
My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations of
present code.
Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to lengthen
them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:59:44 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:33:06 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Okay, I've read this entire thread. The previous owner of my house used
to
put his portable generator in the greenhouse, mainly to cut noise. Note
that the greenhouse is approx. 100 feet from the main panel which is
inside
the house. Greenhouse had sub-panel with a sixty amp breaker. Said 60
amp
line was fed from another subpanel in the pantry of the house by another
60
amp breaker. Said panry sub-panel was fed by the main panel of the house
through another 60 amp breaker.

Procedu He would shut off his 200 amp main breaker, and then shut off
all 3 60 amp breakers. Fire up his generator and back feed through a
"suicide cord" in the green house. At this point he would flip back the
three 60 amp breakers one at a time mainly to feed water pump and
refrigerator etc.

Question: This all sounds pretty complicated and I want no part of it.
However, I would like to buy a 5K± generator and use the proper transfer
switch. Is there any way of using a transfer switch and NOT locate the
generator at the main panel. Due to many remodels our main panel is 10
feet
from the nearest outside wall, and, if the generator were to be placed as
close as possible, that would put it in a 2 foot wide sideyard. Any way
to
do a transfer switch with the generator NOT located close to the panel?

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer switch?

One doesn't. One locates the transfer switch where the existing wire
already is, at the panel as said above.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:59:44 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:33:06 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Okay, I've read this entire thread. The previous owner of my house used
to
put his portable generator in the greenhouse, mainly to cut noise. Note
that the greenhouse is approx. 100 feet from the main panel which is
inside
the house. Greenhouse had sub-panel with a sixty amp breaker. Said 60
amp
line was fed from another subpanel in the pantry of the house by another
60
amp breaker. Said panry sub-panel was fed by the main panel of the
house
through another 60 amp breaker.

Procedu He would shut off his 200 amp main breaker, and then shut
off
all 3 60 amp breakers. Fire up his generator and back feed through a
"suicide cord" in the green house. At this point he would flip back the
three 60 amp breakers one at a time mainly to feed water pump and
refrigerator etc.

Question: This all sounds pretty complicated and I want no part of it.
However, I would like to buy a 5K± generator and use the proper transfer
switch. Is there any way of using a transfer switch and NOT locate the
generator at the main panel. Due to many remodels our main panel is 10
feet
from the nearest outside wall, and, if the generator were to be placed
as
close as possible, that would put it in a 2 foot wide sideyard. Any way
to
do a transfer switch with the generator NOT located close to the panel?

Thanks,

Ivan Vegvary

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer switch?

One doesn't. One locates the transfer switch where the existing wire
already is, at the panel as said above.

And what becomes of the existing breaker panel? Does it hang by the wires
connected to it.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Chas Hurst" fired this volley in
:

Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer
switch?

My choice was to put the genny in the pumphouse, since during a power-
failure, my pumps have the highest inrush of all systems (that will still
be on line when I switch over).

I wired the 75' run from the pump house with #4 copper. The pump sub-
breaker is 50A, feeding a 20A sub-panel at the pumphouse. I accomplish
the changeover with carefully-labeled breakers in my main panel, and with
the use of a check-list. The list declares which breakers should be left
on, which should be turned off to reduce the load, and which ones should
be switched in what sequence in order to effect the transfer. (in case
the spouse has to do it in my absence).

FWIW, I would not have taken this tack if I'd had access to the meter-to-
panel stub, but this house was already built, and it would be difficult
(and require a disconnect-reconnect permit) to do it right with a
transfer switch.


So you choose to play GOD and fool with the lives of any linesmen working
near your house. You are a truly selfish person.




LLoyd

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

He obviously does not give a **** about the lives of linesmen working
near his house. He chooses to play GOD with their lives. He is truly a
very selfish person.




but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I
close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point
in my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.
My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations of
present code.


Most likely no violations that could cause the death of a person
if you forgot to turn a breaker off. By your own rationalization you don't
give a damn about the lives of linesmen working near your property.
I pity you . You must lead a troubled life.



Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to
lengthen them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:05:57 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point in
my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.

Explaining why it make sense to ignore code when you're so very
competent sure sounds like rationalization to me.

rationalize
v 1: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by
reasoning; "rationalize the child's seemingly crazy
behavior"

My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations of
present code.

Connecting your generator is a new violation every time you do it. The
non-compliant conditions in your house are most likely grandfathered,
and not violations.

Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to lengthen
them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

There's a big difference between your earlier "there's really no way
to connect a transfer switch," and "To me that constitutes a "no way"
situation." The latter sure sounds like an excuse - rationalization,
if you don't mind my saying so - for not following code.

--
Ned Simmons

On Jan 7, 9:58*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:05:57 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:







"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50 amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point in
my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.

Explaining why it make sense to ignore code when you're so very
competent sure sounds like rationalization to me.

rationalize
* * *v 1: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by
* * * * * reasoning; "rationalize the child's seemingly crazy
* * * * * behavior"

My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations of
present code.

Connecting your generator is a new violation every time you do it. The
non-compliant conditions in your house are most likely grandfathered,
and not violations.

Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to lengthen
them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

There's a big difference between your earlier "there's really no way
to connect a transfer switch," and "To me that constitutes a "no way"
situation." The latter sure sounds like an excuse - rationalization,
if you don't mind my saying so - for not following code.

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is also an excuse that no jury will buy as it proceeds to commit
you to prison when someone dies.

