I have a rebranded Rong Fu 31 (I thinkg) that is hopefully getting off
to a good start. I am open to do/don't suggestions on oiling etc.

Dumb question: for practice, I aligned my vice using a dial indicator.
It was fairly smooth, but not something I would want to do every day.
Should I be concerned about leaving the vice in place for long periods?
I would hate to find rust where there was once a nicely machined table

Is there a trick to mounting an indicator on the spindle? I put it in a
chuck. Is there a better way?

Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?

Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.

One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Reading suggestions are welcome.

Bill

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
link.net...
I have a rebranded Rong Fu 31 (I thinkg) that is hopefully getting off
to a good start. I am open to do/don't suggestions on oiling etc.

Dumb question: for practice, I aligned my vice using a dial indicator.
It was fairly smooth, but not something I would want to do every day.
Should I be concerned about leaving the vice in place for long periods?
I would hate to find rust where there was once a nicely machined table


That's common practice in machine shops, but if you use any kind of water
soluble sprays or coolants, you could find some rust----or often a black
discoloration. As long as you're working with oils and other hydrocarbon
based solvents, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but be somewhat cautious
otherwise. If your environment isn't rusting things now, there's little
reason to expect rust under protected surfaces.

If you do any wood work on the machine (not all that uncommon), make sure
you don't leave any damp chips behind. I've used my metal cutting machines
for that purpose countless times with no problems, but I clean up well
afterwards.


Is there a trick to mounting an indicator on the spindle? I put it in a
chuck. Is there a better way?

Not as far as ease of use. By using a chuck, you have something to grasp to
position the indicator, which is important if you're sweeping in a bore or
the table. You can mount directly in a collet, depending on the hardware
you have available for your indicator, but that leaves you with little to
grasp while you're dialing items where you have to rotate the spindle. Works
fine for a vise or other things that require the table or saddle to be
moved, not the spindle, so choose accordingly.


Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?

If you're familiar with draw filing, that's the way to remove dings on a
table. A single cut file (best not a new one, which is usually quite
aggressive) is placed on the table of the mill and drawn sort of sideways
along the table with light palm pressure on the file. Given the proper
application, it glides over the table with no consequence, but removes
anything that stands above the table. Cast iron is very good about cutting
away easily, unlike steel. If the file traverses the surface smoothly and
doesn't hang up on anything, the table is clean. If anything stands up,
you'll feel it. Just repeat the process until you don't. You'll be able to
see where it was, and how it was removed to flush with the balance of the
table.

Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.

Think ahead, and make sure that once you've established location and have
your dials related to the part, make sure you don't have to move the head.
Know what tools you're going to use, and make sure that the long ones can be
installed and used, as well as the short ones. Where you get into trouble is
using end mills in collets, then changing to a collet mounted drill chuck
and using large, long drills and reamers. You run out of spindle, which is
the chief reason I hate mill drills. On knee mill, you can move and not
lose registration. (Not trying to be rude here)

One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

Unless you intend to stay with the machine for the unforeseen future, or if
you intend to use it for gain, where time is important, I think I'd stick to
collets and not worry about it. One of the negatives of using any kind of
quick change is that you generally add to the length of the spindle, costing
you rigidity unnecessarily, but even worse, valuable space. You'll have
limited height to begin with. I'd strongly recommend you not reduce it any
unless you have good cause.


An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Not in your table! Good machinists don't drill holes in
machines------especially not by choice. As long as you have a method of
locating your part as it relates to the spindle, just make it a habit of
always doing it a particular way. Should you get lost, you can go back and
start over. You'll use your edge finder or a wiggler, or even an
indicator, depending on the setup. That's no different from a hole, which
you'd have to relate to in the same way. Lost in this? Did I not
understand the hole concept? Maybe you have a thought that got past me.
Lets talk about it. If you aren't familiar with typical shop practice,
maybe you can find someone locally that is a machinist, or at least has some
experience so he/she can guide you. Otherwise, it's best to ask for more
information here. Ask specific questions if you're stumped. There's way
too much information to dispense to give answers that you have. It won't
take you long to figure things out with a little guidance from this group of
people. Many are machinists by trade.

Good luck!

Harold

Reading suggestions are welcome.

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

Should I be concerned about leaving the vice in place for long periods?
I would hate to find rust where there was once a nicely machined table

Most people I know leave the vice in place until they need the complete
table area.

Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?

I wouldn't do anything to them. They are highly unlikely to have any
effect on the operation of the mill.


One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

My (old Centec) mill came with a Clarkson chuck. I found it was a real
chore to have to remove it for drilling. I've now got an ER32 system
which can securely hold any diameter from 2-20mm. It can be used to hold
drills as well as milling cutters. Since you mention 'pounds'
somewhere else I assume you are in UK. If so, take a look at RDG Tools'
website for reasonably priced ER sets. http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/

An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of drilling
a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working relative to it.

Although pricey, consider installing a DRO system. Trying to compensate
for backlash on a mill can quickly destroy any pleasure derived from
making chips. If you take that route, don't skimp and settle for a
2-axis system - you will soon wish you had 3. I listened to the advice
of several model engineer friends, and they were definitely right.


--

Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

....
If you're familiar with draw filing, that's the way to remove dings on a
table. A single cut file (best not a new one, which is usually quite
aggressive) is placed on the table of the mill and drawn sort of sideways
along the table with light palm pressure on the file. Given the proper
application, it glides over the table with no consequence, but removes
anything that stands above the table. Cast iron is very good about
cutting
away easily, unlike steel. If the file traverses the surface smoothly
and
doesn't hang up on anything, the table is clean. If anything stands up,
you'll feel it. Just repeat the process until you don't. You'll be able
to
see where it was, and how it was removed to flush with the balance of the
table.
....

Harold,
I routinely do just this thing. Except, oil the table and use a stone.
Dropping items on the cast surface or clamping steel directly to the table
will raise a very small dimple. The stone removes them nicely.

Karl

You can make a key that fits the table slot and mill a shallow groove
in the underside of the vise for it.

The RF-31's table slots had been cut at a slight angle to the X axis. I
fitted the key to the table first and milled its top edges slightly
narrower to make them parallel to the table motion. Then I clamped a
piece of ground stock to the table, indicated and adjusted it true,
clamped the vise onto it upside down and milled a slot to fit the key
very snugly.

jw

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:21:21 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:


An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Reading suggestions are welcome.

Bill

Congrats on the new tool

I have a RF45 clone and I disassemble it completly and cleaned it
after uncrateing it.

Got *lots* of grit n grime out of the nooks n crannies that the
factory includes--- at no extra charge.

.. In regards to losing the register some have suggested using a small
inexpensive laser mounted on the head to relocate after moving the
head. Not sure if its accurate enough..

The only modification I plan on is to replace the 1ph motor with a
3ph and a VFD for better speed selection.
I chose a power feed over a dro for a option but will add a dro
later.

The tooling requirements seem to be nearly endless.
I have an equal amount of $ in tooling as I spent on the basic
machine. BTW I really enjoy mine and it does very nice work.
If I upgrade to a bigger mill it will be a horizontal..

There is a yahoo milldrill group
that might be a source of info..

DE

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Couple of things: The "loss of center" when moving the head vertically, is
one of the major drawbacks of a mill-drill. Reasonable location can be
re-established via good layout lines and/or an edge finder from reference
edge(s). Get a Blake, or clone, co-axial indicator for accurate re-location
of critical holes, or location from a datum hole if you want to use one.
With a little practice you will forget about the loss of center problem. A
lot of it can be overcome by carefully predicting maximum tool height
required for all tools used (vertical clearance) for any specific job.

Don't bother changing out the motor to 3-phase and getting a VFD. IMO, it's
not worth the expense. Moving belts on pulleys isn't that big a chore;
besides it gives you good experience in estimating speeds and feeds for
various materials. Save your money for R-8 tooling for the mill-drill and
the "Bridgie-clone" in your future.

FWIW, I have both. Usu. the old mill-drill is relegated to drill press work
but occasionally I use it for more critical stuff. Recently, I made a pair
of steam engine eccentric straps on the mill-drill. I sort of did it as an
exercise to see if I "still had it" on the mill-drill. It worked out OK
with some belt changes and co-axial centering required but overall it was a
bit clunky compared to my Bridgie. That's because I am more used to the big
mill with all its conveniences. The mill-drill still has a place in my
shop. You have some great experiences coming up with your mill-drill.
Consider it as affording you some apprentice training before you get a
full-featured mill. Take your time; concentrate on accurate layouts; take
pleasure in the fact you have a real milling machine at a very reasonable
price.

Bob Swinney
"DE" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:21:21 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:


An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Reading suggestions are welcome.

Bill

Congrats on the new tool

I have a RF45 clone and I disassemble it completly and cleaned it
after uncrateing it.

Got *lots* of grit n grime out of the nooks n crannies that the
factory includes--- at no extra charge.

. In regards to losing the register some have suggested using a small
inexpensive laser mounted on the head to relocate after moving the
head. Not sure if its accurate enough..

The only modification I plan on is to replace the 1ph motor with a
3ph and a VFD for better speed selection.
I chose a power feed over a dro for a option but will add a dro
later.

