Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing
a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but
what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a
running car?

Asks the unemployable ******/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your
stated IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. ****ing great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

You posted them, you freak.
I enjoy taking the **** out of ******s, and you are a ******.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:36:25 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing
a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but
what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a
running car?

Asks the unemployable ******/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your
stated IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

Not admitting to your IQ then?

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. ****ing great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

You posted them, you freak.
I enjoy taking the **** out of ******s, and you are a ******.

Because I disagree with your illogical beliefs?

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:43:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:12:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads.

Just because YOU

It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

added no loads doesn't mean the loads in the car are not changing.

And what would these imaginary loads be?

I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

Given that it's typically a dumb, passive component device, that seems
unlikely. And if it's true, then there should be plenty of discussion
about it at online resources, yet so far, neither you nor Rod can
produce anything.

Why can't you believe the ECU monitors the battery?

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.

Rod claims that they have an extra sensing wire at the battery terminal
and use the voltage there versus the voltage at the other end of the
cable, to determine the current. I seriously doubt that, for obvious
reasons involving the very large gauge cable and current of interest.

It could only be mV, but easy enough to sense with modern electronics. Or how about an amp clamp?

How about you stop speculating and show us some references?

I've told you how easy it would be. It would be illogical not to do that. And no I'm not going to do your homework for you.

And he can't produce a damn thing from anywhere that says that's what
they do, except his own worthless statements. If it's done that way
anywhere, it's not done on the cars I've seen here, that have just one
battery cable on the positive terminal.

Every UK car has 2 or 3 cables on the battery positive. America is infamous for being behind the times.

Yeah, the UK is a real powerhouse in the auto industry, what with Triumps
that fell apart and all.

I never mentioned UK made cars.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:59 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 6:54:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:53:21 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 12:27:13 PM UTC-4, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to
drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
longer be charged at a high rate.

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
for the charge.

Two resistors?

The issue is not how it can be measured, the question is if any cars
actually do it, ie measure the current flowing into the battery and
use it to control the alternator. I've never seen it, never heard of
it. So far, all we have is Rod's flapping gums and he's made all kinds
of false claims and lies here.

And my claim that my car's alternator drops from 144V to 13.8V when the battery becomes full.

And he said they don't use a resistor,
that they just use the resistance of the battery cable. That doesn't
make sense to us, for obvious reasons. So, we're still waiting for
Rod to show us some documentation of what he claims cars do......

You do realise wires have resistance?

You do realize that the stupid Aussie troll who lies about most everything,
pontificating on some system, some method, does not mean that is what's
actually used? Show us some references or STFU.

It is a sensible idea likely to be used.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:25 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:25:04 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:29:26 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:41:22 AM UTC-4, Xeno wrote:
On 22/6/19 7:58 pm, Rod Speed wrote:


"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 22/6/19 9:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.

Nope.

The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the
charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery
and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the
battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a
bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter
only to prevent overloading the supply.

It actually specify the current being supplied.

The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the
battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's
actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench
supply.

Correction

Nope.

the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

+1
You are 100% correct.

You do realize who you are dealing with here, right? Here is some of
the other BS he posted and then just continued to lie about, refuse
to acknowledge it was all wrong:

How can one dope be wrong on so many things?



The 737 MCAS doesn't rely on just one AOA sensor (It does)

The FAA would never approve that design (They did)

[snip]

You've already posted all that ****e. Repeating yourself is a sign of illness.

No, arguing with the Aussie troll who has a track record of BS and lies
is the illness. Maybe you don't care about anyone's credibility and
will debate nuclear physics with the village idiot who lies about most
things. Do so at your own risk.

He may be an argumentative prick, but he does know a fair bit about a lot of things.

And you're the one that keeps going on and on about things he's said. You're trolling him, I'm arguing and discussing with him.

Feel free to get a room with the asshole. He's the troll, not me. Arguing
is exactly what the troll wants. There is nothing to argue about. Rod
made some specific claims, I asked for any references to back it up, he
has come up with NOTHING. Capiche?

What's this obsession with references? FFS grow up.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:15 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:07:16 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:55:23 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:32:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:20:37 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 7:58:11 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator
only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going
into the battery, or past it to the loads.

Not when there is more than one wire going to the
positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.

You are so ignorant, it's beyond belief. I have three vehicles here,
not one has more than the battery cable going to it.

I've owned about 15 vehicles, and they've all had two or three, I guess they design them differently in different countries.

Nor have I even
seen a car that has more than one. It certainly may exist, but to
say that it *always* has more than one wire to the battery positive
terminal is beyond stupid. Are you as sure about that as you were
about all these other things you claimed to know so much about?


How can one dope be wrong on so many things?



The 737 MCAS doesn't rely on just one AOA sensor (It does)

The FAA would never approve that design (They did)

How sad do you have to be to collect so many quotes from somebody?


What other way would you suggest to document that Rod is full of **** most
of the time?

Well sane people only moan about something daft he says once, when he says it. Collecting the quotes and repeating them over and over just makes you more of a troll than him.


No, it documents

That proves you're a troll right there, you're "documenting" him. Get a ****ing life.

that he's a lying asshole

Is that a hole you put donkeys in? It's arsehole. An ass is an animal.

that's wrong about many things,
adamantly asserting his ignorance and will never acknowledge when he's
wrong. But feel free to argue with the troll. He's like a pig in the
mud, he enjoys it and doesn't care that he's proven wrong.

I see nothing sensible from you in the discussion, he's the only one who has explained my observations.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 04:28:24 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 3:07:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:39:09 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:45:08 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the
alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly
flat
battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no
loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the
current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging
at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator
like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can
do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

That was my original question - on an old car, there is no way for the
regulator to tell the difference between the battery still charging at
10 amps and the headlamps being switched on.

Probably on most or all new cars too. Why change what works?





