Stuart Grey wrote:


The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation.
They
always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want.


No they don't. Some businesses set up stock programs where the company
buys stock and the board of directors control it and vote the stock. Of
course, they vote themselves their own jobs.

Since many retirement funds and mutual funds vote their shares in
proportion to the votes of other shareholders, these shares owned and
kept by the company leverage a larger percentage.

And when was the last time a board member up for election wasn't someone
picked by the board itself? They make the rules as to who can get on the
ballot, and unless some outsider buys a whole lot of shares, it's pretty
much closed to their plundering.

That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy
management. If

I have to point out that it's the *majority*
shareholder(s) that count. Everyone else is
free to come to the meeting and make a small
speech, but it's whoever can produce the majority
vote that has the power. I've learned the
hard way that there's way more difference between
49% and 51% than 2% (:

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:



No they don't. Some businesses set up stock programs where the company
buys stock and the board of directors control it and vote the stock. Of
course, they vote themselves their own jobs.

Anual meetings of shareholders do this. It is not done by the Boards
themselves. It is about the only part of the process that involves
democracy. The shares approve ( or not) a slate of directors, the directors
chooses the management and it's off to the races. The process only gets ugly
when the properly elected board of directors gets hosed in contract
negotions with the managers the select to run the companies operations. In
effect, they over pay. You can't blame a COO or COE or CEO for snookering a
Board.


Since many retirement funds and mutual funds vote their shares in
proportion to the votes of other shareholders, these shares owned and
kept by the company leverage a larger percentage.

And when was the last time a board member up for election wasn't someone
picked by the board itself?

All the time. They are called outside directors and many articles of
incorporation and corporate bylaws require this.



They make the rules as to who can get on the
ballot, and unless some outsider buys a whole lot of shares, it's pretty
much closed to their plundering.

You can't steal from yourself and it wouldn't make sense to do so. They also
don't make the rules, the shareholders do.
It really isn't that confusing if you think about it and rigorously separate
the groups in your mind. They may over lap - even completely - but each
group has it's own responsibilities.



Stuart,
I won't have an argument with you about corporate governance. I have been
involved in these issues for 30 years.
Let me just point out that you do not understand this issue. You seem to
think board members are not share holders. They usually control most of the
voting shares either directly or by proxy so when you say that they don't
usually act in the best interests of the shareholders you are simply not
correct. They may not care greatly about minority interests but when they
loot a company they are essentially stealing from their creditors and not
their shareholders. Minority shareholder actions are easy to avoid - you
just cut them in for a piece.
Your view of all of this seems to derive from an underlying belief that
Officers, Directors, shareholders, employees and the public share some
communal interest. They don't. The directors have no interest beyond
maximizing their personal stake with whatever means are legally available.
They only act within the mandate they receive from a voting majority of the
outstanding shares. Period - end of story.
When they control the shares they control the company.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

ATP* wrote:

Unfortunately not always true, and that's why corporate governance has been
an issue. The boards and CEOs have put self interest ahead of shareholder
interest in too many cases.

We need to make it so that a member of a board of directors can serve on
only ONE board. We need to outlaw company controlled stock.

ATP* wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:


Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.


Which we now see in practice in the Oval Office.

How nice. Another orphaned subjective "fact", with no objective facts to
support it. This fact is clearly the ******* child of a liberal.

Give us a good argument that this is what Bush is doing. I don't care
for your subjective facts that are not supported.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get
the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the
hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the
company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.


Kinda like Dubya's business ventures, except the ones the taxpayers
subsidized.

Not all businesses are successful.

Did you know that Henry Ford had FIVE car companies? The first four failed.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest
jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of
free people everywhere.


And friends of George!

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
ATP* wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:


Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.


Which we now see in practice in the Oval Office.

How nice. Another orphaned subjective "fact", with no objective facts to
support it. This fact is clearly the ******* child of a liberal.

Give us a good argument that this is what Bush is doing. I don't care for
your subjective facts that are not supported.

OK, how about the irresponsible plunge into massive deficit spending since
Bush took office? That's not the only way he is squandering this nation's
wealth and future, but it's a start.

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
Jim,
I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell
you:
1) For all you claim to know, why aren't you making in excess of $ 250,000
?
2) The man is a Bodygaurd. Would you put your ass on the line for $
250,000 ?
3) You folks in Westchester pay exorbidant taxes, if you want to save
money, gut the "Free Cheese".
4) They are getting a good deal for $250,000. He is doing two jobs.
Usually there is a driver and a Bodyguard.
5) Why don't you try out for the Bodyguards job ? You too much of a pussy
?

Those jobs always go to a well connected cop, usually near retirement. I
don't think they're holding any "tryouts"!

The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester
(NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will
be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county
district attorney and claims that she needs protection.

She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard.

Probably she needs the protection because she's all
mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections.

Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for
a driver.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:35:54 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.



These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike
went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

Tyco is still in business.

Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

WorldCom was a fraud from the getgo - pure vapor. It would
have been gone regardless of what the execs did.

Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion,
Fraud ( Trade Parking )

You can also easily search on the following for details.

Jeffrey Skilling, Enron.
Kenneth Lay, Enron.
Ivan Boesky, various closed funds.
Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd.
Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd.
Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd.
Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example
of greenmail.
Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end.
Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances.

That's quite a list, but you haven't detailed what they
actually DID. Did any of them ruin a company by stealing
from it?

What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

I'm NOT saying there hasn't been some bad behavior. I'd
just like people to be a little more exact, rather than
throwing out wild claims without any explanation of what the
crimes were supposed to be.

I don't particularly trust Fortune 500 executives, and I
doubt they really run the companies strictly for the benefit
of the stockholders, as they should. But to say, for
example, "Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd." as if that's
supposed to mean anything, is a bit much. Who is Dan Cohrs,
and what did he do to Global Crossing?

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:05:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Cliff wrote:


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.

Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH
better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000.

These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the
company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from
lamp posts on Wall Street.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)?

Someone else provided many good examples of CEOs who were plundering the
company.

You also need to read the website.

I don't accept mandatory reading assignments from usenet
posters.

These guys were raking in tens of
millions of dollars even as they lost over 70% of the shareholder's
equity during times when the economy was doing good.

Isn't that the shareholders' responsibility? - to either
change the board of directors or sell their stock? Why are
they so passive?

It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.

There was that guy at Boeing who Lockheed accused of being in on a deal
where they got preferential treatment from an air force buyer, and then
gave the air force buyer a nice VP job as payoff. Billions of taxpayer
money was wasted so these people can rake in a few millions. The CEO of
Boeing was pretty much untouchable, but you knew that the Air Force just
didn't trust him.

Sorry - I just don't understand that story. How do you know
whom the Air Force trusted, and whom they didn't trust, and
why?

Then, suddenly, the CEO was fired for having an affair at some corporate
paid for drunken orgy, and then just days after he was fired, the Air
Force announced that it would do business with Boeing again.

Corrupt as hell. These guys plunder the company and the country.

You'll have to give a more complete explanation of the
events you mention before I'll accept your conclusions.
Boeing seems to be doing extremely well nowadays. Its
executives apparently didn't ruin the company. As for
Boeing plundering the country - I don't see how they can do
that. Do they have some way of forcing the Air Force to buy
their stuff, and pay too much for it? Or do they just go
directly to the Treasury and do an armed robbery?

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being paid
too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew to be
larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of a
recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5 billion
dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in those kinds
of
numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he did?
The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or illegal
accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked in fact Tyco
made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain, throwing an
expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt his conviction
will
hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed for not paying enough
income tax at some point.



Dan,
Several million dollars worth of corporate art were misappropriated and
somehow or other the taxes and duties on those purchases were illegally
avoided. I don't know the details or even how this was resolved but I
wouldn't be surprised if his conviction was indeed overturned.
Most of what I did see was crass but not against the law. Sometimes it's not
such a good idea to flaunt what you have.
As for Tyco's fortunes, they will be ,and are, strengthening significantly
as the result of the divestiture plan implemented when Dennis "moved on". He
had them into many businesses the had no business being in. A lot of those
purchases are now history. I couldn't tell you how they ended up.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

D Murphy wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.


His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being paid
too much.

We'll see. Being a CEO is not a license to
take corporate assets at will. I think you
know that.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew to be
larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of a
recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5 billion
dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in those kinds of
numbers?

And on Jan 2002, Tyco was trading at 60.
By Jan 2003 it was trading below 20. I
guess the shareholders didn't make out
quite as well as Mr. Kozloski.

John R. Carroll wrote:

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being paid
too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew to be
larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of a
recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5 billion
dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in those kinds

of

numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he did?
The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or illegal
accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked in fact Tyco
made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain, throwing an
expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt his conviction

will

hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed for not paying enough
income tax at some point.




Dan,
Several million dollars worth of corporate art were misappropriated and
somehow or other the taxes and duties on those purchases were illegally
avoided. I don't know the details or even how this was resolved but I
wouldn't be surprised if his conviction was indeed overturned.
Most of what I did see was crass but not against the law. Sometimes it's not
such a good idea to flaunt what you have.
As for Tyco's fortunes, they will be ,and are, strengthening significantly
as the result of the divestiture plan implemented when Dennis "moved on". He
had them into many businesses the had no business being in. A lot of those
purchases are now history. I couldn't tell you how they ended up.

I suspect a fat book could be written about
the Tyco adventure and still everything wouldn't
be covered. I know at least one company that
I've done business with for years that was bought
by Tyco and now is just a shell of what it
once was.

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:35:54 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs




These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike
went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

Tyco is still in business.

I didn't realize bankruptcy was a requirement.



Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

WorldCom was a fraud from the getgo - pure vapor. It would
have been gone regardless of what the execs did.

They aren't gone.


Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury,
conversion,
Fraud ( Trade Parking )

You can also easily search on the following for details.

Jeffrey Skilling, Enron.
Kenneth Lay, Enron.
Ivan Boesky, various closed funds.
Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd.
Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd.
Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd.
Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic
example
of greenmail.
Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the
end.
Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances.

That's quite a list, but you haven't detailed what they
actually DID. Did any of them ruin a company by stealing
from it?

You mention in another post that you do not accept assignments from other
posters. I don't either:)


What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

In the Good Year instance Bob Mercer, GoodYear's chairman, paid Sir James
GoldSmith a substantial premium to go away.
Goldsmith was trying to buy and reorganize Goodyear. They were
underpreforming. Mercer saved his job. Green Mail is a form of extortion.


I'm NOT saying there hasn't been some bad behavior. I'd
just like people to be a little more exact, rather than
throwing out wild claims without any explanation of what the
crimes were supposed to be.

I don't know about "wild claims" but if you mean claims that top executives
are ruining our country I would say that any such claim is foolish and not
based on any version of reality I know of.


I don't particularly trust Fortune 500 executives, and I
doubt they really run the companies strictly for the benefit
of the stockholders, as they should. But to say, for
example, "Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd." as if that's
supposed to mean anything, is a bit much. Who is Dan Cohrs,
and what did he do to Global Crossing?
Mr. Dan Cohrs
Chief Financial Officer
Global Crossing Ltd.
Seven Giralda Farms
Madison, NJ, 07940

Dan was cooking the books.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

D Murphy wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being paid
too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew to be
larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of a
recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5 billion
dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in those kinds of
numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he did?
The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or illegal
accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked in fact Tyco
made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain, throwing an
expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt his conviction will
hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed for not paying enough
income tax at some point.

--

Dan



He bought AMP and stripped it to inflate his profits. A lot of jobs
were lost in Pa.

John

Jim Stewart wrote in
:

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being
paid too much.

We'll see. Being a CEO is not a license to
take corporate assets at will. I think you
know that.

True. But what was compensation, and what wasn't? The IRS will have him
dead to rights as far as tax evasion goes. The rest from what I've been
reading is a little doubtful. But who knows? The climate is pretty
intolerant for these big time CEO's.


Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew
to be larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of
a recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5
billion dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in
those kinds of numbers?

And on Jan 2002, Tyco was trading at 60.
By Jan 2003 it was trading below 20. I
guess the shareholders didn't make out
quite as well as Mr. Kozloski.

The stock, like most others at that time was overvalued to begin with. It
fell with the others, they racked up a 9 billion loss following 9-11, then
Enron, then came the hint of scandal and it was done for.


--

Dan

john wrote in
:



D Murphy wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell
Milken. Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being
paid too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew
to be larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of
a recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5
billion dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in
those kinds of numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he
did? The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or
illegal accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked
in fact Tyco made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain,
throwing an expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt
his conviction will hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed
for not paying enough income tax at some point.

--

Dan



He bought AMP and stripped it to inflate his profits. A lot of jobs
were lost in Pa.


Amp was dead no matter who owned it. The whole telecom bubble burst and
no company survived unscathed. Where are all of the high flyers today?
Lucent, ADC, Worldcom, etc, etc.

I'll bet he sits around wishing he never bought Amp and all of the other
telecom companies that imploded. Tyco wouldn't have lost 9 billion and he
probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.


--

Dan

Too often the case. A strong CEQ gets the board to nominate people
that the CEO can dominate. Not always the case. Fiona got bounced by
the HP board 8-) But she still collected big bucks 8-(. Given
enough time I can find dozens of examples of CEO's that were fired by
the board 8-) and hundreds that should have been. 8-(.

Dan
jim rozen wrote:
So a corporation has
a board of directors, who are suppose to supervise the CEO's. Again
the boards are human and don't always do a great job.

However if you look at the makeup of the boards, they do tend to
be other CEOs of other corporations. It's a mutual back-scratching
thing.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
john wrote in
:



D Murphy wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell
Milken. Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being
paid too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew
to be larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of
a recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5
billion dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in
those kinds of numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he
did? The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or
illegal accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked
in fact Tyco made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain,
throwing an expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt
his conviction will hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed
for not paying enough income tax at some point.

--

Dan



He bought AMP and stripped it to inflate his profits. A lot of jobs
were lost in Pa.


Amp was dead no matter who owned it. The whole telecom bubble burst and
no company survived unscathed. Where are all of the high flyers today?
Lucent, ADC, Worldcom, etc, etc.

I'll bet he sits around wishing he never bought Amp and all of the other
telecom companies that imploded. Tyco wouldn't have lost 9 billion and he
probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.




There wasn't much cash in any of those deals Dan. Dennis was printing his
own brand of currency and in so doing he leveraged his capital in a big way.
That was what he was being paid so well to do. He was really selling the
boards of the companies being purchased on the future value of Tyco stock.
He was good at it and had he not done those deals and many others he would
have been out on his ass. It was what he was hired and expected to do. It
wasn't either a secret or a mystery.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

D Murphy wrote:

john wrote in
:



D Murphy wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell
Milken. Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of, being
paid too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco grew
to be larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the midst of
a recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of over 5
billion dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who brings in
those kinds of numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals he
did? The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing, or
illegal accounting. The company is still in business and never tanked
in fact Tyco made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain,
throwing an expensive party, and being paid too much money. I doubt
his conviction will hold up under appeal. He will probably get nailed
for not paying enough income tax at some point.

--

Dan



He bought AMP and stripped it to inflate his profits. A lot of jobs
were lost in Pa.


Amp was dead no matter who owned it. The whole telecom bubble burst and
no company survived unscathed. Where are all of the high flyers today?
Lucent, ADC, Worldcom, etc, etc.

I'll bet he sits around wishing he never bought Amp and all of the other
telecom companies that imploded. Tyco wouldn't have lost 9 billion and he
probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.

--

Dan


AMP was a component manfacturer, mostly connectors that had diverse
applications including the electrical distibution market. I dont
remember being heavy in the telecom industry.

John

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
john wrote in
:



D Murphy wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
:


These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell
Milken. Mike went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.

His conviction will be overturned. There are no laws governing
compensation, and that is basically what he was convicted of,
being paid too much.

Here is a guy that grew the company by 80 billion dollars. Tyco
grew to be larger and more profitable than GM. He did this in the
midst of a recession. In 2001 the company had a pretax profit of
over 5 billion dollars. What is fair compensation for someone who
brings in those kinds of numbers?

Does he have a big ego? Sure. Wouldn't anyone who bagged the deals
he did? The SEC investigated Tyco and found no fraud, wrong doing,
or illegal accounting. The company is still in business and never
tanked in fact Tyco made loads of money.

So he's been convicted for buying an expensive shower curtain,
throwing an expensive party, and being paid too much money. I
doubt his conviction will hold up under appeal. He will probably
get nailed for not paying enough income tax at some point.

--

Dan



He bought AMP and stripped it to inflate his profits. A lot of
jobs were lost in Pa.


Amp was dead no matter who owned it. The whole telecom bubble burst
and no company survived unscathed. Where are all of the high flyers
today? Lucent, ADC, Worldcom, etc, etc.

I'll bet he sits around wishing he never bought Amp and all of the
other telecom companies that imploded. Tyco wouldn't have lost 9
billion and he probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.




There wasn't much cash in any of those deals Dan. Dennis was printing
his own brand of currency and in so doing he leveraged his capital in
a big way. That was what he was being paid so well to do. He was
really selling the boards of the companies being purchased on the
future value of Tyco stock. He was good at it and had he not done
those deals and many others he would have been out on his ass. It was
what he was hired and expected to do. It wasn't either a secret or a
mystery.


I realize that. But they weren't corporate raiders either. Tyco was
trying to emulate the success of GE. Growth through aquisition.

I supplied equipment to various companies that were bought by Tyco. Their
main goal seemed to be to automate operations as much as possible and
eliminate labor. They were also big on eliminating inventory, JIT, and
quality. In other words they wanted to be a manufacturer, not a raider.

Back to your point. While Tyco was leveraging their own stock to aquire
companies, bad aquisitions still result in real losses. I imagine
Koslowski was under tremendous pressure to build a position in telecom.
It was supposed to be the next big thing. It turned out to be too much
speculation and not enough business. I know of a lot of job shops that
went under when the bubble burst. It also screwed up certain segments of
the machine tool market for a while. Lots of late model used machines
available for pennies on the dollar.


--

Dan

On 29 Aug 2005 01:37:12 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Tyco wouldn't have lost 9 billion and he
probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.

You just posted how well they were doing ....
--
Cliff

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:05:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Someone else provided many good examples of CEOs who were plundering the
company.

You also need to read the website. These guys were raking in tens of
millions of dollars even as they lost over 70% of the shareholder's
equity during times when the economy was doing good.

Republicans & shrubbie's buddies ?
The neocons may have gutted the SEC too.
--
Cliff

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:05:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

There was that guy at Boeing who Lockheed accused of being in on a deal
where they got preferential treatment from an air force buyer, and then
gave the air force buyer a nice VP job as payoff. Billions of taxpayer
money was wasted so these people can rake in a few millions.

Much of which seems to have gone into the shrubbie's coffers
if this is that tanker deal. And it was a woman, IIRC.
--
Cliff

In article , Kevin says...

Sorry Jim. I was in a bad mood. You do offer up some great advice. We just
have different political views... Please accept my apology..

Umm - accepted.

But in this case there really was no political agenda.

*Everyone* dislikes this lady (piro). Honest!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:14:42 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

(snip to the heart of the matter (perhaps).

What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

In the Good Year instance Bob Mercer, GoodYear's chairman, paid Sir James
GoldSmith a substantial premium to go away.
Goldsmith was trying to buy and reorganize Goodyear. They were
underpreforming. Mercer saved his job. Green Mail is a form of extortion.

If "green mail" forced Mercer to get Goodyear to stop
underperforming and start performing up to its potential, I
see that as a Good Thing. Extortion? To force Mercer to
get Goodyear performing? I don't think so.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Cliff wrote in news:n9k5h11ucmja41ldh0ocj8rk94f0h3mie3@
4ax.com:

On 29 Aug 2005 01:37:12 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Tyco wouldn't have lost 9 billion and he
probably would have escaped all of the scrutiny.

You just posted how well they were doing ....

At a particular point in time, try to follow along. It's an interesting
case is all. He went from hero to zero in four quarters.


--

Dan

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:14:42 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

(snip to the heart of the matter (perhaps).

What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

In the Good Year instance Bob Mercer, GoodYear's chairman, paid Sir James
GoldSmith a substantial premium to go away.
Goldsmith was trying to buy and reorganize Goodyear. They were
underpreforming. Mercer saved his job. Green Mail is a form of extortion.

If "green mail" forced Mercer to get Goodyear to stop
underperforming and start performing up to its potential, I
see that as a Good Thing. Extortion? To force Mercer to
get Goodyear performing? I don't think so.

(rest snipped)



He didn't.
Good Year did it's level best to become an unattractive acquisition. They
took on a mountain of new debt that resulted in cuts to the activities that
are frequently the first to go when servicing debt incurred to by back
outstanding shares. R&D took a pretty good hit. It would be like you
knocking holes in the walls and destroying the heating and plumbing of your
house then taking a huge mortgage to pay for repairs in order to keep a
buyer away. Then, as insurance, you write the interested party a big check
to get back the section you sold him at 5 times the price he paid you in
exchange for an agreement with him to leave the neighborhood.
I have seen it argued that this kicked off the move by American auto
manufacturers from American suppliers to the Japanese tire companies.
Bridgestone subsequently acquired Firestone as a "white knight" because
Bridgestone is a tire company and not a management specialist group like
KKR. I won't look because it isn't critical but I believe that Cooper and
Titan are the only survivors of the tire wars and I wouldn't be surprised if
it was only Titan.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:33:24 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:14:42 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

(snip to the heart of the matter (perhaps).

