Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Rob

On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:
Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Did you maybe use the little lever to lock the quill? On the bottom
right side of the head. Sometimes it locks up because you hit it with
an elbow without noticing etc

i

"Ignoramus705" wrote in message
...
On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:
Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling
to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see
no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Did you maybe use the little lever to lock the quill? On the bottom
right side of the head. Sometimes it locks up because you hit it with
an elbow without noticing etc

i

Checked it- Nothing there but two bolts on each side of the head for it to
rotate. Nothing apparent like a lock lever on both sides. I just ran out
there again to double check... The only thing that makes any change is the
clicking when depressing the fine feed adjustment on the facing left side.

Also- check you Email I sent you something on the AWS show last night.

Rob

On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:

"Ignoramus705" wrote in message
...
On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:
Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling
to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see
no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Did you maybe use the little lever to lock the quill? On the bottom
right side of the head. Sometimes it locks up because you hit it with
an elbow without noticing etc

i

Checked it- Nothing there but two bolts on each side of the head for it to
rotate.

Look lower than that.

Nothing apparent like a lock lever on both sides. I just ran out
there again to double check... The only thing that makes any change is the
clicking when depressing the fine feed adjustment on the facing left side.

Do you know where the lever is that would lock the vertical position
of the quill? Have you checked it?

Also- check you Email I sent you something on the AWS show last night.

Rob, somehow or other, I do not have it.

i

"Ignoramus705" wrote in message
...
On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:

"Ignoramus705" wrote in message
...
On 2007-10-23, RDF wrote:
Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where
the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling
to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter.
Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep
the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see
no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Did you maybe use the little lever to lock the quill? On the bottom
right side of the head. Sometimes it locks up because you hit it with
an elbow without noticing etc

i

Checked it- Nothing there but two bolts on each side of the head for it
to
rotate.

Look lower than that.

Nothing apparent like a lock lever on both sides. I just ran out
there again to double check... The only thing that makes any change is
the
clicking when depressing the fine feed adjustment on the facing left
side.

Do you know where the lever is that would lock the vertical position
of the quill? Have you checked it?

Also- check you Email I sent you something on the AWS show last
night.

Rob, somehow or other, I do not have it.

i


That I don't know sir. I must be missing it and it's probably right in front
of me and I can't find it in the manual. Other than the four long bolts, I
don't see anything that would have tension locks on it. There is a blind pin
all the way at the bottom of the quill's base but no adjustment or SHCS or
Allen opening on it. I'll resend the E-mail to your Algebra account right
now.

Thanks again!

Rob

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:24 -0500, "RDF"
wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move.

If the setscrew that locks the bearing cap on the nose of the quill is
too tight it distorts the quill. If your quill is tight for the first
inch of stroke this is likely the problem - if it's tight thru its
entire travel, it's something else.

--
Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:24 -0500, "RDF"
wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move.

If the setscrew that locks the bearing cap on the nose of the quill is
too tight it distorts the quill. If your quill is tight for the first
inch of stroke this is likely the problem - if it's tight thru its
entire travel, it's something else.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned,

It's pretty snug throughout the entire length of travel but indeed, I do
feel more friction at the beginning of the feed. I'll take a crack the
setscrew. How tight would you recommend I set it?

Thanks!

Rob

"RDF" wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.


Loosen the four face bolts that allow head to rotate sideways and see if it
gets easier.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"RDF" wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.


Loosen the four face bolts that allow head to rotate sideways and see if
it
gets easier.

Wes

I'm on it I'll give it a shot and drop a note. Thanks Wes.

Rob

"Rob Fraser" FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote:

It's pretty snug throughout the entire length of travel but indeed, I do
feel more friction at the beginning of the feed. I'll take a crack the
setscrew. How tight would you recommend I set it?


Did you get crazy with the 4 nuts that clamp the face down to ram adaptor?

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Rob Fraser" FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote:

It's pretty snug throughout the entire length of travel but indeed, I
do
feel more friction at the beginning of the feed. I'll take a crack the
setscrew. How tight would you recommend I set it?


