Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:14:54 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 08:04:38 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly ;)

Not to the widow.

Is there a difference between accidentally and knowingly killing someone
with a car?

Not to the next of kin.

Gunner


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning downthe house
 

Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness
here. Feeling good about it too, I know the state got
whacked, Nevada County has over 240 separate power outage
issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down
time. I was talking a customer earlier today that also works
from his garage. He has a smaller generator, and he turns
off the house master breaker, plugs the generator into the
dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50
amps @220v, and run it in through through an appropriate
outlet into my panel, so I could run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew
rotary phase converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't
work fine on the generator's output, but I know squat about
electrical stuff. I do know a 50 amp circuit carries a lot
of smoke under great pressure, and I sure don't want to let
it all out!

Thanks,

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

On 5 Jan, 21:43, Jon Anderson wrote:
Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness
here. Feeling good about it too, I know the state got
whacked, Nevada County has over 240 separate power outage
issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down
time. I was talking a customer earlier today that also works
from his garage. He has a smaller generator, and he turns
off the house master breaker, plugs the generator into the
dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50
amps @220v, and run it in through through an appropriate
outlet into my panel, so I could run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew
rotary phase converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't
work fine on the generator's output, but I know squat about
electrical stuff. I do know a 50 amp circuit carries a lot
of smoke under great pressure, and I sure don't want to let
it all out!

Thanks,

Jon

You really need a two way mains switch.One way generator is
disconnected and mains are on,other way mains off and generator
on.Reason for this is so that it is impossible to electrocute the
linesman doing a repair on the mains if you forget to turn the main
switch off when running the gennie.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:43:13 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness
here. Feeling good about it too, I know the state got
whacked, Nevada County has over 240 separate power outage
issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down
time. I was talking a customer earlier today that also works
from his garage. He has a smaller generator, and he turns
off the house master breaker, plugs the generator into the
dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50
amps @220v, and run it in through through an appropriate
outlet into my panel, so I could run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew
rotary phase converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't
work fine on the generator's output, but I know squat about
electrical stuff. I do know a 50 amp circuit carries a lot
of smoke under great pressure, and I sure don't want to let
it all out!

Thanks,

Jon

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness here. Feeling
good about it too, I know the state got whacked, Nevada County has over
240 separate power outage issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down time. I was
talking a customer earlier today that also works from his garage. He has a
smaller generator, and he turns off the house master breaker, plugs the
generator into the dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50 amps @220v, and
run it in through through an appropriate outlet into my panel, so I could
run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew rotary phase
converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't work fine on the
generator's output, but I know squat about electrical stuff. I do know a
50 amp circuit carries a lot of smoke under great pressure, and I sure
don't want to let it all out!

Thanks,

Jon

Hi Jon

Since you have very little knowledge of electrical stuff, it would be
foolish for you to do what your customer is doing.

Would you consider using your generator to feed a temporary set of
outleets into which you can plug the units you need while the power company
is off??

Try running the rotary converter from the generator. It may work. If
the rotary converter doesnt function properly when fed from your generator,
there are plenty of guys in RCM who can help you solve that "3 phase"
problem.

Jerry

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

You can do it, as many people do, but it is dangerous. Google for
"generator backfeeding" and such to find out.

50 amps at 220v requires an expensive generator. Especially if you
need to start up your phase converter's idler motor, etc.

i

On 2008-01-05, Jon Anderson wrote:
Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness
here. Feeling good about it too, I know the state got
whacked, Nevada County has over 240 separate power outage
issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down
time. I was talking a customer earlier today that also works
from his garage. He has a smaller generator, and he turns
off the house master breaker, plugs the generator into the
dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50
amps @220v, and run it in through through an appropriate
outlet into my panel, so I could run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew
rotary phase converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't
work fine on the generator's output, but I know squat about
electrical stuff. I do know a 50 amp circuit carries a lot
of smoke under great pressure, and I sure don't want to let
it all out!