And so far I haven't seen any evidence presented here that shows modern
ones can tell the difference and care about it either. The ones I've
seen, still have a voltage regulator in the alternator that functions
like it has for most of the last century. Rod claims to know so much,
including that they use the resistance of the battery cable to measure
current, but he can't produce anything other than his own flapping BS
gums and he's likely just doing the usual, making it up on the fly
and lying.

What he says sounds very easy to implement, and it would make sense to
allow the battery to be put on fast charge after starting it, then go
back to trickle later. And my own car certainly does change the voltage
after a while. 14.4 then 13.8.

I disagree, what he says makes no sense for obvious reasons that another
poster described. And AFAIK, the VR just targets voltage, that Rod is
bloviating his usual BS doesn't change that.
But heh, if you or Rod have a reference that describes this
"new" system, that uses the resistance of the battery cable to measure
current and then the computer controls the VR, let's see it. Otherwise,
I say your question is answered,
the VR doesn't know or care where the current is going, it just maintains
a system voltage of ~14V.

His car clearly doesnt, ****wit child.

And it's French! So I'd assume normal cars are even more likely to do so.

"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 24/6/19 7:42 pm, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:11:16 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:48:56 -0700, % wrote:

On 2019-06-21 1:19 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

the catalytic converter tells it
I can tell you how an alternator does it, chargerscan do it
differently. AN alternator doesn't "switch to trickle charge". AN
alternator limits the output voltage. A battery will only accept a
certain amount of charge at any voltage. At 14.6 volts it basically
stops taking a charge. The regulator is set to limit the voltage to a
specified voltage - 13.8 or 14.2, or something similar. An alternator
is intrinsically current limitted so will not provide more than the
rated current, If the battery open circuit voltage is below 12 volts
it will tale pretty close to whatever the alternator can put out, as
the open circuit voltage increases, the amount of charge it will
accept decreases, untill at 14.6 volts or whatever is designed as full
charge, it will no longer accept ANY charge. As the load changes, the
alternator provides more or less current as required to maintain the
fully charged voltage.

Clear as mud???

Bingo! Thank you. Exactly what I and Xeno have been saying and now
we have a mechanic confirming it.

We had a mechanic confirming it when I was saying it since I am also a
mechanic. Served an apprenticeship and been in the trade since the 60s.
;-)

Problem is that you are so stupid that you can't even manage
to work out that there is no open circuit voltage in a car with
the alternator charging the battery, so something else has to
be used to work out when the battery is charged, and that can
only be the current its taking and that is easy to measure when
there is more than one wire at the battery positive terminal.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 02:26:38 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 3:07:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:39:09 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:45:08 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full, but the
voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

That was my original question - on an old car, there is no way for the regulator to tell the difference between the battery still charging at 10 amps and the headlamps being switched on.

Probably on most or all new cars too. Why change what works?

But it didn't work. Stop start activities like short shop runs, taxi drivers, etc, everyone got flat batteries. Modern cars presumably do a fast charge after starting. So they need to know when to slow down the charge rate.

And so far I haven't seen any evidence presented here that shows modern
ones can tell the difference and care about it either. The ones I've
seen, still have a voltage regulator in the alternator that functions
like it has for most of the last century. Rod claims to know so much,
including that they use the resistance of the battery cable to measure
current, but he can't produce anything other than his own flapping BS
gums and he's likely just doing the usual, making it up on the fly
and lying.

What he says sounds very easy to implement, and it would make sense to allow the battery to be put on fast charge after starting it, then go back to trickle later. And my own car certainly does change the voltage after a while. 14.4 then 13.8.

I disagree, what he says makes no sense for obvious reasons that another
poster described. And AFAIK, the VR just targets voltage, that Rod is
bloviating his usual BS doesn't change that.
But heh, if you or Rod have a reference that describes this
"new" system, that uses the resistance of the battery cable to measure
current and then the computer controls the VR, let's see it. Otherwise,
I say your question is answered,
the VR doesn't know or care where the current is going, it just maintains
a system voltage of ~14V.

Wrong, I've ****ing well measured it myself, for the fifth time!!

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:33:08 +0100, TMS320, yet another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered again:


You asked.

Nope, senile asshole! HE baited, and YOU bit!

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:06:50 AM UTC-4, Xeno wrote:
On 24/6/19 7:42 pm, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:11:16 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:48:56 -0700, % wrote:

On 2019-06-21 1:19 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

the catalytic converter tells it
I can tell you how an alternator does it, chargerscan do it
differently. AN alternator doesn't "switch to trickle charge". AN
alternator limits the output voltage. A battery will only accept a
certain amount of charge at any voltage. At 14.6 volts it basically
stops taking a charge. The regulator is set to limit the voltage to a
specified voltage - 13.8 or 14.2, or something similar. An alternator
is intrinsically current limitted so will not provide more than the
rated current, If the battery open circuit voltage is below 12 volts
it will tale pretty close to whatever the alternator can put out, as
the open circuit voltage increases, the amount of charge it will
accept decreases, untill at 14.6 volts or whatever is designed as full
charge, it will no longer accept ANY charge. As the load changes, the
alternator provides more or less current as required to maintain the
fully charged voltage.

Clear as mud???

Bingo! Thank you. Exactly what I and Xeno have been saying and now
we have a mechanic confirming it.

We had a mechanic confirming it when I was saying it since I am also a
mechanic. Served an apprenticeship and been in the trade since the 60s.
;-)

Oh, didn't know that. There may be a different, more advanced charging
system on some new cars, but no one has been able to show it

The OP clearly has with his 2002 Renault. Hardly a new car.

or why it would be used.

To avoid over charging the battery, ****wit.

And we know the basic alternator/VR system that just targets
a voltage has worked for the better part of the last century.

Alternators were no in fact used for the best part of the last century.