I can assure you that if I am on the jury you will be imprisoned for
stupidity.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 9:58 pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:05:57 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:







"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main
breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50
amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start
the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I
close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing
themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point
in
my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.

Explaining why it make sense to ignore code when you're so very
competent sure sounds like rationalization to me.

rationalize
v 1: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by
reasoning; "rationalize the child's seemingly crazy
behavior"

My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations
of
present code.

Connecting your generator is a new violation every time you do it. The
non-compliant conditions in your house are most likely grandfathered,
and not violations.

Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to
lengthen
them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

There's a big difference between your earlier "there's really no way
to connect a transfer switch," and "To me that constitutes a "no way"
situation." The latter sure sounds like an excuse - rationalization,
if you don't mind my saying so - for not following code.

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is also an excuse that no jury will buy as it proceeds to commit
you to prison when someone dies.

I can assure you that if I am on the jury you will be imprisoned for
stupidity.

TMT

Please keep posting replies. They're much more entertaining than those from
Ned.
I guess I'm just blessed that paranoid busybodies make me larff.

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:06:30 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:


Sure. The transfer switch must be at the panel, but the genny could
be anywhere. You just need to run suitable wire from the transfer
switch to the genny. 5KW gennies typically have 20-amp breakers so
12-gage wire should suffice.

And how does one get the existing wire stretched to the transfer switch?

One doesn't. One locates the transfer switch where the existing wire
already is, at the panel as said above.

And what becomes of the existing breaker panel? Does it hang by the wires
connected to it.

Conservative-to-a-fault codes exist because there are those who would
have such a question. It's not easy for engineers to anticipate what
fools might do, but they do the best they can.

It is very unlikely that you will zap a lineman with your folly, even
if you are unable to devise a way to use a transfer switch in your
situation without having a panel hanging by the wires. That does
speak to your level of competence, but it doesn't really matter.

Linemen are professionals. Taking measures to protect themselves
against bunglers delays restoration of service to all, but they must
take such measures to protect themselves from incompetent scofflaws.
You're not unique nor clever, just part of the burden. Even if you
get your **** together, others won't so bungle on, not to worry.

Bon chance!

On Jan 7, 11:41*pm, "Chas Hurst" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On Jan 7, 9:58 pm, Ned Simmons wrote:





On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:05:57 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:41:00 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

I do the same thing as you and afew others. My generator is out in the
shop,
100' away. When the power goes out, I open both the 200 amp main
breaker
and
the 100 amp breaker feeding the shop. Out in the shop. I open the 50
amp
breaker for the welder and plug in the "suicide cable". Then I start
the
generator, close the 50 amp breaker and go back to the house where I
close
the 100 amp breaker. I think someone that has trouble dressing
themselves
in
the morning might find this all too much,

So to be clear, your earlier posts are simply rationalization for your
decision to run your generator in violation of code.

but there's really no way connect
a transfer switch.

Of course there is, it may not be convenient or cheap, but it can be
done.

--
Ned Simmons

I'm flattered you even read my posts, but you are mistaken. At this point
in
my life, what I have done has served me well and I find no need to
rationalize my actions.

Explaining why it make sense to ignore code when you're so very
competent sure sounds like rationalization to me.

rationalize
v 1: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by
reasoning; "rationalize the child's seemingly crazy
behavior"

My house is over 35 years and, as code has evolved, has many violations
of
present code.

Connecting your generator is a new violation every time you do it. The
non-compliant conditions in your house are most likely grandfathered,
and not violations.

Since wires that need to be connected to a transfer switch are too short,
most of the interior walls of the house would need to be removed to
lengthen
them. To me that constitutes a "no way" situation.

There's a big difference between your earlier "there's really no way
to connect a transfer switch," and "To me that constitutes a "no way"
situation." The latter sure sounds like an excuse - rationalization,
if you don't mind my saying so - for not following code.

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is also an excuse that no jury will buy as it proceeds to commit
you to prison when someone dies.

I can assure you that if I am on the jury you will be imprisoned for
stupidity.

TMT

Please keep posting replies. They're much more entertaining than those from
Ned.
I guess I'm just blessed that paranoid busybodies make me larff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As I said, juries I have been on relish sending people to jail for
stupidity.

TMT

On Jan 9, 1:16 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:


It is also an excuse that no jury will buy as it proceeds to commit
you to prison when someone dies.

I can assure you that if I am on the jury you will be imprisoned for
stupidity.

TMT

Please keep posting replies. They're much more entertaining than those from
Ned.
I guess I'm just blessed that paranoid busybodies make me larff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As I said, juries I have been on relish sending people to jail for
stupidity.

TMT

There is no cure for stupidity. The stupid person will not use a
transfer switch or know how to safely lockout a panel so power is not
back feed to the transmission line. Sending them to jail does not
make them smarter nor does it compensate the family of the victim. It
just cost the taxpayer more money. Fortunately linemen are not so
stupid as to assume a line is dead.

Dan

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:06:30 -0500 in rec.crafts.metalworking, "Chas
Hurst" wrote,
And what becomes of the existing breaker panel? Does it hang by the wires
connected to it.

Hire a professional electrician. You are too dumb to do it
yourself.

"David Harmon" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:06:30 -0500 in rec.crafts.metalworking, "Chas
Hurst" wrote,
And what becomes of the existing breaker panel? Does it hang by the wires
connected to it.

Hire a professional electrician. You are too dumb to do it
yourself.

Don't need to. I'm endangering the country by flaunting the code.