OT - overpaid CEOs
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820
[ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. ] |
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? |
[
The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. ] The Republican response: what's the problem this is a capitalist system, it's their money, they earned it. They had a contract. They can't ever see anything beyond that. Hawke |
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. Me. Sue |
"Sue" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. Me. Sue Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+ and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain at that pay grade. My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I didn't. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: "Sue" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. Me. Sue Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+ and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain at that pay grade. I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT. My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I didn't. I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO. Sue |
Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? Here's a start: Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third. |
Jim Stewart wrote:
Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000. These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from lamp posts on Wall Street. |
In article , Jim Stewart says...
Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester (NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county district attorney and claims that she needs protection. She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard. Probably she needs the protection because she's all mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections. Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for a driver. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
John R. Carroll wrote:
Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. |
"Sue" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Sue" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. Me. Sue Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+ and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain at that pay grade. I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT. My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I didn't. I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO. Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
Kevin wrote:
No wonder tuition is so high "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? Here's a start: Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third. They are definately NOT worth it. |
No wonder tuition is so high
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? Here's a start: Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third. |
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ... John R. Carroll wrote: Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. Stuart, You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and illegal are two different thing. The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want. That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then - I'd guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:06:49 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. -- John R. Carroll **** John..Im 4 service calls away from homelessness. And have been for years. I grossed about $27k last year with 25k in expensis. So whats new? I managed a business for 18 yrs, and when they sold out..I lost 18yrs of pension, etc etc. No recourse. You suggesting that some law was broken and that the Collective would have taken better care of me? Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Sue
Just curious but what do you do where? Bob AZ |
Are they the highest paid individual at the school? What does the football
team coach make? Don't tell me the president is overpaid. Try the job for once. Oh, and to get it, you have to start with a prestigious PhD. and then struggle for tenure, prior to getting into management. They work. "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? Here's a start: Mark A. Emmert of the University of Washington is the highest-paid public university president, earning $762,000 this academic year. Carl V. Patton of Georgia State, who receives $722,350, and Mary Sue Coleman of the University of Michigan, who receives $677,500, rank second and third. |
Cliff wrote:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. ] These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million dollar range. And what's wrong with that? A good performing CEO is worth his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they receive in compensation. |
I agree that it is hard to question the pay of sucessfull CEO's. But
the web site Cliff sited had five that were well paid while the company suffered. It also had five that were modestly paid while their companies prospered. Dan JayCee wrote: These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million dollar range. And what's wrong with that? A good performing CEO is worth his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they receive in compensation. |
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Jim Stewart says... Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester (NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county district attorney and claims that she needs protection. She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard. Probably she needs the protection because she's all mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections. Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for a driver. Jim Thanks Jim! I don't feel so bad now. Just last night I was perusing the county website listing of positions and salaries. I don't recall the position at the moment, but the highest paid was barely under $190,000. Then a few near $180k, numerically more at $170k, etc. Add the benefits package and it gets more ridiculous. Also, several dept super positions have something called "management leave". That amounts to additional paid hours that are accrued based on the number of hours worked. In other words, they get this for showing up! Most of these positions, if not all, that recieve this extra paid time are salaried well over $100,000. One would think that would be sufficient incentive to come to work. Maybe even do an honest day of work, too. mike |
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
... SNIP| | These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the | company. | | Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH | better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000. I would love dearly to have a job like that.... yeah right. My wife thinks so too, until I explain that it ain't no 9 to 5 job, and she'd rarely see me. All it takes is _one_ executive to **** up, even in a very small way, to cost thousands their jobs. My employer, Boeing, hired a woman right after she gave the company some preferential treatment. That's one mistake. They also hired her daughter and the daughter's boyfriend. The daughter started the ball rolling. Said her mom wanted to work for Boeing because she really "likes the integrity" of the company. I and many of my coworkers had spent massive amounts of time helping to design and build that plane, and were almost done with the first one (paid for out of the company's pocket, to boot!) when that **** hit the fan. One sonuvabitch is all it took. Phil Condit, an engineer who worked his way up to the top, got caught banging his secretary (his predecessor had his pants down so often that a large Seattle hotel remodeled a monster suite just for him and his rotating lays) and that was enough, especially after we all just got done signing ethics pledges. We all watched him sign it, too, on video, and that was done for folks who think rules don't apply to the top. It was bad what he did, but I'm glad he stepped down rather than **** up any more on the company's behalf. I give him credit for that, although banging his secretary isn't usually a firing offense in my book unless it affected his ability to do his job. On the other hand, janitors, if they **** up, nobody dies or loses their jobs other than their own, at worst. I've seen gobs and gobs of "competent" MBA's come through, starting out as managing a crew building the airplane. Couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. One out of a dozen was worth a ****. One. Last I heard he was a director after a few years. Smart guys move up quick. I was glad to know him. Many companies, when big sales are on the line, send out the CEO to do business, and big clients like knowing that the very top is part of it. Personal guarantee. I can easily imagine that one odd look will be enough to blow a billion dollar sale. If he makes a deal that keeps the lines humming for many more years, I don't have a problem paying him a great wage. On the other hand, the CEO of a company had better not think of it as "his" company, 'cuz I'll be in front of the line to kick his ass out. I look at it this way: Pay equals performance equals pay. Anyone who's worked in assorted jobs understands the value of good management and leadership, and the critical nature of their skills as it relates to the health of the company and its employees. You can also look at it this way. Any company with a CEO has a board of directors. The board of directors are voted in by the stockholders. Should the stockholders not like the course of business, they can call on the directors to chop his head off. Should the board of directors choose not to, then their own jobs are on the line. Since they are also major stockholders, they stand to loose gobs of money when bad things happen. Bill Gates has done a wonderful job of infiltrating every segment of society with his software, and it has done many good things for the world. Some bad, as debatable, but for the most part very good things. Since he's done so well, I have no problem with him making as much money as he does. I hear he's a bit of an ass, while Paul Allen is cool, but his sister runs Vulcan enterprises and is the royal bitch of all bitches. Obviously she didn't earn all Paul's money! Everyone has a boss, you see, even if it _is_ the wife of the owner! |
Jim,
I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell you: 1) For all you claim to know, why aren't you making in excess of $ 250,000 ? 2) The man is a Bodygaurd. Would you put your ass on the line for $ 250,000 ? 3) You folks in Westchester pay exorbidant taxes, if you want to save money, gut the "Free Cheese". 4) They are getting a good deal for $250,000. He is doing two jobs. Usually there is a driver and a Bodyguard. 5) Why don't you try out for the Bodyguards job ? You too much of a pussy ? The single highest-paid public employee in Westchester (NY) county is Janine Piro's bodyguard/driver, who will be earning about $250K this year. Piro is the county district attorney and claims that she needs protection. She's the only DA in all of NY state with a bodyguard. Probably she needs the protection because she's all mobbed up. Not suprising given her husband's connections. Still a quarter million dollars per year is a lot for a driver. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
On 27 Aug 2005 19:12:04 -0700, "Bob AZ" wrote:
Sue Just curious but what do you do where? I work in a welfare office in Merced County, CA. I determine who gets what and how much (based on the regulations, of course). California's welfare offices are county run, not state. I believe that in most states public assistance offices are state run and therefore the workers are state employees. Sue Bob AZ |
In article , Kevin says...