Basically all cars before say 2010, the alternator VOLTAGE is regulated to 13.4 to 14.5 volts and the battery draws as much current as it need to, to charge.
When the battery is fully charged it draws only a small current. The exact voltage the alternator is regulated to actually changes a little with temperature, up a little in cold down in hot. That battery university web site has a lot of good detail.

BUT,

I did hear that some newer cars have some weird mode where the computer sets the alternator to a lower voltage as a fuel saving measure. That may be what the poster was seeing.

What year was the car you saw this behavior?

m

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 03:23:59 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The OP clearly has with his 2002 Renault.

The OP cannot be believed about ANYTHING he spouts! It's all always for
attention with him, senile idiot!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

wrote

Basically all cars before say 2010, the alternator
VOLTAGE is regulated to 13.4 to 14.5 volts

The OP's 2002 Renault clearly isnt.

and the battery draws as much current as it need to, to charge.
When the battery is fully charged it draws only a small current.
The exact voltage the alternator is regulated to actually changes
a little with temperature, up a little in cold down in hot. That
battery university web site has a lot of good detail.

BUT,

I did hear that some newer cars have some weird mode where
the computer sets the alternator to a lower voltage as a fuel
saving measure. That may be what the poster was seeing.

What year was the car you saw this behavior?

2002

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 03:16:41 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the senile Ozzietard's troll****

....and much better air in here!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 04:38:42 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The OP's 2002 Renault clearly isnt.

The OP is a clinically insane bull****ter, just like you, senile Rodent!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:29 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:06:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:30:59 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:16:30 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 7:33:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

Correct, within reason and the physical limits of the battery. A battery
looks like an ideal voltage source connected in series with a low value
resistor.





Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?

By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.

The voltage regulator actually senses VOLTAGE, which is why it;s called
a voltage regulator.

No it doesn't. It keeps the voltage at the correct level for charging, which is 14.4V for fast charge and 13.8V for trickle charge. It senses a drop in current to tell when the battery is full.

No it doesn't what? Of course the voltage regulator SENSES VOLTAGE because
otherwise it obviously can't regulate it.

It senses voltage so it can keep it steady.

No **** sherlock.

Voltage does not change when the battery gets full,

Yet you were the one telling us that it does.

No. All I ever said anything remotely like that was the alternator should change the charging voltage when it knows the battery is full. 14.4V is a fast charge, 13.8V is a trickle charge.

the current draw changes.

It doesn't target CURRENT.
And this is why you keep asking about how the VR knows how much current
is going to the battery vs how much is going to the car. It doesn't.
It doesn't care. It targets VOLTAGE and that's why it's called a VOLTAGE
REGULATOR, not a current regulator. Good grief, this is explained all over
the internet, not hard to find.

How can the battery change the voltage when it's kept steady by the regulator?

Who said the battery changes any voltage?

You did, I told you it watches the current so it can tell the battery is full, and you claimed it could do this by just sensing voltage

Find a graph of a battery being charged. Once it draws less than the maximum current the charger can provide, it stays at precisely the same voltage for the rest of the charge, and the current gradually drops. The charger senses this current drop and changes the voltage to different levels to enter the three charging phases.

Please learn to quote properly, I wrote the above line, not you. It should have two indents. This is basic computing ffs.

Maybe a smart charger does, the typical auto charging system, which is what
you were asking about, from everything I've seen does not. And Clare a
retired auto mechanic just told you the same thing.

Well my car does, and it's 2002.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 03:07:05 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 2:03 am, TMS320 wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as
there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

It's also impossible to use it without having a remote (to the alternator) sensor. It's like my power company telling me if I'm using a kettle or a toaster.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:49:52 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 7:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 18:02:30 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

snip

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

I doubt it knows about everything, like how much power you're using from
the cigarette lighter socket etc. Easier to just measure the total load
in one go, than trying to add up precise currents it thinks the wipers
might be using etc.

It isn't concerned about *individual* loads. It looks at the *system
voltage* and operates from that.

Voltage gives you no information about the size of the load.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

The chemistry of the battery sees to that itself, but it's better for
the battery to lower the voltage from 14.4 to 13.8 when it's full. It's
not as easy as a lithium cell where you just give it 4.2V.

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 3:30:28 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:49:52 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 7:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 18:02:30 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

snip

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

I doubt it knows about everything, like how much power you're using from
the cigarette lighter socket etc. Easier to just measure the total load
in one go, than trying to add up precise currents it thinks the wipers
might be using etc.

It isn't concerned about *individual* loads. It looks at the *system
voltage* and operates from that.

Voltage gives you no information about the size of the load.

And the alternator/VR doesn't care about the size of the load, it's job
is to maintain a target SYSTEM VOLTAGE. That's why they call it a
VOLTAGE REGULATOR stupid.

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 3:29:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:29 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:06:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:30:59 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:16:30 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 7:33:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

Correct, within reason and the physical limits of the battery. A battery
looks like an ideal voltage source connected in series with a low value
resistor.





Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?

By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.

The voltage regulator actually senses VOLTAGE, which is why it;s called
a voltage regulator.

No it doesn't. It keeps the voltage at the correct level for charging, which is 14.4V for fast charge and 13.8V for trickle charge. It senses a drop in current to tell when the battery is full.

No it doesn't what? Of course the voltage regulator SENSES VOLTAGE because
otherwise it obviously can't regulate it.

It senses voltage so it can keep it steady.

No **** sherlock.

Voltage does not change when the battery gets full,

Yet you were the one telling us that it does.

No. All I ever said anything remotely like that was the alternator should change the charging voltage when it knows the battery is full. 14.4V is a fast charge, 13.8V is a trickle charge.

the current draw changes.

It doesn't target CURRENT.
And this is why you keep asking about how the VR knows how much current
is going to the battery vs how much is going to the car. It doesn't..
It doesn't care. It targets VOLTAGE and that's why it's called a VOLTAGE
REGULATOR, not a current regulator. Good grief, this is explained all over
the internet, not hard to find.

