If a machinist couldn't guess at a price with the description I gave, they
ain't much of a machinist. It wasn't a rocket component.

There are some very experienced people that hang out here. I personally
know some of them and I have learned to value the opinion of many others
by reading there posts here.

I would bet that if you managed to get 5 people here to build your
item based on your description, they would all look different. The
number of flute would varry from 4-20. The width of the flutes would
vary and so would the end radius and where the flute started and stopped.
You may or may not like what you get. They want a print so they have
a reasonable chance of creating what you want without doing it 10 times.
Many have tried to make something to please a customer with limited
info only to have it rejected and now everybody is unhappy.
Try looking at it from their perspective.
chuck

"Gunner" wrote
No one could give him an educated ball park estimate based on his
discription. He in effect put the question out.."how high is up?"

G

Gunner


Oh, I don't know, Gunner. You answered me, and I totally understood what
you were saying. (which is a little scary) You spoke to me, and not down
to me.

Steve

"Just Me" notreal at nowhere dot com wrote

Can you
say, karma?

Lane


Karma.

Steve

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
newsxZFe.51980$4o.50747@fed1read06...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:FlWFe.51972$4o.5811@fed1read06...

"Tove Momerathsson" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

"Marc" wrote in message
news:7PTFe.12657$uy3.6146@trnddc05...
And that is what you got.
12 answers and they all want a drawing... Makes me go Hmmmmmmm
"I must have a drawing"
Marc


Hmmmm. I need a drawing to imagine a miniature antique wood
architectural
column. What is wrong with this picture?

Steve

Ionic, Doric or Corinthian?

Tove

Thank you. You have unwittingly proven my point far more eloquently
than
I
ever could.

Steve


Nope! He proved the point that you need a drawing.

Harold



I see your point. Right there on top of your head.

Steve


Listen you moron, you're the one that asked for a replay, providing less
than enough information so you could get a viable answer. You remind me
of
a little kid with a hammer, and everything is a nail that needs to be hit.

I did my best to provide you with a guideline, based on my years of
running
a machine shop with manual machines. I did that not knowing if you
wanted
four, five,six, or 19 flutes on your proposed project, and I did it
politely. I even proposed some viable solutions to your problem, in spite
of the fact that you're so damned numb that you plain *don't get it*.

You didn't like the feedback you got so you want to crucify the messenger?
I'm going to do something for you that I almost never do. I'm going to
plonk you, so I don't have to read anymore of your moronic comments.
Hell, I didn't even plonk ol' Cliff. Does that tell you how little I
think
of you and your bone-headedness? The guy that said no good deed goes
unpunished had it right, didn't he.

Harold



Harold, you are not following this very well, are you? I was talking to
Marc, and then you chimed in. I was responding to when Marc asked a totally
silly question about the style of column, presumably touting his knowledge
of architectural history. Then YOU chimed in from the peanut gallery, and I
answered you just as I would anyone who butted into a conversation.

PLEASE try to keep up.

Sheesh!

Steve

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:30:40 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Marc" wrote in message
news:7PTFe.12657$uy3.6146@trnddc05...
And that is what you got.
12 answers and they all want a drawing... Makes me go Hmmmmmmm
"I must have a drawing"
Marc


Hmmmm. I need a drawing to imagine a miniature antique wood architectural
column. What is wrong with this picture?

Steve

Imagination is a wonderful thing. Too bad its not transferable from
person to person.

Think of a nubile mid 20s girl in a tiny string bikini.

Do you think the one I think of looks identical to yours?

Do we even have our girls with the same hair color, let along boob
sizes?

G

Gunner


My, my. A reasonable logical man in a sea of twits.

Steve

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:11:00 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"jw" wrote in message
groups.com...
Hang on.

Quoting you: An exact price would have to be determined by first
providing a drawing.

But you want one of us to give you a quote on something without said
drawing. And when one of us asked for a drawing, you state that he
must be too inept to do the job if he can't figure it out w/o a
drawing.