Thanks,

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.

i

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...
What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.


The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker does.
More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will need to
connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the anally
correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On 2008-01-06, Chas Hurst wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...
What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.


The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker does.

Mine does.

More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will need to
connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the anally
correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

Which is exactly the point.

i

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...
On 2008-01-06, Chas Hurst wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...
What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.


The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker
does.

Mine does.

More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will need
to
connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the anally
correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

Which is exactly the point.

i

Which point?

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

On Jan 5, 6:22*pm, "Chas Hurst" wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message

...





On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. * If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. * Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong *aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Transfer boxes are required by law.

In the past, I am aware of several people killed because of improper
wired generators backfeeding power lines.

The owners of these generators all served prison time for manslaughter
and were sued by the families of those who were killed.

Only a fool doesn't use a transfer box.

TMT

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Ignoramus8343 wrote:

50 amps at 220v requires an expensive generator. Especially if you
need to start up your phase converter's idler motor, etc.

Yeah, I know it won't be cheap, but there's also a cost to
sitting around twiddling my thumbs for two days when I have
work to do. But as with many things here, the real killer is
the cost to do things right, when I'm in a rental.

My landlord btw, loves that I have a machine shop in the
garage, that's no problem. I'm just to cheap to give him
several thousand dollars worth of upgrades for free.

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Jerry wrote:

Would you consider using your generator to feed a temporary set of
outleets into which you can plug the units you need while the power company
is off??

Don't have a generator yet. It's just having a lot of work
here and not being able to do it that has me thinking of a
way to do it without investing in a lot of upgrades on a
rental.

But your idea has a lot of merit. Thinking about it, my
whole 3 phase setup runs off a 50 amp outlet I have near the
garage door, using a disconnect box with 30 amp fuses. That
could very easily just be plugged into an extension cord to
a generator. I did install a sub panel with extra outlets
where i needed them. At the main panel, I could just set
that up with a plug/receptacle and also plug that circuit
into a generator. Would give me a few lights, and 110v at
each machine. And everything would be isolated from the
house's wiring. Hmm, maybe time to start hunting for a
generator...

Thanks!

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Jan 5, 6:22 pm, "Chas Hurst" wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message

...





On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Transfer boxes are required by law.

In the past, I am aware of several people killed because of improper
wired generators backfeeding power lines.

The owners of these generators all served prison time for manslaughter
and were sued by the families of those who were killed.

Only a fool doesn't use a transfer box.

TMT

Sorry , building code is not law. People die from many household accidents,
chiefly ladders.
Please give us a site and cite for your claims.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

As someone else has mentioned, trying to run your generator while you are
still connected to the utility line would result in power being fed back to
the neighbors who are on the same transformer. You would also be coupled by
the transformer to the high voltage lines, trying to fire up the whole grid.
The breaker in your genset would trip.

But lets suppose that the power comes back on, your generator is still
running, and you absent mindedly reconnect to the lines before you
disconnect the generator. The chances are you would be out of phase with
the utility at that moment, and there would be a huge surge that would do
damage. The breaker is not meant to open with up to two times line voltage
across it.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
As someone else has mentioned, trying to run your generator while you are
still connected to the utility line would result in power being fed back
to the neighbors who are on the same transformer. You would also be
coupled by the transformer to the high voltage lines, trying to fire up
the whole grid. The breaker in your genset would trip.

But lets suppose that the power comes back on, your generator is still
running, and you absent mindedly reconnect to the lines before you
disconnect the generator. The chances are you would be out of phase with
the utility at that moment, and there would be a huge surge that would do
damage. The breaker is not meant to open with up to two times line
voltage across it.

Let us suppose further that you pull out of your driveway without looking
both ways and cause a fatal accident. What do we do now?

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:22:43 -0500, "Chas Hurst"
wrote:
Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.


In this jurisdiction the power company must be notified of any planned
generator installation and approve the means of isolating the standby
generator from the company's service. Maine is pretty laid-back when
it comes to codes, so I doubt this is unique.