How can the battery change the voltage when it's kept steady by the regulator?

Who said the battery changes any voltage?

You did, I told you it watches the current so it can tell the battery is full, and you claimed it could do this by just sensing voltage

BS. I simply told you that the traditional alternator/vr that has been
used for half a century simply targets a system voltage and maintains it.
Many other, Xeno, Clare, MAko have told you the same thing, but you won't
listen. And I said there may be more modern ones that do more, so YOU
go find the info and show it to us, instead of wandering in the wilderness
with the Aussie troll and making things up.





Find a graph of a battery being charged. Once it draws less than the maximum current the charger can provide, it stays at precisely the same voltage for the rest of the charge, and the current gradually drops. The charger senses this current drop and changes the voltage to different levels to enter the three charging phases.

You don't need to do that to keep a car battery charged as evidenced, again,
by the traditional VRs that didn't do that.




Please learn to quote properly, I wrote the above line, not you. It should have two indents. This is basic computing ffs.

Go **** yourself. YOU go find what you claim exists and how it works.




Maybe a smart charger does, the typical auto charging system, which is what
you were asking about, from everything I've seen does not. And Clare a
retired auto mechanic just told you the same thing.

Well my car does, and it's 2002.

You have no ****ing idea what your car does or does not do. You saw a
voltage change which could be due to many things, including LOADS in the
car turning on and off.

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Basically all cars before say 2010, the alternator VOLTAGE is regulated to 13.4 to 14.5 volts and the battery draws as much current as it need to, to charge.
When the battery is fully charged it draws only a small current. The exact voltage the alternator is regulated to actually changes a little with temperature, up a little in cold down in hot. That battery university web site has a lot of good detail.

BUT,

I did hear that some newer cars have some weird mode where the computer sets the alternator to a lower voltage as a fuel saving measure. That may be what the poster was seeing.

What year was the car you saw this behavior?

m

I agree, both with how traditional VRs worked and that newer cars may
have something more advanced. What I disagree with is people making up
pure BS, speculation, and then asserting it as fact. That fool Kinsey
even dismisses the idea of supplying some cites or references. And also it's
obviously not essential to do a new method, because the traditional dumb
VRs worked for more than a half century with the same lead acid batteries.
There is no need to back off to trickle charging, etc.

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:13:17 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:25 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:25:04 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:29:26 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:41:22 AM UTC-4, Xeno wrote:
On 22/6/19 7:58 pm, Rod Speed wrote:


"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 22/6/19 9:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.

Nope.

The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the
charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery
and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the
battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a
bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter
only to prevent overloading the supply.

It actually specify the current being supplied.

The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the
battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's
actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench
supply.

Correction

Nope.

the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

+1
You are 100% correct.

You do realize who you are dealing with here, right? Here is some of
the other BS he posted and then just continued to lie about, refuse
to acknowledge it was all wrong:

How can one dope be wrong on so many things?



The 737 MCAS doesn't rely on just one AOA sensor (It does)

The FAA would never approve that design (They did)

[snip]

You've already posted all that ****e. Repeating yourself is a sign of illness.

No, arguing with the Aussie troll who has a track record of BS and lies
is the illness. Maybe you don't care about anyone's credibility and
will debate nuclear physics with the village idiot who lies about most
things. Do so at your own risk.

He may be an argumentative prick, but he does know a fair bit about a lot of things.

And you're the one that keeps going on and on about things he's said. You're trolling him, I'm arguing and discussing with him.

Feel free to get a room with the asshole. He's the troll, not me. Arguing
is exactly what the troll wants. There is nothing to argue about. Rod
made some specific claims, I asked for any references to back it up, he
has come up with NOTHING. Capiche?

What's this obsession with references? FFS grow up.

Yeah, better to just make stuff up on the fly, like you and Rod.
Now go **** yourself.

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:00:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:43:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:12:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads.

Just because YOU

It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

How about go **** yourself then?




added no loads doesn't mean the loads in the car are not changing.

And what would these imaginary loads be?

You're clearly clueless about the complexity of modern cars and
all the electrical loads.




I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

Given that it's typically a dumb, passive component device, that seems
unlikely. And if it's true, then there should be plenty of discussion
about it at online resources, yet so far, neither you nor Rod can
produce anything.

Why can't you believe the ECU monitors the battery?

I didn't say I can't believe it, I said if it's so, then show us the
references. And I said if they do it, I doubt they do it via using
the resistance of the battery cable, which is what Rod claimed.




I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.

Rod claims that they have an extra sensing wire at the battery terminal
and use the voltage there versus the voltage at the other end of the
cable, to determine the current. I seriously doubt that, for obvious
reasons involving the very large gauge cable and current of interest..

It could only be mV, but easy enough to sense with modern electronics. Or how about an amp clamp?

How about you stop speculating and show us some references?

I've told you how easy it would be. It would be illogical not to do that.. And no I'm not going to do your homework for you.

So, you'd rather be like Rod, speculate, BS, flap gums. Figures.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Basically all cars before say 2010, the alternator VOLTAGE is regulated
to 13.4 to 14.5 volts and the battery draws as much current as it need
to, to charge.
When the battery is fully charged it draws only a small current. The
exact voltage the alternator is regulated to actually changes a little
with temperature, up a little in cold down in hot. That battery
university web site has a lot of good detail.

BUT,

I did hear that some newer cars have some weird mode where the computer
sets the alternator to a lower voltage as a fuel saving measure. That
may be what the poster was seeing.

What year was the car you saw this behavior?

m

I agree, both with how traditional VRs worked and that newer cars may
have something more advanced. What I disagree with is people making up
pure BS, speculation, and then asserting it as fact. That fool Kinsey
even dismisses the idea of supplying some cites or references. And also
it's
obviously not essential to do a new method, because the traditional dumb
VRs worked for more than a half century with the same lead acid batteries.

