Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?
  #2   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent ElectricDrill Accident)



Richard J Kinch wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99,


Those are down to less than $10 this week! Time to stock up on stocking
stuffers!

Jeff (Who confesses to being a loyal HF customer for his "hobby grade"
equipment.)
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient
science...)




since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?





  #3   Report Post  
clare @ snyder.on .ca
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?



The common method is to make yourself "judgement proof". All profits
are expensed out to an "arms length" entity on a monthly basis so the
company has no assetts. All property and chattels are leased. No
insurance if they can get away with it. Can't get blood out of a
stone, so the lawyers take one look, say there is nothing there, and
move on.
  #4   Report Post  
Jim Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent ElectricDrill Accident)

clare wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:


The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?




The common method is to make yourself "judgement proof". All profits
are expensed out to an "arms length" entity on a monthly basis so the
company has no assetts. All property and chattels are leased. No
insurance if they can get away with it. Can't get blood out of a
stone, so the lawyers take one look, say there is nothing there, and
move on.


First, the usual 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer.

I doubt that this would work for Harbor Freight. First of all, they
have intangible assets such as their 'good name'. Secondly, if they
could not pay off a big judgment, the court might order them to be
sold at auction to satisfy the debt.



  #5   Report Post  
donald girod
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

Exactly why do you think these things are so dangerous??

Is it based on personal experience, or just the assumption that since it is
a shoddy piece of **** it will also hurt you? Exactly what, for instance,
is the angle grinder going to do to you? The wheel will fall apart due to
wheel defects, maybe, but what does that have to do with the grinder? If
you put a decent wheel on it, it's going to be fine. Maybe the gears with
disintegrate, but then you will be even safer since it won't be turning.


"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
In rec.crafts.metalworking Jeff Wisnia wrote:


Richard J Kinch wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering

about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The

local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how

shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts

somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh,

angle
grinders for $14.99,


Those are down to less than $10 this week! Time to stock up on stocking
stuffers!


I bet they could get another $3 off the price just by gluing the disk
on, and omitting the change key...


--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian

Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------

------
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornfull tone, "It

means
Just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -- Lewis

Carrol



  #6   Report Post  
Keith Marshall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

First, the usual 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer.

Same here. :-)

I doubt that this would work for Harbor Freight. First of all, they

have intangible assets such as their 'good name'. Secondly, if they
could not pay off a big judgment, the court might order them to be
sold at auction to satisfy the debt.

But I believe the liabilty would normally fall on the manufacturer rather
than the dealer and I don't think I've ever seen a "Harbor Freight" brand
tool. They have their house brands that they sell but they do not normally
have the Harbor Freight name on them. They're by brands such as Chicago
Electric, Pittsburg Tools, etc. which probably only exist in China.

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"The universe is full of magical things,
patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper."
-Eden Phillpotts, A Shadow Passes, 1934
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
clare wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:


The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering

about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts

somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So

much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual

power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere

else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?




The common method is to make yourself "judgement proof". All profits
are expensed out to an "arms length" entity on a monthly basis so the
company has no assetts. All property and chattels are leased. No
insurance if they can get away with it. Can't get blood out of a
stone, so the lawyers take one look, say there is nothing there, and
move on.


First, the usual 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer.

I doubt that this would work for Harbor Freight. First of all, they
have intangible assets such as their 'good name'. Secondly, if they
could not pay off a big judgment, the court might order them to be
sold at auction to satisfy the debt.





  #7   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:05:55 GMT, the renowned "Keith Marshall"
wrote:

But I believe the liabilty would normally fall on the manufacturer rather
than the dealer and I don't think I've ever seen a "Harbor Freight" brand
tool. They have their house brands that they sell but they do not normally
have the Harbor Freight name on them. They're by brands such as Chicago
Electric, Pittsburg Tools, etc. which probably only exist in China.


Those brands are owned by HF, and the Chinese (or Indian, or
Taiwanese) manufacturer "du jour" sticks that name on the product. If
the buyer wanted "Sears" or "Snap-On" stuck on there (and plausibly
seemed to own the trademark) they'd do that too. The Japanese used
that technique to get into the US market in the early days- putting
RCA or whatever on their stuff.

