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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend
on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy |
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
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#3
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
One of the handiest tricks/tools I've ever used is a decent dial indicator
(typically the 1" travel version), with a mighty mag base. Great for getting work roughly (even though it's not exact, you can get pretty close with one) centered in a 4 jaw, or slap it on the ways (or where ever is handy) and you have a poor mans DRO for your lathe. Not exactly tool related, but ya could take some of the spare change from your budget and get a couple books. -- Lynn "I have opposable thumbs, and I'm not scared to use em" Amick http://www.amickracing.com "Randy" wrote in message ... A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy |
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#4
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
Randy wrote:
A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy $900 is not much to blow on what you may want.. or it might be???? an old man(engineer) retired and as he was well fixed financially he had a complete machine shop set up in his basement... all brand new equipment, lathe, milling machine, power saws, and cabinets off all kinds of tool, all brand new... next year his son had to sell all the stuff and get it out of the house, the old man died and never got any time to play with it...... |
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#5
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Anthony" wrote in message ... For Inch Measurements.. 0-6 calipers (Brown & Sharp, Starrett, Mahr, or Mitutoyo) 0-1 Micrometer and maybe a 1-2, depending on how big of work you are doing. Precision Combination Square set (Starrett) Set of Small bore gauges Magnetic Base, Last word indicator, 0-1 indicator and 0-3 indicator Radius Gauge Thread Gauge Anthony, you have expensive tasts. Especially the precision combination square set from Starrett and the last work indicator. Oh, and take the $350 Starrett 6" calipers out of there ;-) Personally, I'd just tool up with mostly imported tools. You may want to spend the bucks on the calipers (Mitutoyo are fairly reasonable) and the micrometer (again with the Mitutoyo). Definitely need the 1" plunge indicator + mag base combination (import quality) as well as a banana-type test indicator holder and a .0005" dial test indicator (for the mill, also import quality). You'll probably need a bull peen hammer, a deadblow hammer, a center punch, a scriber (carbide is not necessary, but nice) a good set of hex keys (Bondhaus is good, Ekland are OK). Get the keys, not the fold-outs. I'd go for the ball-end, although they are close to twice the price. You'll also need a fixed square (on the mill). Bevelled edge is better but more expensive (import quality - band names are wicked money). Edge-finder for the mill. There are other ways to do it, but the premium imports work well and are not too expensive. You'll also need files. Buy the Swiss-, American- or Canadian-made ones. Cheap files are useless. A 10-12" flat *******, a 10-12" flat 2nd cut (lathe type is nice for deburring pieces - which is what I use this file for all the time). You'll probably also want a 6" flat 2nd cut or smooth and a set of needle files (import quality is alright for the needle files - the good ones are big money). Some say a file card is not necessary (and may be detrimental to your files) although I'm not convinced it's a big issue (after filing for 6 weeks, 32 hours/week, using a file card to clean my files). Get some blackboard chalk for your files. When you buy HSS toolbits for the lathe, don't buy Chinese. Get the highest cobalt content you can afford (7% is good). You _will_ need a bench grinder... No, they don't come presharpened. No, brazed carbide cutters are not useful without sharpening. Don't be cheap ;-) That's all I can think of for now.. Regards, Robin |
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#6
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
Geeez - I just spent $1500 for some tools for my bench mill, and have
not bought any cutting tools yet :-) Not to mention the $10-15 k in measuring tools I have collected over the last 25 years Get a small granite plate, You can pick up a 9x12 for under $50, and a height gage for layout or measurement. a good mag base and o-1 dial indicator plus a .0005 long stem test indicator. 0-1, 1-2 mics, 8" dial calipers, small hole gages, telescoping gages, 6" rule, a good set of inside and outside spring calipers(starrett if possible) As you go along you can replace the cheaper tools with better ones if you continue in the hobby. I spent my moey on the good stuff a little at a time, but while working in a shop you generally have access to most of the tools you need. Its just nice not having to go search for them , so I get my own. jim wrote: Randy wrote: A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy $900 is not much to blow on what you may want.. or it might be???? an old man(engineer) retired and as he was well fixed financially he had a complete machine shop set up in his basement... all brand new equipment, lathe, milling machine, power saws, and cabinets off all kinds of tool, all brand new... next year his son had to sell all the stuff and get it out of the house, the old man died and never got any time to play with it...... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- James P Crombie Summerside Machinist Prince Edward Island Amateur Astronomer Canada 3D Designer Astronomy webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com Rhinoceros 3D webpage http://www.jamescrombie.com/rhino/ Mirror Grinder page http://www.jamescrombie.com/pics/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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#7
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
buy your stuff on ebay, i bought 4 last word indicator highest price was$35.
indicators sell for cheap $20 |
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#8
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Robin S." wrote in
: "Anthony" wrote in message ... For Inch Measurements.. 0-6 calipers (Brown & Sharp, Starrett, Mahr, or Mitutoyo) 0-1 Micrometer and maybe a 1-2, depending on how big of work you are doing. Precision Combination Square set (Starrett) Set of Small bore gauges Magnetic Base, Last word indicator, 0-1 indicator and 0-3 indicator Radius Gauge Thread Gauge Anthony, you have expensive tasts. Especially the precision combination square set from Starrett and the last work indicator. Oh, and take the $350 Starrett 6" calipers out of there ;-) Hrmmm... Maybe the prices have dramatically increased in the last few years...but I paid $180 for a Starrett combination set of 0-6" caliper, with depth gauge attachment and 0-1" mic both in the case, new. The combination square set wasn't too bad either. $200 IIRC. The original poster said they wanted quality tools, to last. Kind of my philosophy too...sure...I can buy an import quality tool every year or two, or I can purchase a quality tool for a bit more money and it be the last one I ever need to buy. Personal choice I guess. If I don't NEED it right away, I would prefer to wait until I can afford to buy the better quality tool. If I NEED it right now...the best quality I can afford at the time is what I get. -- Anthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email |
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#9
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
Randy wrote:
A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy If you have patience and don't absolutely need all of the tools right now, don't buy anything right away. Watch ebay and strike when the listing has a poor title, or is under market for whatever reason. Of course, you have to track some items first before you have an idea of the market. In the meantime someone may give you some of the tools you need or you may find them locally for next to nothing. |
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article , Anthony says...
0-6 calipers (Brown & Sharp, Starrett, Mahr, or Mitutoyo) Much though I like the starrett six inch calipers, I would have to advice a new worker to go with the mitutoyo, they are much more robust. 0-1 Micrometer and maybe a 1-2, depending on how big of work you are doing. You can find a lot of micrometers inexpensively on ebay. I would not buy these new. I would start with a simple thousanths reading one inch mic. Precision Combination Square set (Starrett) I would put that last on the list, honestly. Set of Small bore gauges Yes, the telescoping type. Very handy. Magnetic Base, Last word indicator, 0-1 indicator and 0-3 indicator Especially the last word type. Radius Gauge Thread Gauge As others have mentioned, edge finders or wigglers. Also a starrett automatic centerpunch and a scriber. A couple of good six inch rules if he does not spring for the 12 inch combination set. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#11
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article , ATP says...
If you have patience and don't absolutely need all of the tools right now, don't buy anything right away. Watch ebay and strike when the listing has a poor title, or is under market for whatever reason. Of course, you have to track some items first before you have an idea of the market. In the meantime someone may give you some of the tools you need or you may find them locally for next to nothing. Yes I forgot to add that. Best is if you can find an estate sale and get some used tools, these can be had very inexpensively if you know what the right prices are for new, and bargain appropriately. You also want to find a steel kennedy box to put this stuff in. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#12
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Anthony" wrote in message ... Hrmmm... Maybe the prices have dramatically increased in the last few years...but I paid $180 for a Starrett combination set of 0-6" caliper, with depth gauge attachment and 0-1" mic both in the case, new. What kind of caliper? I assume vernier when it is not specified. Starrett's only 6" vernier caliper is their Master and worth over $500 Cnd funds. Thier dial and digital calipers are more inline with Mitutoyo, although still more expensive. The combination square set wasn't too bad either. $200 IIRC. We sell them for about $220 Cnd. The original poster said they wanted quality tools, to last. Kind of my philosophy too...sure...I can buy an import quality tool every year or two, or I can purchase a quality tool for a bit more money and it be the last one I ever need to buy. True, but I would never suggest someone who's just starting out with a hobby to invest big money in the best tools when they don't even know if they will like the hobby. Precision tools go for pennies on the dollar when autioned on eBay. Personal choice I guess. If I don't NEED it right away, I would prefer to wait until I can afford to buy the better quality tool. If I NEED it right now...the best quality I can afford at the time is what I get. True. That works when you're starting out and will be doing the work for the next 30-40 years. Not for hobbyist. Those dollars could be better spent on a mill (and its tooling) or materials, or perhaps next week's grocery bill. Regards, Robin |
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#13
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... As others have mentioned, edge finders or wigglers. Does anyone actually use those things anymore? I find them useless compared to edge finders... Also a starrett automatic centerpunch and a scriber. Starrett auto punches are soooo much money. You can buy a hammer and *traditional* punch for less (and have better control over the size and location of your punches). A couple of good six inch rules if he does not spring for the 12 inch combination set. I'd say one needs a 6" flexible rule as well as the combination set, although I wouldn't go for the set until I had a use for it. Now that I've been forced to use them, I find the 6" rules to be one of my most used tools. Any instructor at work who used to work for Rolls Royce (aircraft engines) told us that they used to have their 6" rules calibrated on a regular basis, and there are calibration standards that apply to them. I'd get the rule with 10ths/50ths on one side, metric on the other. But I'm in Canada so one may opt for fractional inch instead. Another question, can anyone really read the 100th scales? I find them a complete blur when trying to count how many marks beyond the closest numbered division the part is. We seem to sell a lot of 10/100 scales at work, but I would never buy one. Regards, Robin |
