I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes

What about a couple of quartz tube radiant heaters above the work area.
42

"Wes" wrote in message
...
I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling
over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to
play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes








--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes

On the Bridgeport, 6' front to back, 15' to one side, 4' to the other .
On the lathe 6' front to back and 6' to the left of the head stock, 1'
to the right. The bridgeport long side space can overlap the lathe space
as long as the lathe is far enough back so that long stock on the
Bridgeport can clear the front of the lathe.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:29:39 -0400, Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes





Wes..my shop is partially a 14x 60 aluminum roofed car port. Its only
partially enclosed. So what I do, is hang canvas tarps on both ends of
the working area and the sides, during the winter months and use a
torpedo heater and a fan to circulate the heat

In your case...yes, Id think making a "room" and heating it would work
fine. You could use tarps as well, and simply fold them up and tuck
them away in the spring. I think though that Id double them up, walls
and ceiling with some airspace between them...Michigan...

Think Fish Shanty with machine tools G

Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:29:39 -0400, Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I
have a bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an
uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no
way I could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just
the cost of heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I
drywall the ceiling over the machining area, insulate the walls and
ceiling in the area and put in some partitions that I remove during
the warmer times and buy some sort of direct vented heating system
that keep it warm that I could continue to play this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes





Wes..my shop is partially a 14x 60 aluminum roofed car port. Its only
partially enclosed. So what I do, is hang canvas tarps on both ends of
the working area and the sides, during the winter months and use a
torpedo heater and a fan to circulate the heat

In your case...yes, Id think making a "room" and heating it would work
fine. You could use tarps as well, and simply fold them up and tuck
them away in the spring. I think though that Id double them up, walls
and ceiling with some airspace between them...Michigan...

Think Fish Shanty with machine tools G

Gunner

A caution on that torpedo heater . They produce massive quantities of
moisture . I fired one up in my shed and was two days drying stuff out . A
vented heater will not add moisture to your space , or CO either for that
matter . My space is small enough (8X8X12) that a 1500 watt electric keeps
it usable . Of course Memphis isn't Michigan ...
The doubled tarps are a great idea though !
--

Snag aka OSG #1
'90 Ultra , "Strider"
The road goes on forever ...
none to one to reply

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:10:35 -0500, "Snag"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:29:39 -0400, Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I
have a bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an
uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no
way I could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just
the cost of heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I
drywall the ceiling over the machining area, insulate the walls and
ceiling in the area and put in some partitions that I remove during
the warmer times and buy some sort of direct vented heating system
that keep it warm that I could continue to play this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes





Wes..my shop is partially a 14x 60 aluminum roofed car port. Its only
partially enclosed. So what I do, is hang canvas tarps on both ends of
the working area and the sides, during the winter months and use a
torpedo heater and a fan to circulate the heat

In your case...yes, Id think making a "room" and heating it would work
fine. You could use tarps as well, and simply fold them up and tuck
them away in the spring. I think though that Id double them up, walls
and ceiling with some airspace between them...Michigan...

Think Fish Shanty with machine tools G

Gunner

A caution on that torpedo heater . They produce massive quantities of
moisture

Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

. I fired one up in my shed and was two days drying stuff out . A
vented heater will not add moisture to your space , or CO either for that
matter . My space is small enough (8X8X12) that a 1500 watt electric keeps
it usable . Of course Memphis isn't Michigan ...
The doubled tarps are a great idea though !

Gunner Asch wrote:

Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

Can't you at least get "Off Road Diesel"? Same thing as heating oil /
fuel oil, just regular #2 diesel minus the transportation fuel taxes and
with added dye.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:17:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:10:35 -0500, "Snag"
wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:29:39 -0400, Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I
have a bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an
uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no
way I could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just
the cost of heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I
drywall the ceiling over the machining area, insulate the walls and
ceiling in the area and put in some partitions that I remove during
the warmer times and buy some sort of direct vented heating system
that keep it warm that I could continue to play this winter.

It's regular 18" OC or 24" OC trusses? I would put doubler 2X4's on
the ceiling joist chord of the truss, and 1/2" Plywood "floor" for
your storage. Then you have a 7" space to stuff with R-19 fiberglass
insulation and face with drywall.

And make sure the plywood notches for the roof joists are tight to
the edges, so you don't have mice getting under it. (DAMHIKT - I have
to redo the Storeroom ceiling...)

(Our main garage ceiling only has 2X8's on 4' centers for tension
members, I have to inter-set with extra joists at 16" OC before I can
drywall the garage ceiling proper.

Use either a *vented* ceiling-mount Unit Heater (Modine "Hot Dawg"
or eq.) or a *vented* wall furnace, or a *vented* radiant tube heater
for a heat source. Note the word *vented*, that is the critical part.
Leave the thermostat set low to keep the condensation down when you
are not in there - 45-ish.

For Michigan I'd do the ceiling and walls and doors, seal up the
whole room so you can work in there in February. But put up curtains
or temp walls to cut the heat loss for when it's storage.

Wes..my shop is partially a 14x 60 aluminum roofed car port. Its only
partially enclosed. So what I do, is hang canvas tarps on both ends of
the working area and the sides, during the winter months and use a
torpedo heater and a fan to circulate the heat

Psst! Gunner, one of those pipe-style radiant heaters running the
length of the carport would be a lot more efficient for a semi-open
area. It heats the people and the cats, not the air. Put one for
yourself on your Scrounging List.

And the flame is enclosed in the pipe and up near the ceiling, not
down on the deck where the spilled Gasoline Fumes live...


A caution on that torpedo heater . They produce massive quantities of
moisture. I fired one up in my shed and was two days drying stuff out . A
vented heater will not add moisture to your space , or CO either for that
matter . My space is small enough (8X8X12) that a 1500 watt electric keeps
it usable . Of course Memphis isn't Michigan ...

Yabbut, Gunner's Carport "shop" has dirt floors and lots of free air
exchange around the sides, so moisture buildup isn't a problem - he
needs people comfort heat. But if you try running any unvented heater
in a enclosed and tightly sealed room the moisture will quickly have
every cold metal surface sweating.

Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

Go get a barrel of Red Dyed Diesel - no sense paying Road Use Taxes
on fuel that won't be used on the road...

Oh, and #2 Distillate Fuel Oil = #2 Diesel for all practical
purposes. I know of bunches of "fuel oil" burners (both common
flame-retention and steam-jet) happily running on Red #2 Diesel in
Southern California.

-- Bruce --

Gunner Asch wrote:
Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

Yea, What the devil is going on with the price of kerosene?
It should be cheeper than diesel, no highway taxes and
basically the same fraction. I was looking for some to
use as a cutting fluid for aluminium and couldn't find
it at the places I use to,Gas stations. The hardware
store I was told sold it is out and it costs about $4
a gal when the have it. Diesel is still less than $3
even with all the Fed and State taxes.
Guess I'll try it for cutting.
...lew...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

Psst! Gunner, one of those pipe-style radiant heaters running the
length of the carport would be a lot more efficient for a semi-open
area. It heats the people and the cats, not the air. Put one for
yourself on your Scrounging List.

Second this. Those things made it comfortable to work in a short sleeve
t-shirt right next to open loading dock doors in the New England winter.


And the flame is enclosed in the pipe and up near the ceiling, not
down on the deck where the spilled Gasoline Fumes live...

Another big bonus.


Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

Go get a barrel of Red Dyed Diesel - no sense paying Road Use Taxes
on fuel that won't be used on the road...

Absolutely, and those taxes are significant.


Oh, and #2 Distillate Fuel Oil = #2 Diesel for all practical
purposes. I know of bunches of "fuel oil" burners (both common
flame-retention and steam-jet) happily running on Red #2 Diesel in
Southern California.