Did you get crazy with the 4 nuts that clamp the face down to ram adaptor?

Wes

Nope, Gentle as a baby. 15 ft. lbs when I set it up.

"Rob Fraser" FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote:

I'm on it I'll give it a shot and drop a note. Thanks Wes.

Rob

Sorry about the double post, I was replying to a few different threads and
lost track.

Wes

"Rob Fraser" FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote in message
. ..

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"RDF" wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling
to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see
no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.


Loosen the four face bolts that allow head to rotate sideways and see if
it
gets easier.

Wes

I'm on it I'll give it a shot and drop a note. Thanks Wes.

Rob

Wes,

Tried the face bolts, I originally set them to 15.0 ft. lbs and I
loosened them, even threw on some never-seize just now and retourqed them
from 7 lbs up to 15. it made no difference at all. I don't know if pulling
the feed arm apart is a good idea at all. (I have very limited knowledge of
the internals and know when I'm over my head). There is no scoring on the
ram to indicate there is something physically in the way. Now I don't need
to really pull down hard to move the ram but my friend who owns a custom
chopper shop used mine and made the comment as his was down for a move and I
tried his and it was night and day. Same model and all. His was really easy
mine took considerably more pressure downwards and I just lift the table in
critical movements as I don't have a DRO anyhow. I use the dial indicator
for elevation. That wheel is super-easy to move just to give you an idea
of what's going on.... The worse part is I just got a new house with a six
car garage and I have to move the ******* again!

Thanks,

Rob

Rob Fraser wrote:

I was afraid of that. There was a lot of grease build up in there. Is this
a big deal to do? Would scoring be evident on the ram? I shot it full of
brake-clean a while ago to clean it up and some real funky stuff came out of
the bottom including metal after working it up and down. I thought I got it
all but it seems not. Is there a manual besides the stock setup manual that
would assist in this project you know of? Also- just got the airline
tickets for December. Can't wait to meet face to face!!
This is defintely your problem, then. The quill is an extremely close fit
in the main housing. I don't think there is a manual that tells about
things like this. My system to clear the bore is to extend the quill as
far as it goes, and wipe axle grease onto it, then retract and work up
and down a few times, then extend fully and wipe with a fresh paper
towel. Then, examine the towel under a bright light, looking for tiny
reflective bits. Repeat until there is nothing more coming off the
quill. Then you can wipe down and use a lighter lube to put it back in
operation. If your machine is new and has no wear on the quill/casting,
this treatment can bind it up, so you may have to go with a lighter
lube. The same procedure should still work, though. The idea is that
the working-in of more than ample lube and then repeatedly wiping off
and relubing will carry grit and chips out of the tight space between
quill and housing.

Jon

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:24 -0500, "RDF"
wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Rob


Talking about the quill being difficult to move up and down?

You got chips between the casting and the quill. Unfortunately all to
common and requires removing the head usually.

Try spritzing lube in the quill behind the depth stop.

Gunner

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:24 -0500, "RDF"
wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Rob


Talking about the quill being difficult to move up and down?

You got chips between the casting and the quill. Unfortunately all to
common and requires removing the head usually.

Try spritzing lube in the quill behind the depth stop.

Gunner


I was afraid of that. There was a lot of grease build up in there. Is this
a big deal to do? Would scoring be evident on the ram? I shot it full of
brake-clean a while ago to clean it up and some real funky stuff came out of
the bottom including metal after working it up and down. I thought I got it
all but it seems not. Is there a manual besides the stock setup manual that
would assist in this project you know of? Also- just got the airline
tickets for December. Can't wait to meet face to face!!

Thanks,

Rob

RDF writes:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where
the feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the
tooling to move.

One more thing to consider, although not likely from your description, is
the clockspring.

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:05:23 -0500, "Rob Fraser"
FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:24 -0500, "RDF"
wrote:

Is there anything that would create and overly tight condition where the
feed arm is really, really tight and hard to depress to get the tooling to
move. I tried another machine the other day and it was like butter. Mine
requires quite a bit of effort to lower and raise the handle. I keep the
oil caps filled and run it up-and down regularly when not in use. I see no
pitting or rust anywhere. Is there something simple I'm missing?
Any help is appreciated.

