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Best Machining Proceedure/Method???
Dear All:
I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg You can see the collar on the upper right part has been cut ~90°. I've been thinking of using a 5C collect in one of those cheap spin indexers you can get at ENCO for ~$30. The collar is less than .250" thick by ~ 1" wide, material is silicon bronze. I'm a little concerned about controlling the part as I spin it by hand since the spin of the indexer is direct without gears and can (I think) move freely front to back while spinning). A photo of the spin indexer can be seen here; http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=235-6011 The only other solution the I can think of, for a professional looking finish at least, would be to use a $$$ super spacer or to buy a chuck to mount on my rotary table with the 3MT center (which has it's own problems of set up time and PITA factor). Thanks, John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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John Flanagan wrote:
I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he Does the part really have to look that way? I would say that the designer has only seen a shop from the outside. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models: http://www.motor-manufaktur.de Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic more to come ... |
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In article , John Flanagan says...
Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg If you had a lot of them to do, I would consider making a profiled plain milling cutter (to match the smaller diameter) and then simply do the entire piece with one pass on a horizontal. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#5
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On 15 Aug 2005 11:25:45 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: In article , John Flanagan says... Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg If you had a lot of them to do, I would consider making a profiled plain milling cutter (to match the smaller diameter) and then simply do the entire piece with one pass on a horizontal. Good idea Jim. But I will probably be doing only 4-8 at a time maybe once or twice a month. Thanks anyway, John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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John Flanagan wrote: http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg Now thats an interesting piece, First off, how accurate does the cut out section need to be? Is it 90 degrees plus or minus 10 degrees? 10 minutes? Second, how many do you have to produce? If it is a high accuracy part I would probably say some interesting form grinding would be in order. Perhaps dress a wheel with a concave radius and run it into the part longitudinally while holding the part (Somehow) on a mandrel. Other than that I can't be of much help here. Never worked with that material either. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=235-6011 I can be of some help here. This tool sucks. I have one, I hate it. I would kill for a Harig. Jim Lurker Extraordinaire... |
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John Flanagan wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:24:27 +0200, (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nick_M=FCller?=) wrote: John Flanagan wrote: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he Does the part really have to look that way? I would say that the designer has only seen a shop from the outside. Ow, that hurts :^). But yes, it does. The part rotates in a sleeve. The 90° cutout allows the part to rotate but it's rotation is limited by a pin placed in the sleeve. I've made these before just by chucking it in a fixed 5C holder on the mill and by unchucking, rotating a little and then rechucking. Time consuming PITRE plus it makes an ugly faceted surface. I was looking for some method that would be faster and give a nice smooth surface where the cutout meets the cylinder. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. If the pin is round then the edges of the cut don't have to be square, right? I've seen a method where you mill on the end of a piece while rotating it a controlled amount -- that sounds bad, let's try again: * Use a milling cutter the same size or a bit smaller than your pin. * Chuck the piece up in something that'll let it rotate, on an axis parallel to the round axis of the piece and your milling cutter. * Have stops that'll keep you from going to far in either direction. * Use a _long_ handle (since you don't want to use a rotary table). * Advance the piece into the mill, so the flange has a square side and a round bottom -- ooh pictures would be nice here, wouldn't they? * Rotate the part through to the other stop. Having the mill climb will keep you out of danger (why don't you want a rotary table?). * Back the piece out of the mill, for another square side. Somewhere on http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html there's a discussion of how to make nice round ends on model engine connecting rods this way. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... Somewhere on http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html there's a discussion of how to make nice round ends on model engine connecting rods this way. Also a nice description in one of the Machinist's Bedside Readers. LLoyd |
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John Flanagan wrote:
Ow, that hurts :^). But yes, it does. You really can't change it to look that way? http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/rcmtemp/sleve.jpg You would save a lot of time avoiding the sharp corners where the partial ring joins the cylindrical part. You also avoid a lot of nasty precise setup if there is a bit of land left between that what you intend to mill away and the cylinder. The part rotates in a sleeve. The 90° cutout allows the part to rotate but it's rotation is limited by a pin placed in the sleeve. How's the pin oriented? parallel to the cylinder's axis? You also could turn rings on your lathe, mill off the 90°, part off "shims" with a circular saw (in the mill) and brace that 270° ring to a plain cylinder. Least work, I guess. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models: http://www.motor-manufaktur.de Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic more to come ... |
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jim rozen wrote:
John Flanagan says... Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg If you had a lot of them to do, I would consider making a profiled plain milling cutter (to match the smaller diameter) and then simply do the entire piece with one pass on a horizontal. That would have to be a milling cutter on a horizontal arbor, of course, and it would likely cost you about as much to have that cutter made as it would to buy what I would consider the correct tool, a rotary table. If it isn't a H/V model, it can be clamped to an angle plate. The RT should have a chuck on it. Set it up once, then machine your part, pop it out, pop in another one, and go. GWE |
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#11
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In article , John Flanagan says...