Jim, I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell you: Why wait my friend, nobody else does. Feel free to vent your spleen. Everyone else does. -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000. These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from lamp posts on Wall Street. Can you give some specific example of this behavior (plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd like to see an example, with the name of the company and what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to it. -- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria. http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/ |
Right. They are in charge of making money. They are not in charge of
getting capital just for having capital, and not in charge of getting labor just for employing employees. They are suppose to work in the best interests of the owners of the company. Of course being human they don't always do exactly that. Some look after themselves first. Some just don't do well. So a corporation has a board of directors, who are suppose to supervise the CEO's. Again the boards are human and don't always do a great job. The same applies to elected officials. Some act in the best interests of the country. Some act in the best interests of the voters. Some act to get the most votes. Others act in ways to get the most campaign contributions. Dan jim rozen wrote: You got that one wrong. They're not in charge of employing workers. They're in charge of making money. That's what corporations are all about. First making money for themselves, second for making money for the shareholders. If they could provide ROI after they fired every single employee who works for them, they would do that in a heartbeat. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Can you give some specific example of this behavior (plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd like to see an example, with the name of the company and what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to it. These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike went for him. Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion, Fraud ( Trade Parking ) You can also easily search on the following for details. Jeffrey Skilling, Enron. Kenneth Lay, Enron. Ivan Boesky, various closed funds. Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd. Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd. Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd. Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example of greenmail. Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end. Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:06:49 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: "Sue" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:48:26 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Sue" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:20:57 GMT, "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? How about 5 that aren't. Me. Sue Let me rephrase it then. 5 that are well paid - let's set the bar at GS 15+ and see if you are in that group- , what they do and why they are a bargain at that pay grade. I'm not federal so there's no GS anything. After 18 years at my job I made really close to $40,000 last year, but that was with lots of OT. My question/comment was poorly worded. You thought I meant low wage and I didn't. I thought you meant a list of 5 civil servants who *aren't* overpaid implying that they all are. I'm neither over nor under paid IMHO. Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. Not quite "on my own". If necessary "rescue" is close at hand (and has been in the past). No substantial savings (raising four kids on my own didn't really allow for that). Saved basically by an inheritance which I used to almost buy my house (finally, at the age of 52). Rents around here, even for a one bedroom apt in a decent neighborhood, are about $800 p/mo. My house payment (which has an escrow acct) is $435. Nice house, nice neighborhood, ridiculously inflated value, no plan to sell. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. The sad ones are those who seemingly did everything right - buying nice home, lots of savings - that get hit with a catastrophic illness. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. My employer is the county as is my pension. I don't know that Arnold has much, if anything, to do with it. And, yes, I'll need it. 6 years to go! Having four kids wasn't the wisest thing to do, but it increased my chances that one of them would grow up and earn enough or marry enough money to support me in my old age. :o) Sue |
John R. Carroll wrote:
"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Can you give some specific example of this behavior (plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd like to see an example, with the name of the company and what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to it. These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike went for him. Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion, Fraud ( Trade Parking ) You can also easily search on the following for details. Jeffrey Skilling, Enron. Kenneth Lay, Enron. Ivan Boesky, various closed funds. Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd. Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd. Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd. Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example of greenmail. Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end. Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances. There are a few bad apples in every barrel. Corporate corruption is an aberration, not the norm. Most CEOs are doing an outstanding job, and they are worth every single penny they get. |
