On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 07:09:57 -0500, wrote:

snipped
BTW the "No GFCI" is what killed the "out the window" thing.
Out the kitchen or bath window you have GFCI - by code mot basement
ouitlets as well - not???

Now you are assuming the HVAC unit is close to the kitchen or bath.

Or the basement - or the garage - - - -

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 16:20:45 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 07:09:57 -0500, wrote:

snipped
BTW the "No GFCI" is what killed the "out the window" thing.
Out the kitchen or bath window you have GFCI - by code mot basement
ouitlets as well - not???

Now you are assuming the HVAC unit is close to the kitchen or bath.

Or the basement - or the garage - - - -

In my case they would be SOL, there is nothing GFCI near the HVAC
equipment. It is 2 bedrooms on that end of the house. There is no
window in the closest bathroom, no basement and the garage is ~100'
away as the cord flies. Fortunately I have no shortage of outside GFCI
protected receptacles, including one run when the wiring was put in
for the condenser. It also feeds my computer room tho. (used to be a
bedroom)

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 9:15:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

ROFL

That's what I immediately thought too. If I didn't already have GFCI
in the wet locations, garage and outdoors, I would add it. Cheap, easy
and could be a lifesaver. Yet the leading lib that's all for all kinds
of regulation of everything, doesn't care in his own house.

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 11:36:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:01:42 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 7:42:11 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 12:15:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Typical answer from someone who has never owned a business. If you
touch it you own it. If that tech screws with your screen and breaks
it, you are buying the customer a new screen. On some window systems
that might be the whole profit you expected to make on the call. It is
called "risk" and successful companies avoid risk.
For that matter, plenty of guys wouldn't trust their wife or kids to
take out the screen. Are you coming home from work to do it?
If you think it is a stupid idea, the ROP for the 2023 is open right
now. Write a proposal.

If a guy can't trust his wife to remove a window screen, he married
the wrong woman. Every time we clean the windows I have to remind
my husband that it's a big fricking deal to remove the screens. Stupid
1980s windows. Grumble, grumble, grumble. Still, the inconvenience
is minor and the cost to replace them is high.

It's a different story, of course, if it's due to age and/or infirmity.

Cindy Hamilton

You can't make Fretwell happy. He claims it's too difficult to run an
extension out a window. So, you say that it would be a good idea that
instead of the code focusing only on AC units, it should
require outdoor receptacles spaced so a 25 ft ext could
cover the perimeter, and then he doesn't like that and says you just
want to argue.

I am just talking about what CMP 2 decided. If you think they are full
of ****, write a proposal but they are going to say running cords out
of windows from a circuit that may not be GFCI is not acceptable.

Again, how do you get that I think anyone involved in NEC is full of ****?
And again, I was the first one here to bring up the issue of cords out
windows potentially not being GFCI, so IDK why you keep harping about that.
And again, what I actually said was that if the code folks are concerned
about the rare times an HVAC guy will show up and need power to run a pump
outside, then they should change the code to cover the very common outdoor
needs that occur at most homes very frequently, not just an AC pump
need, maybe once every ten or twenty years. Things like electric leaf
blowers, power washers, mowers, chain saws, trimmers,
paint sprayers, Xmas lights. Why just the AC? To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.

In article ,
says...
ROFL

That's what I immediately thought too. If I didn't already have GFCI
in the wet locations, garage and outdoors, I would add it. Cheap, easy
and could be a lifesaver. Yet the leading lib that's all for all kinds
of regulation of everything, doesn't care in his own house.





Don't they make drop cords that have a GFCI in them ,or boxes that you
can buy to do the same thing ?

Don't they make drop cords that have a GFCI in them ,or boxes that you
can buy to do the same thing ?


Yep.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/hus...fci/1000658960

Perhaps not as common as years past ?
... cordless tools have taken over ..
John T.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:45:31 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 11:36:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:01:42 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 7:42:11 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 12:15:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Typical answer from someone who has never owned a business. If you
touch it you own it. If that tech screws with your screen and breaks
it, you are buying the customer a new screen. On some window systems
that might be the whole profit you expected to make on the call. It is
called "risk" and successful companies avoid risk.
For that matter, plenty of guys wouldn't trust their wife or kids to
take out the screen. Are you coming home from work to do it?
If you think it is a stupid idea, the ROP for the 2023 is open right
now. Write a proposal.

If a guy can't trust his wife to remove a window screen, he married
the wrong woman. Every time we clean the windows I have to remind
my husband that it's a big fricking deal to remove the screens. Stupid
1980s windows. Grumble, grumble, grumble. Still, the inconvenience
is minor and the cost to replace them is high.

It's a different story, of course, if it's due to age and/or infirmity.

Cindy Hamilton

You can't make Fretwell happy. He claims it's too difficult to run an
extension out a window. So, you say that it would be a good idea that
instead of the code focusing only on AC units, it should
require outdoor receptacles spaced so a 25 ft ext could
cover the perimeter, and then he doesn't like that and says you just
want to argue.

I am just talking about what CMP 2 decided. If you think they are full
of ****, write a proposal but they are going to say running cords out
of windows from a circuit that may not be GFCI is not acceptable.

Again, how do you get that I think anyone involved in NEC is full of ****?
And again, I was the first one here to bring up the issue of cords out
windows potentially not being GFCI, so IDK why you keep harping about that.
And again, what I actually said was that if the code folks are concerned
about the rare times an HVAC guy will show up and need power to run a pump
outside, then they should change the code to cover the very common outdoor
needs that occur at most homes very frequently, not just an AC pump
need, maybe once every ten or twenty years. Things like electric leaf
blowers, power washers, mowers, chain saws, trimmers,
paint sprayers, Xmas lights. Why just the AC? To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.


Write a proposal but I would suggest 50' is a more realistic number
but try 25 if you like. See what they say. You could get your 15
minutes of fame if it is adopted. I used to write at least one
proposal per cycle to get my free hard copy ROP but I believe now that
it is on line they don't mail the hard copy anymore.
BTW I did get one "accepted in principle" when they rewrote the rules
on clothes closet lighting to take into account LEDs.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 12:23:37 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
ROFL

That's what I immediately thought too. If I didn't already have GFCI
in the wet locations, garage and outdoors, I would add it. Cheap, easy
and could be a lifesaver. Yet the leading lib that's all for all kinds
of regulation of everything, doesn't care in his own house.





Don't they make drop cords that have a GFCI in them ,or boxes that you
can buy to do the same thing ?


Yes, in fact a lot of guys carry them because they test them and know
they work.

On 11/9/19 3:20 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 07:09:57 -0500, wrote:

snipped
BTW the "No GFCI" is what killed the "out the window" thing.
Out the kitchen or bath window you have GFCI - by code mot basement
ouitlets as well - not???

Now you are assuming the HVAC unit is close to the kitchen or bath.

Or the basement - or the garage - - - -

The 2 windows next to my HVAC unit are bedrooms (outlets inside but no
GFCI). The outdoor outlet is 28 feet away.

--
45 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good
blaster at your side." [Han Solo]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 10:45:37 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.

Are you talking every house should be retrofitted immediately, or
as the opportunity arises (say, other outdoor electrical work is
being done), or just for new construction?

I'd sure hate to have to drill through the split-fieldstone veneer over
concrete block that comes down to the ground on three sides of my house.

Stick-built houses are really much easier to work with. Every time
we need to make a penetration we rent a diamond-bit core drill.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 12:43:43 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 10:45:37 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.

Are you talking every house should be retrofitted immediately, or
as the opportunity arises (say, other outdoor electrical work is
being done), or just for new construction?

I'd sure hate to have to drill through the split-fieldstone veneer over
concrete block that comes down to the ground on three sides of my house.

Stick-built houses are really much easier to work with. Every time
we need to make a penetration we rent a diamond-bit core drill.

Cindy Hamilton

Typically code changes get implemented when the scope of work for
renovations affects the area where the new code would apply. In the
case of the HVAC outlet, generally it only gets installed if this is a
new install of a condenser and they are running wire out there anyway.
I have never heard of requiring an outside outlet unless this is an
addition where roughing a wire through the new wall is trivial. A lot
depends on the contractor in new construction and whether they really
give a **** about convenience for the owner or if they are cutting
every corner they can to save a buck.
I looked at a spreadsheet from 2010 (when my wife stopped building
houses) and the contract price for a GFCI outside receptacle had the
incremental cost of $30. In inside GFCI receptacle was $25. (although
it got negotiated down to $3 less per)

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/A%20...%20Florida.xls

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:05:14 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

Most homeowners live in houses with GFCIs in places where they are
needed and the people who live in substandard ghetto housing that is
not up to code don't make the news when they are killed.

You have licensed electricians who have never suggested you put in
GFCIs?

You are lying or you have hacks in Georgia.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:16:09 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:05:14 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

Most homeowners live in houses with GFCIs in places where they are
needed and the people who live in substandard ghetto housing that is
not up to code don't make the news when they are killed.

You have licensed electricians who have never suggested you put in
GFCIs?

You are lying or you have hacks in Georgia.

I had my fuse box replaced with a breaker box along with the
inspection of my aluminum wiring for insurance purposes - and to pass
the inspection FOR THE PANEL - not the wiring condition, I had to
install GFCI devices.

Replaced all devices with CoALR and where that was not possible
pigtailed with copper using Marrette ACS wirenuts - the only wirenuts
approved for that purpose in Ontario (No, the Ideal Purple ones are
NOT approved according to my inspector) - I used stranded wire for the
pigtails to reduce stress on the joints when installing the devices in
the boxes.
The electrician that did the job didn't know the inspection would
require the GFCI units to be installed. The inspector gave me a free
permit retroactively for the CoALR and pigtail retrofits which
technically require a licenced electrician (ANY device replacement -
even just changing a lamp or switch- requires a licenced electrician
when Aluminum wiring is involved)
He passed my work with no defects.

ANY device replacement - even just changing a lamp
or switch - requires a licenced electrician
when Aluminum wiring is involved.



I wonder how many people besides me
were not aware of this ! Thanks.
I've always warned people that I know -
who have aluminum wiring - to never ignore
any problematic fixtures - and get a pro for
the repairs - for safety more than legal reasons.
John T.

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 1:16:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:05:14 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

Most homeowners live in houses with GFCIs in places where they are
needed and the people who live in substandard ghetto housing that is
not up to code don't make the news when they are killed.

You have licensed electricians who have never suggested you put in
GFCIs?

You are lying or you have hacks in Georgia.


He also says he has no outside receptacles, maybe he lives in an apartment.
But otherwise just because the receptacles are not outside doesn't mean
there isn't outdoor usage of electricity, via extension cords for all
the typical uses. You could protect that with a GFCI cord, but I'm
sure he's not going to buy one of those either. It is another glaring
lib hypocrisy. They tell everyone else how to live, impose crazy
ideas, like banning bags and taxing soft drinks, but eschew very logical,
inexpensive safety devices that have been around for forty years and work.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 12:23:48 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
ROFL

That's what I immediately thought too. If I didn't already have GFCI
in the wet locations, garage and outdoors, I would add it. Cheap, easy
and could be a lifesaver. Yet the leading lib that's all for all kinds
of regulation of everything, doesn't care in his own house.





Don't they make drop cords that have a GFCI in them ,or boxes that you
can buy to do the same thing ?

Yes, but people who don't care about safety and/or are cheap aren't
likely to use them either. And you have to only use that one. If
some repair guy, (like the AC repair guy that the code is worried about)
shows up and just plugs a regular cord in, they are not protected.
Or if you have one GFCI cord and need more at Xmas, same thing, etc.
And none of that protects against dropping a hair dryer into the tub.
the GFCI cords are certainly better than nothing. And any repair
guys should have them, since they don't know what they are dealing
with at each house.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 3:43:47 PM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 10:45:37 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.

Are you talking every house should be retrofitted immediately, or
as the opportunity arises (say, other outdoor electrical work is
being done), or just for new construction?

With NEC in almost all cases new code changes only apply to new work.
For outdoor receptacles that would be pretty much new construction,
additions, major renovation.





I'd sure hate to have to drill through the split-fieldstone veneer over
concrete block that comes down to the ground on three sides of my house.

Stick-built houses are really much easier to work with. Every time
we need to make a penetration we rent a diamond-bit core drill.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 1:36:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:45:31 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 11:36:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:01:42 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 7:42:11 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 12:15:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Typical answer from someone who has never owned a business. If you
touch it you own it. If that tech screws with your screen and breaks
it, you are buying the customer a new screen. On some window systems
that might be the whole profit you expected to make on the call. It is
called "risk" and successful companies avoid risk.
For that matter, plenty of guys wouldn't trust their wife or kids to
take out the screen. Are you coming home from work to do it?
If you think it is a stupid idea, the ROP for the 2023 is open right
now. Write a proposal.

If a guy can't trust his wife to remove a window screen, he married
the wrong woman. Every time we clean the windows I have to remind
my husband that it's a big fricking deal to remove the screens. Stupid
1980s windows. Grumble, grumble, grumble. Still, the inconvenience
is minor and the cost to replace them is high.

It's a different story, of course, if it's due to age and/or infirmity.

Cindy Hamilton

You can't make Fretwell happy. He claims it's too difficult to run an
extension out a window. So, you say that it would be a good idea that
instead of the code focusing only on AC units, it should
require outdoor receptacles spaced so a 25 ft ext could
cover the perimeter, and then he doesn't like that and says you just
want to argue.

I am just talking about what CMP 2 decided. If you think they are full
of ****, write a proposal but they are going to say running cords out
of windows from a circuit that may not be GFCI is not acceptable.

Again, how do you get that I think anyone involved in NEC is full of ****?
And again, I was the first one here to bring up the issue of cords out
windows potentially not being GFCI, so IDK why you keep harping about that.
And again, what I actually said was that if the code folks are concerned
about the rare times an HVAC guy will show up and need power to run a pump
outside, then they should change the code to cover the very common outdoor
needs that occur at most homes very frequently, not just an AC pump
need, maybe once every ten or twenty years. Things like electric leaf
blowers, power washers, mowers, chain saws, trimmers,
paint sprayers, Xmas lights. Why just the AC? To address the general
problem the code should require outdoor receptacles that are accessible
within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter. I wouldn't think that would
be controversial, but here we are.


Write a proposal but I would suggest 50' is a more realistic number
but try 25 if you like.

I said have one located within 25 ft of any point on the perimeter.
I think that's very reasonable, it's one receptacle every 50 ft.
It's the same as what's there now for the AC, 25 ft.




See what they say. You could get your 15
minutes of fame if it is adopted. I used to write at least one
proposal per cycle to get my free hard copy ROP but I believe now that
it is on line they don't mail the hard copy anymore.
BTW I did get one "accepted in principle" when they rewrote the rules
on clothes closet lighting to take into account LEDs.

IF I have nothing better to do, maybe I'll look into that. We have to
look out for guys like Vic.

In article ,
says...
Yes, but people who don't care about safety and/or are cheap aren't
likely to use them either. And you have to only use that one. If
some repair guy, (like the AC repair guy that the code is worried about)
shows up and just plugs a regular cord in, they are not protected.
Or if you have one GFCI cord and need more at Xmas, same thing, etc.
And none of that protects against dropping a hair dryer into the tub.
the GFCI cords are certainly better than nothing. And any repair
guys should have them, since they don't know what they are dealing
with at each house.




I have seen some hair dryers with a GFCI , or something like it) on the
dryer cord.

In article ,
says...

Replaced all devices with CoALR and where that was not possible
pigtailed with copper using Marrette ACS wirenuts - the only wirenuts
approved for that purpose in Ontario (No, the Ideal Purple ones are
NOT approved according to my inspector) - I used stranded wire for the
pigtails to reduce stress on the joints when installing the devices in
the boxes.
The electrician that did the job didn't know the inspection would
require the GFCI units to be installed. The inspector gave me a free
permit retroactively for the CoALR and pigtail retrofits which
technically require a licenced electrician (ANY device replacement -
even just changing a lamp or switch- requires a licenced electrician
when Aluminum wiring is involved)
He passed my work with no defects.



I have not seen any, but read there are some compression couplings that
allow you to install pigtails of copper to the aluminum wiring.
It does take a special compression tool as the common compression type
pliers do not have enough force to do the job.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:46:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Yes, but people who don't care about safety and/or are cheap aren't
likely to use them either. And you have to only use that one. If
some repair guy, (like the AC repair guy that the code is worried about)
shows up and just plugs a regular cord in, they are not protected.
Or if you have one GFCI cord and need more at Xmas, same thing, etc.
And none of that protects against dropping a hair dryer into the tub.
the GFCI cords are certainly better than nothing. And any repair
guys should have them, since they don't know what they are dealing
with at each house.




I have seen some hair dryers with a GFCI , or something like it) on the
dryer cord.


That is an immersion detector, similar to a GFCI except the reference
point is to a wire ring inside the throat of the hair dryer, not in
imbalance of the in and out current.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:49:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Replaced all devices with CoALR and where that was not possible
pigtailed with copper using Marrette ACS wirenuts - the only wirenuts
approved for that purpose in Ontario (No, the Ideal Purple ones are
NOT approved according to my inspector) - I used stranded wire for the
pigtails to reduce stress on the joints when installing the devices in
the boxes.
The electrician that did the job didn't know the inspection would
require the GFCI units to be installed. The inspector gave me a free
permit retroactively for the CoALR and pigtail retrofits which
technically require a licenced electrician (ANY device replacement -
even just changing a lamp or switch- requires a licenced electrician
when Aluminum wiring is involved)
He passed my work with no defects.



I have not seen any, but read there are some compression couplings that
allow you to install pigtails of copper to the aluminum wiring.
It does take a special compression tool as the common compression type
pliers do not have enough force to do the job.

It is the Copalum connector that requires a special tool and a
certified installer. If you have room in the boxes there is also the
Alumiconn, from King Innovation that is essentially a small bus bar in
an insulated enclosure and each lug is Cu/Al rated. The Ideal 65
(purple) is U/L listed and still technically legal. It is the CPSC
that doesn't like them.
US and Canada disagree on a number of similar devices so I am not
surprised that they like their home grown Marrette and not our
Wirenut.
Aluminum wire is an interesting thing. All aluminum wire is not bad.
If the alloy is AAxx it is OK, It was only the original 6250 that was
the problem but once the reputation was established the myth
continued. The problem also only involved binding screw connections.
Wire in lugs was never a problem it they were properly torqued. A
loose connection is never good.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:16:09 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:05:14 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

Most homeowners live in houses with GFCIs in places where they are
needed and the people who live in substandard ghetto housing that is
not up to code don't make the news when they are killed.

You have licensed electricians who have never suggested you put in
GFCIs?

You are lying or you have hacks in Georgia.


Why would I pay to have an electrician fly from Georgia to Morton Grove, IL?
Homes here are metal conduit, nearly all built prior to GFCI. Unless they had a kitchen
or bathroom remodel, THEY DON'T HAVE GFCIs.
I just had a licensed electrician put a 60 amp breaker and a generator interlock in my
service panel, and a village inspector pass the work. Neither said squat about GFCI.
My SIL is a ****ing electrical contractor, and been all over this house, washing his hands
countless times 2 feet below an unprotected outlet. Never said squat.
I know about GFCIs, and AFCIs, and will have appropriate breakers installed when I feel
like doing it. Until then, if a contractor wants GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it
with him. Which is where this conversation started, and hopefully ends.

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 1:05:38 PM UTC-5, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:16:09 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:05:14 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:41:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:02:07 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 07:19:11 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 22:42:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 11:10:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:21:34 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:



We've had the electrical inspector out a few times, most recently for the
automatic standby generator. He never said boo about receptacles.


Yeah, me too. I don't have a single GFCI in my house. If a contractor wants GFCI
protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Safety doesn't matter to you I guess.
OK by me. It is just a strange position for a bleeding heart liberal
who thinks there is nothing we should not do if it saves a single
life. (or the 400-500 that die from electrocution each year and the
30,000 that get treated for electrical related injuries).

Hey, I thought "bleeding heart liberals" did everything the NEC told them to do.
That would be you.

I am not talking about every stupid thing they put in the NEC but the
GFCI is probably the biggest safety advance in 40 years. You have to
be pretty silly not to use it.

For what? I have no outside receptacles, no kitchen receptacles close to water and don't
use the bathroom outlet. Tell you what; if I get an electric toothbrush or a new kitchen
I'll put in dual function breakers for needed circuits. Until then, if a contractor wants
GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it with him.

Whatever rationalizations work for you. It is just strange that you
want to ban assault rifles when more people get electrocuted every
year than get killed by rifles, all types assault or otherwise yet you
won't use the most basic electrical safety product.

Huh? You're nuts. I don't recall reading of any homeowner electrocutions in ages.
Keep in mind I don't chew on wires. I suppose next you'll want OSHA inspectors in my
house. No thanks. BTW, I have all electrical work done by licensed professionals.
I don't touch the stuff. As far as assault weapons, there no sense arguing with a gun nut.

Most homeowners live in houses with GFCIs in places where they are
needed and the people who live in substandard ghetto housing that is
not up to code don't make the news when they are killed.

You have licensed electricians who have never suggested you put in
GFCIs?

You are lying or you have hacks in Georgia.


Why would I pay to have an electrician fly from Georgia to Morton Grove, IL?
Homes here are metal conduit, nearly all built prior to GFCI. Unless they had a kitchen
or bathroom remodel, THEY DON'T HAVE GFCIs.
I just had a licensed electrician put a 60 amp breaker and a generator interlock in my
service panel, and a village inspector pass the work. Neither said squat about GFCI.

Unless they looked around the whole house, checked wet locations, etc,
they wouldn't know whether you have GFCI or not. They were there for
specific work on a permit. But if you called in
a competent electrician to do any work where they realized that kitchen,
bathrooms, outside were not GFCI, like Fretwell, I'd be surprised if
they didn't recommend adding it.


My SIL is a ****ing electrical contractor, and been all over this house, washing his hands
countless times 2 feet below an unprotected outlet. Never said squat.

Well, so much for his competence.



I know about GFCIs, and AFCIs, and will have appropriate breakers installed when I feel
like doing it.

GFCI have been required for about four decades now, so if you haven't
decided to put them in by now, I'd say it's not happening. BTW, you
don't need breakers, in fact GFCI receptacles are better, since you
can reset a trip right there.



Until then, if a contractor wants GFCI protection, he'll have to bring it
with him. Which is where this conversation started, and hopefully ends.

Wonder if your SIL does?

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 11:33:21 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:49:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Replaced all devices with CoALR and where that was not possible
pigtailed with copper using Marrette ACS wirenuts - the only wirenuts
approved for that purpose in Ontario (No, the Ideal Purple ones are
NOT approved according to my inspector) - I used stranded wire for the
pigtails to reduce stress on the joints when installing the devices in
the boxes.
The electrician that did the job didn't know the inspection would
require the GFCI units to be installed. The inspector gave me a free
permit retroactively for the CoALR and pigtail retrofits which
technically require a licenced electrician (ANY device replacement -
even just changing a lamp or switch- requires a licenced electrician
when Aluminum wiring is involved)
He passed my work with no defects.



I have not seen any, but read there are some compression couplings that
allow you to install pigtails of copper to the aluminum wiring.
It does take a special compression tool as the common compression type
pliers do not have enough force to do the job.

It is the Copalum connector that requires a special tool and a
certified installer. If you have room in the boxes there is also the
Alumiconn, from King Innovation that is essentially a small bus bar in
an insulated enclosure and each lug is Cu/Al rated. The Ideal 65
(purple) is U/L listed and still technically legal. It is the CPSC
that doesn't like them.
US and Canada disagree on a number of similar devices so I am not
surprised that they like their home grown Marrette and not our
Wirenut.
Aluminum wire is an interesting thing. All aluminum wire is not bad.
If the alloy is AAxx it is OK, It was only the original 6250 that was
the problem but once the reputation was established the myth
continued. The problem also only involved binding screw connections.
Wire in lugs was never a problem it they were properly torqued. A
loose connection is never good.
Copalum certified installers in Canada are scarcer than hen's teeth.
The certification cost and rental cost of the tools (they can not be
purchaced - or at least they were not available in Canada 5 years ago)
makes the cost per termination daunting to say the least. Terminations
run $15 to $25 per connection.
Allumicons are also CSA approved and cost about $3 each in quantiitee
uphere - and require a calibrated torque scewdriver for reliable
installation. Common adjustable torque drivers run close to $300.
Presets run around $100 each for decent quality name brand tools.

The thermoplastic purple ideal connectors are a small increment better
than leaving the aluminum wiring alone. The biggest problem is IF the
sonnection overheats the ideal is flammable - the ACS is not. The
design of the "coil" in the connector is also different - and the
ideal is inferior. It has NOTHING to do with the Marrette being
Canadian and the Ideal american.Canadian electrical standards are
significantly more stringent than American regs

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 11:21:43 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:46:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Yes, but people who don't care about safety and/or are cheap aren't
likely to use them either. And you have to only use that one. If
some repair guy, (like the AC repair guy that the code is worried about)
shows up and just plugs a regular cord in, they are not protected.
Or if you have one GFCI cord and need more at Xmas, same thing, etc.
And none of that protects against dropping a hair dryer into the tub.
the GFCI cords are certainly better than nothing. And any repair
guys should have them, since they don't know what they are dealing
with at each house.




I have seen some hair dryers with a GFCI , or something like it) on the
dryer cord.


That is an immersion detector, similar to a GFCI except the reference
point is to a wire ring inside the throat of the hair dryer, not in
imbalance of the in and out current.
Actually BOTH exist. The Wellong P8S is a commonly used GFCI plug
assembly allong with the outdoor rated 3 wire GF9