Rob


Talking about the quill being difficult to move up and down?

You got chips between the casting and the quill. Unfortunately all to
common and requires removing the head usually.

Try spritzing lube in the quill behind the depth stop.

Gunner


I was afraid of that. There was a lot of grease build up in there. Is this
a big deal to do? Would scoring be evident on the ram? I shot it full of
brake-clean a while ago to clean it up and some real funky stuff came out of
the bottom including metal after working it up and down. I thought I got it
all but it seems not. Is there a manual besides the stock setup manual that
would assist in this project you know of? Also- just got the airline
tickets for December. Can't wait to meet face to face!!

Thanks,

Rob


Pull the bolts holding the head/motor assembly (4 IRRC and with an
engine hoist...lift it right straight up and away. Let it hang out of
the way.

Then you can dig into the quill. Remove the quill stop and hardware
(mind the little toggle piece) and pull the quill.

Its almost an interference fit....so it doesnt take much to jam it.

Ill be doing this tommorow at a clients place. I cant get them to
stop using an air hose to clear chips....but they pay well...about
every 6 months...
Iggy has a maint manual on his website

Gunner

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:50:46 -0500, "Rob Fraser"
FraserRacing"AT"RobFraser.Net wrote:



It's pretty snug throughout the entire length of travel but indeed, I do
feel more friction at the beginning of the feed. I'll take a crack the
setscrew. How tight would you recommend I set it?

The wall of the quill is quite thin where the cap threads in, so it
doesn't take much to push it out of round. I think it's strictly a
matter of trial and error. Back off the setscrew and see if it helps,
snug it 'til you feel binding, then back off again until the drag goes
away.

But I think you need to figure out the larger binding problem before
worrying about this.

--
Ned Simmons

Gunner-

If I understand this correct from your description- pull the four
vertical bolts holding the head to the base (Head holding the quill with
rack gear rail- base with pinion gear. Lift directly vertical, clean the
internal surfaces of the base that holds the quill and reinstall...

Do I remove it completely or just enough vertical lift to access the
bore to clean it of funk? If I go too far and it pops out of the bore am I
going to have a problem reinstalling it or just let it hunt the first tooth
on the rack and pinion, drop in into place and re-torque the four bolts. I
have a nylon sling and locking vicegrips for sheetmetal so I can control
slipping of the head. Am I on page with this operation?

Thanks again!

Rob

Rob Fraser wrote:
Gunner-

If I understand this correct from your description- pull the four
vertical bolts holding the head to the base (Head holding the quill with
rack gear rail- base with pinion gear. Lift directly vertical, clean the
internal surfaces of the base that holds the quill and reinstall...

There are only 3 of these bolts. You have access to the nuts,
the bolts are in a round T-slot in the belt housing. If you
have a way to lift it straight up, like an engine hoist, you can
pull it motor and all. You have to lift carefully straight up
so as not to bend the upper part of the spindle.

Once the belt housing is removed, (and do it completely so you
don't risk bumping something and bending the spindle) then
remove the skirt with 2 screws in the top of the quill. Block
up the spindle to prevent it from falling, and remove the two
screws next to the feed handle on the right side. The
counterspring is in this, and it will unwind as soon as you take
the screws out. Then, you should be able to remove the cover
and pinion as one piece out the right side of the head.
The quill can now be dropped out the bottom of the main housing.
(Oh, you have to get the stop ring off the front, too.)
Do I remove it completely or just enough vertical lift to access the
bore to clean it of funk?
You want to remove the belt housing entirely, so as not to have
it hanging by the spindle. I'm not sure if there is a reason
you can't lift the spindle out the top, but maybe it will bind
going that way. I have always dropped them out the bottom, the
normal direction they extend. Maybe that is because the feed
gear is in the way.
If I go too far and it pops out of the bore am I
going to have a problem reinstalling it or just let it hunt the first tooth
on the rack and pinion, drop in into place and re-torque the four bolts. I
have a nylon sling and locking vicegrips for sheetmetal so I can control
slipping of the head. Am I on page with this operation?
As I say above, you can't get the quill out the top without
disassembling stuff you don't want to mess with. I am not sure
whether the rack teeth go all the way to the top of the quill,
maybe they do. If so, you don't have to pull the pinion, but
you probably do have to unscrew the plate around the feed handle
so you don't break the counterspring. You would be winding it
down well past where it normally goes.

You still have to pull the belt housing to remove the quill
skirt. Maybe when factory fresh this will just slip through the
bore, but not after the machine has been used a lot.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Rob Fraser wrote:
Gunner-

If I understand this correct from your description- pull the four
vertical bolts holding the head to the base (Head holding the quill with
rack gear rail- base with pinion gear. Lift directly vertical, clean the
internal surfaces of the base that holds the quill and reinstall...

There are only 3 of these bolts. You have access to the nuts, the bolts
are in a round T-slot in the belt housing. If you have a way to lift it
straight up, like an engine hoist, you can pull it motor and all. You
have to lift carefully straight up so as not to bend the upper part of the
spindle.

Once the belt housing is removed, (and do it completely so you don't risk
bumping something and bending the spindle) then remove the skirt with 2
screws in the top of the quill. Block up the spindle to prevent it from
falling, and remove the two screws next to the feed handle on the right
side. The counterspring is in this, and it will unwind as soon as you
take the screws out. Then, you should be able to remove the cover and
pinion as one piece out the right side of the head.
The quill can now be dropped out the bottom of the main housing.
(Oh, you have to get the stop ring off the front, too.)
Do I remove it completely or just enough vertical lift to access the
bore to clean it of funk?
You want to remove the belt housing entirely, so as not to have it hanging
by the spindle. I'm not sure if there is a reason you can't lift the
spindle out the top, but maybe it will bind going that way. I have always
dropped them out the bottom, the normal direction they extend. Maybe that
is because the feed gear is in the way.
If I go too far and it pops out of the bore am I
going to have a problem reinstalling it or just let it hunt the first
tooth on the rack and pinion, drop in into place and re-torque the four
bolts. I have a nylon sling and locking vicegrips for sheetmetal so I
can control slipping of the head. Am I on page with this operation?
As I say above, you can't get the quill out the top without disassembling
stuff you don't want to mess with. I am not sure whether the rack teeth
go all the way to the top of the quill, maybe they do. If so, you don't
have to pull the pinion, but you probably do have to unscrew the plate
around the feed handle so you don't break the counterspring. You would be
winding it down well past where it normally goes.

You still have to pull the belt housing to remove the quill skirt. Maybe
when factory fresh this will just slip through the bore, but not after the
machine has been used a lot.

Jon

Thanks Jon,
I totally see a disaster in my future doing this myself. I'm going to
find a repair service in the Chicago area and bite the bullet on this one.
I'll watch and see what he does but I'm going to totally screw this up if I
try it. I might as well replace the timing belt, drive belt, springs, and
any other p/m parts they recommend. This is too big of an investment to
play super-hero on. Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation. I'm noticing
..040 runout on the spindle up top when the quill is fully seated upwards so
I'm going to replace that as well.


Respects,

Rob

Rob Fraser wrote:
Thanks Jon,
I totally see a disaster in my future doing this myself. I'm going to
find a repair service in the Chicago area and bite the bullet on this one.
I'll watch and see what he does but I'm going to totally screw this up if I
try it. I might as well replace the timing belt, drive belt, springs, and
any other p/m parts they recommend. This is too big of an investment to
play super-hero on. Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation. I'm noticing
.040 runout on the spindle up top when the quill is fully seated upwards so
I'm going to replace that as well.
Oh, hell, this stuff isn't rocket science (where you get blown
up if anything goes wrong). The Bridgeport J head is really
pretty simple, easy to disassemble and work on, and if you just
take your time and are careful with the heavy pieces, you are
not likely to get in trouble.

..040" runout? Hmm, that could be related, hope you don't have a
bent spindle. Yes, when you have it open, definitely wise to
replace all the wear parts. My head sounded pretty OK, but
looked a bit rough, so I opened it all up anyway. I'm REAL glad
I did, several of the small bearings in the back gear train had
exploded, the ball spacers had broken up and been creamed by the
balls, and there were chunks of the spacers and shields just
laying in the gear train! The plastic bushings in the
vari-speed pulleys should be checked, most likely they will need
to be replaced if the head has a lot of time on it.

There are pins that ride in a cam ring that lifts the driven
pulley assembly to release the direct-drive clutch. (It is
different on the 1J and 2J, but I think they all have this
problem that the pins wallow out the threads in the bearing
housing that goes up and down. So, you want to check if those
pins are wobbly.

You want to check the pipe cleaner-like oil wicks to make sure
they are dripping oil where it is needed.

If the spindle has to come out, your service person will get
that evil gleam in their eye and try to sell you a new spindle
bearing set. Just be sitting on something soft and secure when
he tells you the price! I totally lucked out on the 1J head I
bought to retrofit my round-ram Bridgeport. The bearings had
been changed just before it was packed away for storage. Or, at
least I think that must be the story, as it had that run-in lube
jelly stuff in the bearings. Hopefully these bearings will
outlast me.

Jon

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:45:01 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Rob Fraser wrote:
Gunner-

If I understand this correct from your description- pull the four
vertical bolts holding the head to the base (Head holding the quill with
rack gear rail- base with pinion gear. Lift directly vertical, clean the
internal surfaces of the base that holds the quill and reinstall...

There are only 3 of these bolts. You have access to the nuts,
the bolts are in a round T-slot in the belt housing. If you
have a way to lift it straight up, like an engine hoist, you can
pull it motor and all. You have to lift carefully straight up
so as not to bend the upper part of the spindle.

Once the belt housing is removed, (and do it completely so you
don't risk bumping something and bending the spindle) then
remove the skirt with 2 screws in the top of the quill. Block
up the spindle to prevent it from falling, and remove the two
screws next to the feed handle on the right side. The
counterspring is in this, and it will unwind as soon as you take
the screws out. Then, you should be able to remove the cover
and pinion as one piece out the right side of the head.
The quill can now be dropped out the bottom of the main housing.
(Oh, you have to get the stop ring off the front, too.)
Do I remove it completely or just enough vertical lift to access the
bore to clean it of funk?
You want to remove the belt housing entirely, so as not to have
it hanging by the spindle. I'm not sure if there is a reason
you can't lift the spindle out the top, but maybe it will bind
going that way. I have always dropped them out the bottom, the
normal direction they extend. Maybe that is because the feed
gear is in the way.
If I go too far and it pops out of the bore am I
going to have a problem reinstalling it or just let it hunt the first tooth
on the rack and pinion, drop in into place and re-torque the four bolts. I
have a nylon sling and locking vicegrips for sheetmetal so I can control
slipping of the head. Am I on page with this operation?
As I say above, you can't get the quill out the top without
disassembling stuff you don't want to mess with. I am not sure
whether the rack teeth go all the way to the top of the quill,
maybe they do. If so, you don't have to pull the pinion, but
you probably do have to unscrew the plate around the feed handle
so you don't break the counterspring. You would be winding it
down well past where it normally goes.

You still have to pull the belt housing to remove the quill
skirt. Maybe when factory fresh this will just slip through the
bore, but not after the machine has been used a lot.

Jon


The quill has to come out the bottom. The rack isnt full length on the
quill.

I did this Wed morning. Used a fork lift with sling to pull the head
(after removing the 3 nuts).

The rest of your post is accurate enough.

Found 3 tiny chips binding up the quill.

The Russian machinist refuses to stop using the (full house pressure)
air nozzle to clean chips off the machine.

What with replacing the motor pulley (A belt..trying to run a B belt
doesnt work...)on a thread roller, the Bridgeport and fixing a
Clausing drill press.....took me 4 hours

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr