http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.
]

Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.
]


The Republican response: what's the problem this is a capitalist system,
it's their money, they earned it. They had a contract. They can't ever see
anything beyond that.

Hawke

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

Me.
Sue

"Sue" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

Me.
Sue


Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+
and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain
at that pay grade.
My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I
didn't.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Sue" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

Me.
Sue


Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+
and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain
at that pay grade.

I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I
made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT.

My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I
didn't.

I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid
implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO.
Sue

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

Here's a start:

Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid
public university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl
V. Patton of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman
of the University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third.

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.

Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH
better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000.

These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the
company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from
lamp posts on Wall Street.

In article , Jim Stewart says...

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester
(NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will
be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county
district attorney and claims that she needs protection.

She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard.

Probably she needs the protection because she's all
mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections.

Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for
a driver.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.

"Sue" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Sue" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

Me.
Sue


Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS
15+
and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a
bargain
at that pay grade.

I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I
made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT.

My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I
didn't.

I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid
implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO.

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension.
You'll need it.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

Kevin wrote:
No wonder tuition is so high
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

Jim Stewart wrote:

Cliff wrote:


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

Here's a start:

Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public
university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton
of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the
University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third.

They are definately NOT worth it.

No wonder tuition is so high
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

Here's a start:

Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public
university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton
of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the
University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third.

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.


Stuart,
You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and
illegal are two different thing.
The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They
always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want.
That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If
that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners
responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then - I'd
guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:06:49 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension.
You'll need it.

--
John R. Carroll

**** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been
for years.

I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I
managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of
pension, etc etc. No recourse.

You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would
have taken better care of me?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Sue

Just curious but what do you do where?

Bob AZ

Are they the highest paid individual at the school? What does the football
team coach make?
Don't tell me the president is overpaid. Try the job for once. Oh, and to
get it, you have to start with a prestigious PhD. and then struggle for
tenure, prior to getting into management.
They work.
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

Here's a start:

Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public
university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton
of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the
University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third.

Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.
]

These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits
and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation
makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of
that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million
dollar range. And what's wrong with that? A good performing CEO is worth
his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they
receive in compensation.

I agree that it is hard to question the pay of sucessfull CEO's. But
the web site Cliff sited had five that were well paid while the company
suffered. It also had five that were modestly paid while their
companies prospered.

Dan
JayCee wrote:


These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits
and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation
makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of
that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million
dollar range. And what's wrong with that? A good performing CEO is worth
his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they
receive in compensation.

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Jim Stewart says...


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester
(NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will
be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county
district attorney and claims that she needs protection.

She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard.

Probably she needs the protection because she's all
mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections.

Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for
a driver.

Jim



Thanks Jim! I don't feel so bad now. Just last night I was perusing the
county website listing of positions and salaries. I don't recall the
position at the moment, but the highest paid was barely under $190,000.
Then a few near $180k, numerically more at $170k, etc. Add the benefits
package and it gets more ridiculous. Also, several dept super positions
have something called "management leave". That amounts to additional
paid hours that are accrued based on the number of hours worked. In
other words, they get this for showing up! Most of these positions, if
not all, that recieve this extra paid time are salaried well over
$100,000. One would think that would be sufficient incentive to come to
work. Maybe even do an honest day of work, too.

mike

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
SNIP|
| These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
| company.
|
| Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH
| better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000.

I would love dearly to have a job like that.... yeah right. My wife
thinks so too, until I explain that it ain't no 9 to 5 job, and she'd rarely
see me. All it takes is _one_ executive to **** up, even in a very small
way, to cost thousands their jobs. My employer, Boeing, hired a woman right
after she gave the company some preferential treatment. That's one mistake.
They also hired her daughter and the daughter's boyfriend. The daughter
started the ball rolling. Said her mom wanted to work for Boeing because
she really "likes the integrity" of the company. I and many of my coworkers
had spent massive amounts of time helping to design and build that plane,
and were almost done with the first one (paid for out of the company's
pocket, to boot!) when that **** hit the fan. One sonuvabitch is all it
took. Phil Condit, an engineer who worked his way up to the top, got caught
banging his secretary (his predecessor had his pants down so often that a
large Seattle hotel remodeled a monster suite just for him and his rotating
lays) and that was enough, especially after we all just got done signing
ethics pledges. We all watched him sign it, too, on video, and that was
done for folks who think rules don't apply to the top. It was bad what he
did, but I'm glad he stepped down rather than **** up any more on the
company's behalf. I give him credit for that, although banging his
secretary isn't usually a firing offense in my book unless it affected his
ability to do his job.
On the other hand, janitors, if they **** up, nobody dies or loses their
jobs other than their own, at worst. I've seen gobs and gobs of "competent"
MBA's come through, starting out as managing a crew building the airplane.
Couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. One out of a dozen was
worth a ****. One. Last I heard he was a director after a few years.
Smart guys move up quick. I was glad to know him.
Many companies, when big sales are on the line, send out the CEO to do
business, and big clients like knowing that the very top is part of it.
Personal guarantee. I can easily imagine that one odd look will be enough
to blow a billion dollar sale. If he makes a deal that keeps the lines
humming for many more years, I don't have a problem paying him a great wage.
On the other hand, the CEO of a company had better not think of it as "his"
company, 'cuz I'll be in front of the line to kick his ass out.
I look at it this way: Pay equals performance equals pay. Anyone who's
worked in assorted jobs understands the value of good management and
leadership, and the critical nature of their skills as it relates to the
health of the company and its employees. You can also look at it this way.
Any company with a CEO has a board of directors. The board of directors are
voted in by the stockholders. Should the stockholders not like the course
of business, they can call on the directors to chop his head off. Should
the board of directors choose not to, then their own jobs are on the line.
Since they are also major stockholders, they stand to loose gobs of money
when bad things happen. Bill Gates has done a wonderful job of infiltrating
every segment of society with his software, and it has done many good things
for the world. Some bad, as debatable, but for the most part very good
things. Since he's done so well, I have no problem with him making as much
money as he does. I hear he's a bit of an ass, while Paul Allen is cool,
but his sister runs Vulcan enterprises and is the royal bitch of all
bitches. Obviously she didn't earn all Paul's money!
Everyone has a boss, you see, even if it _is_ the wife of the owner!

Jim,
I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell you:
1) For all you claim to know, why aren't you making in excess of $ 250,000 ?
2) The man is a Bodygaurd. Would you put your ass on the line for $ 250,000
?
3) You folks in Westchester pay exorbidant taxes, if you want to save money,
gut the "Free Cheese".
4) They are getting a good deal for $250,000. He is doing two jobs. Usually
there is a driver and a Bodyguard.
5) Why don't you try out for the Bodyguards job ? You too much of a pussy ?



The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester
(NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will
be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county
district attorney and claims that she needs protection.

She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard.

Probably she needs the protection because she's all
mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections.

Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for
a driver.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 27 Aug 2005 19:12:04 -0700, "Bob AZ" wrote:

Sue

Just curious but what do you do where?

I work in a welfare office in Merced County, CA. I determine who gets
what and how much (based on the regulations, of course). California's
welfare offices are county run, not state. I believe that in most
states public assistance offices are state run and therefore the
workers are state employees.
Sue


Bob AZ

In article , Kevin says...

Jim,
I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell you:

Why wait my friend, nobody else does. Feel free to vent your
spleen. Everyone else does.


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.

Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH
better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000.

These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the
company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from
lamp posts on Wall Street.

Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Right. They are in charge of making money. They are not in charge of
getting capital just for having capital, and not in charge of getting
labor just for employing employees. They are suppose to work in the
best interests of the owners of the company.

Of course being human they don't always do exactly that. Some look
after themselves first. Some just don't do well. So a corporation has
a board of directors, who are suppose to supervise the CEO's. Again
the boards are human and don't always do a great job.

The same applies to elected officials. Some act in the best interests
of the country. Some act in the best interests of the voters. Some
act to get the most votes. Others act in ways to get the most campaign
contributions.

Dan

jim rozen wrote:

You got that one wrong.

They're not in charge of employing workers.

They're in charge of making money. That's what corporations
are all about. First making money for themselves, second
for making money for the shareholders.

If they could provide ROI after they fired every single
employee who works for them, they would do that in a heartbeat.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.



These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike
went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion,
Fraud ( Trade Parking )

You can also easily search on the following for details.

Jeffrey Skilling, Enron.
Kenneth Lay, Enron.
Ivan Boesky, various closed funds.
Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd.
Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd.
Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd.
Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example
of greenmail.
Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end.
Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:06:49 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:




"Sue" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Sue" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.

Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?


How about 5 that aren't.

Me.
Sue


Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS
15+
and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a
bargain
at that pay grade.

I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I
made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT.

My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I
didn't.

I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid
implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO.

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets.

Not quite "on my own". If necessary "rescue" is close at hand (and
has been in the past). No substantial savings (raising four kids on
my own didn't really allow for that). Saved basically by an
inheritance which I used to almost buy my house (finally, at the age
of 52). Rents around here, even for a one bedroom apt in a decent
neighborhood, are about $800 p/mo. My house payment (which has an
escrow acct) is $435. Nice house, nice neighborhood, ridiculously
inflated value, no plan to sell.

That's not right. You probably see
exactly this every day at work.

The sad ones are those who seemingly did everything right - buying
nice home, lots of savings - that get hit with a catastrophic illness.

I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension.
You'll need it.

My employer is the county as is my pension. I don't know that Arnold
has much, if anything, to do with it. And, yes, I'll need it. 6
years to go! Having four kids wasn't the wisest thing to do, but it
increased my chances that one of them would grow up and earn enough or
marry enough money to support me in my old age. )
Sue

John R. Carroll wrote:
"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Cliff wrote:


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.




These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike
went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion,
Fraud ( Trade Parking )

You can also easily search on the following for details.

Jeffrey Skilling, Enron.
Kenneth Lay, Enron.
Ivan Boesky, various closed funds.
Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd.
Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd.
Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd.
Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example
of greenmail.
Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end.
Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances.


There are a few bad apples in every barrel. Corporate corruption is an
aberration, not the norm. Most CEOs are doing an outstanding job, and
they are worth every single penny they get.

In article . com,
says...

Of course being human they don't always do exactly that. Some look
after themselves first. Some just don't do well. So a corporation has
a board of directors, who are suppose to supervise the CEO's. Again
the boards are human and don't always do a great job.

However if you look at the makeup of the boards, they do tend to
be other CEOs of other corporations. It's a mutual back-scratching
thing.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"JayCee" wrote in message
nk.net...
John R. Carroll wrote:
"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Cliff wrote:


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.




These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken.
Mike
went for him.

Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion.
Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury,
conversion,
Fraud ( Trade Parking )

You can also easily search on the following for details.

Jeffrey Skilling, Enron.
Kenneth Lay, Enron.
Ivan Boesky, various closed funds.
Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd.
Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd.
Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd.
Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic
example
of greenmail.
Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the
end.
Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances.



There will always be a certain percentage of corporate bad actors for the
same reason that there will always be any other sort of criminal. There
isn't anything aberrant about it and the numbers do not constitute a large
percentage of what really is a pretty large group. Almost none of the green
mailers did anything illegal. Their actions were not especially constructive
but that isn't a concern. You work the system to get a return and that's it.

In 1996 a family owned injection molder in Southern California was sold, AB
Plastics. The owners wanted to cash out. The purchaser took the acquired
company public as Compass Plastics, pocketing 3 million dollars for himself
while the business went down the drain. The new group of officers took the
assets they wanted to the new facility they had set up in Mexico and
bankrupted the original company. The bankruptcy wiped out the pension
obligations of the original company, the value of the shareholders and debt
holders holdings and put several hundred Californians out of work. The
original seller lost a pile but had gotten a decent payout early on.
However, much of the original purchase was paid as stock in the new public
company and quickly became worthless, thereby wiping out 40 years of work on
the part of the founders and their employees. The remaining officers owned
the Mexican survivor and I think there were three or four individuals
involved. The original purchaser had executed this plan three times in the
previous ten year period.

None of what occurred was illegal. I had no financial interest in any of the
transactions involved. As far as I know the Mexican survivor is operating
today having been purchased by another group and cashing out all of the
original players.

Robert asked for some examples and I provided a few. There are many more if
he is interested in doing a little looking.
CEO's being overpaid is not, by definition, even possible.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:


Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect

that

the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That

simply

isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate

that.

You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see

the

opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much

more

important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an

inheritance

or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably

see

exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your

pension.

You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.



Stuart,
You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and
illegal are two different thing.
The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They
always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want.

No they don't. Some businesses set up stock programs where the company
buys stock and the board of directors control it and vote the stock. Of
course, they vote themselves their own jobs.

Since many retirement funds and mutual funds vote their shares in
proportion to the votes of other shareholders, these shares owned and
kept by the company leverage a larger percentage.

And when was the last time a board member up for election wasn't someone
picked by the board itself? They make the rules as to who can get on the
ballot, and unless some outsider buys a whole lot of shares, it's pretty
much closed to their plundering.

That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If
that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners
responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then - I'd
guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating.

JayCee wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer. ]


These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits
and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation
makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of
that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million
dollar range. And what's wrong with that?

First of all, the CEO is almost NEVER responsible for the profits.

Secondly, you can get a much better CEO for a lot cheaper than this.

Thirdly, the CEOS are picked by a bunch of racketters who should be
busted under the RICO statute.

A good performing CEO is worth
his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they
receive in compensation.

These particular CEOS were raking in millions of dollars and lost 3/4s
of the value of the company. In other words, they were incompetant as
well as overpaid.

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
m...

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to
6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.


Stuart,
You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical
and
illegal are two different thing.
The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation.
They
always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want.

Unfortunately not always true, and that's why corporate governance has been
an issue. The boards and CEOs have put self interest ahead of shareholder
interest in too many cases.






That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If
that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners
responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then -
I'd
guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

Which we now see in practice in the Oval Office.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get
the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the
hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the
company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

Kinda like Dubya's business ventures, except the ones the taxpayers
subsidized.


The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest
jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of
free people everywhere.

And friends of George!

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Cliff wrote:


http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs

Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their
companies suffer.


Good list, can't disagree. Now how about
finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid
civil servants?

These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the
company.

Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH
better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000.

These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the
company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from
lamp posts on Wall Street.


Can you give some specific example of this behavior
(plundering a company)?

Someone else provided many good examples of CEOs who were plundering the
company.

You also need to read the website. These guys were raking in tens of
millions of dollars even as they lost over 70% of the shareholder's
equity during times when the economy was doing good.

It's easy to claim it happens. I'd
like to see an example, with the name of the company and
what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to
it.

There was that guy at Boeing who Lockheed accused of being in on a deal
where they got preferential treatment from an air force buyer, and then
gave the air force buyer a nice VP job as payoff. Billions of taxpayer
money was wasted so these people can rake in a few millions. The CEO of
Boeing was pretty much untouchable, but you knew that the Air Force just
didn't trust him.

Then, suddenly, the CEO was fired for having an affair at some corporate
paid for drunken orgy, and then just days after he was fired, the Air
Force announced that it would do business with Boeing again.

Corrupt as hell. These guys plunder the company and the country.

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
m...

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

Sue,
Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are
no
different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the
effect
that
the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That
simply
isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate
that.
You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to
see
the
opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's
much
more
important in the grand scheme of things.
I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3
to
6
months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of
service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an
inheritance
or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You
probably
see
exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your
pension.
You'll need it.

One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA
program is how to do hit and run management.

You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to
get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and
get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job
before the company you plundered hits the dirt.

None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of
dollars. No way.

And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the
shareholders BIG TIME.

The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking
boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you
plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders.
These
people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest,
darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an
enemy of free people everywhere.


Stuart,
You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical
and
illegal are two different thing.
The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation.
They
always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want.

Unfortunately not always true, and that's why corporate governance has
been
an issue. The boards and CEOs have put self interest ahead of shareholder
interest in too many cases.


When they do they breach their duty as fiduciaries and commiting a crime.
This is one of two main reasons outside directors exist.
Small cap's or closely held corporations are another story. The tend to be
both nepotistic and incestuous.
In any event it's all priced into the market and flows out to the public as
increased costs to the consumers. A hidden tax if you will.
An entire industry has been built around insuring directors against the
litigation arising from unhappy shareholders.
There really isn't a level playing field in the equity markets and there
shouldn't be.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

In article , Stuart Grey says...

These particular CEOS were raking in millions of dollars and lost 3/4s
of the value of the company. In other words, they were incompetant as
well as overpaid.

Actually for skilling and lay, it was 100% of the company that was lost.

Skilling went from CEO to CFO and then jumped ship before the
fecal material hit the rotary oscillator however.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Sorry Jim. I was in a bad mood. You do offer up some great advice. We just
have different political views... Please accept my apology..
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Kevin says...

Jim,
I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell
you:

Why wait my friend, nobody else does. Feel free to vent your
spleen. Everyone else does.


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================