If you had a lot of them to do, I would consider making a profiled plain milling cutter (to match the smaller diameter) and then simply do the entire piece with one pass on a horizontal. Good idea Jim. But I will probably be doing only 4-8 at a time maybe once or twice a month. You could start with a simple 90 degree V-cutter, and then form grind the tip of the V out, as a radius. Plain milling cutters are cheap. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Tim Wescott wrote:
John Flanagan wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:24:27 +0200, (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nick_M=FCller?=) wrote: John Flanagan wrote: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he Does the part really have to look that way? I would say that the designer has only seen a shop from the outside. Ow, that hurts :^). But yes, it does. The part rotates in a sleeve. The 90° cutout allows the part to rotate but it's rotation is limited by a pin placed in the sleeve. I've made these before just by chucking it in a fixed 5C holder on the mill and by unchucking, rotating a little and then rechucking. Time consuming PITRE plus it makes an ugly faceted surface. I was looking for some method that would be faster and give a nice smooth surface where the cutout meets the cylinder. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. If the pin is round then the edges of the cut don't have to be square, right? I've seen a method where you mill on the end of a piece while rotating it a controlled amount -- that sounds bad, let's try again: * Use a milling cutter the same size or a bit smaller than your pin. * Chuck the piece up in something that'll let it rotate, on an axis parallel to the round axis of the piece and your milling cutter. * Have stops that'll keep you from going to far in either direction. * Use a _long_ handle (since you don't want to use a rotary table). * Advance the piece into the mill, so the flange has a square side and a round bottom -- ooh pictures would be nice here, wouldn't they? * Rotate the part through to the other stop. Having the mill climb will keep you out of danger (why don't you want a rotary table?). * Back the piece out of the mill, for another square side. Somewhere on http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html there's a discussion of how to make nice round ends on model engine connecting rods this way. http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html, look at picture 41 and it's caption. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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#14
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John Flanagan wrote:
Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg You can see the collar on the upper right part has been cut ~90°. I've been thinking of using a 5C collect in one of those cheap spin indexers you can get at ENCO for ~$30. The collar is less than .250" thick by ~ 1" wide, material is silicon bronze. I'm a little concerned about controlling the part as I spin it by hand since the spin of the indexer is direct without gears and can (I think) move freely front to back while spinning). A photo of the spin indexer can be seen here; The only part you are scratching your head over is the 90-degree cutout in the collar, right? If you had a true indexer with a plate, and hole pattern divisible by 4: Chuck the part into the indexer Place two pins to limit rotation to 90 degrees Mount to your mill table Use a standard endmill to cut out the gap. Move the table/workpiece longitudinally to square each end. I notice that cheap spin indexer has radial holes in the large plate. If you can place pins 90 degrees apart so that they hit another fixed pin/blade, you can accomplish the same thing. In other words, what you are suggesting to use may work, but a true indexer has additional controls that make this easy. Note that an indexer with holes spaced 90 degrees apart may not produce an exact 90-degree arc, due to the thickness of the pins. If you need an exact arc, you can make pins of a diameter that will give you the exact 90 degrees. Of course, you have the same issue with the pins on the device, so it may be a wash. |
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#15
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If at all possible avoid the sharp inside corner. If any impact
at all part will start to crack there. Also hard to machine. How big a radius can you stand? If you have rotary table and milling capability it should be possible to do with an end mill. Also how many parts? GmcD On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:54:29 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:24:27 +0200, (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nick_M=FCller?=) wrote: John Flanagan wrote: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he Does the part really have to look that way? I would say that the designer has only seen a shop from the outside. Ow, that hurts :^). But yes, it does. The part rotates in a sleeve. The 90° cutout allows the part to rotate but it's rotation is limited by a pin placed in the sleeve. I've made these before just by chucking it in a fixed 5C holder on the mill and by unchucking, rotating a little and then rechucking. Time consuming PITRE plus it makes an ugly faceted surface. I was looking for some method that would be faster and give a nice smooth surface where the cutout meets the cylinder. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#16
