Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old September 8th 07, 10:54 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:12:18 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:
Mastic wrote:


All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120
Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on
some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.


I have 440 delta and 240 single phase in my garage, delivered from the
mains.


Lucky you. Not much need for 440 and the more expensive switchgear to go
with it unless you have a really big installation.


Or you have a small shop operation and need to run specialized gear
that only comes 480V 3-Ph. You can do a LOT more from a 480V 200A
service than from a 240V 200A service.

You can boost 240V up to 480V with transformers, but you have to be
careful to not max out the 240V service. The front office gets very
annoyed when you blow the main and black out the whole building.

-- Bruce --


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Old September 9th 07, 05:13 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:12:18 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:
Mastic wrote:


All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120
Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on
some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.

I have 440 delta and 240 single phase in my garage, delivered from the
mains.


Lucky you. Not much need for 440 and the more expensive switchgear to go
with it unless you have a really big installation.


Or you have a small shop operation and need to run specialized gear
that only comes 480V 3-Ph. You can do a LOT more from a 480V 200A
service than from a 240V 200A service.

You can boost 240V up to 480V with transformers, but you have to be
careful to not max out the 240V service. The front office gets very
annoyed when you blow the main and black out the whole building.

-- Bruce --


If it's even remotely close to maxing out a 240V 200A 3ph service, it's
a big installation, no mater how physically small it may be.
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Old September 9th 07, 08:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:20:57 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


240 for delta service, but you're more likely to find 208/120 wye
service in most places.


Not in Southern California, if my 10+ yrs of machine tool repair is
any indicator.

Gunner


All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120
Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on
some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.


Probably a regional thing. Shrug

Gunner
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Old September 9th 07, 08:28 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Pinging Bruce for Clarification

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:13:48 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:12:18 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:
Mastic wrote:


All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120
Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on
some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.

I have 440 delta and 240 single phase in my garage, delivered from the
mains.

Lucky you. Not much need for 440 and the more expensive switchgear to go
with it unless you have a really big installation.


Or you have a small shop operation and need to run specialized gear
that only comes 480V 3-Ph. You can do a LOT more from a 480V 200A
service than from a 240V 200A service.

You can boost 240V up to 480V with transformers, but you have to be
careful to not max out the 240V service. The front office gets very
annoyed when you blow the main and black out the whole building.

-- Bruce --


If it's even remotely close to maxing out a 240V 200A 3ph service, it's
a big installation, no mater how physically small it may be.



Chuckle..I did that yesterday.

Had 6 Moog Hydrapoints and 4 Okuma Twin Turrets running on a 200 amp.

Then I added a Okuma LS2200

Ooops

Well..he was hogging with a 1.25" drill bit. Shrug
The hogging exceeded my very very thin margin..

Busted tools in just about every machine.

Gunner
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Old September 9th 07, 08:29 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Pinging Bruce for Clarification

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:46:59 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:34:44 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

Ken Sterling wrote:
Bruce (or anyone qualified).....
Three phase power ----- isn't each leg 120 degrees from the others?
Single phase power - 220v - isn't each leg 180 degrees from the other?
If the above is correct (and I'm hoping I understand it correctly) it
would stand to reason, that if you needed to hook up a 220v single
phase machine and you had 3 phase available at that location you
could, (and I am not saying it's correct) connect to two of the three
phases and run the machine, even tho the sine waves wouldn't be 180
out, it probably wouldn't hurt anything. Am I correct in this
assumption??? Any and all comments welcome
Thanks.
Ken.

Three phase is usually 208/120. 208 volts between phases and 120 volts
leg to ground. Many machines have a 200 volt tap for this situation.

Stuart


Its usually 240/120.

Do the math


120 * SqrRoot 3 (1.73)= 208

Hmmm I did the math, then I stuck the probes of my Fluke on the 3
phase into our shop, and almost every other large distro I've ever had
to work in and found 208/120. If your little corner of the world is
different, it ain't my fault.

But then again, so much of your little world doesn't agree with reality,
why should this be different.

Stuart


Well...shrug..it is California. The 7th largest economy in the world.

You did say you live in the Rust Belt, right?


Gunner


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Old September 9th 07, 08:52 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mastic wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Mastic wrote:

All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120
Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on
some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.

I have 440 delta and 240 single phase in my garage, delivered from the
mains.


Lucky you. Not much need for 440 and the more expensive switchgear to go
with it unless you have a really big installation.


I just have a Bridgeport mill clone and a lathe in my garage, pure
hobby stuff. The machines have built in 440 volt switchgear.

David


That isn't switchgear, it's machine controls. The switchgear is the
meter socket and distribution panel for the 440V delta service, both of
which cost significantly more than the equivelents for 220V delta
service, which those machines will happily run on. I'd never consider
440V service until I had at least 6 large CNC machines.
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Old September 9th 07, 10:39 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Pinging Bruce for Clarification

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:28:10 -0700, Gunner
wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:13:48 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


If it's even remotely close to maxing out a 240V 200A 3ph service, it's
a big installation, no mater how physically small it may be.


Chuckle..I did that yesterday. Had 6 Moog Hydrapoints and 4 Okuma Twin
Turrets running on a 200 amp. Then I added a Okuma LS2200.

Ooops

Well..he was hogging with a 1.25" drill bit. Shrug
The hogging exceeded my very very thin margin..


No, more like you were betting on not all the machines running at
the same time, let alone several of them running flat out and hogging
at the same moment... And as you can see, that isn't a smart bet.

Busted tools in just about every machine.


And the front office people probably weren't amused when their
computers and AC went away either. Is this an industrial park, or can
they bump the service up?

How many of those machines are dual 240/480V? You can get the new
service in and change them over one at a time.

Sometimes you can cheat - if this is in an industrial park and the
unit next door is only being used as a warehouse, they aren't using
their full 200A service - you can install a sub-meter and get some
more electricity from them.

-- Bruce --

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Old September 10th 07, 11:31 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:39:03 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:28:10 -0700, Gunner
wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:13:48 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


If it's even remotely close to maxing out a 240V 200A 3ph service, it's
a big installation, no mater how physically small it may be.


Chuckle..I did that yesterday. Had 6 Moog Hydrapoints and 4 Okuma Twin
Turrets running on a 200 amp. Then I added a Okuma LS2200.

Ooops

Well..he was hogging with a 1.25" drill bit. Shrug
The hogging exceeded my very very thin margin..


No, more like you were betting on not all the machines running at
the same time, let alone several of them running flat out and hogging
at the same moment... And as you can see, that isn't a smart bet.


The customer was betting on it. I warned him many months ago.
On the other hand..he pays very well and on time. Shrug.

Busted tools in just about every machine.


And the front office people probably weren't amused when their
computers and AC went away either. Is this an industrial park, or can
they bump the service up?


I bumped it up from 200 amps total to 800 amps total, with multiple
services. 4 shops in the complex, one with 600 amps total, 1 with 200
amps on the same meter main, and 2 with seperate 200 amp meter mains.

It took 3 months for the City and So Cal Edison to get their heads out
of their asses on the new meter main..with another 2 weeks to convince
the city inspector that 1992 Okumas never had, nor never will have UL
listings.

How many of those machines are dual 240/480V? You can get the new
service in and change them over one at a time.


Nope..only about 25% are dual voltage.

Sometimes you can cheat - if this is in an industrial park and the
unit next door is only being used as a warehouse, they aren't using
their full 200A service - you can install a sub-meter and get some
more electricity from them.

-- Bruce --


Already doing that with the 120 volt service...the bulding was built
in 1959. Most of the shops had single 50 amp 120 volt service with a
meter attached to the 6 breaker "main"

They hired an engineering company at the outset. Then they expected
me to impliment the results.

Ive many compliments on the quality of workmanship, the way I designed
everything for future expansion and so forth.

I dont get any brownie points for not getting 400 amps from a 200 amp
service. Shrug

Its safe, its up to code, it looks good. But they simply dont have
enough power in some places. And it will take an act of Crom to get
anyone to make it so.

Then they stuck (2) I-R 15hp screw compressors and the dryers into the
mix...cringe.

Gunner



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Old September 10th 07, 06:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:31:36 -0700, Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:39:03 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:


I bumped it up from 200 amps total to 800 amps total, with multiple
services. 4 shops in the complex, one with 600 amps total, 1 with 200
amps on the same meter main, and 2 with seperate 200 amp meter mains.

It took 3 months for the City and So Cal Edison to get their heads out
of their asses on the new meter main..with another 2 weeks to convince
the city inspector that 1992 Okumas never had, nor never will have UL
listings.

How many of those machines are dual 240/480V? You can get the new
service in and change them over one at a time.


Nope..only about 25% are dual voltage.


Darn. Well, if you can get both flavors of power from Edison you
can change over the ones that can take 480V, and that takes a lot of
pressure off the 240V service. Will help the compressor problem.

Sometimes you can cheat - if this is in an industrial park and the
unit next door is only being used as a warehouse, they aren't using
their full 200A service - you can install a sub-meter and get some
more electricity from them.


Already doing that with the 120 volt service...the bulding was built
in 1959. Most of the shops had single 50 amp 120 volt service with a
meter attached to the 6 breaker "main"


Were they still on A-Base meters and fuses? ;-)

They hired an engineering company at the outset. Then they expected
me to impliment the results.

Ive many compliments on the quality of workmanship, the way I designed
everything for future expansion and so forth.

I dont get any brownie points for not getting 400 amps from a 200 amp
service. Shrug


Hey, one place was trying to suck 200A through a 100A meter socket
and Type RHW risers. They thought upgrading the panel to a 200A would
solve everything... The rubber insulation was a bit crispy crackly
after 50 years in that pipe.

Its safe, its up to code, it looks good. But they simply dont have
enough power in some places. And it will take an act of Crom to get
anyone to make it so.


Been there... Remember when houses had a 30A service because "we'd
never need anything more than that..."? Then the single-family house
standard went to the 70A "Crowfoot" panel. Then 100A. Then 125A. We
held at 200 for a while, and now they skipped straight to 400A...

Progress marches on, and there's always another wonderful
labor-saving (and power sucking) tool or appliance right around the
corner.

Then they stuck (2) I-R 15hp screw compressors and the dryers into the
mix...cringe.


Hey, that helps the power situation if they are put in constant-run
mode and cycle on the unloaders, then there's only one start surge per
shift. And it's those essentially locked-rotor start surges that kick
the demand factor through the roof, and trip that Main Breaker that's
teetering on the edge.

-- Bruce --

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Old September 10th 07, 06:21 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:11:36 -0700, Bruce L Bergman wrote:

Hey, that helps the power situation if they are put in constant-run
mode and cycle on the unloaders, then there's only one start surge per
shift. And it's those essentially locked-rotor start surges that kick
the demand factor through the roof, and trip that Main Breaker that's
teetering on the edge.


An electronic soft start drive (or a VFD) could help here, right?

i


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