--
Ned Simmons

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Chas Hurst" wrote: Let us suppose further that you pull out of your
driveway without looking
both ways and cause a fatal accident. What do we do now?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think I can answer that. Same thing we always do when we screw up and
kill somebody. We pay a lawyer to defend us in court.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:


You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon


It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.


Short of having a transfer box, you can REMOVE the main breaker entirely
and tap in downstream of that. By removing the main you eliminate any
chance that you will connect with the network and can power the house
safely.

Jim Chandler

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Chas Hurst wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...

What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.



The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker does.
More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will need to
connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the anally
correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.



By removing the sheet metal cover over the breakers the main breaker can
be turned off then removed. To re-install the main, make sure it is
turned OFF then plug it in, replace the cover and then turn it back on.
This is a safe procedure that I have used before. Do NOT touch anything
inside the breaker box until the main is OUT.

Jim

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
news:HQYfj.900$hS.227@trnddc08...
Chas Hurst wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...

What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.



The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker
does. More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will
need to connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the
anally correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

By removing the sheet metal cover over the breakers the main breaker can
be turned off then removed. To re-install the main, make sure it is
turned OFF then plug it in, replace the cover and then turn it back on.
This is a safe procedure that I have used before. Do NOT touch anything
inside the breaker box until the main is OUT.

Jim

In some, if not all, panels the main feed is connected to the main breaker.
Wot now?

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

You are looking for 50 amps at 240 volts or around 12 kw. That is well
above the normal single cylinder genset. It takes an honest 16 hp to
drive that, much more if you want any surge capacity.

A quick rule of thumb is that a genset will run $100 to $200 per
killowatt, the lower number is for a noisy light duty unit, more dollars
for a quieter, longer lasting unit. I see used 15 to 25 kw 3 phase
gensets for reasonable dollars. Quick sample:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=45381
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...Itemnumber=192

Or used/takeout models of the residential/commercial standby models
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94406

Jon Anderson wrote:
Jerry wrote:

Would you consider using your generator to feed a temporary set of
outleets into which you can plug the units you need while the power
company is off??

Don't have a generator yet. It's just having a lot of work here and not
being able to do it that has me thinking of a way to do it without
investing in a lot of upgrades on a rental.

But your idea has a lot of merit. Thinking about it, my whole 3 phase
setup runs off a 50 amp outlet I have near the garage door, using a
disconnect box with 30 amp fuses. That could very easily just be plugged
into an extension cord to a generator. I did install a sub panel with
extra outlets where i needed them. At the main panel, I could just set
that up with a plug/receptacle and also plug that circuit into a
generator. Would give me a few lights, and 110v at each machine. And
everything would be isolated from the house's wiring. Hmm, maybe time to
start hunting for a generator...

Thanks!

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

RoyJ wrote:

You are looking for 50 amps at 240 volts or around 12 kw. That is well
above the normal single cylinder genset. It takes an honest 16 hp to
drive that, much more if you want any surge capacity.

A quick rule of thumb is that a genset will run $100 to $200 per
killowatt, the lower number is for a noisy light duty unit, more dollars
for a quieter, longer lasting unit. I see used 15 to 25 kw 3 phase
gensets for reasonable dollars.

I'd anticipated spending 2-3 grand for what I'd consider a
suitable generator. Not that I had particular specs in mind
yet, just in terms of quality. And heck, if I got a 3 phase
generator, that would eliminate worries over my rotary
converter!

Thanks for the links, that'll give me a baseline to start
researching.

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

They make transfer boxes that have an "interlocked main breakers"
manual transfer switch inside, with a chunk of flexible conduit and
pre-wired circuit breakers that can be added on easily in an hour or
two - and just as easily removed and taken with you when you move out.

The only thing you leave at the old house is a used knockout or two
in the main panel - that you properly plugged when you removed the
transfer switch, of course.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Oh, you betcha it can be dangerous... ("Here there be Dragons!")