The tooling requirements seem to be nearly endless.
I have an equal amount of $ in tooling as I spent on the basic
machine. BTW I really enjoy mine and it does very nice work.
If I upgrade to a bigger mill it will be a horizontal..

There is a yahoo milldrill group
that might be a source of info..

DE

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Don't bother changing out the motor to 3-phase and getting a VFD. IMO, it's
not worth the expense. Moving belts on pulleys isn't that big a chore;

I disagree. The 2hp motor that came on my Jet mill drill was a real POS.
I went through three of them before giving up and buying a leeson motor.
THe single phase motor makes the whole machine jump when it starts.
The VFD starts very smooth. I also could not get a nice finish with
the single phase motor. This machine can now mill a slot with a nice
finish using the side of the endmill.

To protect your nice new table, get some black floor runner from the
hardware store and cut some pieces that cover the table next to the
vise. This prevents dings when you drop something and might even save
the corner of an endmill if you drop it. It also provides a nice place
to put thing and prevents them from going into the T slots.

chuck

All good suggestions -- heed the advice about getting a 3-axis DRO as it
makes all the difference. Mitutoyo sells a DRO bundle (I bought mine
through J&L) for 8x30 machines that costs about $900 when it's on sale.
I know that sounds like a lot for a mill-drill, but having to deal with
the tiny dials and backlash costs something too - your time.

Buy a jug of real way oil (Mobil Vactra #2 or equivalent) to lube the
ways and lead screws. Regular oils don't stay in place. If you are
worried about rust, mix up some WD-40 and LPS-3 in a 4:1 ratio, and
spray it on all of the metal surfaces after you clean up or before you
mount the vise. And speaking of vises, don't even think about getting
one of those $99 Chinese boat anchors. Buy a real Kurt vise and you will
thank yourself every time it's used.

Note that the cost of all these suggestions now totals more than you
probably spent on the machine itself, and you haven't even started on
tooling yet. Welcome to the world of machining!

Bill Schwab wrote:
I have a rebranded Rong Fu 31 (I thinkg) that is hopefully getting off
to a good start. I am open to do/don't suggestions on oiling etc.

Dumb question: for practice, I aligned my vice using a dial indicator.
It was fairly smooth, but not something I would want to do every day.
Should I be concerned about leaving the vice in place for long periods?
I would hate to find rust where there was once a nicely machined table

Is there a trick to mounting an indicator on the spindle? I put it in a
chuck. Is there a better way?

Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?

Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.

One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of drilling
a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working relative to it.

Reading suggestions are welcome.

Bill

Chuck sez:
"I also could not get a nice finish with the single phase motor.. . . "

Musta been something else wrong as well. Come to think of it, I did replace
the original set of belts with a "USA made" set. (Thanks to Grant Erwin for
the suggestion) That helped a great deal with the vibration problem. Hard
to imagine you went through 3 motors, though. Maybe it was a "Jet" thing!
My mill-drill is an old one, Wrong-fu, I think. I can not imagine any
problems such as you mention that could be caused by only the motor. Anyway,
glad to hear all is well with VFD power now. At the least, you have to
think it is OK after spending all the bux on a VFD!

Bob Swinney

"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...
Don't bother changing out the motor to 3-phase and getting a VFD. IMO,
it's
not worth the expense. Moving belts on pulleys isn't that big a chore;

I disagree. The 2hp motor that came on my Jet mill drill was a real POS.
I went through three of them before giving up and buying a leeson motor.
THe single phase motor makes the whole machine jump when it starts.
The VFD starts very smooth. This machine can now mill a slot with a nice
finish using the side of the endmill.

To protect your nice new table, get some black floor runner from the
hardware store and cut some pieces that cover the table next to the
vise. This prevents dings when you drop something and might even save
the corner of an endmill if you drop it. It also provides a nice place
to put thing and prevents them from going into the T slots.

chuck

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:39:18 -0500, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Couple of things: The "loss of center" when moving the head vertically, is
one of the major drawbacks of a mill-drill. Reasonable location can be
re-established via good layout lines and/or an edge finder from reference
edge(s). Get a Blake, or clone, co-axial indicator for accurate re-location
of critical holes, or location from a datum hole if you want to use one.
With a little practice you will forget about the loss of center problem. A
lot of it can be overcome by carefully predicting maximum tool height
required for all tools used (vertical clearance) for any specific job.

The RF45 is the dovetail column with a gear head, no loss of
position when raising the head, pretty solidy constructed. The column
was aligned dead nuts on when I indicated it, a pleasant surprise.

Don't bother changing out the motor to 3-phase and getting a VFD. IMO, it's
not worth the expense. Moving belts on pulleys isn't that big a chore;
besides it gives you good experience in estimating speeds and feeds for
various materials. Save your money for R-8 tooling for the mill-drill and
the "Bridgie-clone" in your future.

The gear head has a few speed gaps that need filling, the origional
motor runs nice but sometimes a little lower/higher speed would
be nice. It's R8 tooled so I'm good there, I live in a remote
area with no used machine tools. The shipping for a bare used
machine was more that I paid for my free freight enco RF45 clone .So
I elected to use the difference for tooling.


FWIW, I have both. Usu. the old mill-drill is relegated to drill press work
but occasionally I use it for more critical stuff. Recently, I made a pair
of steam engine eccentric straps on the mill-drill. I sort of did it as an
exercise to see if I "still had it" on the mill-drill. It worked out OK
with some belt changes and co-axial centering required but overall it was a
bit clunky compared to my Bridgie. That's because I am more used to the big
mill with all its conveniences. The mill-drill still has a place in my
shop. You have some great experiences coming up with your mill-drill.
Consider it as affording you some apprentice training before you get a
full-featured mill. Take your time; concentrate on accurate layouts; take
pleasure in the fact you have a real milling machine at a very reasonable
price.


I'm looking forward to winter and some extended chipmaking time.
I schooled on big industial iron 30 years ago, I must have had a good
instructor as everything has come back with litte reference to my
notes, We didn't have any dro's there, I was taught to use a dial
indicator for high tolerance positioning. I never have used a dro.

DE



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think it is OK after spending all the bux on a VFD!

VFDs really are not that expensive. About 200 bucks for a new Teco.
The convenience of variable speed and the soft start are totally
worth it. I have several in my shop now and will probalby get
another one for my Clausing Horizontal Mill.

I am totally convinced that a 3 phase motor runnning on VFD
makes much smoother power than a single phase motor. If you
set up the motor parameters correctly, it will protect things
better than a plain overload too. If I start my rockwell mill
in back gear without disengaging direct drive, it grunts a bit
and stops. I suspect it would shread the tiny drive belts if
I was using a RPC. If I turn the speed way down and stick a
drill bit, the VFD kicks out instantly.

disclaimer. My mind is already made up; Don't confuse me with facts!

chuck

The only fact you need to be convinced of is:

If you have a proper RPC, set up and trimmed out ala, "Fitch", any equipment
running on it will not notice whether the "power" comes from genuine 3-phase
or from a RPC. I have oscillograms of equipment running under load from a
RPC and commercial 3-phase power. You can't tell them apart.

Bob Swinney
"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...
think it is OK after spending all the bux on a VFD!

VFDs really are not that expensive. About 200 bucks for a new Teco.
The convenience of variable speed and the soft start are totally
worth it. I have several in my shop now and will probalby get
another one for my Clausing Horizontal Mill.

I am totally convinced that a 3 phase motor runnning on VFD
makes much smoother power than a single phase motor. If you
set up the motor parameters correctly, it will protect things
better than a plain overload too. If I start my rockwell mill
in back gear without disengaging direct drive, it grunts a bit
and stops. I suspect it would shread the tiny drive belts if
I was using a RPC. If I turn the speed way down and stick a
drill bit, the VFD kicks out instantly.

disclaimer. My mind is already made up; Don't confuse me with facts!

chuck

Harold,

If you do any wood work on the machine (not all that uncommon), make sure
you don't leave any damp chips behind. I've used my metal cutting machines
for that purpose countless times with no problems, but I clean up well
afterwards.

The plan is for lots of woodwork in addition to simple electronics
fabrication and, over time, lots of Al plates with tab A one side and
slot B on the other.

Is there such a thing as a preferred end mill for mortising?


Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?


If you're familiar with draw filing, that's the way to remove dings on a
table. A single cut file (best not a new one, which is usually quite
aggressive) is placed on the table of the mill and drawn sort of sideways
along the table with light palm pressure on the file. Given the proper
application, it glides over the table with no consequence, but removes
anything that stands above the table. Cast iron is very good about cutting
away easily, unlike steel. If the file traverses the surface smoothly and
doesn't hang up on anything, the table is clean. If anything stands up,
you'll feel it. Just repeat the process until you don't. You'll be able to
see where it was, and how it was removed to flush with the balance of the
table.

My first attempts will be on some test pieces vs. the table, but that
sounds like a plan. With some luck, my table saw might have a blemish
in a harmless location.


Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.


Think ahead, and make sure that once you've established location and have
your dials related to the part, make sure you don't have to move the head.
Know what tools you're going to use, and make sure that the long ones can be
installed and used, as well as the short ones. Where you get into trouble is
using end mills in collets, then changing to a collet mounted drill chuck
and using large, long drills and reamers. You run out of spindle, which is
the chief reason I hate mill drills. On knee mill, you can move and not
lose registration. (Not trying to be rude here)

No offense taken. The whole time I was wrestling the mill over the 30
ft from my driveway to its current location, I was feeling pretty good
that I did not go for the knee mill, at least not right away - not that
I would even attempt to move one myself.




One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?


Unless you intend to stay with the machine for the unforeseen future, or if
you intend to use it for gain, where time is important, I think I'd stick to
collets and not worry about it. One of the negatives of using any kind of
quick change is that you generally add to the length of the spindle, costing
you rigidity unnecessarily, but even worse, valuable space. You'll have
limited height to begin with. I'd strongly recommend you not reduce it any
unless you have good cause.

I suspect that where it matters, I will have height to burn because the
parts will be small. But I could be in for a surpise.


An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.


Not in your table! Good machinists don't drill holes in
machines------especially not by choice.

I've never knowingly drilled a hole in a machine (I once discovered one
in a shared vice and had to wonder) and have no plans to do so. Rest
assured I mean a reference hole in the work piece.


As long as you have a method of
locating your part as it relates to the spindle, just make it a habit of
always doing it a particular way. Should you get lost, you can go back and
start over. You'll use your edge finder or a wiggler, or even an
indicator, depending on the setup. That's no different from a hole, which
you'd have to relate to in the same way. Lost in this? Did I not
understand the hole concept? Maybe you have a thought that got past me.

Only the bit about drilling a hole in the table I'm following fairly
well, but am not sure about using a dial indicator to locate relative to
the part. It sounds like a good way to go. In studying the mill, I
have been getting ideas of making some kind of clamp to grab the
head/spindle/quill/column to hold an indicator. Is it easier than that?

The indicator could be on the table, but how would I create or find a
good target on the spindle? There are very few flat surfaces up there,
and I fear the curvature would make for large errors.

So far, I'm even a little nervous about even having room to change
collets over a work piece. That might complicate using an edge finder.
Milling with the spindle significantly extended probably has a role
in the solution.



Lets talk about it. If you aren't familiar with typical shop practice,
maybe you can find someone locally that is a machinist, or at least has some
experience so he/she can guide you. Otherwise, it's best to ask for more
information here. Ask specific questions if you're stumped. There's way
too much information to dispense to give answers that you have. It won't
take you long to figure things out with a little guidance from this group of
people. Many are machinists by trade.

I'm starting to figure out the latter. Actually, I am overdue to visit
the gentleman who taught me the little I know.

Thanks!!!!

Bill

"Karl Townsend" remove .NOT to reply wrote
in message ink.net...
...
If you're familiar with draw filing, that's the way to remove dings on a
table. A single cut file (best not a new one, which is usually quite
aggressive) is placed on the table of the mill and drawn sort of
sideways
along the table with light palm pressure on the file. Given the proper
application, it glides over the table with no consequence, but removes
anything that stands above the table. Cast iron is very good about
cutting
away easily, unlike steel. If the file traverses the surface smoothly
and
doesn't hang up on anything, the table is clean. If anything stands up,
you'll feel it. Just repeat the process until you don't. You'll be
able
to
see where it was, and how it was removed to flush with the balance of
the
table.
...

Harold,
I routinely do just this thing. Except, oil the table and use a stone.
Dropping items on the cast surface or clamping steel directly to the table
will raise a very small dimple. The stone removes them nicely.

Karl

As well as a miniscule portion of the table that was in good condition. It's
important that the file used not be new, which I mentioned. A slightly
dull file will remove any highs, but otherwise leave the table untouched.
If, by chance, it's prone to cutting, the file is too sharp. A stone
doesn't do that, although I'd agree that what is removed is miniscule.
Trouble is, if you're one of those neurotic types that is constantly
dressing the table, the affect over a period of time is detrimental, due in
part to dressing the area where one tends to concentrate use far more than,
say, the ends of the table. . The only place I ever touch a surface with a
stone is if I drop something on my chromed ways---at which time I'll
generally use one made of a silicon carbide, preferred for it's greater
hardness.

Best policy here is to wipe the table with your bare hand. Anything
standing up is generally apparent by feel. Dress only when necessary,
especially if a stone is applied.

Harold

"DE" wrote in message
news snip---

I'm looking forward to winter and some extended chipmaking time.
I schooled on big industial iron 30 years ago, I must have had a good
instructor as everything has come back with litte reference to my
notes, We didn't have any dro's there, I was taught to use a dial
indicator for high tolerance positioning. I never have used a dro.

DE

DRO's are an incredible device, but my honest opinion is they cheat the user
out of a proper learning experience. Having been trained as a machinist
in the late 50's, no such devices were at our disposal. I learned how to
run machines by applying skill------skill that will always be with you, much
the same as hand grinding HSS tool bits. When you learn to machine using
such devices as insert carbide and positioning devices, you tend to short
circuit that portion of your learning, which often leads to a lack of
knowledge needed in other operations. It's something that has the
potential to haunt you endlessly.

Backlash is a non-issue. The only time it matters is if you climb mill, and
the machine is too loose, or when you don't understand how to work with it,
which one often doesn't when a DRO is used.

Having worked in the trade for years, I can say, with total honesty, what
scrap I've made isn't attributed to backlash---it's from making other stupid
mistakes.

I'm proud to say, I have NEVER used a DRO, and I've done a ton of work with
tolerance restricted to a thou in many instances. A good portion of my work
was building tools.

Did I mention all my work was subject to proper inspection by a an
independent source? I couldn't fake it.

Harold

Gary,

I wouldn't do anything to them. They are highly unlikely to have any
effect on the operation of the mill.

I tend to agree, but eventually I will need to clamp something over
them. Harold's draw filing idea is well taken, but I will blend the two
and get some practice first.

Having read two thoughtful responses I am willing to reveal the _real_
reason I asked: I wanted to see whether you agree that is largely
ignorable. The bandsaw I bought with the mill, that's another matter;
what a disaster I can't talk about it right now


One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can
some kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right
gizmo (or refute the idea)?

My (old Centec) mill came with a Clarkson chuck. I found it was a real
chore to have to remove it for drilling. I've now got an ER32 system
which can securely hold any diameter from 2-20mm. It can be used to hold
drills as well as milling cutters. Since you mention 'pounds'
somewhere else I assume you are in UK.

I have many friends on that side of the pond, but I am a few generations
away from a west-bound boat to the USA. Hopefully a search will reveal
that I mentioned pounds in the context of weight.


If so, take a look at RDG Tools'
website for reasonably priced ER sets. http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/

Found it. Sounds like $270 US or so, which I am more than willing to
consider, either from them (they apparently ship anywhere) or elsewhere.
Amazon's offerings include the "Hertel HR8ER32162 Er32 R8 1-5/8 Proj L
Collet Chuck". Somehow it looks like it's missing the collets
themselves, which probably explains the price difference.


An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines
will probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Although pricey, consider installing a DRO system. Trying to compensate
for backlash on a mill can quickly destroy any pleasure derived from
making chips. If you take that route, don't skimp and settle for a
2-axis system - you will soon wish you had 3. I listened to the advice
of several model engineer friends, and they were definitely right.

Ok, I will admit that when I first read this I thought you were giving
me a bad steer, but being overwhelmed with the helpfullness of this
group, I figured it couldn't hurt to look. So are we talking pricey as
in $700 US? I agree that is a lot of money, but considerably less than
I expected.

The URL I have is

http://www.star-techno.com/order.htm

Any horror stories ordering from them? I won't be doing this in the
next week or so (trying to convince myself, not you).

I would argue that if I can't solve the registration problem (which I
fully expect to do within my tolerances, in both thousands of an inch
and patience), then a DRO would tell me little beyond the location of
the table. No offense intended gang: I am interested in your thoughts
on the matter.

Thanks for the advice; I will probably end up with a DRO. I think I
will take to life with a mill/drill, but figure I should use it for a
while before spending a lot more money on it. If I am "forced" to get a
knee mill, I'll wish I had saved the money for movers.

Besides, some dial reading will do me some good; it's been a long time.

Bill

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"DE" wrote in message
news snip---

I'm looking forward to winter and some extended chipmaking time.
I schooled on big industial iron 30 years ago, I must have had a good
instructor as everything has come back with litte reference to my
notes, We didn't have any dro's there, I was taught to use a dial
indicator for high tolerance positioning. I never have used a dro.

DE

DRO's are an incredible device, but my honest opinion is they cheat the
user
out of a proper learning experience. Having been trained as a machinist
in the late 50's, no such devices were at our disposal. I learned how to
run machines by applying skill------skill that will always be with you,
much
the same as hand grinding HSS tool bits. When you learn to machine
using
such devices as insert carbide and positioning devices, you tend to short
circuit that portion of your learning, which often leads to a lack of
knowledge needed in other operations. It's something that has the
potential to haunt you endlessly.

Backlash is a non-issue. The only time it matters is if you climb mill,
and
the machine is too loose, or when you don't understand how to work with
it,
which one often doesn't when a DRO is used.

Having worked in the trade for years, I can say, with total honesty, what
scrap I've made isn't attributed to backlash---it's from making other
stupid
mistakes.

I'm proud to say, I have NEVER used a DRO, and I've done a ton of work
with
tolerance restricted to a thou in many instances. A good portion of my
work
was building tools.

Did I mention all my work was subject to proper inspection by a an
independent source? I couldn't fake it.

Harold

Congrats on the new tool

Thanks!


I have a RF45 clone and I disassemble it completly and cleaned it
after uncrateing it.

Got *lots* of grit n grime out of the nooks n crannies that the
factory includes--- at no extra charge.

. In regards to losing the register some have suggested using a small
inexpensive laser mounted on the head to relocate after moving the
head. Not sure if its accurate enough..

With a long enough travel (perhaps involving mirrors) it could be very
accurate provided the "stationary parts" are indeed stationary.



The only modification I plan on is to replace the 1ph motor with a
3ph and a VFD for better speed selection.

Interesting. I don't mind the belts except for one thing. I have it
set up just below the point that requires me to tweak both belts to get
more speed.



I chose a power feed over a dro for a option but will add a dro
later.

I bought the feed with it. The longitudinal travel is a bit long to be
without it. Two small gripes: it needs to come off to reach the oil
port on the left side (seems they could have drilled a hole for that???)
and manual operation is a little uncomfortable with it present, even off
and in neutral. Am I missing something on the latter?


The tooling requirements seem to be nearly endless.
I have an equal amount of $ in tooling as I spent on the basic
machine.

That sounds about right.


BTW I really enjoy mine and it does very nice work.
If I upgrade to a bigger mill it will be a horizontal..

I'll bite: why? I learned (if you want to call it that) on a vertical
so I might simply be biased.


There is a yahoo milldrill group
that might be a source of info..

It appears to be, but every time I try to join a Yahoo group, I get
static. As an aside I belong to one Yahoo group, and my spam when up by
orders of magnitude shortly after taking that step.

Bill


--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.

There DE! You heard it from the horse's, errrr, welll mouth.G Thanx
Harold. The great unwashed and inexperienced set can learn much from old
heads like you. I am happy to hear you never used a DRO and still did
tool-grade work. That statement presages a vast amount of honesty and no
small amount of pride, I'm sure. We should all have your experience but
'taint no way, no how, not in this lifetime! So, Harold, now that we are on
the soapbox, give us your take on those that purport to jump right into CNC
with absolutely no manual experience. I suspect they are mostly computer
programmers (or less) that believe all they peck out on a keyboard can be
easily done in the physical world.

Bob Swinney
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"DE" wrote in message
news snip---

I'm looking forward to winter and some extended chipmaking time.
I schooled on big industial iron 30 years ago, I must have had a good
instructor as everything has come back with litte reference to my
notes, We didn't have any dro's there, I was taught to use a dial
indicator for high tolerance positioning. I never have used a dro.

DE

DRO's are an incredible device, but my honest opinion is they cheat the
user
out of a proper learning experience. Having been trained as a machinist
in the late 50's, no such devices were at our disposal. I learned how to
run machines by applying skill------skill that will always be with you,
much
the same as hand grinding HSS tool bits. When you learn to machine
using
such devices as insert carbide and positioning devices, you tend to short
circuit that portion of your learning, which often leads to a lack of
knowledge needed in other operations. It's something that has the
potential to haunt you endlessly.

Backlash is a non-issue. The only time it matters is if you climb mill,
and
the machine is too loose, or when you don't understand how to work with
it,
which one often doesn't when a DRO is used.

Having worked in the trade for years, I can say, with total honesty, what
scrap I've made isn't attributed to backlash---it's from making other
stupid
mistakes.

I'm proud to say, I have NEVER used a DRO, and I've done a ton of work
with
tolerance restricted to a thou in many instances. A good portion of my
work
was building tools.

Did I mention all my work was subject to proper inspection by a an
independent source? I couldn't fake it.

Harold

Chuck,

To protect your nice new table, get some black floor runner from the
hardware store and cut some pieces that cover the table next to the
vise. This prevents dings when you drop something and might even save
the corner of an endmill if you drop it. It also provides a nice place
to put thing and prevents them from going into the T slots.

Good idea - thanks!

Bill

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
link.net...
Harold,

If you do any wood work on the machine (not all that uncommon), make
sure
you don't leave any damp chips behind. I've used my metal cutting
machines
for that purpose countless times with no problems, but I clean up well
afterwards.

The plan is for lots of woodwork in addition to simple electronics
fabrication and, over time, lots of Al plates with tab A one side and
slot B on the other.

Is there such a thing as a preferred end mill for mortising?

Chuckle! Mortising? If you could see my red face (embarrassment), maybe
you'd understand.

I hate wood work, and I know almost nothing about it. I'm not sure I know
what a mortise is. The wood work I've done is for pattern making, and I
work like a machinist, not a wood worker.

End mills are available in a huge array of configurations, starting with
stub models that are intended for slotting, right up to the long ones (dies
sinks) intended for milling large faces or deep pockets. I think the best
advice I could offer is to buy that which best serves your purpose, and
restrict their use to wood alone. Once you've run a metal cutting tool on
metal, that fine edge you need for machining wood without splintering is
gone. Carbide end mills are now cheaper to buy than HSS, something I am
still struggling with. It goes without saying, they'll serve you better
than HSS will in the long run. Choose 2 flute cutters for wood, not 3 or
more. Run them flat out---even if they're HSS. You won't be over driving
them.

If you have a choice, carbide should be a C2 grade, best for wear
resistance, and the choice for almost all non-ferrous use. If they're the
newer carbide (micrograin), you may not have a choice, but anything you get
will perform quite well, especially in wood. Look at machining wood much
the same as machining aluminum. Greater chip relief is desired, as well as
more generous cutting reliefs and rake angles. HSS end mills are available
with grinds for aluminum, and they are generally marked clearly on the
shanks if they are. They have greater relief angles, and often polished
flutes, so they are better suited for wood than would be steel cutting
tools.



Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?


If you're familiar with draw filing, that's the way to remove dings on a
table. A single cut file (best not a new one, which is usually quite
aggressive) is placed on the table of the mill and drawn sort of
sideways
along the table with light palm pressure on the file. Given the proper
application, it glides over the table with no consequence, but removes
anything that stands above the table. Cast iron is very good about
cutting
away easily, unlike steel. If the file traverses the surface smoothly
and
doesn't hang up on anything, the table is clean. If anything stands up,
you'll feel it. Just repeat the process until you don't. You'll be
able to
see where it was, and how it was removed to flush with the balance of
the
table.

My first attempts will be on some test pieces vs. the table, but that
sounds like a plan. With some luck, my table saw might have a blemish
in a harmless location.

Key is the file, which must not cut aggressively. I've posted more comments
on this addressed to Karl. I really don't recommend a stone, although it
certainly can do the job, albeit with a caveat.


Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.


Think ahead, and make sure that once you've established location and
have
your dials related to the part, make sure you don't have to move the
head.
Know what tools you're going to use, and make sure that the long ones
can be
installed and used, as well as the short ones. Where you get into
trouble is
using end mills in collets, then changing to a collet mounted drill
chuck
and using large, long drills and reamers. You run out of spindle,
which is
the chief reason I hate mill drills. On knee mill, you can move and
not
lose registration. (Not trying to be rude here)

No offense taken. The whole time I was wrestling the mill over the 30
ft from my driveway to its current location, I was feeling pretty good
that I did not go for the knee mill, at least not right away - not that
I would even attempt to move one myself.

Moving such things isn't a problem if you incorporate some pipe (and it's on
concrete). Once you have a machine on a few pieces of pipe, assuming you
have concrete as a floor, you can move it anywhere you desire, usually
without assistance. You have to keep juggling the pipe as it moves under
the rolling machine, so having extra hands can be useful, but not necessary.
You can move a machine that weighs tons by that method.


One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?


Unless you intend to stay with the machine for the unforeseen future,
or if
you intend to use it for gain, where time is important, I think I'd
stick to
collets and not worry about it. One of the negatives of using any
kind of
quick change is that you generally add to the length of the spindle,
costing
you rigidity unnecessarily, but even worse, valuable space. You'll
have
limited height to begin with. I'd strongly recommend you not reduce it
any
unless you have good cause.

I suspect that where it matters, I will have height to burn because the
parts will be small. But I could be in for a surpise.

Yep. All depends on the work at hand. I don't care how large one's
machine may be, a job always comes along that won't fit. Murphy's law!
Still, in general, I understand your comments and agree. Sounds like
you've given this some good thought before jumping.



An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.


Not in your table! Good machinists don't drill holes in
machines------especially not by choice.

I've never knowingly drilled a hole in a machine (I once discovered one
in a shared vice and had to wonder) and have no plans to do so. Rest
assured I mean a reference hole in the work piece.

Cool! You do understand! g

You don't really need that reference hole, not as long as you have some
fixed datum points as I suggested. If you had to make parts to print,
you'd understand that you're not always at liberty to stab in a tooling
hole, so you learn to work from surfaces that are available to you. In
keeping with that thought, when you do multiple pieces, it's really nice to
hold them identical in size (deduct from that, *on size*, not from one end
of the tolerance to the other), even when it doesn't matter. That way you
can use any edge as a reference point, a situation that often arises.
That's all a part of the things you learn as you progress in the trade.
Might not make much sense to a beginner, but it will the first time you
encounter a problem that can't be otherwise solved. I have the T shirt on
that one.




As long as you have a method of
locating your part as it relates to the spindle, just make it a habit of
always doing it a particular way. Should you get lost, you can go back
and
start over. You'll use your edge finder or a wiggler, or even an
indicator, depending on the setup. That's no different from a hole,
which
you'd have to relate to in the same way. Lost in this? Did I not
understand the hole concept? Maybe you have a thought that got past
me.

Only the bit about drilling a hole in the table I'm following fairly
well, but am not sure about using a dial indicator to locate relative to
the part. It sounds like a good way to go. In studying the mill, I
have been getting ideas of making some kind of clamp to grab the
head/spindle/quill/column to hold an indicator. Is it easier than that?

Oh yeah! An indicator held by anything but the spindle won't help you make
setups as they relate to the spindle. You can find center of anything that
you can span using an indicator. Even square or irregular stuff. Hex,
octagon, etc. You can locate dead center of a shaft, or your vise, and do
it reliably. Using the drill chuck, as you've already suggested, you
sweep sides of items, locating the low point, then make them identical @ 180
degree intervals---which often necessitates moving the indicator off the
part by raising the quill so you can index to the opposite side. It's like
sweeping a bore, but working on the opposite face. Get creative. There's
really no rules on how you can use your DTI---and it doesn't matter if you
introduce error by offsetting the probe-----not as long as you're making
comparative readings, one against the other. You don't care if the reading
has any particular value, you're just trying to get surfaces to read the
same. Center.


The indicator could be on the table, but how would I create or find a
good target on the spindle? There are very few flat surfaces up there,
and I fear the curvature would make for large errors.

See above. You work *from* the spindle.

So far, I'm even a little nervous about even having room to change
collets over a work piece. That might complicate using an edge finder.
Milling with the spindle significantly extended probably has a role
in the solution.

In wood, or aluminum, that's likely to be fine, but keep your quill as short
as possible at all times. That keeps the machine in the most rigid
posture. Being a mill/drill, you'll have to compromise on that, but it's
not likely to be a big deal unless you use some large cutters, or take some
unreasonable cuts. Non issue in wood.



Lets talk about it. If you aren't familiar with typical shop practice,
maybe you can find someone locally that is a machinist, or at least has
some
experience so he/she can guide you. Otherwise, it's best to ask for more
information here. Ask specific questions if you're stumped. There's
way
too much information to dispense to give answers that you have. It
won't
take you long to figure things out with a little guidance from this
group of
people. Many are machinists by trade.

I'm starting to figure out the latter. Actually, I am overdue to visit
the gentleman who taught me the little I know.

Thanks!!!!

Bill

Welcome! Hope some of my ravings help. Do rely on others, especially if
they're skilled. Learning from self taught people can have its own set of
problems, depending on where they got their information. Learning how to
do something stupid from someone that does it that way doesn't make it
right, or good. At first, it might be hard to differentiate those that know
from those that don't, but your experiences will help you sort them out.

Harold

Tim,

All good suggestions -- heed the advice about getting a 3-axis DRO as it
makes all the difference. Mitutoyo sells a DRO bundle (I bought mine
through J&L) for 8x30 machines that costs about $900 when it's on sale.
I know that sounds like a lot for a mill-drill, but having to deal with
the tiny dials and backlash costs something too - your time.

It is cheaper than I expected, and I will proably get one some day.


Buy a jug of real way oil (Mobil Vactra #2 or equivalent) to lube the
ways and lead screws. Regular oils don't stay in place.

That explains the drops. At least it's dripping vs. running dry. How
does one know when to stop pumping? I sometimes wonder whether the
ports are filled or I'm missing the target. What is the correct tool to
use with the ports?


If you are
worried about rust, mix up some WD-40 and LPS-3 in a 4:1 ratio, and
spray it on all of the metal surfaces after you clean up or before you
mount the vise. And speaking of vises, don't even think about getting
one of those $99 Chinese boat anchors. Buy a real Kurt vise and you will
thank yourself every time it's used.

The mill came with a paper weight shaped like a vice. I forget what I
bought with it (went with the recommendation), but it definitely feels
like a real vice.


Bill

There are those than can do things and then there are those that .... Yahoo!

Bob Swinney
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
ink.net...
Congrats on the new tool

Thanks!


I have a RF45 clone and I disassemble it completly and cleaned it
after uncrateing it.

Got *lots* of grit n grime out of the nooks n crannies that the
factory includes--- at no extra charge.

. In regards to losing the register some have suggested using a small
inexpensive laser mounted on the head to relocate after moving the
head. Not sure if its accurate enough..

With a long enough travel (perhaps involving mirrors) it could be very
accurate provided the "stationary parts" are indeed stationary.



The only modification I plan on is to replace the 1ph motor with a
3ph and a VFD for better speed selection.

Interesting. I don't mind the belts except for one thing. I have it set
up just below the point that requires me to tweak both belts to get more
speed.



I chose a power feed over a dro for a option but will add a dro
later.

I bought the feed with it. The longitudinal travel is a bit long to be
without it. Two small gripes: it needs to come off to reach the oil port
on the left side (seems they could have drilled a hole for that???) and
manual operation is a little uncomfortable with it present, even off and
in neutral. Am I missing something on the latter?


The tooling requirements seem to be nearly endless.
I have an equal amount of $ in tooling as I spent on the basic
machine.

That sounds about right.


BTW I really enjoy mine and it does very nice work.
If I upgrade to a bigger mill it will be a horizontal..

I'll bite: why? I learned (if you want to call it that) on a vertical so
I might simply be biased.


There is a yahoo milldrill group that might be a source of info..

It appears to be, but every time I try to join a Yahoo group, I get
static. As an aside I belong to one Yahoo group, and my spam when up by
orders of magnitude shortly after taking that step.

Bill


--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"DE" wrote in message
news snip---

I'm looking forward to winter and some extended chipmaking time.
I schooled on big industial iron 30 years ago, I must have had a good
instructor as everything has come back with litte reference to my
notes, We didn't have any dro's there, I was taught to use a dial
indicator for high tolerance positioning. I never have used a dro.

DE


DRO's are an incredible device, but my honest opinion is they cheat the user
out of a proper learning experience. Having been trained as a machinist
in the late 50's, no such devices were at our disposal. I learned how to
run machines by applying skill------skill that will always be with you, much
the same as hand grinding HSS tool bits. When you learn to machine using
such devices as insert carbide and positioning devices, you tend to short
circuit that portion of your learning, which often leads to a lack of
knowledge needed in other operations. It's something that has the
potential to haunt you endlessly.

Backlash is a non-issue. The only time it matters is if you climb mill, and
the machine is too loose, or when you don't understand how to work with it,
which one often doesn't when a DRO is used.

Having worked in the trade for years, I can say, with total honesty, what
scrap I've made isn't attributed to backlash---it's from making other stupid
mistakes.

I'm proud to say, I have NEVER used a DRO, and I've done a ton of work with
tolerance restricted to a thou in many instances. A good portion of my work
was building tools.

Did I mention all my work was subject to proper inspection by a an
independent source? I couldn't fake it.

Harold




There is likely a big difference between the machines you used and a
mill-drill, the subject of this thread. Mill drills don't have the mass,
scraped ways, or ball screws found in the bigger machines. An
experienced, skilled operator on a heavy, well-tuned BP can hold the
tolerances needed for precision tooling work. Operators with those
skills are hard to find these days as most are retired or dead. My
experience with mill-drills using the handle dials is a tolerance of +/-
..01 on a good day. Add a DRO and you can cut that error in half, maybe a
third with some practice.

When I set up our shop a couple of years ago, we skipped manual mills
altogether and installed VMCs. The old mill drill is still around, but
it's rarely used. On a VMC, anyone who can properly load the vise will
turn out parts with accuracy better than +/-.002, all day long.

Buy a jug of real way oil (Mobil Vactra #2 or equivalent) to lube the
ways and lead screws. Regular oils don't stay in place.


That explains the drops. At least it's dripping vs. running dry. How
does one know when to stop pumping? I sometimes wonder whether the
ports are filled or I'm missing the target. What is the correct tool to
use with the ports?


Get a squirt can oiler with a needle tip. There is probably a special
hose fitting for those little ball-end ports, but I never used one. The
needle tip pushes in the ball and lets you squirt in a shot of oil. Way
oil contains thickeners that make it sticky enough so a film remains on
lead screw threads and the ways.

Tim Killian writes:

Mill drills don't have the mass,
scraped ways, or ball screws found in the bigger machines.

The ways are certainly scraped on the import mill-drills.

The Acme type lead screws use the same principle as a stock Bridgeport
Series 1, although lighter and less precise. Ball screws are not common on
Bridgeports.

It is a smaller machine and less massive, but the weight is appropriate for
the scale of size.

Your experience of 0.01 tolerance is much worse than mine. The errors of
my machine are a few 0.001 and repeatable.

Harold,

Chuckle! Mortising? If you could see my red face (embarrassment), maybe
you'd understand.

I hate wood work, and I know almost nothing about it. I'm not sure I know
what a mortise is. The wood work I've done is for pattern making, and I
work like a machinist, not a wood worker.

Not to worry. At the risk of over simplifying, a mortise is a slot. I
made a couple of nice ones by plunging and hitting the feed. One can
then square the ends with a chisel or simply round the ends of the
corresponding tenon, which you have no doubt figured out is the thing
goes into the mortise.


End mills are available in a huge array of configurations, starting with
stub models that are intended for slotting, right up to the long ones (dies
[snip]
shanks if they are. They have greater relief angles, and often polished
flutes, so they are better suited for wood than would be steel cutting
tools.

Thanks!


Key is the file, which must not cut aggressively. I've posted more comments
on this addressed to Karl. I really don't recommend a stone, although it
certainly can do the job, albeit with a caveat.

I like the file idea, but am in no hurry.


No offense taken. The whole time I was wrestling the mill over the 30
ft from my driveway to its current location, I was feeling pretty good
that I did not go for the knee mill, at least not right away - not that
I would even attempt to move one myself.


Moving such things isn't a problem if you incorporate some pipe (and it's on
concrete). Once you have a machine on a few pieces of pipe, assuming you
have concrete as a floor, you can move it anywhere you desire, usually
without assistance. You have to keep juggling the pipe as it moves under
the rolling machine, so having extra hands can be useful, but not necessary.
You can move a machine that weighs tons by that method.

I will file that for the future, but there was a slight upward slope
toward my garage. The 1/2 inch lip seemed like Everest. I used a $140
engine hoist that is no-frills but very serviceable. Interestingly,
pipe solved the problem. I used it against a wood block on the ground
(to protect the concrete) and then pushed against the back of the crane
and over the lip it went. This reminds me that owe I the crane some
rustoleum.


Yep. All depends on the work at hand. I don't care how large one's
machine may be, a job always comes along that won't fit. Murphy's law!
Still, in general, I understand your comments and agree. Sounds like
you've given this some good thought before jumping.

I hope so. If not, the worst I've done is buy a seriously good drill
press; I suspect it will be able to do a lot better than that.


Not in your table! Good machinists don't drill holes in
machines------especially not by choice.

I've never knowingly drilled a hole in a machine (I once discovered one
in a shared vice and had to wonder) and have no plans to do so. Rest
assured I mean a reference hole in the work piece.


Cool! You do understand! g




You don't really need that reference hole, not as long as you have some
fixed datum points as I suggested.

I started out asking for an example, but unless you find problems below,
I think I am starting to follow. My main concern now is having enough
room to get a DTI in and out with enough spindle left to mill. However,
I suspect that a DTI and my rubber mallet will give me a way to recover
from moving the head.


If you had to make parts to print,
you'd understand that you're not always at liberty to stab in a tooling
hole, so you learn to work from surfaces that are available to you.

Ok, I think I am on the right track. It helps to be the guy who makes
the print. If I want a reference hole, there will be one, maybe two


In
keeping with that thought, when you do multiple pieces, it's really nice to
hold them identical in size (deduct from that, *on size*, not from one end
of the tolerance to the other), even when it doesn't matter. That way you
can use any edge as a reference point, a situation that often arises.
That's all a part of the things you learn as you progress in the trade.
Might not make much sense to a beginner, but it will the first time you
encounter a problem that can't be otherwise solved. I have the T shirt on
that one.

It makes sense from a woodworking perspective. The tolerances are
laughably larger, but I suspect the idea is the same.



Oh yeah! An indicator held by anything but the spindle won't help you make
setups as they relate to the spindle. You can find center of anything that
you can span using an indicator. Even square or irregular stuff. Hex,
octagon, etc. You can locate dead center of a shaft, or your vise, and do
it reliably. Using the drill chuck, as you've already suggested, you
sweep sides of items, locating the low point, then make them identical @ 180
degree intervals---which often necessitates moving the indicator off the
part by raising the quill so you can index to the opposite side. It's like
sweeping a bore, but working on the opposite face. Get creative. There's
really no rules on how you can use your DTI---and it doesn't matter if you
introduce error by offsetting the probe-----not as long as you're making
comparative readings, one against the other. You don't care if the reading
has any particular value, you're just trying to get surfaces to read the
same. Center.

I think I am following. So far, I have a dial indicator but not a DTI -
to be corrected shortly. If I can arrange to get that on and off the
spindle with depth left to mill, then I think we've solved the
registration problem (as I think you were saying from the beginning).


Welcome! Hope some of my ravings help. Do rely on others, especially if
they're skilled. Learning from self taught people can have its own set of
problems, depending on where they got their information. Learning how to
do something stupid from someone that does it that way doesn't make it
right, or good. At first, it might be hard to differentiate those that know
from those that don't, but your experiences will help you sort them out.

Thanks again!

Bill

Hello all,

I did some more searching and found a few items on Amazon. Rather than
post links that will wrap, I've given numbers that appear to be unique.
If you "search amazon" for the numbers below

B0007CXIQE - indicator holder
B0002PCU4C - DTI
B0007TVKHG - collet chuck set

you should go straight to the items. I would appreciate your opinions
one whether this stuff looks worthy of use.

A DTI of some description seems inevitable, and the holder seem
reasonable (unless it looks like junk to you). The collet chuck is just
enough money that I might wait on it, especially since your opinions
were divegent on them.

There is something else that I might be able to use to advantage. Is
there anything stopping me from holding drill bits (that fit) in collets
vs. a chuck? If not, I might be able to buy a few collets of interest,
say to hold bits associated with few hole sizes I care to tap (again,
it's good to be the guy making the printg) and buy some time for my
wallet to heal before thinking about the collet chuck set.

Thanks again. You guys are great!

Bill

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:22:58 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:

Hello all,

I did some more searching and found a few items on Amazon. Rather than
post links that will wrap, I've given numbers that appear to be unique.
If you "search amazon" for the numbers below

B0007CXIQE - indicator holder
B0002PCU4C - DTI
B0007TVKHG - collet chuck set

you should go straight to the items. I would appreciate your opinions
one whether this stuff looks worthy of use.

A DTI of some description seems inevitable, and the holder seem
reasonable (unless it looks like junk to you). The collet chuck is just
enough money that I might wait on it, especially since your opinions
were divegent on them.

There is something else that I might be able to use to advantage. Is
there anything stopping me from holding drill bits (that fit) in collets
vs. a chuck? If not, I might be able to buy a few collets of interest,
say to hold bits associated with few hole sizes I care to tap (again,
it's good to be the guy making the printg) and buy some time for my
wallet to heal before thinking about the collet chuck set.

Thanks again. You guys are great!



Bill



The DTI looks ok and us very usefull, I use a set of endmill holders
instead of collets, collets can slip and I didn't need the quick
change aspect of the collets.. A good drill chuck is a must.
Also a rotary table, angle plate, vee blocks, gee the list is
almost endless.....both sources listed are reputable.

DE

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snippage.....






BTW I really enjoy mine and it does very nice work.
If I upgrade to a bigger mill it will be a horizontal..

I'll bite: why? I learned (if you want to call it that) on a vertical
so I might simply be biased.

A vertical mill is a glorified drill press when compared to a
horizontal mill for removing metal, IMO. At least that was my view
when I used a Bport and a Cinncy side by side. Each has it's own
virtues...


There is a yahoo milldrill group
that might be a source of info..

It appears to be, but every time I try to join a Yahoo group, I get
static. As an aside I belong to one Yahoo group, and my spam when up by
orders of magnitude shortly after taking that step.


Get a Yahoo email address first then join the group using the yahoo
email address.

DE
Bill


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"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
link.net...
snip----

Besides, some dial reading will do me some good; it's been a long time.

Bill

It's better than that. It will teach, or refresh, the fundamentals, which
are all important.

You're a damned good thinker, Bill.

Harold

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
ink.net...
snip-----

Is
there anything stopping me from holding drill bits (that fit) in collets
vs. a chuck? If not, I might be able to buy a few collets of interest,
say to hold bits associated with few hole sizes I care to tap (again,
it's good to be the guy making the printg) and buy some time for my
wallet to heal before thinking about the collet chuck set.

Thanks again. You guys are great!

Bill

Nothing prevents holding drills in a collet, but drill shanks tend to be
undersized by a thou or two (by design---twist drills are not straight, they
taper towards the shank so they don't bind in the hole) and you'd be
seriously restricted as to the number of drills you could hold because of
the limited sizes available in R8 collets, which I assume you have.
Collets shouldn't be used much beyond a thou or two past nominal for
starters, and many of the tap drill sizes are not fractional----so you'd
find not many of the sizes you'd desire can be so held. The other problem,
albeit it a minor one, is that drill shanks are often quite badly badgered
from slipping---which could complicate getting them in a collet. I
highly recommend a good hand tightening drill chuck (something like an
Albrecht), half inch capacity. They're fast and precise. If you think
you'd want to change drills on the fly, you could even entertain buying a
Wahlstrom. Big bucks, and sort of dangerous in the half inch size, though.
The 3/8" capacity Wahlstrom is a sweet dream.

Harold

a
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
There DE! You heard it from the horse's, errrr, welll mouth.G Thanx
Harold. The great unwashed and inexperienced set can learn much from old
heads like you. I am happy to hear you never used a DRO and still did
tool-grade work. That statement presages a vast amount of honesty and no
small amount of pride, I'm sure. We should all have your experience but
'taint no way, no how, not in this lifetime! So, Harold, now that we are
on
the soapbox, give us your take on those that purport to jump right into
CNC
with absolutely no manual experience. I suspect they are mostly computer
programmers (or less) that believe all they peck out on a keyboard can be
easily done in the physical world.

Bob Swinney

With all due respect for the skills and talent these folks have, most of
which I envy like you'll never know, they wouldn't last a day in an old
method machine shop, assuming they could get in to begin with.

The ongoing struggle those of us have that have worked in the trade,
especially the "old way" (sans CNC) is with people that can't differentiate
between making chips and making parts. I've witnessed a tremendous amount
of that since I began following machining forums a few years ago. You
could likely teach a monkey to turn on a machine and start making
chips----well proven by the fact that I can do it. The problems start
when you have to leave behind the item you're striving to extract from the
metal you're carving-----and only the item----to specs.

At first glance, machining doesn't appear to be much of a challenge. Like
welding, folks get the idea that because they've burned some rod (made some
chips) that they understand the process, and the difference between them and
a guy that does it full time is they enjoy it, and the guy that does it full
time doesn't (he's likely half right). Such people, in my opinion, are
*new*, or very uninitiated. It takes skill and experience to make parts,
repetitively, to print, in a timely fashion. There is no substitute for
the skill (CNC excepted)-----it does not come from a book, it does not come
from your best buddy-----damned few are born with it. It comes from the
school of hard knocks, with long, hard hours of getting your hands dirty,
and with proper guidance, so you use good procedures that insure a minimum
risk of scrap and injury.

Nothing serves as a come to Jesus session better than handing an unskilled
person a print, material, no op. sheet, and point them to a machine, and ask
them to produce a given number of parts that will pass inspection. Sorts
them out right now! Like welding, you can't fake it. You can do
it-----------or you can't. Those that know the difference can see
through you with no effort. It's like playing a piano. Almost no one
does that without paying dues.

I don't suggest the CNC guys don't have the proper knowledge to do their
magic on a CNC-----and probably better than most of us can on a manual
machine------but one skill set has little to do with the
other----unless-------the operator has been in both places. Our very own
michael is one such----as are others. These guys are the best of all
worlds, for they can do it by either method. To the man, though, I have a
dime that says that once they've done it with CNC, they don't really want to
revert to the manual machines again. Not if they're trying to make a
living. The work is simply too difficult.

I'll go out on a limb and state that a guy with nothing but CNC experience
is unlikely to be any better on a manual machine than I am on a
CNC---------and that speaks volumes about their inability, at least in my
mind.

Harold

According to Bill Schwab :
I have a rebranded Rong Fu 31 (I thinkg) that is hopefully getting off
to a good start. I am open to do/don't suggestions on oiling etc.

Good waylube on the ways -- it holds on longer than lighter
lubes. Probably Mobil's "Vactra No. 2 Waylube" will be a good choice.

That will probably work well on the column as well.

What the spindle wants will vary from machine to machine and
from bearing type to bearing type.

Dumb question: for practice, I aligned my vice using a dial indicator.
It was fairly smooth, but not something I would want to do every day.
Should I be concerned about leaving the vice in place for long periods?

Check on the underside of the vise for slots for table keys.
If they exist, make a set of keys a bit oversized. and mount the vise
upside down on the table to cut the keys to precise width to match the
T-slots. (There should be tapped holes for mounting the keys.) This
way, you can drop the vise onto the table, work the keys into the
T-slots, and you will be very close. For the top precision, you may
need to adjust just a little bit, but for most work the keys will get
you to where you need to be.

If the vise does not have slots for keys, mill slots and drill
and tap the holes for screws to keep the keys in place. (You may want
two sets of slots -- one for the vise at right angles to the T-slots,
and another set for the vise parallel to the T-slots. In that case, I
would suggest putting number stamps in the keys and the slots so the
same keys go back in the same place each time.

To get the slots running just right, take a chunk of square
steel stock, clamp it to the table adjusting for parallel, and then
clamp the jaws of the inverted vise to the stock. (This is presuming
that the vise does not have a swivel base, of course.)

I would hate to find rust where there was once a nicely machined table

Wipe the table and vise down with waylube before mounting the
vise, and you should be fine as long as you don't trap water soluble
coolant under the vise.

Is there a trick to mounting an indicator on the spindle? I put it in a
chuck. Is there a better way?

There are lots of ways -- depending on the indicator. Since I
don't know what your indicator looks like, I can't suggest much --
except that I would use collets instead if I had a choice.

Speaking of the table, most of it is quite clean. There are a couple of
small dings that I assume will be best honed or lapped away. What
should I _not_ do?

What you *should* do is stone or file to remove the *raised*
part of the dings, without cutting into the rest of the surface. Again,
rub with waylube after you have filed, so you don't have bare metal
exposed to rust.

BTW -- if you've got a fuel fed heater in the shop -- beware
that aside from possibly introducing carbon monoxide and poisoning you,
it is also *very* likely to produce water vapor, which will condense on
the cold metal for quite a while until you get the tools warm enough.
Better to use electric heat, or put heat sources (e.g. light bulbs)
inside the machine to keep it warmer than the surrounding air. (And
lots of surface lube again.)

Before even checking prices, I knew about the tool change, head height,
registration woes of round column machines. I can live with it (670
pounds was quite sufficient for me and my engine hoist), but will
welcome ways to reduce the hassles.

O.K. I'll leave it to others who deal with this problem to make
suggestions on this.

One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

What is the spindle for your machine? The first hit which I
checked on "Rong Fu 31" in Google shows that the one being sold has an
R8 spindle, so you will use R8 collets. They are relatively
inexpensive, good for light work, and should be tightened by the same
drawbar which holds in you drill chuck (which is a *terrible* way to
hold end mills, though quite reasonable for drill bits.)

So -- the search for "R8" collets should narrow things down
greatly. You won't need a chuck at all for holding them -- your spindle
should do that properly.

For heavy cutting with an end mill, however, you will want end
mill holders -- as collets can let the end mill creep downward, cutting
an ever deeper slot. This is especially important as you get up to the
1/2" size of end mill or larger.

An edge/center finder is on its way. For most things, layout lines will
probably be more than sufficient. Otherwise, I am thinking of
drilling a reference hole for "when" I get lost, and then working
relative to it.

Hmm ... something like that could be nice for re-zeroing a DRO
(Digital ReadOut -- a device for numerically displaying the coordinate
positions so you aren't having to spend as much time making sure that
the leadscrew backlash is not fooling you.

Reading suggestions are welcome.

You have my thoughts for the moment.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Gary Wooding :
Bill Schwab wrote:

[ ... ]

One of the more interesting suggestions was to use a collet chuck. My
problem is that google returned so many hits as to be useless. Can some
kind soul who knows what is going on provide a link to the right gizmo
(or refute the idea)?

My (old Centec) mill came with a Clarkson chuck. I found it was a real
chore to have to remove it for drilling. I've now got an ER32 system
which can securely hold any diameter from 2-20mm. It can be used to hold
drills as well as milling cutters. Since you mention 'pounds'
somewhere else I assume you are in UK. If so, take a look at RDG Tools'
website for reasonably priced ER sets. http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/

Unfortunately, those "pounds" were units of mass, not monetary
units, and while the Clarkson end mill holders are a very nice design,
Clarkson end mills (those with the threaded top end) are *very* hard to
find in the US -- and his email suggested that he is in the US.

I've got Clarkson collet chucks in NMTB 40 taper for my Nichols
horizontal mill (with vertical head), but I don't yet have usable end
mills to try with them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
BTW -- if you've got a fuel fed heater in the shop -- beware
that aside from possibly introducing carbon monoxide and poisoning you,
it is also *very* likely to produce water vapor, ...

Not just "very likely"; burning hydrocarbons produces primarily water vapor
and carbon dioxide. Propane C2H6, butane C4H10, acetylene C2H2, methane CH4,
combine with oxygen O2 (combust) to produce primarily H2O and CO2.

... which will condense on
the cold metal for quite a while until you get the tools warm enough.

And again once the air cools and can no longer hold its water. All the
moisture you made comes back out in your shop. The only way to get rid of it
is to vent it and replace it with cool dry air, at a net loss of heat. You
have to pretty much keep it at constant, non-condensing temperature. It's
better all around for the tools and accuracy; metal expands when it warms
up. How warm is warm enough? You shouldn't see your breath, and your hands
shouldn't shake. Hypothermia also hurts accuracy.

Better to use electric heat, or put heat sources (e.g. light bulbs)
inside the machine to keep it warmer than the surrounding air. (And
lots of surface lube again.)

Halogen worklights are incredibly good heaters. A bright workarea helps
eyesight, thereby enhancing accuracy. This one is a win-win, except during
the hottest summer nights, when you should be out and about with the kids
anyway.

Harold , The machinist school I attended years ago was run by a
gentleman of considerable skill and experience. If you were able
to graduate ( and a lot didn't) a job placement was likely assured.
It was all *old school* as you describe, and fully
comprensive. One of your peers I would say.

He ran a tight ship and had a reputation among several manufactures
for turning out quality job candidates. He also steered us away
from bad employers..

I worked my tail off and only managed a 3.25 average, one of the
highest in the group but was I disappointed. It was not as easy of a
program as I had expected but much more rewarding. The highest
marks usually went to those working in the trade and being sent in by
their employer.

I later became friends with his son and was told that it was a pretty
good score .

The program is now all cnc and caters to a couple employers, and
no longer enjoys the reputation it once had. I might go back just to
compare and to see how I would do.

DE

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:38:24 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

a
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
There DE! You heard it from the horse's, errrr, welll mouth.G Thanx
Harold. The great unwashed and inexperienced set can learn much from old
heads like you. I am happy to hear you never used a DRO and still did
tool-grade work. That statement presages a vast amount of honesty and no
small amount of pride, I'm sure. We should all have your experience but
'taint no way, no how, not in this lifetime! So, Harold, now that we are
on
the soapbox, give us your take on those that purport to jump right into
CNC
with absolutely no manual experience. I suspect they are mostly computer
programmers (or less) that believe all they peck out on a keyboard can be
easily done in the physical world.

Bob Swinney

With all due respect for the skills and talent these folks have, most of
which I envy like you'll never know, they wouldn't last a day in an old
method machine shop, assuming they could get in to begin with.

The ongoing struggle those of us have that have worked in the trade,
especially the "old way" (sans CNC) is with people that can't differentiate
between making chips and making parts. I've witnessed a tremendous amount
of that since I began following machining forums a few years ago. You
could likely teach a monkey to turn on a machine and start making
chips----well proven by the fact that I can do it. The problems start
when you have to leave behind the item you're striving to extract from the
metal you're carving-----and only the item----to specs.

At first glance, machining doesn't appear to be much of a challenge. Like
welding, folks get the idea that because they've burned some rod (made some
chips) that they understand the process, and the difference between them and
a guy that does it full time is they enjoy it, and the guy that does it full
time doesn't (he's likely half right). Such people, in my opinion, are
*new*, or very uninitiated. It takes skill and experience to make parts,
repetitively, to print, in a timely fashion. There is no substitute for
the skill (CNC excepted)-----it does not come from a book, it does not come
from your best buddy-----damned few are born with it. It comes from the
school of hard knocks, with long, hard hours of getting your hands dirty,
and with proper guidance, so you use good procedures that insure a minimum
risk of scrap and injury.

Nothing serves as a come to Jesus session better than handing an unskilled
person a print, material, no op. sheet, and point them to a machine, and ask
them to produce a given number of parts that will pass inspection. Sorts
them out right now! Like welding, you can't fake it. You can do
it-----------or you can't. Those that know the difference can see
through you with no effort. It's like playing a piano. Almost no one
does that without paying dues.

I don't suggest the CNC guys don't have the proper knowledge to do their
magic on a CNC-----and probably better than most of us can on a manual
machine------but one skill set has little to do with the
other----unless-------the operator has been in both places. Our very own
michael is one such----as are others. These guys are the best of all
worlds, for they can do it by either method. To the man, though, I have a
dime that says that once they've done it with CNC, they don't really want to
revert to the manual machines again. Not if they're trying to make a
living. The work is simply too difficult.

I'll go out on a limb and state that a guy with nothing but CNC experience
is unlikely to be any better on a manual machine than I am on a
CNC---------and that speaks volumes about their inability, at least in my
mind.

Harold





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"Mike Young" wrote:
Not just "very likely"; burning hydrocarbons produces primarily water
vapor
and carbon dioxide. Propane C2H6, butane C4H10, acetylene C2H2, methane
CH4,
combine with oxygen O2 (combust) to produce primarily H2O and CO2.

pedant
Propane is C3H8; the C2H6 you listed is ethane.
/pedant

Jon

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:

a
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
There DE! You heard it from the horse's, errrr, welll mouth.G
Thanx Harold. The great unwashed and inexperienced set can learn
much from old heads like you. I am happy to hear you never used a
DRO and still did tool-grade work. That statement presages a vast
amount of honesty and no small amount of pride, I'm sure. We should
all have your experience but 'taint no way, no how, not in this
lifetime! So, Harold, now that we are
on
the soapbox, give us your take on those that purport to jump right
into
CNC
with absolutely no manual experience. I suspect they are mostly
computer programmers (or less) that believe all they peck out on a
keyboard can be easily done in the physical world.

Bob Swinney

With all due respect for the skills and talent these folks have, most
of which I envy like you'll never know, they wouldn't last a day in an
old method machine shop, assuming they could get in to begin with.

I disagree. A skilled CNC machinist has every skill and then some that
are required to machine parts on manual equipment. That being said I'll
be the first to admit that there are a lot of semi-skilled CNC
"machinists" out there. They know how to change tools, set offsets, use
an indicator, etc. They are skilled operators really. They can set up a
CNC machine and operate it, but they don't have the experience required
to process a part. I've seen these guys try to use manual machines and
frankly they scare me.

On the other hand there are the CNC machinists who develop the process,
figure out the work holding, select the tools and write the programs.
They could work in any "old method" shop and survive just fine. If
anything they might bring a little fresh insight with them. They are also
used to having to think about every single detail before they start
cutting a chip, a discipline that many manual machinists lack. Writing a
CNC program forces you to think about every single step on a micro level
ahead of time. If it ain't in the program the machine won't do it. CNC
machines in general move a whole lot faster, have more power, and run at
higher speeds. This forces you to consider work holding a lot more
carefully than you would have to otherwise.

I started in the trade on manual machines at a time when only the biggest
companies had CNC. Eventually I learned CNC and wound up working as an
application engineer teaching CNC programming to people who had never
used one before. The statements I made above are very broad and general.
Certainly CNC allows you to process a part differently than you would on
manual machines. For example if you are machining a part out of a block
of steel, on manual machines you might blue up the block, scribe lines,
and rough it out on a band saw. On a CNC you would hog it out right on
the machine. So a CNC guy might have to learn a few methods, but I'm sure
they would be fine. Having taught CNC, often manual machinists have to
learn trig and other new skills.


The ongoing struggle those of us have that have worked in the trade,
especially the "old way" (sans CNC) is with people that can't
differentiate between making chips and making parts. I've witnessed
a tremendous amount of that since I began following machining forums a
few years ago. You could likely teach a monkey to turn on a machine
and start making chips----well proven by the fact that I can do it.
The problems start when you have to leave behind the item you're
striving to extract from the metal you're carving-----and only the
item----to specs.

At first glance, machining doesn't appear to be much of a challenge.
Like welding, folks get the idea that because they've burned some rod
(made some chips) that they understand the process, and the difference
between them and a guy that does it full time is they enjoy it, and
the guy that does it full time doesn't (he's likely half right).
Such people, in my opinion, are *new*, or very uninitiated. It
takes skill and experience to make parts, repetitively, to print, in a
timely fashion. There is no substitute for the skill (CNC
excepted)-----it does not come from a book, it does not come from your
best buddy-----damned few are born with it. It comes from the school
of hard knocks, with long, hard hours of getting your hands dirty, and
with proper guidance, so you use good procedures that insure a minimum
risk of scrap and injury.

Very true, but I take exception that you can't learn from a book.
Studying from books while getting hands on experience will shorten your
learning curve more than floundering around and trying to figure out
things by trial and error. Taking night classes at a local technical
college is another great way to speed up the learning process. Often
night classes are taught by folks moonlighting from their day job in a
local factory.

If nothing else I know enough to know that I don't know everything.
Reading helps me stay current. Everyone should subscribe to trade mags,
scour libraries, and go to machine tool shows. You can learn a lot just
by reading tooling catalogs. I've attended classes at Kennametal and
Sandvik. It's time well spent. A good machinist should always be looking
to learn.


Nothing serves as a come to Jesus session better than handing an
unskilled person a print, material, no op. sheet, and point them to a
machine, and ask them to produce a given number of parts that will
pass inspection. Sorts them out right now! Like welding, you can't
fake it. You can do it-----------or you can't. Those that know
the difference can see through you with no effort. It's like playing
a piano. Almost no one does that without paying dues.

Well said.


I don't suggest the CNC guys don't have the proper knowledge to do
their magic on a CNC-----and probably better than most of us can on a
manual machine------but one skill set has little to do with the
other----unless-------the operator has been in both places. Our very
own michael is one such----as are others. These guys are the best of
all worlds, for they can do it by either method. To the man,
though, I have a dime that says that once they've done it with CNC,
they don't really want to revert to the manual machines again. Not if
they're trying to make a living. The work is simply too difficult.

I'll go out on a limb and state that a guy with nothing but CNC
experience is unlikely to be any better on a manual machine than I am
on a CNC---------and that speaks volumes about their inability, at
least in my mind.


Again, it depends on the skill level of the CNC machinist. CNC has
changed the work environment in the shop. In larger companies, often it's
hard for a machinist to develop skills beyond set up and operation. The
highly skilled guy takes care of feeding multiple machines programs and
processes.

CNC machines output a lot more work with fewer employees. This fact often
convinces people that manufacturing is dead in the U.S. Not so. We are
still the worlds largest manufacturer, but that work is done with far
fewer employees than in the past. The operators spend more time feeding
the machines and material handling than in the past. Often they just
don't get the opportunity to advance beyond that point.

Most of the really good skilled people come out of small places that do
short runs, prototypes, model and tool making. As there is more
opportunity in that type of environment to learn. Job classifications are
less defined and often as an employee you are thrown in water that is way
over your head.

From what I see there are far too few highly skilled people out there and
there is a lack of formal training programs to teach those skills.


--

Dan