You border on a troll with this level of logic.

JW


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.............NO! I gave a thumbnail
description.
All I wanted was a guesstimate price.

If someone said, $5-$10 per item, I could say that is within the budget.
If
someone would say $40-$60 per item, I would know that is not within the
budget.

I wasn't placing an order, just a guess.

Please reread the description. For a six inch piece of metal, what I
described should be easily imaginable to any experienced metalworker who
was
NOT OVERTHINKING THE JOB.

A six inch miniature column cut out of a piece of 1" square solid bar.

Sheesh.

Steve

32 finish or 8 finish? And do you want it +/.0005 or +/- .005 in each
dimension?

Are all features to be parallel, and by how much? Can you live with
.001 taper, or do they need to be parallel to within .0005 over 12"?

G

Like I said in the description, it can be whittled out of scrap. It's not a
critical piece, but a decoration.

Steve

"Gunner" wrote

Why didnt you say so in the first place? You are getting closer to
specifying what you need. G

Gunner



I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Steve

"Anthony" wrote in message
...
"SteveB" wrote in
news:%RUFe.51862$4o.49804@fed1read06:


Anyone who mistook it as me asking for a written proposal was not
paying attention.


Without a print to look at, even a wild-assed guess would be out of the
ballpark. Too many variables undefined.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

My old man was a machinist. He was a flight engineer during WW2. I bet he
could have nailed it in ten seconds.

Steve

"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...

If a machinist couldn't guess at a price with the description I gave, they
ain't much of a machinist. It wasn't a rocket component.

There are some very experienced people that hang out here. I personally
know some of them and I have learned to value the opinion of many others
by reading there posts here.

I would bet that if you managed to get 5 people here to build your
item based on your description, they would all look different. The
number of flute would varry from 4-20. The width of the flutes would
vary and so would the end radius and where the flute started and stopped.
You may or may not like what you get. They want a print so they have
a reasonable chance of creating what you want without doing it 10 times.
Many have tried to make something to please a customer with limited
info only to have it rejected and now everybody is unhappy.
Try looking at it from their perspective.
chuck

Been there, done it, got the t shirt. Everything starts with an idea. I
wanted a guess from an idea. I did not want a price. A price is something
you would stick to.

If a man says, "that will cost between ten and thirty dollars per item", how
can the other hold him to a specific number?

That would be ludicrous.

Steve

wanted a guess from an idea. I did not want a price. A price is something
you would stick to.

I don't want to get into the middle but I just looked at your original
post and the very first sentence was "How much would it cost to ..."

words are slippery

SteveB,

You are a million laughs. After reading a lot of the posts, it seems if you
yourself had any knowledge of metalworking you would already have an idea of
"how much would it cost". Otherwise, how are you going to know whether you
are being ripped off?


"SteveB" wrote in message
news:M6QFe.51049$4o.16490@fed1read06...

"jw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hang on.

Quoting you: An exact price would have to be determined by first
providing a drawing.

But you want one of us to give you a quote on something without said
drawing. And when one of us asked for a drawing, you state that he
must be too inept to do the job if he can't figure it out w/o a
drawing.

You border on a troll with this level of logic.

JW


NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.............NO! I gave a thumbnail
description. All I wanted was a guesstimate price.

If someone said, $5-$10 per item, I could say that is within the budget.
If someone would say $40-$60 per item, I would know that is not within the
budget.

I wasn't placing an order, just a guess.

Please reread the description. For a six inch piece of metal, what I
described should be easily imaginable to any experienced metalworker who
was NOT OVERTHINKING THE JOB.

A six inch miniature column cut out of a piece of 1" square solid bar.

Sheesh.

Steve

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:03:33 -0700, the opaque "SteveB"
clearly wrote:

"Gunner" wrote

Why didnt you say so in the first place? You are getting closer to
specifying what you need. G

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Do you suppose ANY of your future questions will be answered after
you have discredited and disrespected -everyone- who had attempted
to answer your poorly-worded questions?

Enjoy your karma. You've certainly earned it.

--============================================--
Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

I can't find disrespected in my dictionary, maybe in the Ebonics version...

--

Clif

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:03:33 -0700, the opaque "SteveB"
clearly wrote:

"Gunner" wrote

Why didnt you say so in the first place? You are getting closer to
specifying what you need. G

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Do you suppose ANY of your future questions will be answered after
you have discredited and disrespected -everyone- who had attempted
to answer your poorly-worded questions?

Enjoy your karma. You've certainly earned it.

--============================================--
Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:Iu6Ge.52143$4o.45449@fed1read06...

"Anthony" wrote in message
...
"SteveB" wrote in
news:%RUFe.51862$4o.49804@fed1read06:


Anyone who mistook it as me asking for a written proposal was not
paying attention.


Without a print to look at, even a wild-assed guess would be out
of the
ballpark. Too many variables undefined.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just
make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

My old man was a machinist. He was a flight engineer during WW2. I
bet he
could have nailed it in ten seconds.

Steve

And yet you're a dumb ass. You sure he was your father?. Too bad he
could have only spent 10 seconds nailing your mother...

"Ace" wrote in message
...
SteveB,

You are a million laughs. After reading a lot of the posts, it seems if
you yourself had any knowledge of metalworking you would already have an
idea of "how much would it cost". Otherwise, how are you going to know
whether you are being ripped off?


Ya think?

Sometimes, it is just fun to tease the dog ........

Steve

"Clif Holland" wrote in message
news:MS8Ge.14685$dM3.10013@trnddc04...
I can't find disrespected in my dictionary, maybe in the Ebonics version...

--

Clif

Ahhhh. Now racism raises its head. The true nature of the beast is
appearing ..........

Steve

"Rick" wrote

And yet you're a dumb ass. You sure he was your father?. Too bad he
could have only spent 10 seconds nailing your mother...


Thanks for sharing, Rick. You are really a member of the group, aren't you?
Perfectionists. Honest men (Laugh!) Non racists.

Welcome.

STeve

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:14:11 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Aluminum can be run balls to the wall, lots of parts per hour.
Steel...way slower...more hours, higher cost. Do they need to be
deburred? What surface finish? Deburring costs are expensive if you
want detail hand work, or simply stuck in a vibratory deburrer?

Shop I'm in, we run a lot of arrow space. Aluminum. 8 to 12 thousand
RPM, feeds in multiple inches per minute. Parts by the metric butt load.
And there is Wang, sitting there watching the machine slowly turn (143
rpm), slowly move (minutes per inch) as the machine roughs out a titanium
skid plate. Waiting for the inserts to need changing, and then maybe the
part will be done before the end of shift.
James says he wouldn't mind working in titanium, he just wants either a
laptop to play solitaire on, or on of the little Robomills to crank out
parts while he waits. (He's not all that happy with the new hiring.
Whereas before, he had four machines to setup, run and tear down, now he's
only the one, and there's too much time spent waiting for 'sign off'.)

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:11:00 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


If someone said, $5-$10 per item, I could say that is within the budget. If
someone would say $40-$60 per item, I would know that is not within the
budget.

I wasn't placing an order, just a guess.

Please reread the description. For a six inch piece of metal, what I
described should be easily imaginable to any experienced metalworker who was
NOT OVERTHINKING THE JOB.

A six inch miniature column cut out of a piece of 1" square solid bar.

Sheesh.

It is indeed easily imaginable to an experienced metalworker -- along
with the many ways in which it might be made that could differ
significantly from your imagined result.

The problem is that we've all been bit by responding to requests for a
"simple SWAG" -- and then being told, "no, that isn't quite what I had
in mind." The intent is for you to figure out exactly what you have
in mind rather than have somone else spend their time making things
for you to review and reject. Metalworkers usually are expected
to make things that fit and work. That may not be the right approach
here.

More in the spirit of your request, drawings are bad because they
limit the creativity of the person making the parts.

If you agree to accept (and pay for) anything that fits your limited
description (whether you like it or not when you get it), you might
get more responses. You'd buy them as they come if you agree to a
price. It would be square on the ends, be more or less cylindrical
in the middle, and have some flutes. Two or more counts as "some",
and nothing yet sez they need be evenly-spaced or straight, nor that
any two pieces resemble one another in appearance. The flutes might
only be .010 deep, but flutes are flutes! A few swipes with an
angle grinder would get that done quickly enough and would meet your
description and spec.

It won't be dead straight nor perfectly concentric because nothing
is, the only question is how bent and wonky it might be. Doesn't
matter here.

The parts may not look much like you imagine them, but you'd still
buy the lot if it fits your limited description. As Gunner noted,
only you know what you imagine; others only know what you describe.
Not having to resemble a drawing or sketch to get paid makes things
easy.

Home builders and remodellers are very good at dealing with such
requests. They quote a price ... and then every change or
additional constraint added later raises the price beyond what's
already owed for work done and materials used to that point, plus cost
of any necessary demolition to accomplish the desired change.

Most metalworkers aren't accustomed to having customers as obliging as
you seem to be -- and will prove to be when you pay for anything that
matches your limited description for a price you agree to pay per
piece.

Welcome!

On 28 Jul 2005 07:47:38 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article %RUFe.51862$4o.49804@fed1read06, SteveB says...

To me, a price is a prelude to an offer.

For the folks here, it's a matter of honor. I know it sounds
silly, but if I say "I can build the gizmo for ten bucks"
then that's a handshake contract and I've gotta make good on
it, no matter what. The price *is* the offer, you need to
understand that.

How can you fail to "make good" on a loose spec with no drawing --
provided that the customer accepts and pays for anything that
matches his limited description, whether or not it matches his notion
of how he imagined it might turn out?

If you asked a woodworker to make a "thing" that's about 1" square on
the ends, kinda round in the middle with some lengthwise flutes in
the round part, I bet that's all the specification she'd need to
make it.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:21:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:


"Clif Holland" wrote in message
news:MS8Ge.14685$dM3.10013@trnddc04...
I can't find disrespected in my dictionary, maybe in the Ebonics version...

Ahhhh. Now racism raises its head. The true nature of the beast is
appearing ..........

And of course, Steve, you must be sure to blame EVERYONE in the group
for the actions of one individual as if the group was a single
individual. That'll make it easier to console yourself with the
idea that the entire group, or should I say "beast", is unreasonable
and that you are merely its undeserving victim.

Does it really make you feel better being so intellectually dishonest?
I'll bet it doesn't. Not really.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:55:21 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote
No one could give him an educated ball park estimate based on his
discription. He in effect put the question out.."how high is up?"

G

Gunner


Oh, I don't know, Gunner. You answered me, and I totally understood what
you were saying. (which is a little scary) You spoke to me, and not down
to me.

Steve


Of course. I like you.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:03:33 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote

Why didnt you say so in the first place? You are getting closer to
specifying what you need. G

Gunner



I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Steve


Actually..thats what they are paid to be. Occupational requirement.

Gunner


Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:33:37 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:23:44 -0500, "Mike Henry"
wrote:


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

Steve, without a print, dimensions, tolerence and so forth, no one in
their right mind would give you a quote, if they do this for a living.

Again, nobody here is trying to give the man a hard time. It's
just that the print of the part is the defacto starting point
for any kind of manufacture for things like this.

Maybe I'm being dense but it seems like he's only asking for a ball park
estimate on these parts (not a firm quote) to see if fabrication of the
parts might be within his budget. I don't see anything wrong with that
request so long as he understands that the estimate is not a firm quote and
could be grossly under the actual cost, pending submittal of a proper
drawing. The point every one else is making is those shops that have made
ballpark estimates without a drawing are unlikely to repeat the mistake.

It does seem to me that all of his effort posting here could have been
better spent making up a simple drawing and uploading it to the Drop Box or
calling a few local shops. It also seems a bit presumptive to expect
someone else to go to the trouble of working up even a rough estimate if the
OP is unwilling to invest the time in even a simple drawing.

Mike

No one could give him an educated ball park estimate based on his
discription. He in effect put the question out.."how high is up?"

"About that far." Or just before the point where it starts to become
down.

"Doobee, do down, down."


tschus
pyotr

Who is up past his bed time, he can tell because the sun is about to be
"up".


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:21:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:


"Clif Holland" wrote in message
news:MS8Ge.14685$dM3.10013@trnddc04...
I can't find disrespected in my dictionary, maybe in the Ebonics
version...

Ahhhh. Now racism raises its head. The true nature of the beast is
appearing ..........

And of course, Steve, you must be sure to blame EVERYONE in the group
for the actions of one individual as if the group was a single
individual. That'll make it easier to console yourself with the
idea that the entire group, or should I say "beast", is unreasonable
and that you are merely its undeserving victim.

Does it really make you feel better being so intellectually dishonest?
I'll bet it doesn't. Not really.



Nah. I just realized that people here making outlandish claims about being
honest men, making racial slurs, insulting dead American servicemen, and
just being a twit is indicative of any group of humans.

We are all flawed. It is just that some cannot admit it.

STeve

In article g5qGe.53609$4o.20144@fed1read06, SteveB says...

Nah. I just realized that people here making outlandish claims about being
honest men,

Damn, two plonks in a week over the same issue.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Actually..thats what they are paid to be. Occupational requirement.

LOL. You clearly understand the breed! I think Steve's
problem is he cannot realize that some folks just cannot
stop thinking, the same way they work. Machinists *have*
to analyze a job like this the same way they would do it
for real.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 29 Jul 2005 08:07:48 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Actually..thats what they are paid to be. Occupational requirement.

LOL. You clearly understand the breed! I think Steve's
problem is he cannot realize that some folks just cannot
stop thinking, the same way they work. Machinists *have*
to analyze a job like this the same way they would do it
for real.

Jim

While I make no claim to being a machinist of any sort...my wife finds
it fascinating that I cant stand pictures hanging on the wall
crooked...and the last one she measured was 1/16" tilted. Neither she
nor my son could tell that it was off. Shrug.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 29 Jul 2005 08:07:48 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Actually..thats what they are paid to be. Occupational requirement.

LOL. You clearly understand the breed! I think Steve's
problem is he cannot realize that some folks just cannot
stop thinking, the same way they work. Machinists *have*
to analyze a job like this the same way they would do it
for real.

Jim

While I make no claim to being a machinist of any sort...my wife finds
it fascinating that I cant stand pictures hanging on the wall
crooked...and the last one she measured was 1/16" tilted. Neither she
nor my son could tell that it was off. Shrug.

Some people do possess extraorinary eye-placement acuity. There is that
famous Ted Williams story. for those who have been living in a cave, Ted
Williams was a famous baseball player. It is well known that many of the
big hitters have exceptional eyesight. It is one of the things that set them
apart from us mortals.

Home plate had been dug up on his home field and some different kind of dirt
had been put down to please Mr williams. Once this was done, surveying
equipment was brought in to measure everrything and put home plate exactly
where it neded to go. He went out to check it out. After a few swings he
went to the management and told them that home plate was not in the right
place.

Not wishing to offend their star, they went out and measured everyting all
over again. It turns out he was tight. Home plate had been istalled a few
inches off. And Big Ted noticed it instantly.

So, whether it is home plate or a peice of steel that is off by .001 inch,
there is omeone who will notice these things. And these skills keep the
world running.

On 29 Jul 2005 07:33:54 -0700, the opaque jim rozen
clearly wrote:

In article g5qGe.53609$4o.20144@fed1read06, SteveB says...

Nah. I just realized that people here making outlandish claims about being
honest men,

Damn, two plonks in a week over the same issue.

Ayup. Life's too short.


--

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things
over and over and over again for the truth to sink in,
to kind of catapult the propaganda."

G.W. Bush
Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005

In article , Gunner says...

While I make no claim to being a machinist of any sort...my wife finds
it fascinating that I cant stand pictures hanging on the wall
crooked...and the last one she measured was 1/16" tilted. Neither she
nor my son could tell that it was off. Shrug.

My dad had one of his fathers paintings restored, and hung it in the
spare bedroom. The panelling in that room is about 1/4 off square
over the entire height of the wall, and the painting can either
be square to the panelling and off-square to the ceiling, or
square to the ceiling and off-square to the panelling. Infuriating.

I've been known to get up in the middle of a meal at a resturant and
tweak artwork on the wall just because it's spoiling my meal....

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner says...

While I make no claim to being a machinist of any sort...my wife finds
it fascinating that I cant stand pictures hanging on the wall
crooked...and the last one she measured was 1/16" tilted. Neither she
nor my son could tell that it was off. Shrug.

My dad had one of his fathers paintings restored, and hung it in the
spare bedroom. The panelling in that room is about 1/4 off square
over the entire height of the wall, and the painting can either
be square to the panelling and off-square to the ceiling, or
square to the ceiling and off-square to the panelling. Infuriating.

I've been known to get up in the middle of a meal at a resturant and
tweak artwork on the wall just because it's spoiling my meal....

Jim


And I thought I was anal! g

I fully understand. Being anal is what makes a great machinist, at least
in my experience, it does. I've never known anyone to have exceptional
machining skills that wasn't that way. The finest lathe man I ever knew,
heads and shoulders better than anyone else, ever, got really ****ed at me
because I reset the compound on his lathe to 29 degrees instead of 30
degrees, where he liked to run it. I ran his machine one day when he
wasn't at work. He went right out of his way to let me know I screwed up.
Actually, considering I am/was as anal as he is, I thought he was the one
that was screwed up, for chasing threads @ 30 degrees, but it worked for
him. He was the best. I don't recall ever seeing him produce any scrap,
a claim I can't make for myself.

Harold

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:04:37 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 29 Jul 2005 08:07:48 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

I was too busy answering flaming anal retentive machinists.

Actually..thats what they are paid to be. Occupational requirement.

LOL. You clearly understand the breed! I think Steve's
problem is he cannot realize that some folks just cannot
stop thinking, the same way they work. Machinists *have*
to analyze a job like this the same way they would do it
for real.

Jim

While I make no claim to being a machinist of any sort...my wife finds
it fascinating that I cant stand pictures hanging on the wall
crooked...and the last one she measured was 1/16" tilted. Neither she
nor my son could tell that it was off. Shrug.

It tends to follow you around. Friend is working making pallets. He
determined that their machines were a few thou off.
I figured out the shear I was working had a 3.6 thou per foot taper
between the back stop and the shear, and that of the 4 1/2 feet of guide
only about 4 inches was square to the blade. So why am I getting
dimensions to three decimal places, when I can only hold, at best, a 32nd?
I didn't stay there long.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
|SNIP
| It tends to follow you around. Friend is working making pallets. He
| determined that their machines were a few thou off.
| I figured out the shear I was working had a 3.6 thou per foot taper
| between the back stop and the shear, and that of the 4 1/2 feet of guide
| only about 4 inches was square to the blade. So why am I getting
| dimensions to three decimal places, when I can only hold, at best, a 32nd?
| I didn't stay there long.
|
|
| tschus
| pyotr

In my aerospace day job I often work to thousandths or tighter, so when
I come home and get out my tape measure, the thickness of the line is a big
issue with me, so much that I use a ballpoint pen or a mechanical pencil
instead of a clumsy standard or carpenter's pencil. As a kid I never knew
why my father always drew little arrows on one side of the line or the
other, and now I know that the kerf was way too sloppy for him. He was
pipefitter in his job, and I don't think he worked to the same tolerance as
I have to, but they sure add up quickly.
I have noticed that the very best carpenters are really anal about
square corners and good lumber. I'm getting there fast. Working with metal
gets even worse for me, and since I don't have accurate metal cutting tools,
I really spend a lot of time trying to get it right, which following my
torch use is hard.

There's terms for the various mental conditions that cause such anal
retentiveness and compulsions, which I don't think are all bad!

SteveB wrote:
SNIP


My old man was a machinist. He was a flight engineer during WW2. I bet he
could have nailed it in ten seconds.

Steve




From a web page I found:

Nailed it: To give an exact answer.


Kind of a ways off from:

"Can anyone give a straight answer? I'm not really interested in how to
do it or which machines one would use. Just a guess at how much each
would cost."

I work in a CNC shop. I'm not a garage machinist, even though I have the
skills to utilize non-CNC machines very well.(and a friend who lets me
use his.) G

I will make a guess, but it's my guess, others may charge more for their
time, or less, than me.


Aluminum material. (at least 25 ft + 50 kerfs) ????????

Saw 50 pieces to 6" length. 20 bucks

Turn down middle of bar. (50 pcs) 150 bucks

4 flutes, 3/16" wide keycutter (50 pcs) 200 bucks

deburr 50 pcs (fiber wheel) 50 bucks


Comes out to about 420 bucks + material, + customer's attitude. G


--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Mark Mossberg" wrote in message
m...
Steve,

Turning a 4" long diameter in a 6" long square bar isn't that big of a
deal.
All you need is a lathe with a 5C collet closer, a 1" square collet (I
think
this as big as a 5C goes),


Wrong! 5C collets are available in (round) sizes up to 1-1/8", but there's
no chance in hell you can buy one large enough to hold 1" square material.
The material exceeds collet size across the corners. You could buy a step
chuck (2" diameter or larger) and mill the configuration with some care,
however.

That -- or a 4-jaw chuck. A regular one could be used, but this
kind of job would be nicer in a 4-jaw universal (scroll-back) chuck.
Yes, they are rare, but they do exist. I've got two at present for
different machines.

Cutting fancy features lengthwise in the round portion can get
complicated.
If the features are 90 or 180 degrees apart you can use the remaining
square
ends as references. Any more than that and your looking at a 4th axis set
up. Maybe even 4 axis surfacing.

Not true. If the parts are machined by holding with a step chuck, an
indexing head and tailstock center would be adequate for holding and
indexing for flutes.

He said *no* machining on the ends, but you would at least need
to center drill one end, and ideally should face both ends, too.

One could machine them easily @ 30 degree or 45
degree intervals, using a small (radiused) side cutter,

Or -- a ball-end mill, which would have less trouble staying
clear of the square ends. It could not cut as fast as a half-round side
milling cutter, but ... :-)

And if six flutes would be sufficient, one end of the workpiece
could be held in the machinable collet in a hex collet block held in a
vise.

either on a
horizontal or a vertical mill. The biggest problem here would be using a
small enough cutter so it didn't interfere with the square portion.

The ball end mill seems to be called for here.

A
Woodruff cutter might be a solution. This would be an excellent operation
for a hand mill, a Nichols, for example.

Agreed -- the lever X-axis feed would be nice for the fluting.
I would prefer to have a universal 4-jaw chuck on a proper dividing
head, however, as it would be more rigid than the spin indexer. You
would have to spend a lot of time turning cranks on the dividing head,
however.

Hard to give you an idea of the cost without seeing it. One thing's for
sure, the material cost will be insignificant compared to the labor.

[ ... ]

Absolutely. This would be a relatively labor intensive part to make, even
without difficult tolerances, which are not a concern from all indications.
At today's shop prices, I wouldn't be surprised to see a part of this nature
go for $45 each.

And for this, without CNC to do the work, I would tend to say
that the fixturing to do fifty of them efficiently would boost the price
significantly.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article . com,
jw wrote:
Your simple description left a lot out to give a real quote. You won't
find many(any?) shops that will quote you something without some sort
of drawing.

How many flutes? what size? full length?

*And* -- what *shape* flutes? The easy ones would be concave,
formed by a ball-end mill or a half-round side milling cutter. However,
they could be *concave*, in which case a special side milling cutter
would have to be ground to cut the shape.

Also -- everyone has been assuming that the flutes are parallel
to the axis. I can imagine someone wanting *spiral* flutes, which would
call for much more complex machining and setups. (I know that *I* could
not make even *one* of them, let alone fifty.

If $45 per is too much for you, I suspect this project is doomed. Any
shop that can crank them out fast enough(ie CNC) to make them cheaper
is going to have expensive equipment to amortize. Anyone who is doing
it by other means(lathe, shaper, mill) is going to have substantial
labor time to bill you for.

Exactly why I am not bidding on it.

I don't *want* a job like that which needs fifty of them made.
*One* would be fun to try. Fifty is *work*, and I am retired, and want
to stay clear of committing to that much work.

I'm not going to even semi-commit someone by making a guess as
to what would be a reasonable fee for someone else to do the job, if
*I'm* not willing to do the job for that amount.

I'll speculate on *how* to do it, but not on the price.

I no longer remember whether the original post specified *which*
metal. Aluminum would probably be not bad. Stainless steel would be a
serious pain.

The suggestion that someone else posted for it being more a job
for casting seems reasonable to me. (But -- I don't do casting.)

And -- looking at the size of this thread (I've fallen behind in
reading usenet recently, and have a *lot* yet to read), I'll probably
soon do a "catchup" on this thread and go on to other threads.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:50:23 GMT, Steve Walker
wrote:

SteveB wrote:
SNIP


My old man was a machinist. He was a flight engineer during WW2. I bet he
could have nailed it in ten seconds.

Steve




From a web page I found:

Nailed it: To give an exact answer.


Kind of a ways off from:

"Can anyone give a straight answer? I'm not really interested in how to
do it or which machines one would use. Just a guess at how much each
would cost."

I work in a CNC shop. I'm not a garage machinist, even though I have the
skills to utilize non-CNC machines very well.(and a friend who lets me
use his.) G

I will make a guess, but it's my guess, others may charge more for their
time, or less, than me.


Aluminum material. (at least 25 ft + 50 kerfs) ????????

Saw 50 pieces to 6" length. 20 bucks

Turn down middle of bar. (50 pcs) 150 bucks

4 flutes, 3/16" wide keycutter (50 pcs) 200 bucks

deburr 50 pcs (fiber wheel) 50 bucks


Comes out to about 420 bucks + material, + customer's attitude. G

Now..if the machinist stacked (4) 3/16" radiused cutters on a
horizontal miller...they could be wacked out in just a few seconds per
side. Which should bring the cost down.



Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
snip----

Now..if the machinist stacked (4) 3/16" radiused cutters on a
horizontal miller...they could be wacked out in just a few seconds per
side. Which should bring the cost down.



Gunner

Blink. Blink.

Am I missing something here, Gunner? How are four cutters, side by side,
going to cut flutes that, as I understood it, were spaced around a cylinder?
Do you want to give that more thought? g

Harold

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:47:24 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
snip----

Now..if the machinist stacked (4) 3/16" radiused cutters on a
horizontal miller...they could be wacked out in just a few seconds per
side. Which should bring the cost down.



Gunner

Blink. Blink.

Am I missing something here, Gunner? How are four cutters, side by side,
going to cut flutes that, as I understood it, were spaced around a cylinder?
Do you want to give that more thought? g

Harold


Blink blink indeed. Brain fart on my part. I was thinking square
cross section for some reason...sigh

Mea culpa.

Though..a single such cutter may be faster than a endmill.

Gunner, suffering from brain farts
Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli