On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:15:16 GMT, zadoc wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:56:48 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:27:16 GMT, zadoc wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:01:59 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:31:25 GMT, zadoc wrote:

Ever hear of Masada? A large number of Jews took refuge on a mountain
fortress and held out against the Roman legions. When it became
obvious that the Romans were going to win, they all committed suicide.

Except for a few hiding in a cistern IIRC. They escaped.

Actually hadn't heard that. Interesting if true. Do you have a
reference?

Just for starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada
"This account of the siege of Masada was apparently related to Josephus by two
women who survived the suicide by hiding inside a cistern along with five
children."

Striking forehead with hand, thinking "Hell, I should have realized
that Wikipedia would have something on it!" :-)

I found it in a search to post my reply to you G.
The info I already knew .... just needed to find something online. I'd
not recalled the exact name "Josephus" (and cannot much spell anyway).

Searching for"Josephus" plus a bit more would probaby find a lot more.

...But thanks for the answer, anyway!

Ask anytime G.
--
Cliff

On 21 Jan 2006 19:40:53 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Cliff wrote in
:

Try using the CDC death stats to adjust your data for "american
stupidity". See what you get G.

Death stats? That's funny too. Maybe you mean the mortality statistics?

Help yourself

The ones that show that the life expectancy at birth is now 77.5 years? Not
70 as in your very old data. Those stats?

You think that they were 7.5+ years old? And that you are getting
younger each year?
"DALE life expectancy in years"
"WHO measures health quality by DALE
DALE = life expectancy adjusted by disability/infimity"

I'll hop right on that just as soon as you find a country to compare to
that has the same demographics as the US.

IOW Lots of guns?
--
Cliff

zadoc wrote:
Stats Health Motor vehicle deaths

#1 United States 15.5 deaths per 100,000 people
#8 Australia 10 deaths per 100,000 people
#10 Canada 9.6 deaths per 100,000 people
[no data on UK]
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_mot_veh_dea

This one is a bit hard to explain. The US has a far better freeway
system than Australia or Canada, yet a higher death rate. Worse
weather than Australia, but better weather than Canada.

Perhaps the US needs a stricter licensing system or tougher
laws?

Cheers,


I don't think it's the highway system as much as the bloody fools
running red lights. From the perspective of an Albuquerquean.
:-) :-)
...lew...

"zadoc" wrote in message
...

Stats Health Motor vehicle deaths

#1 United States 15.5 deaths per 100,000 people
#8 Australia 10 deaths per 100,000 people
#10 Canada 9.6 deaths per 100,000 people
[no data on UK]
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_mot_veh_dea

This one is a bit hard to explain. The US has a far better freeway
system than Australia or Canada, yet a higher death rate. Worse
weather than Australia, but better weather than Canada.


No, it's not hard to explain. First, read _How To Lie With Statistics_. Then
take a look at the number of miles driven per capita in each of those
countries.

Here are *miles driven per capita* for those countries, for 1998:

Australia 4282
Canada 3685
USA 5730

(Source, OECD)

Statistics can be used to tell a lie even when they're true. It's their
beauty and their magnificence. d8-)

Homework assignment number one: Determine the current per-capita driving
rates.

Assignment number two: Determine the number of passenger-miles driven, to
see if that's what OECD is actually reporting (they're not infallible) or if
you have to get total passenger miles to relate correctly to number of
highway deaths per capita.

Assignment number three: Make sure those countries count "motor vehicle
deaths" in precisely the same way. For example, some may count pedestrians
that are hit by cars, and some may count only car passengers.

Incidently, the same can be said of your other stats. They are meaningless,
for similar kinds of reasons. Consider it homework exercise number four to
determine why. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 21 Jan 2006 07:17:58 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

The fact that we don't have widespread
epidemics killing off large chunks of the populace is another indicator
that there is good healthcare. That there are a lot of murders is not
indicitive of how good a job the medical profession is doing.

Actually..our murder rate is rather down..at 1960s levels, but with
several times the population and with far more firearms.

The one thing that has helped keep the crime rate low..and falling..is
abortion.

Not a nice thing to say..but true.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gunner wrote:

The one thing that has helped keep the crime rate low..and falling..is
abortion.

Not a nice thing to say..but true.




Well then I certainly hope that you are pro-abortion.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I still don't see the evidence that life expectancy at birth is
indicitive of the quality of the healthcare. Which was my original and
only point. Bad data and bad correlations always lead to bad policy. Or
to borrow a phrase from my favorite useless idiot. Find any WMD's yet?


Another point is "correlation" has absolutely nothing to do with
"cause and effect". One of my bigest "pet peeves" :-)
...lew...