Different lead acid batterys in fact.

There is no need to back off to trickle charging, etc.

But if the system deliberately charges more aggressively initially
so that the battery is more fully charged with start stop driving,
particularly with engines that now are stopped automatically
when the car is stopped at the lights etc, it may well be very
desirable to back off that charging when the battery is charged.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:57:24 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:00:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:43:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:12:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads.

Just because YOU

It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

How about go **** yourself then?

Are you trying to stoop to Rod's level?

added no loads doesn't mean the loads in the car are not changing.

And what would these imaginary loads be?

You're clearly clueless about the complexity of modern cars and
all the electrical loads.

Which don't change when it's sat idling in the driveway. Certainly not enough to overload an alternator.

I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

Given that it's typically a dumb, passive component device, that seems
unlikely. And if it's true, then there should be plenty of discussion
about it at online resources, yet so far, neither you nor Rod can
produce anything.

Why can't you believe the ECU monitors the battery?

I didn't say I can't believe it,

You've dismissed Rod's claim adamantly several times.

I said if it's so, then show us the references.

You're the opposite of a religious nut, you need everything proved. Grow up.

And I said if they do it, I doubt they do it via using
the resistance of the battery cable, which is what Rod claimed.

Why do you doubt this? It's the easiest thing to do. What voltage drop do you think you can get off one of those cables, considering the high amperages involved?

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.

Rod claims that they have an extra sensing wire at the battery terminal
and use the voltage there versus the voltage at the other end of the
cable, to determine the current. I seriously doubt that, for obvious
reasons involving the very large gauge cable and current of interest.

It could only be mV, but easy enough to sense with modern electronics. Or how about an amp clamp?

How about you stop speculating and show us some references?

I've told you how easy it would be. It would be illogical not to do that. And no I'm not going to do your homework for you.

So, you'd rather be like Rod, speculate, BS, flap gums. Figures.

I have no reason to believe he'd make it up.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:57:14 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:13:17 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:25 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:25:04 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:29:26 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:41:22 AM UTC-4, Xeno wrote:
On 22/6/19 7:58 pm, Rod Speed wrote:


"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 22/6/19 9:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.

Nope.

The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the
charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery
and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the
battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a
bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter
only to prevent overloading the supply.

It actually specify the current being supplied.

The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the
battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's
actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench
supply.

Correction

Nope.

the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

+1
You are 100% correct.

You do realize who you are dealing with here, right? Here is some of
the other BS he posted and then just continued to lie about, refuse
to acknowledge it was all wrong:

How can one dope be wrong on so many things?



The 737 MCAS doesn't rely on just one AOA sensor (It does)

The FAA would never approve that design (They did)

[snip]

You've already posted all that ****e. Repeating yourself is a sign of illness.

No, arguing with the Aussie troll who has a track record of BS and lies
is the illness. Maybe you don't care about anyone's credibility and
will debate nuclear physics with the village idiot who lies about most
things. Do so at your own risk.

He may be an argumentative prick, but he does know a fair bit about a lot of things.

And you're the one that keeps going on and on about things he's said. You're trolling him, I'm arguing and discussing with him.

Feel free to get a room with the asshole. He's the troll, not me. Arguing
is exactly what the troll wants. There is nothing to argue about. Rod
made some specific claims, I asked for any references to back it up, he
has come up with NOTHING. Capiche?

What's this obsession with references? FFS grow up.

Yeah, better to just make stuff up on the fly, like you and Rod.
Now go **** yourself.

Why would anyone make that up?

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:04:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


obviously not essential to do a new method, because the traditional dumb
VRs worked for more than a half century with the same lead acid batteries.

Different lead acid batterys in fact.

LOL is this auto-contradicting asshole for real?

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile Yankietard, blathered again:


Voltage gives you no information about the size of the load.

And the alternator/VR doesn't care about the size of the load, it's job
is to maintain a target SYSTEM VOLTAGE. That's why they call it a
VOLTAGE REGULATOR stupid.

Good Lord! For how LONG are you two brain dead idiots still going to flog
the some horse! It's been dead for a while already! ****ing stupid cretins!
tsk

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:57:14 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile Yankietard, blathered again:

FLUSH 144 !!! lines of the two prize idiots' endless bull**** unread

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile Yankietard, blathered again:

FLUSH another 186 !!! lines of the two endlessly driveling idiots'
never-ending bull**** unread

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:57:24 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile Yankietard, blathered again:


It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

How about go **** yourself then?

Why should he when he can have so much ****ing with YOU all along! VBG

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile Yankietard, blathered again:


What a total moron!

Oh, the IRONY! VBG

On 25/6/19 1:01 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:13:22 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 24/6/19 9:45 am, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:05:52 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 1:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:00:41 AM UTC-4, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.

Nonsense.Â* Cars used voltage regulators for better part of a century and
they are simple electronics which is well understood.Â* And, AFAIK,
that is STILL how it's done, all the FUD here notwithstanding.Â* Some
cars may have something more elaborate, but it's obviously not required
to keep the battery correctly charged, which was the OPs question about
charging.

No it wasnt, he asked about changing to a trickle charge when the battery
is fully charged.

Battery chargers do it automatically - if they are decent.
Alternators too do it automatically.
SOME chargers - and some vehicles that use the computer to control
charge, use a "3 step" algorythm which uses constant current to "bulk
charge" the battery to a certain level, then switch to constant
voltage untill output current drops below a certain point where it
switches to "float charge". Not COMMON on cars, but getting pretty

A car charging system is unlikely to ever really *need* a float charge
mode since it has to deal with other electrical system loads as well as
the needs of the battery. That and the type of use the car battery gets
adds a layer of complexity to it all that I can't see is really
warranted. A battery charger, on the other hand, has to deal only with
one load, the battery.

common on higher end chargers to prevent overcharging and gassing of
the battery when left on charge. The old service station type chargers
had a simple timer to accomplish this - and some of the later ones had
a combination - when charging voltage exceded a certain point it would
charge for anothe X number of minutes before shutting down.



Automotive charging systems that actually sense current are
EXCEDEINGLY RARE.

I've never seen one.



GM and Honda are examples of charging systems that use a device to
monitor the battery voltage and current flow.

GM uses a battery sense module on some applications, which is
typically mounted to one of the battery cables. The sensor module uses

My Toyota has one of those on the positive battery cable. It is an
inductive sensor.

a Hall Effect sensor, which provides a 128 HZ PWM signal to the BCM
(Body Control Module). The sensor stays powered up even when the key
is off, so the BCM can identify parasitic drain.

Honda applications use an electrical load detector (ELD), which is
typically located in the underhood fusebox. The function of the
electrical load detector is very similar to a battery sense module.

Yes, it is on the main current path to the electrical system. Due to its
location, it cannot sense starter current but that is no big deal since
that is not its purpose anyway.

The PCM supplies five volts to the electrical load detector. The
electrical load detector grounds the circuit, providing a voltage
signal between 0.3€“4.50 volts to the PCM. The higher the voltage, the
lower the charging system output, while a lower voltage indicates a
higher charging system output


GM and Ford use a different strategy, where the computer monitors
feild current (actually feild voltage, but the voltage across a fixed
feild resistance yeilds a current measuremnt and by computation
deduces what the output current is.

There are a lot of different computer controlled charging strategies out
there. I am not well up with them since I retired 18 years ago and lost
access to all the factory technical information I was once privy to.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 25/6/19 4:06 am, wrote:
Basically all cars before say 2010, the alternator VOLTAGE is regulated to 13.4 to 14.5 volts and the battery draws as much current as it need to, to charge.
When the battery is fully charged it draws only a small current. The exact voltage the alternator is regulated to actually changes a little with temperature, up a little in cold down in hot. That battery university web site has a lot of good detail.

BUT,

I did hear that some newer cars have some weird mode where the computer sets the alternator to a lower voltage as a fuel saving measure. That may be what the poster was seeing.

It is a fuel saving measure. Also, some systems have a 3 stage charging
system - charging, trickle and float. This is very beneficial when you
have two batteries with only one being a starter battery. A lot of 4
wheel drives for instance.

What year was the car you saw this behavior?

m





--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:56:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 3:29:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:42:29 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:06:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:22:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:30:59 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:16:30 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 7:33:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?

That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.

Nope.

Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

Correct, within reason and the physical limits of the battery. A battery
looks like an ideal voltage source connected in series with a low value
resistor.





Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.

Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.

No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?

By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.

The voltage regulator actually senses VOLTAGE, which is why it;s called
a voltage regulator.

No it doesn't. It keeps the voltage at the correct level for charging, which is 14.4V for fast charge and 13.8V for trickle charge. It senses a drop in current to tell when the battery is full.

No it doesn't what? Of course the voltage regulator SENSES VOLTAGE because
otherwise it obviously can't regulate it.

It senses voltage so it can keep it steady.

No **** sherlock.

Voltage does not change when the battery gets full,

Yet you were the one telling us that it does.

No. All I ever said anything remotely like that was the alternator should change the charging voltage when it knows the battery is full. 14.4V is a fast charge, 13.8V is a trickle charge.

the current draw changes.

It doesn't target CURRENT.
And this is why you keep asking about how the VR knows how much current
is going to the battery vs how much is going to the car. It doesn't.
It doesn't care. It targets VOLTAGE and that's why it's called a VOLTAGE
REGULATOR, not a current regulator. Good grief, this is explained all over
the internet, not hard to find.

How can the battery change the voltage when it's kept steady by the regulator?

Who said the battery changes any voltage?

You did, I told you it watches the current so it can tell the battery is full, and you claimed it could do this by just sensing voltage

BS. I simply told you that the traditional alternator/vr that has been
used for half a century simply targets a system voltage and maintains it.

Can't work, battery would boil over giving it 14.4V all the time.

Many other,

Are they all the same person?

Xeno, Clare, MAko

Never seen a post from "MAko".

have told you the same thing, but you won't
listen. And I said there may be more modern ones that do more, so YOU

Stop yelling. Do you actually speak like that, EMPHASIZING words for no reason?

go find the info and show it to us, instead of wandering in the wilderness
with the Aussie troll and making things up.

Unlike you I don't need proof, I just need an answer which makes sense.

Find a graph of a battery being charged. Once it draws less than the maximum current the charger can provide, it stays at precisely the same voltage for the rest of the charge, and the current gradually drops. The charger senses this current drop and changes the voltage to different levels to enter the three charging phases.

You don't need to do that to keep a car battery charged as evidenced, again,
by the traditional VRs that didn't do that.

You don't need it to keep it charged, but you do if you want to charge it quickly, for example on short runs.

Please learn to quote properly, I wrote the above line, not you. It should have two indents. This is basic computing ffs.

Go **** yourself.

Awww, is usenet too hard for you?

YOU

Stop yelling.

go find what you claim exists and how it works.

I didn't claim it, Rod did, do keep up at the back.

Maybe a smart charger does, the typical auto charging system, which is what
you were asking about, from everything I've seen does not. And Clare a
retired auto mechanic just told you the same thing.

Well my car does, and it's 2002.

You have no ****ing idea what your car does or does not do. You saw a
voltage change which could be due to many things, including LOADS in the
car turning on and off.

Nothing turned on and off. I started it and left it idling in my driveway. And since you claim the alternator maintains a stable voltage, that wouldn't change even if I did draw a load. In fact it doesn't even if I switch on all the lights, the heaters, etc.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:46:39 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 7:26 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:17:29 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:55:31 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:48:01 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator
or charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V
forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to
charge the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If
the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it
know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery
is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator There is
nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a **** about the
lights. The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up. When current drops off it is either because
there is less load or because the battery is taking less of a charge.
That is when the voltage ramps down.
If current gets really low, like the battery is charged and there is
not much load they hit the bottom of the range ... essentially a
trickle charger that is also running the radio and heater fan.

Take this situation: You start your car with the battery 3/4s full.
The alternator provides a high voltage and charges it quickly. It's
dark and cold, you have demisters, lights, etc on. How does the
alternator know when the battery is full? As current will continue
to be taken from it to power all those loads.

As for a smart charger, usually the voltage is all they need to know.
When the voltage drop across the battery starts to rise. it indicates
the battery is charging and at a certain point they either turn off or
turn to trickle.
Different batteries have different "fully charged" voltage levels so
they usually have a switch for different types . (deep cycle, AGM etc)

I guess charging a car battery with a charger plugged into the house
won't work if you have a load in the car like lights (or in my case a
faulty alarm). The charger will think the battery is still drawing a
fair current and isn't full, when in fact it's the load eating it up.

Plug in chargers are voltage regulated so that load would pull the
voltage down and the charger would try to bring it up. Once the
battery was charged the charger would either see a higher voltage and
ramp down or it would stay there at. what it could drive.

No, if you charge a battery with no load, the charger will sit at 14.4V
(provided it can give enough current to do that) until the battery drew
little current, then it would back off to 13.8V.

But with a load, the charger thinks the battery is still charging, when
in fact it's the load taking that current. So it will stay at 14.4V
forever and **** the battery.

What do you think is happening when you have a fully charged battery but
have the AC on, the headlights on, the driving lights on,

The what lights?

the seat warmer on, etc, etc.
The *internal resistance* of the battery will be high when it is fully
charged

Really? How does it start your car then?

so most current will flow to the *other loads*.

As far as the alternator is concerned, a lot of current is going out of the alternator. It doesn't know it's to loads, it could be trying to charge a very flat battery. The first requires 13.8V, the second 14.4V.

That is
probably a good reason to turn all that crap off when you are charging
a battery off line

I don't have anything deliberately loading it.

and you might want to take the negative lead to the
car loose if you have too much residual load.

Too much hassle. Anyway if I was going to do that, which I used to, I
wouldn't even need a charger as the battery would never go flat.

Depends on the car. Some cars have a lot of parasitic loading, some have
minimal parasitic loading, very few current cars have no parasitic loading.

Mine is absurd, it can make the battery go from full to unable to start (and that's a new battery) overnight. There's clearly a fault, presumably with the alarm, as it will do it with all the fuses taken out.

Batteries lose charge even if nothing is connected to them. It's called
*self-discharge* and you can educate yourself here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge

Irrelevant, I use my car every 3 days at the least

It's why people put their batteries on a trickle or float charger when
in storage and not being used.

More education here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_voltage

Maybe you could figure
out what was killing the battery in the first place then.

I know it's the alarm, as it still does it with every damn fuse pulled
out. The alarm is hidden away and difficult to disconnect, to stop
thieves doing so.

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:20:37 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
full, and you claimed it could do this by just sensing voltage

BS. I simply told you that the traditional alternator/vr that has been
used for half a century simply targets a system voltage and maintains it.

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 16:08:28 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:20:37 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
full, and you claimed it could do this by just sensing voltage

BS. I simply told you that the traditional alternator/vr that has been
used for half a century simply targets a system voltage and maintains it.

Can't work, battery would boil over giving it 14.4V all the time.

Who said it had to be 14.4, ****wit?

Only way to charge it at a decent rate. Otherwise if you started your car you'd take 10 minutes of driving to recover the lost power to the starter.

Many other,

Are they all the same person?

Xeno, Clare, MAko

Never seen a post from "MAko".

have told you the same thing, but you won't
listen. And I said there may be more modern ones that do more, so YOU

Stop yelling. Do you actually speak like that, EMPHASIZING words for no reason?

go find the info and show it to us, instead of wandering in the wilderness
with the Aussie troll and making things up.

Unlike you I don't need proof, I just need an answer which makes sense.

That's why you're a ****wit, so just blindly follow Rod, you got your
answer, so what's the problem?

You, spouting bull****.

Find a graph of a battery being charged. Once it draws less than the maximum current the charger can provide, it stays at precisely the same voltage for the rest of the charge, and the current gradually drops. The charger senses this current drop and changes the voltage to different levels to enter the three charging phases.

You don't need to do that to keep a car battery charged as evidenced, again,
by the traditional VRs that didn't do that.

You don't need it to keep it charged,

True, only sensible people need to keep their car batteries charged,
****wits don't.

Reread what I wrote. I did not write "You don't need to keep it charged,"

but you do if you want to charge it quickly, for example on short runs.

Please learn to quote properly, I wrote the above line, not you. It should have two indents. This is basic computing ffs.

Go **** yourself.

Awww, is usenet too hard for you?

YOU

Stop yelling.

go find what you claim exists and how it works.

I didn't claim it, Rod did, do keep up at the back.

But YOU

STOP randomly CAPITALISING you SILLY ****wit!

accepted it, without any references! And then like a true
****wit, you dismissed any need for references!

If you need everything everyone says to you proved, you'd never get anything achieved in life.

Maybe a smart charger does, the typical auto charging system, which is what
you were asking about, from everything I've seen does not. And Clare a
retired auto mechanic just told you the same thing.

Well my car does, and it's 2002.

You have no ****ing idea what your car does or does not do. You saw a
voltage change which could be due to many things, including LOADS in the
car turning on and off.

Nothing turned on and off. I started it and left it idling in my driveway.

Modern cars have all kinds of loads ****wit. For example, how about
heaters in the O2 sensors that power up at starting, then later turn
off? How about air injection pumps? Fans? Coolant pumps for the
heater core?

Which would have no effect as the alternator can easily power those without dropping voltage

And since you claim the alternator maintains a stable voltage, that wouldn't change even if I did draw a load. In fact it doesn't even if I switch on all the lights, the heaters, etc.

I wrote that, not you, again you can't quote for peanuts.

I didn't claim all alternators maintain a fixed voltage. I specifically
said that some modern cars may use more advanced systems, that they might
want to do that to conserve energy and squeeze a tiny bit more MPG out.

Ah so now you're siding with Rod.

Do you even read what I post? What I said was that the typical dumb
alternator/VR that has been used for over half a century was not smart,
didn't measure the current going into the battery, just targeted a
fixed voltage and to keep the battery charged over it's normal
life, that has obviously been sufficient. Capiche?

But have not given any proof it's still like that. And ffs speak English not Spanish. It's "understand".

BTW, why can't you trim posts?

Because I don't need to, I own a wheelmouse.

And since only you and me are in this conversation, you are equally guilty of not trimming.

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 11:11:16 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 15:35:18 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 8:58:25 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:55:33 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 4:06:55 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:57:24 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:00:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:43:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:12:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads.

Just because YOU

It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

How about go **** yourself then?

Are you trying to stoop to Rod's level?

You;re his butt buddy, you're the one here defending him, now you
say that?

Why do you think it has to be one or the other? He's irritating and I've killfiled him a few times, but he's the only one who answered my question in this thread.

He answered it with speculation stated as fact.

He gave a plausible answer

But then you joined him when you eschewed references for claims, so you two can wallow in your own BS.

I proved he was correct by testing my own car.

added no loads doesn't mean the loads in the car are not changing.

And what would these imaginary loads be?

You're clearly clueless about the complexity of modern cars and
all the electrical loads.

Which don't change when it's sat idling in the driveway. Certainly not enough to overload an alternator.

Again, another diversion and obfuscation. I didn't say anything about
overloading anything. I simply said that the voltage changing at the
battery could be loads in the car changing.

The voltage is fixed by the alternator unless it's overloaded and can't provide the charging voltage.

No **** Sherlock. Any other unnecessary obfuscation you want to add in?
You were asking about how an alternator normally charges a battery.

Just up there, you repeated "I simply said that the voltage changing at the battery could be loads in the car changing."

I refuted that by saying the alternator fixes the voltage.

It fixes it, keeps it close to a target voltage, that doesn't mean
that the voltage can't change by a fraction of a volt due to loads.



Not too bright are you?

A lot brighter than you, who prefers the flapping gums of Rod the troll
and dismisses references as unnecessary.





I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

Given that it's typically a dumb, passive component device, that seems
unlikely. And if it's true, then there should be plenty of discussion
about it at online resources, yet so far, neither you nor Rod can
produce anything.

Why can't you believe the ECU monitors the battery?

I didn't say I can't believe it,

You've dismissed Rod's claim adamantly several times.

I said his claim that they use the resistance of the battery cable
to measure current flow is highly doubtful for obvious reasons.
Someone else had to explain that to you.

Nobody has explained it. A wire has resistance, it has a voltage drop, very easy to measure.

As I and the the other poster told you, try using Ohm's Law.

Which is precisely what is used to measure the current in a wire by voltage drop.

Again, run the numbers, ****wit.





And if that's what they
do, use the battery cable to measure current, then why don't you
or your butt buddy show us some REFERENCES? Instead of just pulling
things out of your ass?

What is this obsession of proof you have? Are you a lawyer or something?

No, just someone who values FACTS and the truth and doesn't like ****wits
that SPECULATE and then state that as fact.

Stop ****ing shouting. Again, I don't need proof of what everyone tells me. I decide for myself if it's believable.

Sure, because you're a ****wit that listens to Rod who has a reputation
for BS and you dismiss the need for any reference. The voltage change
you claim you saw was due to fairies from Mars. See how that works?




I said if it's so, then show us the references.

You're the opposite of a religious nut, you need everything proved. Grow up.

Go **** yourself. It's quite obvious you're beyond clueless.

You have not explained how my car behaves, Rod has. You lose.

A fairy from Mars caused the change you saw. No need for references.
Now I've explained it too. See how that works?

I can tell when someone is making **** up. Unfortunately 50% of the population can't so still believes in god.

Sure you can, ROFL.





I gave you a long list of things Rod "explained" here, all BS and wrong..

I'm not interested in your stalking.

So, why are you still here? Rod gave you his BS answer, you accepted it.





And I said if they do it, I doubt they do it via using
the resistance of the battery cable, which is what Rod claimed.

Why do you doubt this? It's the easiest thing to do. What voltage drop do you think you can get off one of those cables, considering the high amperages involved?

Why are you adamant about this, when you have ZERO to show that it's
done? There are obvious reasons why it;s not likely. Try Ohms's Law.

Ohm's law (which I've just spelled correctly, there is no Mr Ohms) is precisely why it works. If you connect a 12V source at one end of a thick cable, and run a 50 amp load at the other end, you'll only get 11.5V at the other end. I know, I've installed 6kW car stereos. Voltage drop is a problem, especially on the peak of the amp's consumption with music which has loud beats.

Again, one more time, do the numbers for a battery cable, you might
learn something, but in your case, it's highly doubtful.

I have a cheap multimeter here that can detect 1mV....

Again, if you just applied Ohm's LAw, you'd see that resolution isn't
sufficient, ****wit. And even if it was, how logical is it to try
to measure down to a milivolt in a car? A car where loads are constantly
switching? When either you or Rod have a reference that says auto
manufacturers use the battery cable resistance to measure voltage,
let us know. Until then, **** off. BTW, still can't trim posts?