If there was a nasty lawsuit, all the parties would be named, the
importer and the retailer (which may or may not be separate legal
entities in the case of HF) would definitely be included.

My guess is that they have a hefty product liability insurance policy
and you'll be dealing with really sharp insurance company lawyers who
can stretch things out for many years if you try to make a claim for
whatever stupid thing you did to yourself.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #8   Report Post  
Steven Bliss
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

Actually, I've returned more broken tools to Sears than I have to HF.....
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
...
The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So

much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual

power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere

else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?



  #9   Report Post  
clare @ snyder.on .ca
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:44:35 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

clare wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:


The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?




The common method is to make yourself "judgement proof". All profits
are expensed out to an "arms length" entity on a monthly basis so the
company has no assetts. All property and chattels are leased. No
insurance if they can get away with it. Can't get blood out of a
stone, so the lawyers take one look, say there is nothing there, and
move on.


First, the usual 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer.

I doubt that this would work for Harbor Freight. First of all, they
have intangible assets such as their 'good name'. Secondly, if they
could not pay off a big judgment, the court might order them to be
sold at auction to satisfy the debt.


And if there are no assets to sell????
That is the pivotal assumption. The sale of a corporation with no
assets cannot begin to pay damages. If the assets (merchandise) are
all owned off shore ( in China) and sold on consignment, there is
nothing to sell.

NOT saying HF plays this game, but there are many who do, world-wide.

  #10   Report Post  
Carl Byrns
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability.


snip lame attempt to smear Harbor Freight
Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?


Has anyone sucessfully sued an out-of-business American tool company?

If I chop my hand off with my non-OSHA (no belt guard) 1954
King-Seeley table saw, who can I blame?

Do some research into why the US light aircraft industry collapsed
overnight. The Chinese had nothing to do with it- it was all American
lawyers.

-Carl


"The man who has nothing worth dying for has nothing worth living for"- Martin Luther King, Jr.


  #11   Report Post  
Ron Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

Cash flow is an asset. But the defense would probably be "Hey, you knew it
was a piece of **** when you bought it".

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com

Where did everyone go? Oh, yeah. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/
Y'all come, ya hear?
*******
clare @ snyder.on .ca wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:44:35 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

clare wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:


The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering

about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The

local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how

shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts

somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh,

angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So

much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual

power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere

else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF

is
organized and defends itself?



The common method is to make yourself "judgement proof". All profits
are expensed out to an "arms length" entity on a monthly basis so the
company has no assetts. All property and chattels are leased. No
insurance if they can get away with it. Can't get blood out of a
stone, so the lawyers take one look, say there is nothing there, and
move on.


First, the usual 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer.

I doubt that this would work for Harbor Freight. First of all, they
have intangible assets such as their 'good name'. Secondly, if they
could not pay off a big judgment, the court might order them to be
sold at auction to satisfy the debt.


And if there are no assets to sell????
That is the pivotal assumption. The sale of a corporation with no
assets cannot begin to pay damages. If the assets (merchandise) are
all owned off shore ( in China) and sold on consignment, there is
nothing to sell.

NOT saying HF plays this game, but there are many who do, world-wide.




  #12   Report Post  
George E. Cawthon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent ElectricDrill Accident)

If you ever bought anything from Harbor Freight you would
know that the instruction and parts manual that comes with a
tool is more like a safety and maintenance manual; there is
lots on what to not do and not too much on how to use the
tool. If you follow the instructions, you are not likely to
get hurt, and if you don't, well you were told, so the
liability part is covered. I mean, does a company really
have to tell you not to peas in your ears? Wouldn't you
know not to leave the key in the drill when you turn it
on? Most tool mishaps are due to operator error and
carelessness and not faulty tools. Most of the time if the
tool is defective, it just doesn't do anything and you
cannot blame the manufacture when you get mad and throw it
down and it bounces up and sticks in your groin.

BTW, Harbor Freight, at least at my store, will without
hassle, replace any tool that you say won't work and if you
return it in an original box they don't even ask for a sales
receipt.

Maybe parents shouldn't let their kids drive 100 lb go
carts, but then they let 5 and 6 year olds drive ATV when it
is illegal for children to operate them. I expect they
still sue the manufacture when their kids get hurt. County
prosecutors could be a little more robust in prosecuting
parent who do stupid and illegal things that kill their
kids. Maybe they ought to prosecute the suing lawyer for
aiding and abbeting a crime also. Sorry for the rant, but
irresponsible people tend to anger me.

Richard J Kinch wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?

  #13   Report Post  
LBailey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

That's BS, Carl. I could undercut anybody in price if I sell garbage put
together by slave labor.

--
Larry Bailey
Illegitimi non carborundum


"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:08:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering

about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability.


snip lame attempt to smear Harbor Freight
Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?


Has anyone sucessfully sued an out-of-business American tool company?

If I chop my hand off with my non-OSHA (no belt guard) 1954
King-Seeley table saw, who can I blame?

Do some research into why the US light aircraft industry collapsed
overnight. The Chinese had nothing to do with it- it was all American
lawyers.

-Carl


"The man who has nothing worth dying for has nothing worth living for"-

Martin Luther King, Jr.


  #14   Report Post  
LBailey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

Don't buy Chinese products.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercuryne...ld/5966873.htm

--
Larry Bailey
Illegitimi non carborundum


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
...
The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So

much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual

power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere

else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?



  #15   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:05:45 GMT, the renowned Bill
wrote:

Well, a couple of years ago I bought a $20 hammer drill, knowing that it
would probably fail early. I was right the bearings started going out
on the first job and were really sad on the second, but I went in with
my eyes open. Then a while back I needed a replacement power cord, so I
thought. I will cut the cord off of the hammer drill and get a little
more good out of my $20. Well, the cord didn't have a ground in it. It
had a three prong plug, but no ground wire. So I didn't even get that
last little bit of good out of the drill.

Bill Gill


Cripes, if anyone had gotten electrocuted, the plaintiff's lawyer
would have had a field day. No UL approval, I guess.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com


  #16   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent ElectricDrill Accident)

LBailey wrote:

Don't buy Chinese products.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercuryne...ld/5966873.htm

--
Larry Bailey
Illegitimi non carborundum


That's near impossible to do with so many things these days. You'd be spending
most of your shopping time trying to find a source of what you needed that
*wasn't* made in China.

Speaking of "dangerous tools": Two weeks ago I succumbed to temptation and
bought one of those Remington pole saws (a lightweight 10 inch electric chain
saw on a telescoping pole.) to help me trim back some of the tree branches which
persist in seeking the open spaces over our backyard. (Because every other
direction is blocked by more trees, those trees aren't dumb.). I'd been using
one of those pull rope loppers, but some of the branches which I wanted to cut
were too large for it.

Anyway, the pole saw worked as advertised albeit it's reach wasn't as great as I
would have hoped for. But, the clamp which you tighten to lock the telescoping
pole sections where you want them is pure ****e for the job it has to do. It's a
plastic collet clamping on a shiny fiberglass pole. The collet is closed by a
threaded plastic ring with a ribbed outer surface. Looks OK in principle, but it
would take King Kong to tighten it enough by hand to keep those pole sections
locked in use. And, the (rather crummy) manual which came with the product
specifically warns NOT to use tools to tighten the clamp. Even with work gloves
on I can't tighten it enough to lock it up.

So, after a few seconds of use, the handle at the bottom of the pole, which
contains the saw's trigger switch and it's safety unlock button, twists around
relative to the chainsaw bar at the other end of the pole until I'm turning my
hand and wrist into a pretzel trying to operate the switch, and by then my grip
on that handle is far from stable. Now, I think I'm smart enough to know when to
quit when this happens, but it sure seems like an inadequate design to me, and
there's something about the warning not to use tools to tighten the clamp that
makes me think the manufacturer must know that too.

I Googled around and found that several other people had the exactly the same
complaint about this product in their amazon.com product reviews of it.

An email a week ago to the "manufacturer" (DESA) has produced nothing but a
question asking me if the collet part was turning relative to the pole it's
attached to, and I immediately responded that it wasn't that, but the collet
"jaws" themselves which were slipping on the pole they were clamping. Nothing
has been heard from them since then.

Before someone suggests I drill a few holes right through both pole sections in
several places and stick a bolt through them to fix the pole length where I want
it at the time, let me point out that there's a coiled electrical cord running
up through the pole, so that approach won't be as easy as it sounds.

I think I'll just return the darned thing to Lowes this weekend. Don Foreman
tipped me off about "High Limb Chain Saws" (A few feet of chain saw blade
between two ropes that you toss over the limb and "shoe shine" back and forth.)
I bought one, and it works great, and reaches a LOT higher that that electric
pole saw.

Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Success is getting what you like; Happiness is liking what you get."






"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
...
The recent thread "Violent Electric Drill Accident" got me wondering about
places like Harbor Freight Tools and their product liability. The local
store sells an amazing array of dangerous tools. We all know how shoddy
and defective some of them are, and notwithstanding the "electric drill
accident", surely there are many cases where a faulty tool hurts somebody.
What I cannot understand is how they can run a store and sell, oh, angle
grinders for $14.99, since they must be getting sued all the time. So

much
of their stuff is obviously dangerous, and I don't mean in the usual

power-
tool-requires-common-sense way, such as the toys they sell for children
(100 lb go-kart with no effective brakes!) that you can't buy anywhere

else
because no American firm could survive the lawsuits. Does the Chinese
mafia come to visit if you have a "problem"? Does anyone know how HF is
organized and defends itself?







  #17   Report Post  
Ian Stirling
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

In rec.crafts.metalworking Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:05:45 GMT, the renowned Bill
wrote:

Well, a couple of years ago I bought a $20 hammer drill, knowing that it
would probably fail early. I was right the bearings started going out
on the first job and were really sad on the second, but I went in with
my eyes open. Then a while back I needed a replacement power cord, so I
thought. I will cut the cord off of the hammer drill and get a little
more good out of my $20. Well, the cord didn't have a ground in it. It
had a three prong plug, but no ground wire. So I didn't even get that
last little bit of good out of the drill.


Cripes, if anyone had gotten electrocuted, the plaintiff's lawyer
would have had a field day. No UL approval, I guess.


Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.
The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
'Where subtlety fails, we must simply make do with cream pies' -- David Brin
  #18   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Ian Stirling
wrote:

In rec.crafts.metalworking Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:05:45 GMT, the renowned Bill
wrote:

Well, a couple of years ago I bought a $20 hammer drill, knowing that it
would probably fail early. I was right the bearings started going out
on the first job and were really sad on the second, but I went in with
my eyes open. Then a while back I needed a replacement power cord, so I
thought. I will cut the cord off of the hammer drill and get a little
more good out of my $20. Well, the cord didn't have a ground in it. It
had a three prong plug, but no ground wire. So I didn't even get that
last little bit of good out of the drill.


Cripes, if anyone had gotten electrocuted, the plaintiff's lawyer
would have had a field day. No UL approval, I guess.


Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.


True. If the tool was actually double-insulated to meet UL
requirements. If it wasn't approved, we don't know. They might have
used any number of substandard materials. Or maybe it's fine, just
they have not spent the $5K to get the approvals. I've seen both
situations.

The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.


*Surely* it's not permitted (by UL or CSA) to manufacture approved
tools with FAKE 3-wire cords.

I'd look at it and assume the exposed metal bits were supposed to be
grounded/earthed, safer than double-insulated in some situations.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #19   Report Post  
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Those are down to less than $10 this week! Time to stock up on stocking
stuffers!


Is this a regional in store sale? I have seen many references to the $14.99
angle grinders and out of curiousity I visited our new local Harbor Freight.
The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?



Jeff (Who confesses to being a loyal HF customer for his "hobby grade"
equipment.)
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient
science...)



  #20   Report Post  
Ian Stirling
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

In rec.crafts.metalworking Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Ian Stirling
wrote:

In rec.crafts.metalworking Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:05:45 GMT, the renowned Bill
wrote:

Well, a couple of years ago I bought a $20 hammer drill, knowing that it
would probably fail early. I was right the bearings started going out
on the first job and were really sad on the second, but I went in with
my eyes open. Then a while back I needed a replacement power cord, so I
thought. I will cut the cord off of the hammer drill and get a little
more good out of my $20. Well, the cord didn't have a ground in it. It
had a three prong plug, but no ground wire. So I didn't even get that
last little bit of good out of the drill.


Cripes, if anyone had gotten electrocuted, the plaintiff's lawyer
would have had a field day. No UL approval, I guess.


Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.


True. If the tool was actually double-insulated to meet UL
requirements. If it wasn't approved, we don't know. They might have
used any number of substandard materials. Or maybe it's fine, just
they have not spent the $5K to get the approvals. I've seen both
situations.


As have I, and on 240V, it's a lot more fun.


The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.


*Surely* it's not permitted (by UL or CSA) to manufacture approved
tools with FAKE 3-wire cords.

I'd look at it and assume the exposed metal bits were supposed to be
grounded/earthed, safer than double-insulated in some situations.


You might, but is it actually prohibited?

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
Tad Williams has an interesting new fantasy: http://www.shadowmarch.com/


  #21   Report Post  
Tomcat14
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

Bill wrote in message igy.com...
Tomcat14 wrote:

I saw a Chinese floor jack being returned to my local discount store.
The weld had broken because it was devective and painted over. Most of
this real low priced stuff is from China. They don't really care about
safety or health. Generally though, buyers have to have some
responsibility and be on the lookout. The potential savings is great,
especially for DIYers that don't use certain tools very often, like a
hammer drill.


Well, a couple of years ago I bought a $20 hammer drill, knowing that it
would probably fail early. I was right the bearings started going out
on the first job and were really sad on the second, but I went in with
my eyes open. Then a while back I needed a replacement power cord, so I
thought. I will cut the cord off of the hammer drill and get a little
more good out of my $20. Well, the cord didn't have a ground in it. It
had a three prong plug, but no ground wire. So I didn't even get that
last little bit of good out of the drill.

Bill Gill


I don't want to make this a bash Chinese post because they merely
exhibit the problems of an emerging economy as did Japan, Taiwan,
India, etc. And I have scored some tremendous quality bargains in
electronics and hard tools.
Along the way I learned how easy it is to get fooled. Best to look for
a product with a big name brand as they might be checking the quality
more.
I have seen radio knobs secured with paper, tools with no heat
treating, lead paint, razor sharp edges, color that comes off on hands
or anything else, and the very amusing directions that are often
included. I consider it a challenge to inspect the products and
determine the value. The Chinese watch that I am wearing cost fifty
cents while a new battery for my old one cost $3. I don't expect to
get hurt by it because if I do catch it in the $15 hammer drill it
will rip apart before I do.
  #22   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:10:39 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Speaking of "dangerous tools": Two weeks ago I succumbed to temptation and
bought one of those Remington pole saws (a lightweight 10 inch electric chain
saw on a telescoping pole.) to help me trim back some of the tree branches which
persist in seeking the open spaces over our backyard. (Because every other
direction is blocked by more trees, those trees aren't dumb.). I'd been using
one of those pull rope loppers, but some of the branches which I wanted to cut
were too large for it.

Anyway, the pole saw worked as advertised albeit it's reach wasn't as great as I
would have hoped for. But, the clamp which you tighten to lock the telescoping
pole sections where you want them is pure ****e for the job it has to do. It's a
plastic collet clamping on a shiny fiberglass pole. The collet is closed by a
threaded plastic ring with a ribbed outer surface. Looks OK in principle, but it
would take King Kong to tighten it enough by hand to keep those pole sections
locked in use. And, the (rather crummy) manual which came with the product
specifically warns NOT to use tools to tighten the clamp. Even with work gloves
on I can't tighten it enough to lock it up.


I have one of those pole saws. It works great. Sounds to me like you were
trying to manually saw with it. Let the chain do the work. If it is sharp and
properly tensioned, you don't have to exert any great force to make it cut,
and the telescoping clamp won't slip. Mine tightens up just fine with hand
effort, but if the pole is as "shiney" as you say, you might try taking the
shine off with a bit of sandpaper. That'll let the fingers of the collet grip
it better.

But in keeping with this thread, I'll relate one incident with respect to the
pole saw. You *cannot* step out of the way quick enough to avoid the
limb you were cutting *directly* over your head. Fortunately I was wearing
my hard hat. Now, for limbs which are so high I'd need to stand directly
underneath to reach them, I use a ladder, off to one side, so I can reach
*over* and cut the limb instead of reaching *up* to cut the limb.

Gary

  #23   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:28:23 -0700, "LBailey" wrote:
Rex, how do you sleep at night? You send your money to people who jail
dissidents? How does that make you feel?


How good were the dissidents at assembling power tools?

If they were really good, I'd be upset. But if they were doing crappy
work, then I couldn't much care.

Gary

  #24   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), Ian Stirling wrote:
Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.
The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.


AFAIK there isn't. It just helps enforce getting the hot and neutral plugged
in correctly. Sometimes the different size blades don't get the job done
because some ham handed person forces them in wrong. But with the
ground prong too, they'd have to cut it off to get the plug in wrong, and
that sort of tampering voids any claim they might have.

Gary

  #25   Report Post  
Mark Rand
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:28:23 -0700, "LBailey" wrote:

Rex, how do you sleep at night? You send your money to people who jail
dissidents? How does that make you feel?


Tricky choice when the alternative is to deal with people who ignore the
Geneva Conventions on the treatment of POWs

Mark Rand
RTFM


  #26   Report Post  
Pep674
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)



Those are down to less than $10 this week! Time to stock up on stocking
stuffers!


Is this a regional in store sale? I have seen many references to the $14.99
angle grinders and out of curiousity I visited our new local Harbor Freight.
The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?


I recently stopped into the locaal Evergreen hardware in AJ AZ to buy a nail
(or screw) and noted a small angle grinder on the counter with a price of $6.95
on it. Yep-$6.95. I thot it was mismarked but they had a whole stack of
them. I bought on. Haven't plugged it in yet.


Paul in AJ AZ
  #27   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pole Saws, was Cheap import tools and product liability (was:Violent Electric Drill Accident)



'nuther Bob wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:03:06 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

But in keeping with this thread, I'll relate one incident with respect to the
pole saw. You *cannot* step out of the way quick enough to avoid the
limb you were cutting *directly* over your head. Fortunately I was wearing
my hard hat. Now, for limbs which are so high I'd need to stand directly
underneath to reach them, I use a ladder, off to one side, so I can reach
*over* and cut the limb instead of reaching *up* to cut the limb.


I have one of those saws. It's an accident looking to happen to use it
overhead. It is seriously top heavy. As you cut through the branch,
the saw drops, guess where it ends up. The type with the motor at the
bottom end are good, these things are dangerous.

Mostly I use it now as a trim saw without the pole. It's nice to have
a small electric trim saw around for use up on a ladder. The only time
I use it on the pole is if I can get above the limb and cut below me.
That way if the saw drops I'm not under it. If I can only cut above.
I just use the old hand pole saw.

About those chain over the branch saws: Isn't there an issue with
the bark peeling off the tree on the bottom side as the branch falls
since you can't do an undercut first ?

Bob


Well, the instructions which came with mine addressed that. They said to move as
far to each side as posible first to cut through the bark on the underside of the
limb. I realize the geometry to make that happen is kinda tough unless you add
some VERY long extension ropes and can get quite far off to the side. But, that's
what they said to do, and I suppose some undercutting is better than nohing....

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient
science...)


  #28   Report Post  
Keith Marshall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?


Nearly any "house brand" item from Harbor Freight will occasionally be put
on sale for 1/2 price. Currently I don't see any on sale but there are two
on sale for Inside Track Club members. Item # 43471 is currently $15.97,
usually $29.99 and item # 42203 is $12.97, normally $27.99.

But the best deal I've found is from Homier Mobile Merchants,
http://www.homier.com. They have a traveling truckload tool sale that comes
through the area a couple of times a year and the last two times they were
here they had them for $5.99! I bought two about a year ago and I'm still
on the first one. Of course the 2nd one may fall apart as soon as I take it
out of the box but for that price I won't complain too much. :-)

On their Web site there is a link to sign up for notification of when they
will be in your area. Since the Harbor Freight store opened here in
Charlotte they haven't actually come to Charlotte but they've been to nearly
every city around me, usually within 20-30 miles or so. A month ago they
were in the area and had autodark welding helmets for $39.99!

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"The universe is full of magical things,
patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper."
-Eden Phillpotts, A Shadow Passes, 1934
"George" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Those are down to less than $10 this week! Time to stock up on stocking
stuffers!


Is this a regional in store sale? I have seen many references to the

$14.99
angle grinders and out of curiousity I visited our new local Harbor

Freight.
The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?



Jeff (Who confesses to being a loyal HF customer for his "hobby grade"
equipment.)
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient
science...)





  #29   Report Post  
Tim Shoppa
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.
The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.


Three-prong plugs are far less likely to "fall out" or get bent if
stressed. The flat shape of the North American 15A live/neutral prongs
is a big mistake, I notice that most overseas plugs use no flat prongs
at all, an obvious improvement over the US design. In any event,
the poor design of the US 2-prong plug is supplemented
by a nice sturdy circular ground prong in the 3-prong version.

I do not like seeing any part of a live prong exposed under any circumstances,
but with US two-prong plugs a slight sideways pull will leave some of
the prong clearly visible. This doesn't happen nearly so readily with
a three-prong plug, and I believe that's a safety advantage even if the
ground isn't used.

Tim.
  #30   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:01:04 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
pixelated:

Speaking of tool addictions...is there a 12-step program
for that? scritch, scritch, scritch


The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?


Nearly any "house brand" item from Harbor Freight will occasionally be put
on sale for 1/2 price. Currently I don't see any on sale but there are two
on sale for Inside Track Club members. Item # 43471 is currently $15.97,
usually $29.99 and item # 42203 is $12.97, normally $27.99.


I make it down to Medford every month or two for those HFT
half price sales. What a selection! And some stuff is so cheap
that it's great to use merely as a pattern for a real tool.
Cheap tools are great fun.

But the best deal I've found is from Homier Mobile Merchants,
http://www.homier.com. They have a traveling truckload tool sale that comes
through the area a couple of times a year and the last two times they were
here they had them for $5.99! I bought two about a year ago and I'm still
on the first one. Of course the 2nd one may fall apart as soon as I take it
out of the box but for that price I won't complain too much. :-)


Oh yes you will! You'll be taking the second one out of the box
because the first one had died and then where will you be? Get
that second one out and put the first one away. Then you'll KNOW
you have two good (?) grinders. I picked up a Makita 4-1/2 for $35
and it has been a good little machine. Well, the little I use it.



On their Web site there is a link to sign up for notification of when they
will be in your area. Since the Harbor Freight store opened here in
Charlotte they haven't actually come to Charlotte but they've been to nearly
every city around me, usually within 20-30 miles or so. A month ago they
were in the area and had autodark welding helmets for $39.99!


There was a junk truck like that coming around here earlier
this year, but most of the stuff wouldn't have made Harbor
Fright grade. Real Chiwanese trash. Wannabemetal pliers,
annealed drill bits of the same "metal". Hah!



Jeff (Who confesses to being a loyal HF customer for his "hobby grade"
equipment.)


Ditto here. Most stuff is just OK, some is real trash, some
real treasures.


"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient science...)


or...


-------------------------------------------------------
"i" before "e", except after "c", what a weird society.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications


  #31   Report Post  
Keith Marshall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

Speaking of tool addictions...is there a 12-step program
for that? scritch, scritch, scritch

I wouldn't know. I still enjoy my addiction too much to think about curing
it. :-D

Cheap tools are great fun.


I can't afford the good stuff so I've learned to enjoy the challenge of
doing good work with the cheap tools.

Oh yes you will! You'll be taking the second one out of the box

because the first one had died and then where will you be? Get
that second one out and put the first one away. Then you'll KNOW
you have two good (?) grinders.

Good point. I did at least pull it out and make sure it worked while the
company was still in town though. I learned that one the hard way.

There was a junk truck like that coming around here earlier

this year, but most of the stuff wouldn't have made Harbor
Fright grade. Real Chiwanese trash. Wannabemetal pliers,
annealed drill bits of the same "metal". Hah!

That's probably Cummins. Homier isn't too far behind Harbor Freight on most
things but the stuff Cummins had when they came to town was pure garbage. I
bought one of their 6-inch bench grinders and it wouldn't hardly sharpen a
1/4" drill bit without bogging down. :-(

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"The universe is full of magical things,
patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper."
-Eden Phillpotts, A Shadow Passes, 1934
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:01:04 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
pixelated:

Speaking of tool addictions...is there a 12-step program
for that? scritch, scritch, scritch


The least expensive angle grinder was a 4.5 " unit for $39.95. They

didn't
seem to know anything about $14.95 units. Where do you find them?


Nearly any "house brand" item from Harbor Freight will occasionally be

put
on sale for 1/2 price. Currently I don't see any on sale but there are

two
on sale for Inside Track Club members. Item # 43471 is currently $15.97,
usually $29.99 and item # 42203 is $12.97, normally $27.99.


I make it down to Medford every month or two for those HFT
half price sales. What a selection! And some stuff is so cheap
that it's great to use merely as a pattern for a real tool.
Cheap tools are great fun.

But the best deal I've found is from Homier Mobile Merchants,
http://www.homier.com. They have a traveling truckload tool sale that
comes
through the area a couple of times a year and the last two times they

were
here they had them for $5.99! I bought two about a year ago and I'm

still
on the first one. Of course the 2nd one may fall apart as soon as I take

it
out of the box but for that price I won't complain too much. :-)


Oh yes you will! You'll be taking the second one out of the box
because the first one had died and then where will you be? Get
that second one out and put the first one away. Then you'll KNOW
you have two good (?) grinders. I picked up a Makita 4-1/2 for $35
and it has been a good little machine. Well, the little I use it.



On their Web site there is a link to sign up for notification of when

they
will be in your area. Since the Harbor Freight store opened here in
Charlotte they haven't actually come to Charlotte but they've been to

nearly
every city around me, usually within 20-30 miles or so. A month ago they
were in the area and had autodark welding helmets for $39.99!


There was a junk truck like that coming around here earlier
this year, but most of the stuff wouldn't have made Harbor
Fright grade. Real Chiwanese trash. Wannabemetal pliers,
annealed drill bits of the same "metal". Hah!



Jeff (Who confesses to being a loyal HF customer for his "hobby

grade"
equipment.)


Ditto here. Most stuff is just OK, some is real trash, some
real treasures.


"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird

ancient science...)

or...


-------------------------------------------------------
"i" before "e", except after "c", what a weird society.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications



  #32   Report Post  
John Flanagan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability

On 19 Jul 2003 20:00:40 -0700, (Tim Shoppa)
wrote:

Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
Double insulated tools don't need a third wire, even on 240V.
The only possible problem (if it was double insulated) would be if there
is a code problem with connecting a 3 pin plug to a 2 wire cord.


Three-prong plugs are far less likely to "fall out" or get bent if
stressed. The flat shape of the North American 15A live/neutral prongs
is a big mistake, I notice that most overseas plugs use no flat prongs
at all, an obvious improvement over the US design. In any event,
the poor design of the US 2-prong plug is supplemented
by a nice sturdy circular ground prong in the 3-prong version.

I do not like seeing any part of a live prong exposed under any circumstances,
but with US two-prong plugs a slight sideways pull will leave some of
the prong clearly visible. This doesn't happen nearly so readily with
a three-prong plug, and I believe that's a safety advantage even if the
ground isn't used.


America Basher :^)!! I would agree, but then again the US doesn't use
240VAC for your kids to play with :^). So the best thing, IMO, would
be a better designed plug using only 120VAC. I can't tell you how
many times I've shocked myself with 120, hurts a little but no damage.
I imagine 240 has a bit more of a kick.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.
  #34   Report Post  
Charles A. Sherwood
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cheap import tools and product liability (was: Violent Electric Drill Accident)

I recently stopped into the locaal Evergreen hardware in AJ AZ to buy a nail
(or screw) and noted a small angle grinder on the counter with a price of $6.95
on it. Yep-$6.95. I thot it was mismarked but they had a whole stack of
them. I bought on. Haven't plugged it in yet.


My brother bought one at a flee market that appeared to be from Harbor
freight. It was new and still in the box. I figured the guy bought a
bunch on sale and made a few bucks on each at the flee market. He used
it once and it died. I hear others have had better luck.

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2023 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"