Lew Hartswick wrote in news:9nNAf.876$1n4.160
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:


I still don't see the evidence that life expectancy at birth is
indicitive of the quality of the healthcare. Which was my original and
only point. Bad data and bad correlations always lead to bad policy. Or
to borrow a phrase from my favorite useless idiot. Find any WMD's yet?


Another point is "correlation" has absolutely nothing to do with
"cause and effect". One of my bigest "pet peeves" :-)
...lew...


Mine too. That's why I even bothered to reply. But Cliff probably knows
that. He's just a troll.

--

Dan

On 22 Jan 2006 01:26:38 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:

The one thing that has helped keep the crime rate low..and falling..is
abortion.

Not a nice thing to say..but true.




Well then I certainly hope that you are pro-abortion.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

And dont have the slightest problem with a retroactive abortion
performed on a malcreant with a suitible cartridge when caught in a
serious criminal act.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In article , Gunner says...

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Then one would surmise you are pro-birth control as well.
The current discussion of Griswold v CT must be interesting.

And dont have the slightest problem with a retroactive abortion
performed on a malcreant with a suitible cartridge when caught in a
serious criminal act.

Best done by private citizens I would say. Once the state gets
involved it tends to drag out.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 22 Jan 2006 12:40:09 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Then one would surmise you are pro-birth control as well.
The current discussion of Griswold v CT must be interesting.

It is. Individual rights versus States rights versus the
Constitution.

And dont have the slightest problem with a retroactive abortion
performed on a malcreant with a suitible cartridge when caught in a
serious criminal act.

Best done by private citizens I would say. Once the state gets
involved it tends to drag out.

Jim

And can be really expensive. A couple Gold Dots in .45 are what...half
a buck?

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: Gunner writes on Sun, 22 Jan 2006
20:05:57 GMT in misc.survivalism :
On 22 Jan 2006 01:26:38 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:

The one thing that has helped keep the crime rate low..and falling..is
abortion.

Not a nice thing to say..but true.

Well then I certainly hope that you are pro-abortion.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

I'm anti-abortion myself. (Same goes for the death penalty and
divorce. In a perfect world, none of the three would be necessary.)
However, you should see the facial expressions change when I say
"Doesn't matter to me. After all it is only Those People(tm), who are
getting them." And I never say who I mean by "Those People(tm)" either,
but I can tell you, they're not Us(tm).


And dont have the slightest problem with a retroactive abortion
performed on a malcreant with a suitible cartridge when caught in a
serious criminal act.

I feel sorry for the individual, in a general sense of I'm sorry you
made such choices as to bring you to where getting killed was your option.
I like the quote form Firefly: "No son, you murdered yourself, I just
carried the bullet."

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

Gunner wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.




Jesus Christ.

What a bunch of delusion. Tell it like it is, you ****ing ******.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
pro-abortion

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:37:54 -0800, kurgan wrote:


Gunner wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.




Jesus Christ.

What a bunch of delusion. Tell it like it is, you ****ing ******.

Yes? Which part of that didnt you understand?


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
pro-abortion

Too bad your parents didnt feel t he same way. So..how many babies have
you killed so far?

Gunner

gunner wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:37:54 -0800, kurgan wrote:


Gunner wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.




Jesus Christ.

What a bunch of delusion. Tell it like it is, you ****ing ******.

Yes? Which part of that didnt you understand?





I dunno.

That's the same answer that Hillary Clinton gives.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article , Gunner says...

Best done by private citizens I would say. Once the state gets
involved it tends to drag out.

And can be really expensive. A couple Gold Dots in .45 are what...half
a buck?

I can think of a couple of cases. That guy who murdered his
adopted daughter, about ten years ago. I think he's out on
parole right now.

Also that guy on the LIRR train that time. I always though,
what a shame it was that after they wrestled him to the ground,
his own gun didn't just happen to 'go off' accidentally.
And then, in the heat of the moment, nobody really saw what
happened.

Mind you, I do feel that the death penalty, as administered
by the state, is a bad idea. But as I said, in the heat
of the moment...

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 23 Jan 2006 19:56:55 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


gunner wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:37:54 -0800, kurgan wrote:


Gunner wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.




Jesus Christ.

What a bunch of delusion. Tell it like it is, you ****ing ******.

Yes? Which part of that didnt you understand?





I dunno.

That's the same answer that Hillary Clinton gives.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I see you are still avoiding the questions..to the point of snipping
them out of the posts you reply to.

Now Ive seen your disengeniousness at work. Typical. You and Dennis
related?

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gunner wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006 19:56:55 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


gunner wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:37:54 -0800, kurgan wrote:


Gunner wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.




Jesus Christ.

What a bunch of delusion. Tell it like it is, you ****ing ******.

Yes? Which part of that didnt you understand?





I dunno.

That's the same answer that Hillary Clinton gives.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I see you are still avoiding the questions..to the point of snipping
them out of the posts you reply to.

Now Ive seen your disengeniousness at work. Typical. You and Dennis
related?



Which points? I'll answer them.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On 23 Jan 2006 19:56:55 -0800, "kurgan" wrote:

I dunno.

That's the same answer that Hillary Clinton gives.

A LOT better answer than "More guns will fix it" or
"Lets kill someone".
--
Cliff

"zadoc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:05:57 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Illogical. You cannot be both.

Cheers,


Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers who fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.

I'd like to think I'd do the same in their shoes, but I'm not sure I'd be up
to it.

Gunner opposes abortion on principle but holds higher the right of women to
decide for themselves. It's a similar thing. Many people are in the same
position.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"zadoc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:05:57 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Illogical. You cannot be both.

Cheers,


Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers who fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.



That's a poor analogy.

"kurgan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ed Huntress wrote:
"zadoc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:05:57 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Illogical. You cannot be both.

Cheers,


Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers who
fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.



That's a poor analogy.


Well, then, tell us a good one.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers who
fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.



That's a poor analogy.


Well, then, tell us a good one.



"I'm anti-abortion, but pro-choice."

"I'm anti-torture, but pro-waterboarding."


It's just semantics. The First Amendment/Nazi thing is not semantics.
You support their right to express their opinion (as do I).


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"kurgan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ed Huntress wrote:

Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers
who
fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.



That's a poor analogy.


Well, then, tell us a good one.



"I'm anti-abortion, but pro-choice."

"I'm anti-torture, but pro-waterboarding."


It's just semantics. The First Amendment/Nazi thing is not semantics.
You support their right to express their opinion (as do I).

Semantics is the wrong word here, because all semantics means is the meaning
of words. It sounds like you're saying, rather, that the positions are
incompatible.

Since I draw about the same conclusion as Gunner on this issue (although I
have no idea how he arrives there, nor if we have anything in common about
that), maybe I could explain my own position. I have a gut aversion to
abortion. Without making a judgment about when a gestating fetus acquires
enough human characteristics that I'd say it's crossed some imaginary line,
they're close enough, particularly in the third term, that I have almost the
same feeling about killing one as I have about killing a born human being.
Not quite the same, but close. It's a continuum. The closer it gets to
full-term, the more I feel it.

But, in the early term, I have no such feeling at all. There's no magic
here. Conception is of no more significance to me than the fertilization of
ragweed.

So, unless you have a strong belief that all fetuses have some spiritual or
divine characteristic, you can have the same reaction those ACLU lawyers had
toward the First Amendment rights of the Nazis. The woman's body is her own
business. Early in her pregnancy, if she chooses to abort, I feel neither a
philosophical nor an emotional conflict in leaving it up to her.

Late in her pregnancy, an emotional conflict develops in me against her
having an abortion. It's not philosophical -- I have no internal lines drawn
concerning the "rights" of the fetus until it actually is born. But I oppose
late-term abortions as a matter of human sympathy. That's when it gets tough
to adhere to a genuine philosophical principle, that it's the woman's
business until the fetus is born, and not mine.

I see that as something similar to the Nazi situation. Someone espousing
views you object to should not challenge your support for him to speak his
mind. When he starts saying things that insult and offend you, it gets
tougher. When he's saying you are a lower sub-species of human being who
should be treated more like an animal than a human, and he's speaking with
the intention of prosyletizing for more people to believe as he does, we
find out whether you're a man of principle or not.

There are a lot of similarities here. BTW, my experience is that few people
have the courage of their beliefs to do what those ACLU lawyers did.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:26:22 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

When he's saying you are a lower sub-species of human being who
should be treated more like an animal than a human, and he's speaking with
the intention of prosyletizing for more people to believe as he does, we
find out whether you're a man of principle or not.

I sort of fail to note Gunner or any other winger as a "higher"
species. Of anything G.
--
Cliff

On 28 Jan 2006 08:31:29 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


Ed Huntress wrote:
"zadoc" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:05:57 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I am anti-abortion, but pro- choice.

Illogical. You cannot be both.

Cheers,


Sure you can. I'm anti-Nazi, but I admire the Jewish ACLU lawyers who fought
for the Nazis' right to hold a parade in Skokie, Illinois. They were
anti-Nazi but pro-free-speech.



That's a poor analogy.

actually..thats an excellent analogy.

Gunner


"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin