This is what they are going to do and below you can read what happened.

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research
Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct
tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to
provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down
commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs. The tests will be
documented by videotape. It is expected that the video tape will be
released during a press conference for maximum media exposure.

The ATFE plans were first discovered by a high power rocket vendor who
recognized the name of ATFE agent, David Shatzer, as he purchased
launch rail equipment. Mr. Shatzer has been traveling across the
country purchasing other high power rocket supplies using the cover
story that he is a high power rocket hobbyist. He changes the story
with respect to who he will be flying with depending on his
geographical location. Applied Research Associates has purchased at
least 40 J350 rocket motors and large numbers of rocket kits from
different suppliers.

It was reported to ARSA that Applied Research Associates employees
along with ATFE agents were to conduct tests yesterday at Hill Air
Force Base using a target drone to simulate a commercial aircraft. The
high power rockets were to be launched out of a parked van. The
rockets were going to be launched one at a time at the drone as well
as several at a time. The rockets did not contain explosive warheads.
It is not known whether the drone was rigged to simulate an explosion
as a high power rocket passed by.

This is what happened :-)
Dave

More interesting news about our buddies at the BATFE.

There is a rumor floating around about ATF "blowing up" a truck during
the
Utah tests. Most of what is being said is inaccurate. Here is what we
know.

ATF, through the USAF, hired an independent contractor to conduct some
tests.
ATF purchased a number of J350, G80s and other motors for these tests.
They
also purchased some kits from at least 2 manufacturers. The tests, being
conducted here in Utah (off I80, north of mile marker 60) have been
taking
place most of November through last week.

Supposedly, they affixed a launcher in the back of a van and were
launching
from the van. As to why, we can only speculate. They also had numerous
reloads
in the same van while launching. One of the J350s catoed and ignited the
rest,
burning the van to the ground. (It did not blow up, it just burned up.)
So
much for hired experts who supposedly should know better.

This, of course, begs a question: If APCP is explosive as they claim,
why
would they be ingniting motors near other motors - with people sitting
in
the
van? Would they have conducted tests in this manner if the materials
being
tested were TNT based? Hmmmm...


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:45:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

This is what they are going to do and below you can read what happened.

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research
Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct
tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to
provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down
commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs.

What a great boondoggle! Some guys have all the fun. I got to
work on a few boondoggles so I guess I've had my turn, but this
does sound like fun. ****-simple mission, gadgets to make and fly
on Unc's nickel, , get to blow things out of the desert sky. Sweet!

Ourr tax dollars at work, applying the guidance & control engineering
expertise of ATF agents to preserve our national security. Phew!

Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a wall?

Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:45:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

This is what they are going to do and below you can read what
happened.

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research
Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct
tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to
provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down
commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs.

What a great boondoggle! Some guys have all the fun. I got to
work on a few boondoggles so I guess I've had my turn, but this
does sound like fun. ****-simple mission, gadgets to make and fly
on Unc's nickel, , get to blow things out of the desert sky. Sweet!

Ourr tax dollars at work, applying the guidance & control engineering
expertise of ATF agents to preserve our national security. Phew!

Don Foreman wrote in message . ..
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:45:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

This is what they are going to do and below you can read what happened.

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research
Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct
tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to
provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down
commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs.

What a great boondoggle! Some guys have all the fun. I got to
work on a few boondoggles so I guess I've had my turn, but this
does sound like fun. ****-simple mission, gadgets to make and fly
on Unc's nickel, , get to blow things out of the desert sky. Sweet!

Ourr tax dollars at work, applying the guidance & control engineering
expertise of ATF agents to preserve our national security. Phew!


A great boondoggle? ?
Their mission was to _prove_ that one more freedom _needs_ to be taken away
in the name of security.
In an increasingly complex world, we can have a free or a safe world.
Maintaining both is becoming ever more unlikely.
Perhaps there should be more debate over which we prefer.
Pete

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:45:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

You have to love the stupidity of the ATF. I can hardly wait until
they figure out how many OTHER materials can be used to make rocket
motors, or how easy it is to make an artillery piece using magnets or
compressed air.
Ah, I just love goading the bull into useless rampages.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

Eric Pinnell wrote:

You have to love the stupidity of the ATF. I can hardly wait until
they figure out how many OTHER materials can be used to make rocket
motors, or how easy it is to make an artillery piece using magnets or
compressed air.
Ah, I just love goading the bull into useless rampages.

Back when I was in high school we had a rocketry club. We didn't have
all these prefabbed rocket motors. We turned nozzles out of aluminum or
molded them in ceramic. Bodies were aluminum tube and we cooked up a
concoction of neoprene, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate in an
electric frying pan with a Rube Goldberg remote stirrer. We had a
healthy respect for them but nobody got upset. In fact the paper came
out and covered one of our launches. Made the front page bragging on
the quality of the local science education.

We would probably go to jail for that today.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Think if you check into it, some of our own guys bullets went thru the
building and struck their buddies on the other side also. What a shame for
such misfortune.

"Bob Swinney"
Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot
through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda
thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a
wall?

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:UPFEb.8347$JD6.3577@lakeread04...


Eric Pinnell wrote:

You have to love the stupidity of the ATF. I can hardly wait until
they figure out how many OTHER materials can be used to make rocket
motors, or how easy it is to make an artillery piece using magnets or
compressed air.
Ah, I just love goading the bull into useless rampages.

Back when I was in high school we had a rocketry club. We didn't have
all these prefabbed rocket motors. We turned nozzles out of aluminum or
molded them in ceramic. Bodies were aluminum tube and we cooked up a
concoction of neoprene, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate in an
electric frying pan with a Rube Goldberg remote stirrer. We had a
healthy respect for them but nobody got upset. In fact the paper came
out and covered one of our launches. Made the front page bragging on
the quality of the local science education.

We would probably go to jail for that today.

'EX' as it is referred to by one hobby group is alive and well. APCP, ANCP,
Sugar motors all quite popular and relatively safe compared to 'early'
concoctions. The composite propellants (CP) don't require heat to combine
the components. More of a plastic binder.

Joel. phx


http://www.nakka-rocketry.net
http://www.trailertrashaerospace.com/
http://www.space-rockets.com/cptech.html



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Who would of thought that the ATF would be stupid enough to think that piece
of plywood would protect them?

Greg H.


"Mike" wrote in message
...
Think if you check into it, some of our own guys bullets went thru the
building and struck their buddies on the other side also. What a shame for
such misfortune.

"Bob Swinney"
Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot
through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda
thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a
wall?

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:32:59 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a wall?

Bob Swinney

The bad part was the ATF guys were shooting each other though those
walls. The whole rat**** started out with an ATF Thug shooting
himself in the leg when he got out of the cattle truck. Just about the
time they shot the dogs and puppies in the kennel.

Gunner


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:45:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

This is what they are going to do and below you can read what
happened.

November 4, 2003 - The ATFE and its contractor, Applied Research
Associates, have been purchasing high power rocket motors, rocket
kits, launch rails, electrical launchers and other items to conduct
tests at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. The purpose of the tests is to
provide proof that high power rockets can be used to shoot down
commercial aircraft during landings and takeoffs.

What a great boondoggle! Some guys have all the fun. I got to
work on a few boondoggles so I guess I've had my turn, but this
does sound like fun. ****-simple mission, gadgets to make and fly
on Unc's nickel, , get to blow things out of the desert sky. Sweet!

Ourr tax dollars at work, applying the guidance & control engineering
expertise of ATF agents to preserve our national security. Phew!



" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:10:16 -0600, "Mike"
wrote:

Think if you check into it, some of our own guys bullets went thru the
building and struck their buddies on the other side also. What a shame for
such misfortune.


Our own guys? the ATF? Jackbooted thugs? Yup..they shot each other
up pretty good.

They were issued Cyclone rounds, which are a derivative of the BAT
bullets, work pretty darned well punching holes in bullet proof vests.
As was demonstrated by them on each other.

Only problem..not enough of them shot each other.

Gunner

"Bob Swinney"
Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot
through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda
thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a
wall?



" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:31:22 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Back when I was in high school we had a rocketry club. We didn't have
all these prefabbed rocket motors. We turned nozzles out of aluminum or
molded them in ceramic. Bodies were aluminum tube and we cooked up a
concoction of neoprene, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate in an
electric frying pan with a Rube Goldberg remote stirrer. We had a
healthy respect for them but nobody got upset. In fact the paper came
out and covered one of our launches. Made the front page bragging on
the quality of the local science education.

We would probably go to jail for that today.

The ATF desperately wants to put AP on the explosives list, but
they can't because it isn't. Now that the model rocketeers are ****ed
off, they've got a political hot potato.
Me, I figure the more ATF and its ilk oppress people, the sooner
the revolution starts.
Of course, using ATF logic, we should ban gasoline, because that
can be made into an explosive. Ditto fertilizer.




Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:07:46 -0500, Eric Pinnell see my web site wrote:

(snip)
The ATF desperately wants to put AP on the explosives list, but
they can't because it isn't. Now that the model rocketeers are ****ed
off, they've got a political hot potato.
Me, I figure the more ATF and its ilk oppress people, the sooner
the revolution starts.
Of course, using ATF logic, we should ban gasoline, because that
can be made into an explosive. Ditto fertilizer.

Just recently on the local news(Springfield, Missouri) the ATF just came down
hard on a couple of gun/pawn shop owners. They had a BIG raid and took several
of them into custody. After all the hoopla they announced the charges(so far).
They had a couple of dealers with expired licenses. :/

It is easier to fight for our principles than to live up to them.-Alfred Adler

A city wide blackout at Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:09:55 GMT did not prevent Gunner
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:32:59 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a wall?

Bob Swinney

The bad part was the ATF guys were shooting each other though those
walls. The whole rat**** started out with an ATF Thug shooting
himself in the leg when he got out of the cattle truck. Just about the
time they shot the dogs and puppies in the kennel.

If the Davidians had been one tenth as dangerous as the BATF claimed they
were, there would have been swiss cheesed horse trailers dripping blood from
the dead BATFers.

But that's my opinion.

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

I'm with you there Glen -
did some of that with my brother in El Paso. Not a single thought
as it was an Army Missile base along with other stuff like a 3 wing
Bomber place :-)

Some years later as my son was growing up - some of the same rocket
materials
were not available any more. Now I see some in shops but very limited.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On 19 Dec 2003 07:42:01 -0800, (Pete Logghe)
wrote:



A great boondoggle? ?

Yeah, if you get to be the guy playing with rockets on their budget!

Their mission was to _prove_ that one more freedom _needs_ to be taken away
in the name of security.

What freedom might that be?

In any case, all the more reason to be there to see what really
happens. An individual or group of motivated and technically savvy
experimenters could probably do this, but a buncha ATF agents?
They'd just write a report saying that they got one off the ground
with few casualties at the launch site, thus proving their assertion.

In an increasingly complex world, we can have a free or a safe world.
Maintaining both is becoming ever more unlikely.
Perhaps there should be more debate over which we prefer.

"Eric Pinnell" see my web site wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:31:22 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
| wrote:
|
| Back when I was in high school we had a rocketry club. We didn't have
| all these prefabbed rocket motors. We turned nozzles out of aluminum or
| molded them in ceramic. Bodies were aluminum tube and we cooked up a
| concoction of neoprene, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate in an
| electric frying pan with a Rube Goldberg remote stirrer. We had a
| healthy respect for them but nobody got upset. In fact the paper came
| out and covered one of our launches. Made the front page bragging on
| the quality of the local science education.
|
| We would probably go to jail for that today.
|
| The ATF desperately wants to put AP on the explosives list, but
| they can't because it isn't. Now that the model rocketeers are ****ed
| off, they've got a political hot potato.
| Me, I figure the more ATF and its ilk oppress people, the sooner
| the revolution starts.
| Of course, using ATF logic, we should ban gasoline, because that
| can be made into an explosive. Ditto fertilizer.
|
|
|
|
| Eric Pinnell
|

Actually, AP is explosive. The APCP (AP Composite Propellant) rocket fuel
in its binder can not explode. Under ANY circumstances. The binder burns
but the AP bits are too small to propagate an explosion.

TK

--
Cogito ergo bibo

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:52:20 +0000, pyotr filipivich wrote:

A city wide blackout at Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:09:55 GMT did not prevent Gunner
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:32:59 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot through
the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda thought
them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a wall?

Bob Swinney

The bad part was the ATF guys were shooting each other though those
walls. The whole rat**** started out with an ATF Thug shooting
himself in the leg when he got out of the cattle truck. Just about the
time they shot the dogs and puppies in the kennel.

If the Davidians had been one tenth as dangerous as the BATF claimed they
were, there would have been swiss cheesed horse trailers dripping blood from
the dead BATFers.

But that's my opinion.

Am I the only one who remembers the TV special that ran several months after Waco,
which consisted of interviews with surviving AFT agents who gave their side of the
story? I don't remember the details (I think I might've switched channels before
it was over, too), but it seemed awfully contrived and one-sided. In fact, I don't
recall ever seeing that kind of a special before. I was reminded very much of
the stories where two people are partially at fault for something but as each
person tells their side they make themselves out to be angels. The main difference
was that the Davidians weren't there to give their side of what happened.
Up until then I didn't really have an opinion on what happened at Waco, but
after that show I tend to give more credence to those who criticized the ATF.

Perhaps it's just my imagination but I believe that I've been seeing a trend
where LEO's have become more and more paramilitary over the past ten or more
years, and I wonder why. Have the many police reality shows been influencing
other police departments in a keeping-up-with-the-Jones' kind of game? Are
civilians really that much more dangerous than they used to be? If so, why?



--
"There cannot possibly be a god in heaven watching all of this calmly."
-- Revi Shankar




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Artemia Salina wrote:


Perhaps it's just my imagination but I believe that I've been seeing a trend
where LEO's have become more and more paramilitary over the past ten or more
years, and I wonder why. Have the many police reality shows been influencing
other police departments in a keeping-up-with-the-Jones' kind of game? Are
civilians really that much more dangerous than they used to be? If so, why?



Remember Kent State and May 4th?

A couple of years back Campus Police purchased M-16s. There was some
real screaming when that got out. They say they returned the assault
weapons but I have the feeling they put them in the Kent City PD as the
Campus Police Chief and City Police Chief are brothers.

They replaced the M-16s with some militarized sporting rifle.

What the hell does a university police department need with assault
weapons. On occasion I take classes and I have yet to meet a radical,
someone willing to stand against the system and make a sacrifice. These
people are sheople with a herd mentality.

And though KSU has some good officers Campus police are generally only
one click better than private security rental cops. I would have a hard
time trusting one in a real situation with such a weapon.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:55:32 -0500, Artemia Salina wrote:

|On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:52:20 +0000, pyotr filipivich wrote:
|
| A city wide blackout at Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:09:55 GMT did not prevent
Gunner
| from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
|On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:32:59 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
|wrote:
|
|Yeah! Kinda reminds me of the images of the ATF at Waco being shot through
|the thin wall of a metal building and rolling off the roof. Whooda thought
|them religious zealots would have had sense enough to shoot through a wall?
|
|Bob Swinney
|
|The bad part was the ATF guys were shooting each other though those
|walls. The whole rat**** started out with an ATF Thug shooting
|himself in the leg when he got out of the cattle truck. Just about the
|time they shot the dogs and puppies in the kennel.
|
| If the Davidians had been one tenth as dangerous as the BATF claimed they
| were, there would have been swiss cheesed horse trailers dripping blood from
| the dead BATFers.
|
| But that's my opinion.
|
|Am I the only one who remembers the TV special that ran several months after
Waco,
|which consisted of interviews with surviving AFT agents who gave their side of
the
|story? I don't remember the details (I think I might've switched channels
before
|it was over, too), but it seemed awfully contrived and one-sided. In fact, I
don't
|recall ever seeing that kind of a special before. I was reminded very much of
|the stories where two people are partially at fault for something but as each
|person tells their side they make themselves out to be angels. The main
difference
|was that the Davidians weren't there to give their side of what happened.
|Up until then I didn't really have an opinion on what happened at Waco, but
|after that show I tend to give more credence to those who criticized the ATF.

I saw that, and had the same reaction. It was a whitewash.
Criminal charges should have been applied.
Rex in Fort Worth