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#14
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
Take the $900, put it in a savings account, and buy what you find you need
as you need it. The items I use most frequently are a 6" dial caliper (bought a new B+S 20 years ago), 0-1" micrometer, depth micrometer, dial indicator (my preference is the Interapid w/ 1.5 inch face and .0005 increment), edge finder and a couple of decent 6 and 12 inch rules. Keep your eyes out at estate sales and the like, as mentioned by others already. If you're going to buy new, shop around; here's a place that has some good deals www.penntoolco.com. -- John Sullivan Jamlab Enterprises http://jamlab.home.att.net "Randy" wrote in message ... A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy |
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article , Robin S. says...
What kind of caliper? I assume vernier when it is not specified. Starrett's only 6" vernier caliper is their Master and worth over $500 Cnd funds. Thier dial and digital calipers are more inline with Mitutoyo, although still more expensive. He was probably talking about the, what, model 196 dial caliper, which goes for less than 200 dollars. It does happen to be my favorite but requires *rigorous* attention to cleanliness to keep the rack from getting swarfed up. I have to holler at my co-workers at least once a week to get them to keep their calipers in the case, with the cover closed. I cured one guy by showing him how to disassemble one of those, and ultrasonically clean all the parts to get the chips out, and then re-assemble and re-set them. He's been a lot better lately. :^) ... I would never suggest someone who's just starting out with a hobby to invest big money in the best tools when they don't even know if they will like the hobby. Well yes. Part of the fun is hunting down the bargains, or repairing old tools gotten for cheap. I can still re-build dial indicators because one of my first forays into this stuff was dismantling an Ames indicator and fixing it up. Took about two months to get it right for the first one. But now I can do one in two hours. Precision tools go for pennies on the dollar when autioned on eBay. Hmm. Maybe you overstate the case just a *tiny* bit. I've purchased some stuff on ebay and to get what I really, really wanted, I wound up paying half or a third. Not quite pennies, and of course there's some risk there as well. Nice if you can fondle the merchandise before buying. I might also comment that what you consider 'big money' might be 'petty cash' for others. Ah to be rich! Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#16
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Robin S." wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... As others have mentioned, edge finders or wigglers. Does anyone actually use those things anymore? I find them useless compared to edge finders... Also a starrett automatic centerpunch and a scriber. Starrett auto punches are soooo much money. You can buy a hammer and *traditional* punch for less (and have better control over the size and location of your punches). A couple of good six inch rules if he does not spring for the 12 inch combination set. I'd say one needs a 6" flexible rule as well as the combination set, although I wouldn't go for the set until I had a use for it. Now that I've been forced to use them, I find the 6" rules to be one of my most used tools. Any instructor at work who used to work for Rolls Royce (aircraft engines) told us that they used to have their 6" rules calibrated on a regular basis, and there are calibration standards that apply to them. I'd get the rule with 10ths/50ths on one side, metric on the other. But I'm in Canada so one may opt for fractional inch instead. Another question, can anyone really read the 100th scales? I find them a complete blur when trying to count how many marks beyond the closest numbered division the part is. We seem to sell a lot of 10/100 scales at work, but I would never buy one. Regards, Robin Wouldn't spend for an auto center punch, Robin is right, too much $$$. Quality edge finder, make that 2. You will break 1 sooner or later. Happens to everyone. They don't cost much, so get quality. Mitutoyo 8" dials. No others need apply. Digitals have no feel. With dials you can get closer measurements if you are familiar with them and calibrate to the jaw area you will be measuring with. That is a fact not open to debate. I do it quite often and have to sell the work. A couple 6" scales, flexible type. Speaking of which, anyone know where to get same with decimal grads on both sides? I have little to no use for damned fractions. While I'm at it, decimal both sides with reversed pattern would be way cool. Robin? I have a Lost Turd indicator somewhere, I think. Why anyone wants one of those rather than a decent B&S or the spendy-but-love-em Interapid. If I have it and the OP is serious, I will give it to him for $$ of shipping. Don't forget that you will have machines, make stuff. It'll take time but it will allow you to gain experience at low risk and save the cash out of pocket. If/when you get a dead blow hammer, don't waste money on the solid cast type or a fibreglas handle, no feel. Get a wood handle like a Lixie. I had 1 each of the aforementioned and gave them both away. michael |
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#17
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
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#18
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article , Robin S. says...
Starrett auto punches are soooo much money. You can buy a hammer and *traditional* punch for less (and have better control over the size and location of your punches). The starrett punches do come in different sizes, the smallest one is pretty accurate. I use them to pick up markes from my scriber. I rarely use a hammer and separate punch at work, but then I do a lot of chassis work, where the automatic punches are invaluable. But if one picks up a previously made mark from a scriber, they're just as good as a prick punch. Another question, can anyone really read the 100th scales? I find them a complete blur when trying to count how many marks beyond the closest numbered division the part is. We seem to sell a lot of 10/100 scales at work, but I would never buy one. Sure, I often use them, under a microscope. They provide an excellent crossover between a microscope reticle and a coarser ruler. My favorite for six inch rules though is the starrette ones with eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds, and 64ths, *and* the end graduations. Nobody else likes to work in fractions so the co-workers never swipe them! Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#19
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:02:10 -0800, michael
wrote: "Robin S." wrote: "jim rozen" wrote in message ... As others have mentioned, edge finders or wigglers. Does anyone actually use those things anymore? I find them useless compared to edge finders... Also a starrett automatic centerpunch and a scriber. Starrett auto punches are soooo much money. You can buy a hammer and *traditional* punch for less (and have better control over the size and location of your punches). A couple of good six inch rules if he does not spring for the 12 inch combination set. I'd say one needs a 6" flexible rule as well as the combination set, although I wouldn't go for the set until I had a use for it. Now that I've been forced to use them, I find the 6" rules to be one of my most used tools. Any instructor at work who used to work for Rolls Royce (aircraft engines) told us that they used to have their 6" rules calibrated on a regular basis, and there are calibration standards that apply to them. I'd get the rule with 10ths/50ths on one side, metric on the other. But I'm in Canada so one may opt for fractional inch instead. Another question, can anyone really read the 100th scales? I find them a complete blur when trying to count how many marks beyond the closest numbered division the part is. We seem to sell a lot of 10/100 scales at work, but I would never buy one. Regards, Robin Wouldn't spend for an auto center punch, Robin is right, too much $$$. Quality edge finder, make that 2. You will break 1 sooner or later. Happens to everyone. They don't cost much, so get quality. Mitutoyo 8" dials. No others need apply. Digitals have no feel. With dials you can get closer measurements if you are familiar with them and calibrate to the jaw area you will be measuring with. That is a fact not open to debate. I do it quite often and have to sell the work. A couple 6" scales, flexible type. Speaking of which, anyone know where to get same with decimal grads on both sides? I have little to no use for damned fractions. While I'm at it, decimal both sides with reversed pattern would be way cool. Robin? I have a Lost Turd indicator somewhere, I think. Why anyone wants one of those rather than a decent B&S or the spendy-but-love-em Interapid. If I have it and the OP is serious, I will give it to him for $$ of shipping. Don't forget that you will have machines, make stuff. It'll take time but it will allow you to gain experience at low risk and save the cash out of pocket. If/when you get a dead blow hammer, don't waste money on the solid cast type or a fibreglas handle, no feel. Get a wood handle like a Lixie. I had 1 each of the aforementioned and gave them both away. michael For a beginner..Id have to say that there is nothing wrong with the Asian imports. Shrug..blasphemy as it may be. I spend all day long in production machine shops and see most of the guys using Peacock, Penguin, etc etc metrology equipment. Its the old timers and the inspection department with the spendy stuff. A customer of mine has a huge metrology department, calibration etc etc (and they do such for other companies, almost as a side line business) and while they shake their heads saying it..they cannot find anything wrong with the average Chinese mics, calipers etc etc. They all say they measure just as well, over a 5 yr period as do the Good Stuff. I have a shop full of The Good Stuff, but I also have the cheapies, and will grab whatever is handy at the moment with no worries. The Last Word indicators...are Junk. Make very well, but junk. Shrug. Dials are too small, they swarf up easily, etc etc. Nobody I know uses them anymore. They were Good Stuff at one time..but...that time is long gone. I have to use 10ths indicating Dial Test indicators every day doing CNC stuff, and shrug..they are worthless to me. Fowler, SchomerTec, Teslla, Mits, Peacock, Enco..etc etc..all decent. I have an old Federal that I keep in a plastic endmill holder in my tool box..old ******* is probably at least 40 yrs old. No chrystal, but still calibrates perfectly. I think it was $10 somewhere. When I had my truck burglarized in 2000, they took virtually all of my Mits and B&S stuff and Ive been slowly replacing them with Chinese etc..and find nothing wrong with them in a hard working, beater invironment. And when someone sets a 250lb casting on top of one..they only have to pay me $45 for a new one, rather than $150 for Good Stuff. (very long ugly story..lol) Gunner "The British attitude is to treat society like a game preserve where a certain percentage of the 'antelope' are expected to be eaten by the "lions". Christopher Morton |
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#20
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Robin S." wrote in
: "Anthony" wrote in message ... Hrmmm... Maybe the prices have dramatically increased in the last few years...but I paid $180 for a Starrett combination set of 0-6" caliper, with depth gauge attachment and 0-1" mic both in the case, new. What kind of caliper? I assume vernier when it is not specified. Starrett's only 6" vernier caliper is their Master and worth over $500 Cnd funds. Thier dial and digital calipers are more inline with Mitutoyo, although still more expensive. Dial Caliper. I am not sure of the model number, they are at the garage. Next time i'm over there i'll look. -- Anthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email |
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#21
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
"Gunner" wrote in message ... A customer of mine has a huge metrology department, calibration etc etc (and they do such for other companies, almost as a side line business) and while they shake their heads saying it..they cannot find anything wrong with the average Chinese mics, calipers etc etc. They all say they measure just as well, over a 5 yr period as do the Good Stuff. I have a shop full of The Good Stuff, but I also have the cheapies, and will grab whatever is handy at the moment with no worries. I think it really depends on the specific tool production run. They do make some very good tools, but they also make some junk. It just tends to fall apart or scratch because of their metallurgy/heat treat... What I tell people is that if they want the tool for the next 20 years, get the good stuff. If they're going to drop it in a year, get the not-so-great stuff. Besides.. They shouldn't be abusing the nice stuff anyway ;-) The Last Word indicators...are Junk. Make very well, but junk. Shrug. Dials are too small, they swarf up easily, etc etc. Nobody I know uses them anymore. They were Good Stuff at one time..but...that time is long gone. I have to use 10ths indicating Dial Test indicators every day doing CNC stuff, and shrug..they are worthless to me. I've never used one but I think the movement is nice. Starrett has a way of making their sliding components *feel* really slick. Kind of like the difference between Japanese and Swiss indicators. Yeah, both are accurate, but the Swiss *feels* better. When I had my truck burglarized in 2000, they took virtually all of my Mits and B&S stuff and Ive been slowly replacing them with Chinese etc..and find nothing wrong with them in a hard working, beater invironment. And when someone sets a 250lb casting on top of one..they only have to pay me $45 for a new one, rather than $150 for Good Stuff. (very long ugly story..lol) It's funny when you can read the impression an adjustable wrench left in a cast die shoe after having a 2000 ton press cycle the die (with little/no clearance). Whatever brand you choose, make sure it's the same brand everyone else has! Regards, Robin |
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#22
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
I want to thank all who've offered advice on what to get. The Kennedy
toolboxs have already been purchased, used, for cheap, one with the little 2 drawer chest for the box to set on. Used tools, if well taken care of are fine with me. My desire for knowing what "good stuff" is lets me know to what level to compromise to. IE: As a beginner, I may muck up a top notch $$$$ mic, but a less expensive model/brand that has good quality would work, and not hurt so much $$ when stupidity stikes. Or was that Murphy? That is what I want, not the cheap import, as I was given a chinese dial caliper some time ago, and it wouldn't repeat a zero every time the jaws were closed. Heck, it wouldn't even make a good doorstop. As one poster said, it was probably one of those poor quality runs. Before investing into a new "hobby", it pays to find out what others use & recommend, and WHY. Example, when all my carpet installation tools were stolen a few years ago, I went and replaced them all with new $$$ Crain stuff, except for the straight edge. Let the dealer talk me into a cheap aluminum one that a lot of other commercial installers were buying. Against my better judgement, I bought it. After trying to cut a straight seam by myself with it, I decided to go back and buy the $60.00 more galvanised steel one like I used to have. I asked one of the other installers about it, and they said they gave the aluminum ones to the laborers, to save money when they needed to be replaced. Still have that piece of junk on the wall, as a momento to quality. I liked the advice of buy the sizes I need now, get started, and move up as needed. And, the advice on deadblow hammers as well as a granite surface plate is something I never thought of. Auto punches vs manual. Well, I like both, and have both! :-) Ebay is one of my favorite haunts, though, generally I prefer to buy books, & hard to find specialty items.. I really like to handle the tools in person before buying. So, please pardon my rambling, And a Really Big Thanks for the Info!!!!!!! I've been putting together my shopping list, and may still have some money left in the bank. For a while, anyway!! Randy On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:48:59 GMT, (Randy) wrote: A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. |
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#23
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
Jim sez:
"My favorite for six inch rules though is the starrette ones with eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds, and 64ths, *and* the end graduations. Nobody else likes to work in fractions so the co-workers never swipe them!" IMO, there is a lot to be said for "working in fractions". One of my most useful tools is a vernier caliper that reads to 1/128". I use it mostly for basic measuring and layout work, while reserving the "decimal reading" mics and calipers for locating and fitting running parts. Bob Swinney |
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#24
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article ,
Anthony wrote: (Randy) wrote in news:3fc78412.287341 : A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy For Inch Measurements.. Do you care about metric? If so there are options which can pick that up at the same time. I'll make notes about that as I go through the following list 0-6 calipers (Brown & Sharp, Starrett, Mahr, or Mitutoyo) Dial, vernier, or digital -- depending on your luck, and your eyesight. (If your eyes are in need of glasses for close work, then my order of choice would be: 1) Digital, 2) Dial, 3) Vernier (with a magnifier to help reading) If you want to add metric, the order of choice would be: 1) Digital (switch between inch and metric with a push of a button. 2) Vernier (many have both metric and imperial scales and verniers. 3) Dial (two units). There are some which have two concentric dials, and two pointers like clock hands, but I'll bet that they are awkward to reset the zero after some swarf works under the gears. Another benefit of the digital, whether you care about the metric work or not, is that you can zero them on the size of your target diameter, and then read how much you have left to turn off on the lathe. (Perhaps divide by two depending on whether your lathe's cross-feed is calibrated for direct diameter removal or radius removal.) Also, you can zero the inside measurement on a single hole, and then use the inside between two holes of the same size to get a direct reading of center-to-center distance. These tricks are more difficult on a dial or a vernier -- requiring a notepad or a calculator in addition to the instrument. 0-1 Micrometer and maybe a 1-2, depending on how big of work you are doing. And while you are at it, get ones which read in 0.0001 (tenths), not in 0.001" steps. You can get close enough to that coarser figure with good calipers. (And a good sense of feel, since calipers spring a bit with higher contact forces.) The same trick for measuring material left to remove can be done with the digital micrometers, and they read in 0.00005" (half-tenth) steps -- probably closer than you will need to work for a long time. But *don't* buy digital *new*. I've gotten them all from hamfests or eBay auctions. Since you have an 11" lathe, I would consider that you might want a set of micrometers 0-6" (probably the biggest that you can turn over the cross-slide.) Precision Combination Square set (Starrett) Nice for some things, including the center gauge for marking off where to drill the center holes for turning between centers. Set of Small bore gauges Yes -- and telescoping gauges, as well, for the larger bores. Someday, if you're going to make precision bores, perhaps for cylinders, you may want to eventually pick up tri-mikes for good self-centering bore measurement. This is certainly another thing to go to eBay for, as one or two might exhaust your stated budget at new prices. :-) Magnetic Base, Yep! Last word indicator, 0-1 indicator and 0-3 indicator There are better ones than the "Last Word", and the others are better in the presence of swarf, but it is a minimum one. The 0-1 is for sure needed. The 0-3 can be set up on the lathe bed for turning to precise length, or on the cross-slide, if your cross-feed leadscrew is badly worn with lots of backlash and error. Radius Gauge Hmm ... not until you discover that you need them -- unless you are also expecting to get some radius end mills to produce edges where you may want to check radius -- and normally you know what end-mills you have. For diameters -- you have your micrometers. Thread Gauge Yes -- both inch and metric. If you're expecting to do a lot of threading, some thread measuring wires (to use with your micrometers), or if a *serious* lot of threading, especially threading to fit a matching piece which you don't have, a set of interchangeable anvil thread pitch diameter micrometers. Once you get one with the full set of anvils, stick with the same brand so you can get them without anvils (cheaper). These are also eBay items in my book. A set of center punches. If you want to have a nice setup, a Starrett toolmaker's hammer -- with a magnifying glass in the head A surface plate (not too expensive), and a height gauge with scribe. for precision layout work. A good scribe, and some spring calipers of all four types - Inside, outside, dividers, and hermaphrodite calipers -- the last another way to find the center of a round workpiece, and to layout a distance from an edge. Of course, Dykem layout dye to go with these. As others have suggested, an edge finder for the mill. Probably one with a 0.200" cylindrical end, and a pointed end. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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#26
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:48:59 GMT, (Randy)
wrote: A loaded question for sure, but hey, I've got about 900.00 to spend on tooling, to start. My future interestes are model making, small engines/model engine repair, etc. What type of tooling list would you recommend, both for layout and measurement? Brands/types ect., good quality, as I don't want to have to buy twice. I already have a well tooled, albeit old, SB 11" with the funky 1 5/8 spindle, and will be looking for a small mill in the distant future. Basically, I want to buy the majority of what I need now, to do most anything, and add specialty items on an "as needed" basis. Ideas? I realize it's a broad request, but I want to cover the bases. All comments welcome. If you want to drop an email, remove the first 2 m from the email header. Thanks! Randy Most all of what has been previously mentioned I would also recommend. Additionally, I've taken a few photos of some other tools that I absolutely rely upon: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~renner...cs/5C_CBC1.JPG This is a set sometimes referred to as a Collet Block Chuck. It holds 5C collets and I've used it as a poor man's collet chuck by holding a work piece in the CBC then holding the hex CBC in 3 jaw lathe chuck or the four sided CBC in a 4 jaw. I also use it frequently to holds short work pieces in the vise of my 4 X 6 band saw. It's also very handy for indexing a work piece in a mill's vise. To do such things as creating a hex or square section on a work piece. A spanner wrench of some type will be required to tighten/loosen the CBC lock ring but it's easily fabricated. The following photo shows the spanner in use: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~renner...ics/CBC_WS.JPG The following photo depicts a setup I use often to position the mill's spindle directly over the center of a CBC held work piece: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~renner...s/CBC_Use1.JPG For layout work I use a hemaphrodite caliper frequently: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~renner...cs/HermCal.JPG Instead of a combination square's protractor, I find that a universal bevel protractor is more versatile: http://home.worldnet.att.net/~renner...ngPics/UBP.JPG The following photo shows a tool not comercially available but easily made. I apply a 45 degree chamfer on the edges of many of the projects I construct and this tool makes this job easy. HTH ... Rick Renner |
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#28
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article ,
Randy wrote: [ ... ] stuff" is lets me know to what level to compromise to. IE: As a beginner, I may muck up a top notch $$$$ mic, but a less expensive model/brand that has good quality would work, and not hurt so much $$ when stupidity stikes. Or was that Murphy? More likely to be Murphy, if you've spent the bucks for a high-quality one. The worst is when you discover someone using *your* micrometers as C-clamps. (Yes, it *does* happen from time to time.) Other than that -- if your micrometers have carbide anvils, and you use the thimble ratchet or a friction thimble to limit the torque (or you develop a good feel), you will have those micrometers for life. That is what I want, not the cheap import, as I was given a chinese dial caliper some time ago, and it wouldn't repeat a zero every time the jaws were closed. Neither will a *good* one -- unless you run a piece of clean paper between the jaws, lightly close them on the paper, and draw it out, to remove various particles which can keep it from re-zeroing. The same is even more true with micrometers. It doesn't take much to keep a tenths-reading micrometer from repeating. Granted, if there is slop in the gears, and excess friction in the bearings, and perhaps loose gibs on the sliding head, you won't be able to ever get a cheap dial caliper to repeat, even with the most thorough cleaning. But I do have two 6" size dial calipers -- one Chinese (Phase-II) and one Starrett (actually a 0-150mm one, not a 6"), and both seem to be equally repeatable, though the *feel* of the Starrett is markedly superior. And for calipers, they are sensitive to where on the jaws you measure, if you are not being very careful to minimize the force applied. Calipers *bend* -- more so with the full length of the beam in use. Heck, it wouldn't even make a good doorstop. Check it out again with proper cleaning of the jaw faces. That might be all that is wrong. Of course, if there is a tiny bit of swarf in the rack gear, the dial will jump as you pass that, showing *greatly* different values each time around. Even the best of the dial calipers can fall victim to that, too. As one poster said, it was probably one of those poor quality runs. Maybe -- maybe not. [ ... ] the straight edge. Let the dealer talk me into a cheap aluminum one that a lot of other commercial installers were buying. Against my better judgement, I bought it. After trying to cut a straight seam by myself with it, I decided to go back and buy the $60.00 more galvanised steel one like I used to have. This is a case of the wrong material for the job. I can see the knife biting into the aluminum and climbing up on top if you are trying to cut along it. [ ... ] needed. And, the advice on deadblow hammers as well as a granite surface plate is something I never thought of. Auto punches vs manual. Well, I like both, and have both! :-) I have both, and tend to use the manual ones these days, because I am doing more precision layout than before. Before, when I was laying out chassis for component and control mounting holes, there was a lot less precision needed, and the automatic was a lot more convenient -- and it allowed me to use the other hand to place a bucking bar behind the impact point, so I got a proper center-punch mark, instead of a deep dimple with the lighter gauge aluminum chassis. :-) Ebay is one of my favorite haunts, though, generally I prefer to buy books, & hard to find specialty items.. I really like to handle the tools in person before buying. So, please pardon my rambling, And a Really Big Thanks for the Info!!!!!!! I've been putting together my shopping list, and may still have some money left in the bank. For a while, anyway!! Randy One thing to watch for on eBay (other than sellers who have no idea what they are selling. :-) There is a seller who is located in Connecticut, near Hartford, I believe, who keeps putting things up on auction which have been "refurbished" by a quick application of paint, and who takes forever to get around to shipping -- by which time he has likely forgotten what was described as coming with the item in the auction -- if he *ever* ships. It won't do much good to give his real name, as he keeps getting kicked off of eBay and coming back with a new name. The clues to watch for a 1) Descriptions in all one case -- sometimes upper, sometimes lower. 2) *Very* short descriptions -- sometimes to the point of being useless. 3) Terrible spelling. 4) Usually, he is claiming an address somewhere in Connecticut, but has claimed at least one New York address. 5) Auctions frequently have the starting price and the "Buy-Now" price the same -- in the hopes of completing the auction before he gets kicked off again. 6) Tons of auctions (perhaps 200+) set up in a very short time, by someone who has no feedback, and thus is supposedly a very new eBay seller. If in doubt, post the auction number here (or one of the other auctions which he is running at the same time, if you don't want to call attention to the item which you are considering bidding on), and ask if this looks like a "Babbin". There are enough of us here who have seen lots of his auctions so we can usually tell. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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#29
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
In article , DoN. Nichols says...
And for calipers, they are sensitive to where on the jaws you measure, if you are not being very careful to minimize the force applied. Calipers *bend* -- more so with the full length of the beam in use. The other reason that calipers give different readings at different distances from the tips, is that most of the work is done near the tips, and hence most of the wear occurs there. But the zeroing happens where they're tight, near the inside of the jaws. A few thou of wear front to back is not unusual. It won't do much good to give his real name, as he keeps getting kicked off of eBay and coming back with a new name. The clues to watch for a 1) Descriptions in all one case -- sometimes upper, sometimes lower. 2) *Very* short descriptions -- sometimes to the point of being useless. 3) Terrible spelling. 4) Usually, he is claiming an address somewhere in Connecticut, but has claimed at least one New York address. 5) Auctions frequently have the starting price and the "Buy-Now" price the same -- in the hopes of completing the auction before he gets kicked off again. 6) Tons of auctions (perhaps 200+) set up in a very short time, by someone who has no feedback, and thus is supposedly a very new eBay seller. Also seen with Mass. addresses as well on occasion. The auction photos often have blanked out backrounds - photoshopped or whaterver - to hide whatever else is around the item. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#30
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Machinist tools- what should a begginer buy?
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