I ran my diesel generator from the regular 275 gal heating oil tank.
Never any issues.

On 2007-10-16, Lew Hartswick wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:
Propane or fuel oil? Mine run #2 Diesel (fuel oil is unavailable here)
or Kerosene at twice the price of diesel......

Yea, What the devil is going on with the price of kerosene?
It should be cheeper than diesel, no highway taxes and
basically the same fraction. I was looking for some to
use as a cutting fluid for aluminium and couldn't find
it at the places I use to,Gas stations. The hardware
store I was told sold it is out and it costs about $4
a gal when the have it. Diesel is still less than $3
even with all the Fed and State taxes.
Guess I'll try it for cutting.
...lew...

It is available at a gas station 2 miles from me, it is not very
uncommon. I will soon buy 5 more gallons. I use it for parst washing
and fire starting.

i

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:57:07 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes

On the Bridgeport, 6' front to back, 15' to one side, 4' to the other .
On the lathe 6' front to back and 6' to the left of the head stock, 1'
to the right. The bridgeport long side space can overlap the lathe space
as long as the lathe is far enough back so that long stock on the
Bridgeport can clear the front of the lathe.


Hey Wes,

I think Pete's required floor spacing is pretty big. I sure don't
have that kind of space around any of my stuff. I have three lathes
and a Bridgeport and a surface grinder plus lots of benches and tools
in a 24 X 24. I have tool boxes etc on wheels that "crowd" the
machines, but which I can easily roll out of the way when I need to
use that space. But hey ........

Tell us a bit more about this garage. Concrete floor? How big is it?
Rafter height? Is it totally detached, or is some part of it already
protected by the house? What does it have for garage door(s), and for
walk-in access? Windows?

I just have a small 15,000 BTU natural gas un-powered "wall furnace",
set to 60 degrees, and it's real nice to work in. Ceiling fans running
24/7 help with a number of problems. I don't have it, but others
swear by natural gas or propane radiant heat.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:33:00 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Wes..my shop is partially a 14x 60 aluminum roofed car port. Its only
partially enclosed. So what I do, is hang canvas tarps on both ends of
the working area and the sides, during the winter months and use a
torpedo heater and a fan to circulate the heat

Psst! Gunner, one of those pipe-style radiant heaters running the
length of the carport would be a lot more efficient for a semi-open
area. It heats the people and the cats, not the air. Put one for
yourself on your Scrounging List.

And the flame is enclosed in the pipe and up near the ceiling, not
down on the deck where the spilled Gasoline Fumes live...


I will. Never seen them..but Ill start looking.

Thanks!

Gunner

Bridgeport manual specifies such area dimensions.

You can download Bridgeport manuals here

http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Bridgeport/

i

On 2007-10-16, Brian Lawson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:57:07 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

Wes wrote:

I live in northern michigan where it gets a bit chilly at times. I have a
bridgeport and a Clausing 6903 12x36 lathe out in an uninsulated garage.

Since I store a bunch of light stuff up in the trusses, there is no way I
could ever insulate / drywall the whole garage along with just the cost of
heating the whole garage, so I'm thinking what if I drywall the ceiling over
the machining area, insulate the walls and ceiling in the area and put in
some partitions that I remove during the warmer times and buy some sort of
direct vented heating system that keep it warm that I could continue to play
this winter.

Thoughts on wall construction, heat source, and basic layout are very
welcome.

Thanks,

Wes

On the Bridgeport, 6' front to back, 15' to one side, 4' to the other .
On the lathe 6' front to back and 6' to the left of the head stock, 1'
to the right. The bridgeport long side space can overlap the lathe space
as long as the lathe is far enough back so that long stock on the
Bridgeport can clear the front of the lathe.


Hey Wes,

I think Pete's required floor spacing is pretty big. I sure don't
have that kind of space around any of my stuff. I have three lathes
and a Bridgeport and a surface grinder plus lots of benches and tools
in a 24 X 24. I have tool boxes etc on wheels that "crowd" the
machines, but which I can easily roll out of the way when I need to
use that space. But hey ........

Tell us a bit more about this garage. Concrete floor? How big is it?
Rafter height? Is it totally detached, or is some part of it already
protected by the house? What does it have for garage door(s), and for
walk-in access? Windows?

I just have a small 15,000 BTU natural gas un-powered "wall furnace",
set to 60 degrees, and it's real nice to work in. Ceiling fans running
24/7 help with a number of problems. I don't have it, but others
swear by natural gas or propane radiant heat.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Brian Lawson wrote:

Tell us a bit more about this garage. Concrete floor? How big is it?
Rafter height? Is it totally detached, or is some part of it already
protected by the house? What does it have for garage door(s), and for
walk-in access? Windows?

24' x 32' detached garage with two overhead doors. Bridgeport sitting is
sitting with rear near centerline of garage near right overhead door. The
lathe is on the other side atm so I can get at everything to recondition it.

My one entry door is generally blocked with something in the way.

My thoughts are to use the front right side of garage near overhead.

WEs

Brian Lawson wrote:

I just have a small 15,000 BTU natural gas un-powered "wall furnace",
set to 60 degrees, and it's real nice to work in. Ceiling fans running
24/7 help with a number of problems. I don't have it, but others
swear by natural gas or propane radiant heat.

Is that a vented furnace? I've used torpedo and kerosene heaters but they
dump at least a gallon of water for gallon of fuel or near that into
atmosphere. Navy blimps burning diesel actually got heavier as fuel burned
out. Just a bit of trivia. The collected the water vapor from exhaust and
sent it to ballast tanks. Saved venting helium to adjust buoyancy.

Wes

Lew Hartswick wrote:

Yea, What the devil is going on with the price of kerosene?
It should be cheeper than diesel, no highway taxes and
basically the same fraction.

That is a good question. Considering that diesel is now ultra low sulfur
diesel.

Wes

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:07:51 -0400, Wes wrote:

Brian Lawson wrote:

I just have a small 15,000 BTU natural gas un-powered "wall furnace",
set to 60 degrees, and it's real nice to work in. Ceiling fans running
24/7 help with a number of problems. I don't have it, but others
swear by natural gas or propane radiant heat.

Is that a vented furnace? I've used torpedo and kerosene heaters but they
dump at least a gallon of water for gallon of fuel or near that into
atmosphere. Navy blimps burning diesel actually got heavier as fuel burned
out. Just a bit of trivia. The collected the water vapor from exhaust and
sent it to ballast tanks. Saved venting helium to adjust buoyancy.

Wes


Hey again Wes,

Yes, it is a vented system, although that is just a 4" duct, and not
anything special or powered. "Wall furnaces" are made to sit between
studs 16"OC, and will adapt to either single room or two room heating.
That just means that you can mount one on an outside wall, but more
practical to mount it on an inside partition wall so that it is half &
half in two rooms. Mine sits plump in the middle of the shop, with
full clearance on front and one side, and about 12" on the back and 4"
on the other side.

I just sold one that had a fan built in, and electronic ignition, so
it required 110 VAC to operate, whereas the one I heat my shop with
has no fan and requires no "power" at all. It uses what is called a
milli-amp thermostat. Mind you, I mentioned before that I run 2
ceiling fans 24/7, and I have an 8" fan mounted about 7 feet off the
floor that blows at the top of the heat-exchanger.

Good luck.

Brian.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:03:50 -0400, Wes wrote:

Brian Lawson wrote:

Tell us a bit more about this garage. Concrete floor? How big is it?
Rafter height? Is it totally detached, or is some part of it already
protected by the house? What does it have for garage door(s), and for
walk-in access? Windows?

24' x 32' detached garage with two overhead doors. Bridgeport sitting is
sitting with rear near centerline of garage near right overhead door. The
lathe is on the other side atm so I can get at everything to recondition it.

My one entry door is generally blocked with something in the way.

My thoughts are to use the front right side of garage near overhead.

WEs
Hey again Wes,

Well, if you actually live where snow flies in and stays for a while
or longer, then if I were you I would "unblock" that small door.
Opening and closing an overhead door is a huge time and money waster
if it isn't necessary. My garage is attached such that the house
forms two walls. The ceiling is dry-walled and has really deep
insulation batts in place laid in above it. All the walls, even above
the overhead doors, are insulated and dry-walled. One of my two
walk-in doors is in one of those house walls, and the other is
protected in a sort of alcove (outside). The two 4-section 10 W x 7H
overhead doors have a 1" styrofoam inside covering from the factory,
and I'm lucky that the house sits on my lot such that the prevailing
wind hits the house walls. And once again, I'd like to mention what a
great job those two ceiling fans do all year long at spreading the
heat, and keeping air moving so there is no moisture and therefore no
rust.

I'd suggest you completely cover and insulate both the garage doors,
and if you don't want to vent, then use electric heat. But it won't
be cheap. Not like it was 20 or 30 years ago. But it is easy to do,
and pretty safe.

I can't say I recall your mention about

lathe is on the other side atm so I can get at everything to recondition it.

is all about, but I had a single garage (10 X 21??) before that had
three walls formed by the house walls, and an 8' high drywalled
ceiling. Only the garage door was "outside". On a nice day one fall,
I opened the 1-piece overhead door fully, and ran a 2 X 4 from wall to
wall at the ceiling and another one at the floor plumb with the first
one, just 4" clear of the opened overhead door. I put in jacks
(studs??) at the ends, and all this stuff was fastened with 3" (small)
angle brackets and 2'1/2 inch wood screws to hold it all in place
(you'll see why in a second). I added studs 16"OC between these top
and bottom plates, applied luan plywood on one side and added
insulation batts and then put luan ply on the other side too to
sandwich the batts. The ply was 4X8 sheets, and I just put two sheets
per side, starting at each wall. Then I cut the top and bottom plates
at the in edges of the "walls". So now I've got these two "walls"
up, each 4'W X 8H, and in-between them I framed in a door between the
4X8 sheets. I think it was a 30" door as I recall, and I filled
abouve it and insulated. Voila!! A wall that I could remove (as I
had to when I sold the house) by just removing the visible wood screws
and kicking them over.

With just a 9" lathe and a small horizontal mill and a drill press,
benches and tools, it was crowded but cozy.

Maybe something similar for you?

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

It's regular 18" OC or 24" OC trusses? I would put doubler 2X4's on
the ceiling joist chord of the truss, and 1/2" Plywood "floor" for
your storage. Then you have a 7" space to stuff with R-19 fiberglass
insulation and face with drywall.

24" OC W trusses. Oh, you want the lowest part of truss, that part that
spans to top plates to be doubled. Then I put filler plywood across inside
the webs to make a deck?

And make sure the plywood notches for the roof joists are tight to
the edges, so you don't have mice getting under it. (DAMHIKT - I have
to redo the Storeroom ceiling...)

Mice are not cute little critters. They have ruined more than a few things
in my garage at times.


Use either a *vented* ceiling-mount Unit Heater (Modine "Hot Dawg"
or eq.) or a *vented* wall furnace, or a *vented* radiant tube heater
for a heat source. Note the word *vented*, that is the critical part.
Leave the thermostat set low to keep the condensation down when you
are not in there - 45-ish.


I'm all over that vented part. We put a hot dawg heater in moms woodshead
converted by 3 sliding doors, insulation and a bunch of skylights into her
greenhouse. Being able to go out there in the winter is likely adding years
to her life.

That looks like a 80% efficient unit.

Thanks,

Wes