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If at all possible avoid the sharp inside corner. If any impact
at all part will start to crack there. Also hard to machine. How big a radius can you stand? If you have rotary table and milling capability it should be possible to do with an end mill. Most of the spindex units I have seen have a color that can prevent in/out movement. If you are careful to always do a conventional cut and possibly add a long handle you should be able to rig up this up as a lathe job. You can put a piece of 1 inch or larger rod in the chuck and drill/ream a 3/8 hole to fit the shank of an end mill. Drill/tap for set screw for weldon shank before you clamp in chuck to preserve run-out accuracy. Also how many parts? GmcD On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:54:29 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:24:27 +0200, (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nick_M=FCller?=) wrote: John Flanagan wrote: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he Does the part really have to look that way? I would say that the designer has only seen a shop from the outside. Ow, that hurts :^). But yes, it does. The part rotates in a sleeve. The 90° cutout allows the part to rotate but it's rotation is limited by a pin placed in the sleeve. I've made these before just by chucking it in a fixed 5C holder on the mill and by unchucking, rotating a little and then rechucking. Time consuming PITRE plus it makes an ugly faceted surface. I was looking for some method that would be faster and give a nice smooth surface where the cutout meets the cylinder. John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#17
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Given that you have a rotary table and that you're cutting phosphor bronze,
I would strongly recommend not using a spin fixture. Although I've never machined silicon bronze before, I would assume it's probably at least somewhat grabby. You're going to have a tough time controlling your feed. You'll probably end up breaking cutters and you may smash a finger or two. You would _never_ see me or one of my coworkers doing this at work, ever. If you don't want to buy a chuck for your rotary table, and you only have to do 4-8 pieces/month, one or two setups/month, I would use a v-block. Simply indicate the rotary table to your spindle, and then the part (now clamped in a v-block which is lightly clamped to the table) to the spindle as well. If you don't like the idea of having only one screw clamping directly on your part, some soft jaws in a simple clamping mechanism could be made. If you're getting paid for your time, a cheap chuck is probably cheaper, but perhaps not if you're quick. Ned's idea is a good one. Sometimes collets are a bit funky to deal with as far as adequate clamping pressure - esspecially on bearing materials. Once your setup is done, the cutting time should be minimal, on the order of 60 seconds/pass. You should have no trouble roughing and finishing with the same cutter. Switching parts would take roughly 30 seconds, including brushing the chips off the block between parts. Resetting the machine after each part would take about 30 seconds. Total cycle time should be 3 minutes. Setup would probably be about 60 minutes, start to finish. This all assumes you don't want sharp internal corners. Regards, Robin "John Flanagan" wrote in message ... Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg You can see the collar on the upper right part has been cut ~90°. I've been thinking of using a 5C collect in one of those cheap spin indexers you can get at ENCO for ~$30. The collar is less than .250" thick by ~ 1" wide, material is silicon bronze. I'm a little concerned about controlling the part as I spin it by hand since the spin of the indexer is direct without gears and can (I think) move freely front to back while spinning). A photo of the spin indexer can be seen here; http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=235-6011 The only other solution the I can think of, for a professional looking finish at least, would be to use a $$$ super spacer or to buy a chuck to mount on my rotary table with the 3MT center (which has it's own problems of set up time and PITA factor). Thanks, John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#18
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(John Flanagan) wrote in
: Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...al%20Sleeve%20 RFS.jpg Question 1: Is the sharp corner absolutely required at the bottom of the cut? If not, a 5C collet holder mounted vertically on the table and do a cir interp. If the corner is really required, then a 5C collet on the table and cir interp, then broach/file the corner in. -- Anthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/ |
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#19
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fixture a pin on a rotary table mounted flat on the mill table
get a 4 or 6 inch phase 2 type table , relatively priced clamp your bushing in the vertical orientation with a custom pin and bolt to make rigid mill out the 90 degrees using a 3/8 end mill by side milling in and then rotating the table 90 leave a little to clean up change to an 1/8 or 3/16 endmill and finish the cut will leave a very small radius in the corners , good for strength after initial fixturing , should take less than 5 minutes each in a Bridgeport could do it in a shaper could do it in a cnc mill don't leave a sharp corner finish the bore after cutting the notch for best results |
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#20
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Part can be held in mill vice . Holding on the ends of part with a bit more
than half sticking above jaws. Then you can use a end mill with a radius that matches the OD of part . You need a Tool and cutter grinding shop to grind correct radius. Unless it is a standard size. You will have sharp corners like your drawing. You can put two pins in vise to be sure parts repeat. I went out to the shop and cut a sample part in about 20 min. Send me email address and I'll email pictures. Jim "John Flanagan" wrote in message ... Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...eeve%20RFS.jpg You can see the collar on the upper right part has been cut ~90°. I've been thinking of using a 5C collect in one of those cheap spin indexers you can get at ENCO for ~$30. The collar is less than .250" thick by ~ 1" wide, material is silicon bronze. I'm a little concerned about controlling the part as I spin it by hand since the spin of the indexer is direct without gears and can (I think) move freely front to back while spinning). A photo of the spin indexer can be seen here; http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=235-6011 The only other solution the I can think of, for a professional looking finish at least, would be to use a $$$ super spacer or to buy a chuck to mount on my rotary table with the 3MT center (which has it's own problems of set up time and PITA factor). Thanks, John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#21
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:19:37 -0700, the opaque Tim Wescott
clearly wrote: Somewhere on http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html there's a discussion of how to make nice round ends on model engine connecting rods this way. http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html, look at picture 41 and it's caption. OK, you got me, Tim. I counted and there are only 14 pics on that page. Then I checked the source (for both frames) and there is no reference to "picture" or "41" anywhere on the page. Hmmm... WHAP!  - Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming |
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#22
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(John Flanagan) wrote in
: Dear All: I've got a part I need to machine (repeatedly) and was wondering if anyone might make a suggestion for an effective and inexpensive method. A photo of the cut that needs to be made can be found he http://vulcan.blacksburg.net/~flanag...al%20Sleeve%20 RFS.jpg You can see the collar on the upper right part has been cut ~90°. I've been thinking of using a 5C collect in one of those cheap spin indexers you can get at ENCO for ~$30. The collar is less than .250" thick by ~ 1" wide, material is silicon bronze. I'm a little concerned about controlling the part as I spin it by hand since the spin of the indexer is direct without gears and can (I think) move freely front to back while spinning). A photo of the spin indexer can be seen here; http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=235-6011 The only other solution the I can think of, for a professional looking finish at least, would be to use a $$$ super spacer or to buy a chuck to mount on my rotary table with the 3MT center (which has it's own problems of set up time and PITA factor). John, I've machine loads of parts using a spin indexer in just that way. I used to work at a company that made bayonette lock connectors. I used to hollow mill the posts then mill the remaining material away using a 5C indexer. The forces are low, and if you go slow and controlled it's quite safe. We had a Hardinge indexer and you could set it so it would stop at the right degree. Plus it has a lever for indexing which probably would have a better "feel" than the handle on the back. But there is no reason the Enco one won't work. Using this method you will still get a radius in the surface of the part where you are milling the shoulder away. If you want a nice blended surface, consider making or buying a form cutter with the radius of the part ground into it. Think of a key cutter with the radius of the part ground into the teeth. -- Dan |
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#23
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"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... snip------ Having the mill climb will keep you out of danger (why don't you want a rotary table?). Want to take another stab at that, Tim? Climb milling is extremely dangerous---causing the cutter to self feed. Do you have the concept backwards in your mind? Harold |
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#24
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In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... snip------ Having the mill climb will keep you out of danger (why don't you want a rotary table?). Want to take another stab at that, Tim? Climb milling is extremely dangerous---causing the cutter to self feed. Do you have the concept backwards in your mind? I'm glad that you caught that. I was checking to see whether someone had caught it before I posted. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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#25
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:19:37 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote: http://staff.dstc.edu.au/chernich/ron/index.html, look at picture 41 and it's caption. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com You must be from somewhere else.... I couldn't find a "picture 41" on this page. Is it near "area 51" :^)? John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#26
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:47:00 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote: If you've got a collet block and a rotary table, perhaps this setup, which happens to be on my rotary table right now, would work. Shown with the table rotated in two positions. http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...eadDieSet1.JPG http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...eadDieSet2.JPG A v-block is clamped to the rotary table and a square collet block is held in the v-block by the machinist clamp. The collet block is mounted with enough room underneath to tighten the collet without disturbing the block. I've been using it to make variations of this prototype part on a BP... http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmons/news/HeadDie.jpg Too much work!!! I'm looking for something for the lazy man :^)! Quick, simple, good enough for government work..... (no heavy lifting a big plus). John Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get. So please respond to this message through the newsgroup. |
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#28
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"John Flanagan" wrote in message ... On 16 Aug 2005 01:32:52 -0400, (DoN. Nichols) wrote: In article , Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... snip------ Having the mill climb will keep you out of danger (why don't you want a rotary table?). Want to take another stab at that, Tim? Climb milling is extremely dangerous---causing the cutter to self feed. Do you have the concept backwards in your mind? I'm glad that you caught that. I was checking to see whether someone had caught it before I posted. If I can keep the cutter centered in the middle of the collar (while rotating) I don't think climb cutting would be an issue since the forces should be equal. But if I got off a bit it could grab and rip it out of my hand, the indexer handle that is. That's why I like the worm gear of the rotary table, I just don't like the set up time..... John I use a 12" Bridgeport RT, worm drive, and it has problems with climb milling, depending on the nature of the cut. The closer you work to the centerline of the table, the less troublesome it is, but it's rarely a non-issue. Nothing that you can't deal with, mind you, but you must be heads up. Hand feeding a cut in brass by climb milling is asking for trouble, and you'd be fortunate if it didn't come knocking, even if you can keep the cut centered. By contrast, I've machined large chamfers on leaded brass bars by hand feeding them through fixed parallels with excellent results, but only by conventional milling. No way in hell would I try climb milling. Remember, drilling in brass, one is advised to reduce the rake of the drill to zero. It's a bitch to machine when climbing due to its eagerness to hog. Harold |
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#29
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... Climb milling is extremely dangerous---causing the cutter to self feed. It's simply the poor man's autofeed. Woohoo! Look at that table fly! Regards, Robin |
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