What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

In the Good Year instance Bob Mercer, GoodYear's chairman, paid Sir James
GoldSmith a substantial premium to go away.
Goldsmith was trying to buy and reorganize Goodyear. They were
underpreforming. Mercer saved his job. Green Mail is a form of extortion.

If "green mail" forced Mercer to get Goodyear to stop
underperforming and start performing up to its potential, I
see that as a Good Thing. Extortion? To force Mercer to
get Goodyear performing? I don't think so.

(rest snipped)



He didn't.
Good Year did it's level best to become an unattractive acquisition. They
took on a mountain of new debt that resulted in cuts to the activities that
are frequently the first to go when servicing debt incurred to by back
outstanding shares. R&D took a pretty good hit.

In that case it was Mercer who was misbehaving, not
Goldsmith.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:33:24 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:14:42 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

(snip to the heart of the matter (perhaps).

What were the examples of "green mail"? How did that work?

In the Good Year instance Bob Mercer, GoodYear's chairman, paid Sir
James
GoldSmith a substantial premium to go away.
Goldsmith was trying to buy and reorganize Goodyear. They were
underpreforming. Mercer saved his job. Green Mail is a form of
extortion.

If "green mail" forced Mercer to get Goodyear to stop
underperforming and start performing up to its potential, I
see that as a Good Thing. Extortion? To force Mercer to
get Goodyear performing? I don't think so.

(rest snipped)



He didn't.
Good Year did it's level best to become an unattractive acquisition. They
took on a mountain of new debt that resulted in cuts to the activities
that
are frequently the first to go when servicing debt incurred to by back
outstanding shares. R&D took a pretty good hit.

In that case it was Mercer who was misbehaving, not
Goldsmith.



I don't especially care for smug old schoolers but Mercer did exactly what
he was being paid to do and he didn't like it one bit.
The plan he executed was what his shareholders had approved at a prior
annual meeting and two subsequent special ones. The owners of Good Year
exercised their prerogative within the boundaries of what was then legal.
They also lobbied the Congress and what happened then is now proscribed
under the law.
Fred Friendly had a one hour panel at Columbia University that addressed the
ethics and law in these situations. Mercer, Goldsmith, Pickens, Joe Flomm
and Herb Wachtel as well as the CEO at Soloman Brothers and Warren Buffet
were part of the group and it was very interesting. PBS runs a collection
of these panel discussions from time to time and they are worth watching.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On 30 Aug 2005 01:17:41 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

The company I worked for was mainly military use, satcom, and some other
specialty stuff. Amp wasn't very competitive in those markets

Why not?
--
Cliff

D Murphy wrote:
Cliff wrote in news:in28h1p49vhp90rat0l9jf6c4lsru7euj4@
4ax.com:


On 30 Aug 2005 01:17:41 GMT, D Murphy wrote:


The company I worked for was mainly military use, satcom, and some other
specialty stuff. Amp wasn't very competitive in those markets

Why not?


I don't know. Could be they weren't interested at first, then decided it
would be easier to buy an existing company, designs, patents, etc..

AMP was the grand old man of the connector
industry. 1,000,000 separate line items
in their prime. Salesmen with pockets full
of samples, ready to come out at a moment's
notice.

Their products were not cheap, but they worked
and AMP had a beautiful line of tooling to
apply the connectors.

Eventually the simple parts became second-
sourced in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar.
Tyco cleaned house and now AMP is a shell
of what it used to be.

Another Bridgeport, Monarch, etc...

In article , Jim Stewart says...

Eventually the simple parts became second-
sourced in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar.
Tyco cleaned house and now AMP is a shell
of what it used to be.

You mean, "backshell."

:^)

Jim (yet another former user of Amp Special Industries products)


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

*Everyone* dislikes this lady (piro). Honest!

Jim

You can add Alan Dershowitz's name to the top of the hate list. I have seen
him on a talk show with the two of them on at the same time and he told the
host that he would never appear on a show with her again. He hasn't either.
But you're absolutely right about the hordes of folks that despise her. Only
another Republican could stand to be in the same room with her.

Hawke

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.


Sounds like they are just the people to be running things in America and are
good friends with the current administration.

Hawke

**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

I don't see how the "Collective" could have done any worse. My thinking is
that when you get nothing trying something different is the only proper
course of action.

Hawke

Someone else provided many good examples of CEOs who were plundering the
company.

You also need to read the website. These guys were raking in tens of
millions of dollars even as they lost over 70% of the shareholder's
equity during times when the economy was doing good.

Republicans & shrubbie's buddies ?

What's the big surprise? The Republicans have been telling everyone they
were going to help those on top and let everyone else fend for themselves
ever since Reagan was president. They just could never get it done with
Democrats blocking them. With no one to stop them they have done just what
they said they would. Which begs the question; how's it workin'?

From what I can see the country is in the worst shape it has been in since
the Depression. We went from a competent and successful president; Clinton,
to Bush, the worst, most incompetent president maybe ever. The fiasco in New
Orleans is just another example of just how bad the people running things
really are. I don't know how many people are aware of it but engineers in
Louisiana have been begging for money to upgrade their levies for years but
Bush cut them back and used the funds for the war in Iraq. After a lucky
streak early in it's term, it is looking like the idiotic decisions by the
Bush Administration are finally proving how bad they were. I hope Americans
are happy with the way the Republicans are handling things.
But I can't help but wonder just what it will take for the public to have
had their fill of their incompetence and continual errors and vote them out
of office.

Hawke

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:04:40 -0700, "Hawke"
wrote:



**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

I don't see how the "Collective" could have done any worse. My thinking is
that when you get nothing trying something different is the only proper
course of action.

Hawke

So putting the failure called Communism in place would be a proper
course of action?

You are indeed a brainless ****wit.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:04:40 -0700, "Hawke"
wrote:



**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

I don't see how the "Collective" could have done any worse. My thinking
is
that when you get nothing trying something different is the only proper
course of action.

Hawke

So putting the failure called Communism in place would be a proper
course of action?


It might be in your case Gunner. The market is sending you a pretty clear
signal and Uber Capitalist that you are you can't hear it.
Talk about brainless ****wits.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 07:57:49 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:




"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:04:40 -0700, "Hawke"
wrote:



**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

I don't see how the "Collective" could have done any worse. My thinking
is
that when you get nothing trying something different is the only proper
course of action.

Hawke

So putting the failure called Communism in place would be a proper
course of action?


It might be in your case Gunner. The market is sending you a pretty clear
signal and Uber Capitalist that you are you can't hear it.

Things are improving oddly enough. Seems patience, perseverance and
pure stubbornis is starting to pay off

Talk about brainless ****wits.

Lets leave critiqes of you out of it, ok?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:04:40 -0700, "Hawke"
wrote:



**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

I don't see how the "Collective" could have done any worse. My thinking
is
that when you get nothing trying something different is the only proper
course of action.

Hawke

So putting the failure called Communism in place would be a proper
course of action?

You are indeed a brainless ****wit.

Gunner

Look who's talking. From your own mouth you're a loser in the capitalism
game but you still think that's the best thing for you. Advocating a system
in which you can't win clearly demonstrates that your thinking is
irrational. If you were a successful capitalist it would make sense for you
to support that system, but you are one of the losers and yet you still
believe in a system you and the majority of Americans fail at. Now that's
what I call stupid. In fact you are so dumb that you need advice to tell you
to stop digging when you are already in a hole. Now that I think of it, I'm
not surprised you are an admitted failure at capitalism. You're too stupid
to succeed.

Hawke

Hawke wrote:
Gunner


Look who's talking. From your own mouth you're a loser in the capitalism
game but you still think that's the best thing for you. Advocating a system
in which you can't win clearly demonstrates that your thinking is
irrational. If you were a successful capitalist it would make sense for you
to support that system, but you are one of the losers and yet you still
believe in a system you and the majority of Americans fail at. Now that's
what I call stupid. In fact you are so dumb that you need advice to tell you
to stop digging when you are already in a hole.

Naah, Gunner owns land which is a major benefit in a capitalist society,
plus he has a **** load of machinery on it. At the worst, he has a nest
egg in scrap metal that is highly unlikely to loose value.

Also, metal working skills are becoming rarer, and so long as he has
his health, he can always turn something and earn a dollar. His welding
is another matter.

I suppose the worst thing that can happen to Gunner since he hates green
things is that he is gunna have to become a gardner and grow his own
food. {:-).