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"JayCee" wrote in message nk.net... John R. Carroll wrote: "Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here's the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Can you give some specific example of this behavior (plundering a company)? It's easy to claim it happens. I'd like to see an example, with the name of the company and what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to it. These have either gone or are going to jail except for Lowell Milken. Mike went for him. Dennis Kozloski, Tyco. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Bernie Ebbers, WorldCom. Theft. Fraud, Conversion. Michael Milken and his brother Lowell, Drexel Burnham. Perjury, conversion, Fraud ( Trade Parking ) You can also easily search on the following for details. Jeffrey Skilling, Enron. Kenneth Lay, Enron. Ivan Boesky, various closed funds. Thomas Case, Global Crossing Ltd. Joseph Perrone, Global Crossing Ltd. Dan Cohrs, Global Crossing Ltd. Sir James Goldsmith, Various, but his run at Good Year is a classic example of greenmail. Ronald Perlman, another green mailer. He did end up with Revlon in the end. Over the years Robert, there have been literally hundreds of instances. There will always be a certain percentage of corporate bad actors for the same reason that there will always be any other sort of criminal. There isn't anything aberrant about it and the numbers do not constitute a large percentage of what really is a pretty large group. Almost none of the green mailers did anything illegal. Their actions were not especially constructive but that isn't a concern. You work the system to get a return and that's it. In 1996 a family owned injection molder in Southern California was sold, AB Plastics. The owners wanted to cash out. The purchaser took the acquired company public as Compass Plastics, pocketing 3 million dollars for himself while the business went down the drain. The new group of officers took the assets they wanted to the new facility they had set up in Mexico and bankrupted the original company. The bankruptcy wiped out the pension obligations of the original company, the value of the shareholders and debt holders holdings and put several hundred Californians out of work. The original seller lost a pile but had gotten a decent payout early on. However, much of the original purchase was paid as stock in the new public company and quickly became worthless, thereby wiping out 40 years of work on the part of the founders and their employees. The remaining officers owned the Mexican survivor and I think there were three or four individuals involved. The original purchaser had executed this plan three times in the previous ten year period. None of what occurred was illegal. I had no financial interest in any of the transactions involved. As far as I know the Mexican survivor is operating today having been purchased by another group and cashing out all of the original players. Robert asked for some examples and I provided a few. There are many more if he is interested in doing a little looking. CEO's being overpaid is not, by definition, even possible. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
John R. Carroll wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ... John R. Carroll wrote: Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. Stuart, You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and illegal are two different thing. The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want. No they don't. Some businesses set up stock programs where the company buys stock and the board of directors control it and vote the stock. Of course, they vote themselves their own jobs. Since many retirement funds and mutual funds vote their shares in proportion to the votes of other shareholders, these shares owned and kept by the company leverage a larger percentage. And when was the last time a board member up for election wasn't someone picked by the board itself? They make the rules as to who can get on the ballot, and unless some outsider buys a whole lot of shares, it's pretty much closed to their plundering. That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then - I'd guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating. |
JayCee wrote:
Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. ] These CEOs are responsible for generating millions of dollars in profits and they keep tens of thousands of workers employed. If a corporation makes, let's say, 10 billion in profit in a given year, then the CEO of that corporation deserves to be paid a salary in the 50 to 100 million dollar range. And what's wrong with that? First of all, the CEO is almost NEVER responsible for the profits. Secondly, you can get a much better CEO for a lot cheaper than this. Thirdly, the CEOS are picked by a bunch of racketters who should be busted under the RICO statute. A good performing CEO is worth his or her weight in gold, and they deserve every cent of what they receive in compensation. These particular CEOS were raking in millions of dollars and lost 3/4s of the value of the company. In other words, they were incompetant as well as overpaid. |
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message m... "Stuart Grey" wrote in message ... John R. Carroll wrote: Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. Stuart, You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and illegal are two different thing. The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want. Unfortunately not always true, and that's why corporate governance has been an issue. The boards and CEOs have put self interest ahead of shareholder interest in too many cases. That is really the key you know. Greedy owners beget greedy management. If that weren't true, hit and run wouldn't work. One fix is to make owners responsible for the outcome - personally. You'd get good behavior then - I'd guaranty it. This model gets that result everywhere it is operating. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ... John R. Carroll wrote: Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. Which we now see in practice in the Oval Office. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. Kinda like Dubya's business ventures, except the ones the taxpayers subsidized. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. And friends of George! |
Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:50 -0700, Stuart Grey wrote: Jim Stewart wrote: Cliff wrote: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=6820 [ The 5 most outrageously overpaid CEOs Here’s the pantheon of execs whose paychecks soar while their companies suffer. Good list, can't disagree. Now how about finding us a list of the 5 most over-paid civil servants? These are examples of how the laws allow a conspiracy to plunder the company. Lets face it, a good, competant MBA could manage these companies MUCH better and would probably feel overpaid at $250,000. These idiots plunder the stockholders at a 40 M$ pay, and then screw the company over. Criminal. Gut 'em and hang 'em with their own guts from lamp posts on Wall Street. Can you give some specific example of this behavior (plundering a company)? Someone else provided many good examples of CEOs who were plundering the company. You also need to read the website. These guys were raking in tens of millions of dollars even as they lost over 70% of the shareholder's equity during times when the economy was doing good. It's easy to claim it happens. I'd like to see an example, with the name of the company and what it is the evil executives are supposed to have done to it. There was that guy at Boeing who Lockheed accused of being in on a deal where they got preferential treatment from an air force buyer, and then gave the air force buyer a nice VP job as payoff. Billions of taxpayer money was wasted so these people can rake in a few millions. The CEO of Boeing was pretty much untouchable, but you knew that the Air Force just didn't trust him. Then, suddenly, the CEO was fired for having an affair at some corporate paid for drunken orgy, and then just days after he was fired, the Air Force announced that it would do business with Boeing again. Corrupt as hell. These guys plunder the company and the country. |
"ATP*" wrote in message ... "John R. Carroll" wrote in message m... "Stuart Grey" wrote in message ... John R. Carroll wrote: Sue, Any large organization has high and low value emps. Governments are no different in this regard. I here a lot of blow hard talk to the effect that the government work force is useless and overpaid at any price. That simply isn't true and I wondered if it wouldn't be productive to demonstrate that. You here a lot about 200k per year tit's on a bull but it's rare to see the opposite. Must not be as news worthy as Natalie Holloway but it's much more important in the grand scheme of things. I will say this, however. At 40K and living where you do, you are 3 to 6 months from homelessness, public assistance or both after 18 years of service. At least you are if you are on your own and absent an inheritance or really substantial savings or assets. That's not right. You probably see exactly this every day at work. I hope Arnold doesn't **** up your pension. You'll need it. One of the things taught by the Harvard Business School in their MBA program is how to do hit and run management. You literally hand the shareholder's equity back to the shareholder to get the stock price up. Then you take your bonus and stock options and get the hell out of dodge and move up the ladder to your next CEO job before the company you plundered hits the dirt. None of these nitwits, and they are nitwits, is worth multimillions of dollars. No way. And if you look at these particular five, they have lost money for the shareholders BIG TIME. The reasons why they can do it is because of things like interlocking boards of directors (you help me plunder my company, and I'll help you plunder yours) and set ups to thwart the will of the shareholders. These people are flat out criminals who should be thrown in the deepest, darkest jails, they are a true threat to our capitalist economy, and an enemy of free people everywhere. Stuart, You won't get much of an argument from me beyond the fact that unethical and illegal are two different thing. The boards of directors acts for the share holders in any corporation. They always reflect whatever the actual owners think they want. Unfortunately not always true, and that's why corporate governance has been an issue. The boards and CEOs have put self interest ahead of shareholder interest in too many cases. When they do they breach their duty as fiduciaries and commiting a crime. This is one of two main reasons outside directors exist. Small cap's or closely held corporations are another story. The tend to be both nepotistic and incestuous. In any event it's all priced into the market and flows out to the public as increased costs to the consumers. A hidden tax if you will. An entire industry has been built around insuring directors against the litigation arising from unhappy shareholders. There really isn't a level playing field in the equity markets and there shouldn't be. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
In article , Stuart Grey says...
These particular CEOS were raking in millions of dollars and lost 3/4s of the value of the company. In other words, they were incompetant as well as overpaid. Actually for skilling and lay, it was 100% of the company that was lost. Skilling went from CEO to CFO and then jumped ship before the fecal material hit the rotary oscillator however. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Sorry Jim. I was in a bad mood. You do offer up some great advice. We just
have different political views... Please accept my apology.. "jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Kevin says... Jim, I've been reading your BS for years and finally have something to tell you: Why wait my friend, nobody else does. Feel free to vent your spleen. Everyone else does. -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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