That circuit breaker really doesn't care which direction the current
is flowing, it just makes sure it's not flowing too fast to protect
the wire. Matter of fact, many 100A and 200A panels use a "branch"
style breaker backfed as a Main from the factory - but they do usually
install an anchor screw so it can't be accidentally unplugged from the
distribution section main buss.

A trained and qualified electrician would do fine by turning off
/locking/ /out/ (with a physical lockout device or permanent hasp and
a padlock) and tagging-out the Main Breaker, then backfeeding a branch
style breaker to energize the panel. But that Electrician would have
to babysit the lash-up while in use, as this is NOT something you want
the average homeowner to do on their own. There are way too many ways
to goof it up...

Making a "Killer Cord" (a male plug at each end of the cord, one end
for the dryer receptacle and one for the generator receptacle) works
if you are careful, but it's patently unsafe even for the trained -
one "brain fart" in sequencing and you will get bit...

It's too darned easy to have an exposed and energized male plug
that'll make a BIG ZAP! when shorted/grounded out. And it's also way
too easy to backfeed utility power into the generator plant outputs,
and blow the voltage regulator and/or the windings.

Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed. (Well, anything
is possible if you really try.) But they normally lock the meter to
the base to prevent energy theft, and if you call for a low-priority
meter unlock in the middle of a storm you'll be waiting for days...

If there's no way to backfeed to the utility, then it's safe enough
to backfeed the house main panel to energize it. But you really
should install a separate "Emergency" breaker panel with mechanically
interlocked Main breakers and a power inlet plug for the generator.

-- Bruce --

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

They make transfer boxes that have an "interlocked main breakers"
manual transfer switch inside, with a chunk of flexible conduit and
pre-wired circuit breakers that can be added on easily in an hour or
two - and just as easily removed and taken with you when you move out.

The only thing you leave at the old house is a used knockout or two
in the main panel - that you properly plugged when you removed the
transfer switch, of course.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Oh, you betcha it can be dangerous... ("Here there be Dragons!")

That circuit breaker really doesn't care which direction the current
is flowing, it just makes sure it's not flowing too fast to protect
the wire. Matter of fact, many 100A and 200A panels use a "branch"
style breaker backfed as a Main from the factory - but they do usually
install an anchor screw so it can't be accidentally unplugged from the
distribution section main buss.

A trained and qualified electrician would do fine by turning off
/locking/ /out/ (with a physical lockout device or permanent hasp and
a padlock) and tagging-out the Main Breaker, then backfeeding a branch
style breaker to energize the panel. But that Electrician would have
to babysit the lash-up while in use, as this is NOT something you want
the average homeowner to do on their own. There are way too many ways
to goof it up...

Making a "Killer Cord" (a male plug at each end of the cord, one end
for the dryer receptacle and one for the generator receptacle) works
if you are careful, but it's patently unsafe even for the trained -
one "brain fart" in sequencing and you will get bit...

It's too darned easy to have an exposed and energized male plug
that'll make a BIG ZAP! when shorted/grounded out. And it's also way
too easy to backfeed utility power into the generator plant outputs,
and blow the voltage regulator and/or the windings.

Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed. (Well, anything
is possible if you really try.) But they normally lock the meter to
the base to prevent energy theft, and if you call for a low-priority
meter unlock in the middle of a storm you'll be waiting for days...

If there's no way to backfeed to the utility, then it's safe enough
to backfeed the house main panel to energize it. But you really
should install a separate "Emergency" breaker panel with mechanically
interlocked Main breakers and a power inlet plug for the generator.

-- Bruce --

There we go, thanks Bruce.
If one is dumb or stupid, don't use a generator without a transfer switch.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:43:13 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Just got my power back after a day and a half of darkness
here. Feeling good about it too, I know the state got
whacked, Nevada County has over 240 separate power outage
issues.

Anyway, I have lots of work, and didn't really need the down
time. I was talking a customer earlier today that also works
from his garage. He has a smaller generator, and he turns
off the house master breaker, plugs the generator into the
dryer outlet, and runs some lights and the fridge.

How safe is it to run current through a breaker backwards?

Its Russian Roulette for a lineman.

I'd like to find a generator that will put out around 50
amps @220v, and run it in through through an appropriate
outlet into my panel, so I could run shop lights and fridge.

But to work, I'd also need to be able to run my home brew
rotary phase converter. I can't see any reason it shouldn't
work fine on the generator's output, but I know squat about
electrical stuff. I do know a 50 amp circuit carries a lot
of smoke under great pressure, and I sure don't want to let
it all out!

Thanks,

Jon


Buy a Transfer Switch and install it correctly.

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD


And you dont even need to run the RPC, plus it will do the entire
house.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

These detroit diesels have a lot of user unfriendly aspects to them,
they are noisy and also not easy to start in cold weather, IIRC.

i

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

On Jan 5, 8:34*pm, "Chas Hurst" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On Jan 5, 6:22 pm, "Chas Hurst" wrote:





"Don Foreman" wrote in message

.. .

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You need a transfer switch. If you aren't completely sure about what
you're doing, please hire an electrician.

You may need a smaller pony motor and clutch (or slip belt) to spin up
your RPC before switching it online. Gennies don't handle starting
surges of larger motors nearly as well as the utility company does.

Ok, sounds like relying on turning off the mains breaker is
really not enough, and that right there kills the deal. This
place is a rental and I'm just not going to sink the expense
of a transfer box into this place.

Sounds like this practice is dangerous enough that I ought
to warn my friend?

I'm guessing yes, but would like to be able to explain to
him why.

Thanks much,

Jon

It must be impossible for the genny to connect to the utility's lines.
The power company has a strong aversion to having linemen getting
zapped by customer gen sets.

A transfer box ensures that to the satisfaction of the power company.

No lineman handles a wire as if it were dead. Further more, there are
usually 4 or 5 homes on one transformer circuit; connecting a home size
generator to the grid will likely pop the 20 amp circuit breakers as the
generator tries to power up those homes. Transfer boxes are required by
code, not the electric company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Transfer boxes are required by law.

In the past, I am aware of several people killed because of improper
wired generators backfeeding power lines.

The owners of these generators all served prison time for manslaughter
and were sued by the families of those who were killed.

Only a fool doesn't use a transfer box.

TMT

Sorry , building code is not law. People die from many household accidents,
chiefly ladders.
Please give us a site and cite *for your claims.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No need to...you can get your answers by asking a few simple
questions.

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

Then ask your favorite lawyer what the penalty is for manslaughter is
in your state.

Finally ask your insurance agent what the average jury award is for
wrongful death.

A transfer switch is cheap in comparsion.

TMT

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:47:32 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed.

Except with "some" 3ph meters

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:47:32 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed.

Except with "some" 3ph meters

Gunner

some large single phase services as well, since they use a current
transformer rather than running full amperage through the meter.

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Ask your local power company what will happen to you when one of their
linemen is killed by your knowingly backfeeding the power line.

There is a difference between accidentally and knowingly ;)

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

In article ,
"Chas Hurst" wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...
What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.


The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker does.
More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will need to
connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the anally
correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

Or you can simply LOCK the main breaker OFF.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burningdown the house
 

Once you step up from the portable generator class (about 10kw and
under) to the skid mounted ones (15kw and up), you should be able to get
3 phase output without too much extra fuss.

Jon Anderson wrote:
RoyJ wrote:

You are looking for 50 amps at 240 volts or around 12 kw. That is well
above the normal single cylinder genset. It takes an honest 16 hp to
drive that, much more if you want any surge capacity.

A quick rule of thumb is that a genset will run $100 to $200 per
killowatt, the lower number is for a noisy light duty unit, more
dollars for a quieter, longer lasting unit. I see used 15 to 25 kw 3
phase gensets for reasonable dollars.

I'd anticipated spending 2-3 grand for what I'd consider a suitable
generator. Not that I had particular specs in mind yet, just in terms of
quality. And heck, if I got a 3 phase generator, that would eliminate
worries over my rotary converter!

Thanks for the links, that'll give me a baseline to start researching.

Jon

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
news:HQYfj.900$hS.227@trnddc08...
Chas Hurst wrote:

"Ignoramus8343" wrote in message
...

What is not so good as a transfer switch, but marginally better than
flipping a switch on the mains breaker, is to take the mains breaker
out of the panel, and put it away somewhere.



The main breaker does not pull out of the panel as a circuit breaker
does. More importantly, when the power is restored that main breaker will
need to connected to live wires, unless the meter is pulled- which is the
anally correct thing to do instead of pulling the main breaker.

By removing the sheet metal cover over the breakers the main breaker can
be turned off then removed.

You have a very unique main breaker if you can remove it without
actually disconnecting any wires from the breaker itself.



To re-install the main, make sure it is
turned OFF then plug it in, replace the cover and then turn it back on.
This is a safe procedure that I have used before. Do NOT touch anything
inside the breaker box until the main is OUT.

Jim

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, "ATP*" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed.

Except with "some" 3ph meters

some large single phase services as well, since they use a current
transformer rather than running full amperage through the meter.

Yes, but I thought we were talking residential service here, and a
Current Transformer meter setup on a modern single-family house would
be extremely rare - those are found primarily in "standing section"
panels from 400A up to 1600A.

I have seen 'commercial' standing sections used in old big houses
from the 1920's - 1950's, because that was all you had to choose from
if you needed over 200A. Or they make a big (24" x 24" x 6") CT box
with the meter socket on front for "farm services", but the size and
form factor is a dead give away. Not to mention the gutter-tapped
multiple fused disconnects to the various house sub-panels.

Seeing the CT test switches under their glass cover is also a pretty
good clue that pulling the meter isn't enough.

They make 400A 4-jaw plug-in meters now for the "Calabasas 400"
residential style wall-mount "all-in-one" service panels. And 7-jaw
direct plug-in 3-Phase meters for 200A 208V or 240V that get used on
well and elevator services.

Remember to always turn off the Main before pulling or reinstalling
the meter, because the meter jaws are not rated to operate under load
and don't have arc chutes. Could start off a very nasty flash-over in
the meter socket, not to mention the skid marks in your shorts...

-- Bruce --

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:18:30 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:
Ignoramus8343 wrote:

50 amps at 220v requires an expensive generator. Especially if you
need to start up your phase converter's idler motor, etc.

Yeah, I know it won't be cheap, but there's also a cost to
sitting around twiddling my thumbs for two days when I have
work to do. But as with many things here, the real killer is
the cost to do things right, when I'm in a rental.

My landlord btw, loves that I have a machine shop in the
garage, that's no problem. I'm just to cheap to give him
several thousand dollars worth of upgrades for free.

Here's your shopping list, and portable for when you move:
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...obcat_3_phase/

If you don't have a pickup truck and a shop crane to load it
(without getting a hernia...), you'll need a trailer - see the
Hwy-1000 about halfway down:
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...ccessories.php

If you aren't in a rush, shop around for a used one.

-- Bruce --

Questions: Generators, rotary phase converters, and not burning down the house
 

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:47:42 -0800, Jon Anderson

Another way to make absolutely sure you can't make a backfeed is to
remove the meter lock ring and physically pull the power meter from
it's socket, then there is no way to make a backfeed. (Well, anything
is possible if you really try.) But they normally lock the meter to
the base to prevent energy theft, and if you call for a low-priority
meter unlock in the middle of a storm you'll be waiting for days...


Got to watch this one, as services get larger, some are starting to use CT
meters (like mine). Of course pulling the meter will not turn them off.

William...


-- Bruce --